Ultra Discussion Thread

DogSlySmile

How do you know you are ready for a 24 hour run?

I've done long runs before, I wasnt running for time but in the past couple of years I've done runs that have lasted 19, 20 and 22 hours. Now, they were hilly ultras with spectacular views, constantly changing terrain and checkpoints throughout which helped to break up the runs mentally.

But I imagine running 24 hours around a park is a completely different beast.

What steps do you take towards doing a 24 hour? Start with a 100k/100m on road or 12 hour run?

TFBubendorfer

DogSlySmile wrote: »

How do you know you are ready for a 24 hour run?

I've done long runs before, I wasnt running for time but in the past couple of years I've done runs that have lasted 19, 20 and 22 hours. Now, they were hilly ultras with spectacular views, constantly changing terrain and checkpoints throughout which helped to break up the runs mentally.

But I imagine running 24 hours around a park is a completely different beast.

What steps do you take towards doing a 24 hour? Start with a 100k/100m on road or 12 hour run?

A few years ago Enduro answered the same question by stating that there is no point in working your way up the distances as the 24 hrs is such a different event.

As it happens, I took that advice to heart and ran my first 24 hrs race, never having gone past 50 miles before, and walked home with a National silver medal. There is just no way of telling beforehand - just give it a go.

I find it completely impossible to predict how someone will do in a 24 hrs race. Last year in Belfast I was following three runners who made their debut over the distance (Grellan, Andrew and Thomas Klimas) and I reckoned all of them had a chance of doing really well. Unfortunately, all of them had disappointing races, to a varying degree. On the other hand, Amy Masner ran 217 km last month to qualify for the next championships, something I would not have thought possible.

kit3

As a matter of interest, how old is the 24 hr race as an event ? Has it a long history or is it a recent thing ?

TFBubendorfer

kit3 wrote: »

As a matter of interest, how old is the 24 hr race as an event ? Has it a long history or is it a recent thing ?

Excellent question and I'd love to know more about it as well. I know they had plenty of 6-day races in the later 1800s so you'd expect there was the odd 24 hours race there as well but not even google seems to be able to provide me with an answer

Stablemaster

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

A few years ago Enduro answered the same question by stating that there is no point in working your way up the distances as the 24 hrs is such a different event.

As it happens, I took that advice to heart and ran my first 24 hrs race, never having gone past 50 miles before, and walked home with a National silver medal. There is just no way of telling beforehand - just give it a go.

I find it completely impossible to predict how someone will do in a 24 hrs race. Last year in Belfast I was following three runners who made their debut over the distance (Grellan, Andrew and Thomas Klimas) and I reckoned all of them had a chance of doing really well. Unfortunately, all of them had disappointing races, to a varying degree. On the other hand, Amy Masner ran 217 km last month to qualify for the next championships, something I would not have thought possible.

I will be excellent at this distance.

Chivito550

Enduro wrote: »

That's the qualification to be considered to be picked for the Irish team, not for the WC itself. It's set by AAI (inherited from Ultrarunning Ireland). It was set at that mark as it's the IAU's B standard for grant funding of athlete participation in championship events (IAU being the international governing body for ultrarunning). National ultrarunning governing bodies are free to set their own criteria for picking teams. The UK standard is 239km AFAIK, for example. They have a much bigger pool to choose from though, lucky them!

To get into the WC you just need to be sent by your NGB.

It would also help if you dug in a bit more to understand why the WR of 305km is such an amazing distance. Yiannis Kouros had the exceptionalism of Bob Beamon and the consistancy of Ed Moses. Look at the gap to the next best distance by someone other than Yiannis. Re-run you're calcs on the sencond best athletes and see how it looks.

Let's just assume for a moment that Yiannis Kouris' WR of 304km is something akin to Bob Beamon's Long Jump in 1968 in terms of quality and as an outlier, just for argument's sake. The men's 'A' Standard is 240km which is 79% of Kouris's WR. The B Standard of 220km is 72.3%. Stack that up against Beamon's Long Jump of 8.90m, the Long Jump Equivalents of the Men's A and B standards in 24hr would be 7.03m (A) and 6.44m (B). At what point in history would these jumps have qualified you for an International LJ event? Never. The B standard wouldn't even get you into a women's event. These 24h qualification standards are considerably soft.

Murph_D

I've no experience of running beyond marathon distance so can only approach this question from a theoretical point of view. But I think the whole point of outliers is that they are so exceptional that they must be discounted rather than used as a benchmark in this way. How does the qualifying standard stack up against the non-outlier, that's the point made earlier in the thread.

TFBubendorfer

Chivito550 wrote: »

Let's just assume for a moment that Yiannis Kouris' WR of 304km is something akin to Bob Beamon's Long Jump in 1968 in terms of quality and as an outlier, just for argument's sake. The men's 'A' Standard is 240km which is 79% of Kouris's WR. The B Standard of 220km is 72.3%. Stack that up against Beamon's Long Jump of 8.90m, the Long Jump Equivalents of the Men's A and B standards in 24hr would be 7.03m (A) and 6.44m (B). At what point in history would these jumps have qualified you for an International LJ event? Never. The B standard wouldn't even get you into a women's event. These 24h qualification standards are considerably soft.

Like I said earlier:

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

The international standard for 24 hrs is easier than for many other distances, that is certainly true. The reason for that is that you can fit a lot more runners onto a mile or 2k loop than you can fit into a, say, 1500 on a track.

runnter

Murph while the men's WR might be an outlier it is not THAT much of an outlier.

The women's WR is I believe about 255km which is not an outlier as other women regularly get close to it.

This distance is considerably further than the men's A standard and approximately 15% better than the men's B standard. You won't find standards as soft as that in any other discipline in athletics. To think otherwise is delusional.

lukeeman

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

I ran a 100 miler a few years ago after a decent bank of training and having run a marathon almost every second week for a couple of years.

Just actually finishing it was a massive mental and physical achievement. I couldn't believe how hard it was, if it wasn't for the fact that it was also a significant personal milestone I'd have pulled the plug.

Beforehand I was calculating the respective paces I'd need to run to hit my targets, after about 15 hours I didn't give a sh1t about paces or targets, I was just in some primeval survival mode.

Don't think I've the mental strength to ever do it again, Ultra lads are just wired differently!

Hoping to get a 7 mile long run done on Sunday

TbL

You will do it again, after your sub 3.

grizzlynorris

Well now Mr Burbenbrager
Walked home with a Silver Medal??
Get down off whatever high horse you have mounted and eat some humble pie.

Amy Masner is a very strong Athlete and your surprise of how far she ran is a sign of your ignorance of her performances.

Dingle 1st Place x 2
Connemara Ultra 1st Place
Portumna 100km 1st Place
Tralee 100km 2nd Place
Causeway Coast 2nd Place
Current 12 Hour Female Irish Record.

Why would Amy not perform well in a 24 Hour?

Also IMO you should not have accepted the Irish Silver Medal if you do not plan to represent Ireland.

Amy has made it clear of her intention to run for Ireland.
She will probably run a lot further in the future and could well be offered a place on the team for USA but has said she will be wearing a green jersey in the World Champs.

Show the lady some respect.

Just my humble opinion.

TFBubendorfer

grizzlynorris wrote: »

Well now Mr Burbenbrager
Walked home with a Silver Medal??
Get down off whatever high horse you have mounted and eat some humble pie.

Amy Masner is a very strong Athlete and your surprise of how far she ran is a sign of your ignorance of her performances.

Dingle 1st Place x 2
Connemara Ultra 1st Place
Portumna 100km 1st Place
Tralee 100km 2nd Place
Causeway Coast 2nd Place
Current 12 Hour Female Irish Record.

Why would Amy not perform well in a 24 Hour?

To start with, I have shown Amy all respect due, personally.

Her performance in the 24hrs was amazing - her 100k time in the races you mentioned was close to 10 hours, though I expect she would smash that time now. It's exceedingly rare that a 10-hour 100k runner runs 217 k in a 24 hours race. That's not me being ignorant, that's her exceeding expectations.

Also IMO you should not have accepted the Irish Silver Medal if you do not plan to represent Ireland.

I came second in a national championship. I got a silver medal for it.
At the time I had no idea that I would ever reach the qualifying criteria for a championship, so the question if I would ever represent Ireland did not arise at the time. Why should I not have accepted a medal?

In case you're wondering, I very much considered running for Ireland. But politics being politics meant I would have had to return my Austrian passport to get an Irish one, and to renounce my nationality for a race seemed a step too far.

Show the lady some respect.

I have shown Amy every respect. I mentioned her as a massive positive result. How can that possibly be a lack of respect?

Just my humble opinion.

There is nothing humble about a personal attack. I find your behaviour extremely disappointing.

average_runner

grizzlynorris wrote: »

Well now Mr Burbenbrager
Walked home with a Silver Medal??
Get down off whatever high horse you have mounted and eat some humble pie.

Amy Masner is a very strong Athlete and your surprise of how far she ran is a sign of your ignorance of her performances.i

Dingle 1st Place x 2
Connemara Ultra 1st Place
Portumna 100km 1st Place
Tralee 100km 2nd Place
Causeway Coast 2nd Place
Current 12 Hour Female Irish Record.

Why would Amy not perform well in a 24 Hour?

Also IMO you should not have accepted the Irish Silver Medal if you do not plan to represent Ireland.

Amy has made it clear of her intention to run for Ireland.
She will probably run a lot further in the future and could well be offered a place on the team for USA but has said she will be wearing a green jersey in the World Champs.

Show the lady some respect.

Just my humble opinion.

He finished second in the nationals, so he damn right deserves the medal. You don't know the reason why he couldn't go but he has every right to give the race he runs the best effort.

A good few indoor masters wouldn't go to the European master indoors after the nationals and they have the qualifying times.

Chivito550

average_runner wrote: »

He finished second in the nationals, so he damn right deserves the medal. You don't know the reason why he couldn't go but he has every right to give the race he runs the best effort.

A good few indoor masters wouldn't go to the European master indoors after the nationals and they have the qualifying times.

There is no qualification standards for masters championships. Literally anyone can go if they pay for it.

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

There is no qualification standards for masters championships. Literally anyone can go if they pay for it.

Ah ok, just knew a few that won their event and didn't go.

TFBubendorfer

I'm sure plenty of you will find the following completely inappropriate.

I have a psychological condition (actually I'm only borderline). It actually has certain advantages, plenty of people in my line of work have it and I'm sure my success in ultra running has a lot to do with it (which ties in with TbL's assessment that ultra runners are wired differently) but it means I lack a certain "let's not say that as it could be misinterpreted" filter.

Three times in the last few months I have received some personal abuse because of something I posted on social media, twice from people I thought were my friends, which really hurts.

I never set out to boast and I certainly never set out to diss someone, and if you think I do then it's because you're reading something in my post that was not intended to be there.

I'm not looking for sympathy, I can function perfectly fine. But I would really like the abuse to stop. There are real people behind those posts here, and receiving personal abuse hurts!

Dubgal72

TFB, fwiw, you have my fullest support and thank you for your honesty. I have never - including in this thread - read any comment of yours which I found unacceptable in any form. Quite the opposite in fact.

However, I did feel very uncomfortable reading a post (here) directed at you and regret not responding to it. I felt it was unnecessarily aggressive and well, just unnecessary.

All the best and again thank you for highlighting the fact that there are people and emotions behind the devices and fonts.

Chivito550

The nationality post was way below the belt. I know that no matter how long I stayed in Australia and no matter how involved I would be in athletics down there (very involved), I'd never in a million years compete for Australia over Ireland. You don't need to have citizenship of a country to win national medals from my experience here and in Australia. Residency and being a member of an Irish club are all that are, and all that should be, required. Bringing in passport rules is pathetic IMO. I wouldn't in the slightest feel bad for representing Austria over Ireland. Why shouldn't you after all!

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

The nationality post was way below the belt. I know that no matter how long I stayed in Australia and no matter how involved I would be in athletics down there (very involved), I'd never in a million years compete for Australia over Ireland. You don't need to have citizenship of a country to win national medals from my experience here and in Australia. Residency and being a member of an Irish club are all that are, and all that should be, required. Bringing in passport rules is pathetic IMO. I wouldn't in the slightest feel bad for representing Austria over Ireland. Why shouldn't you after all!

Home is home, even though I have my own family home in Dublin, when I go down to Wexford to visit my Dad, I will always say, "I am going home"

Djoucer

Looks like Scott Jurek et al have decided to give the Wicklow Round a miss this time round.

Posted some great pics from Wicklow and Kerry here:

https://www.instagram.com/thatdakotajones/
https://www.instagram.com/scottjurek/?hl=en
https://www.instagram.com/rickeygates/?hl=en


And for those worried that Irish mountains aren't as gnarly as the rest of Europe and the World, Jurek on Carrauntoohil yesterday.

"It may only be 3,406 feet (1,038 m), but Carrauntoohil packs a punch! Ireland's highest peak is just as burly as the summits in the Rockies, Sierras or Appalachians (2,800 feet in a couple miles). Not to mention weather that makes you feel like you're climbing a real mountain!"

That said, judging by the photos of them waist deep in bog, they may have decided that the round was a bit more challenging than expected. They did tag #wicklowround in some of the pics, so presumably it was on the radar.

Clearlier

Thanks for saying it TFB. It seems that I'm not the only one who was bemused by and felt uncomfortable about the post directed towards you mentioning nationality and other things. In fact I spent a fair portion of my run yesterday considering how I should respond. In the end I decided on nothing as I felt that your response was measured and appropriate. I regret that now and your post is a timely reminder that just because someone can handle something well doesn't mean that it hasn't hurt them.

Stablemaster

May we go back on topic?

Enduro

Stablemaster wrote: »

May we go back on topic?

You were saying that you're brilliant. When are you going to show us all how awesome you are?

Stablemaster

Enduro wrote: »

You were saying that you're brilliant. When are you going to show us all how awesome you are?

2017 24 hour world championships

Enduro

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I'm sure plenty of you will find the following completely inappropriate.

I have a psychological condition (actually I'm only borderline). It actually has certain advantages, plenty of people in my line of work have it and I'm sure my success in ultra running has a lot to do with it (which ties in with TbL's assessment that ultra runners are wired differently) but it means I lack a certain "let's not say that as it could be misinterpreted" filter.

Three times in the last few months I have received some personal abuse because of something I posted on social media, twice from people I thought were my friends, which really hurts.

I never set out to boast and I certainly never set out to diss someone, and if you think I do then it's because you're reading something in my post that was not intended to be there.

I'm not looking for sympathy, I can function perfectly fine. But I would really like the abuse to stop. There are real people behind those posts here, and receiving personal abuse hurts!

I thought your post was perfectly rational and reasonable. The response to it didn't share those characteristics. I also think that your decsion to declare for Austria was the more difficult of the two options, so kudos for that.

The simple fact of the matter is that when it comes to 24 hour running you're a world class athlete, literally. Your times and results do the talking. It's not boasting to stand over those results. They speak for themselves. There are plenty of people trying to elevate much less impressive runs into something worthy, and we have seen examples of this on this thread. If anything you display enormous modesty in comparison.

Enduro

Stablemaster wrote: »

2017 24 hour world championships

To get to the world championships you need to represent a country. Which one will are you intending to qualify for?

Stablemaster

Enduro wrote: »

I thought your post was perfectly rational and reasonable. The response to it didn't share those characteristics. I also think that your decsion to declare for Austria was the more difficult of the two options, so kudos for that.

The simple fact of the matter is that when it comes to 24 hour running you're a world class athlete, literally. Your times and results do the talking. It's not boasting to stand over those results. They speak for themselves. There are plenty of people trying to elevate much less impressive runs into something worthy, and we have seen examples of this on this thread. If anything you display enormous modesty in comparison.

Agree with Enduro's thoughts here. Thomas is certainly world class. I plan to show you all what true world class is in 2017 though. Thank you

Stablemaster

Enduro if you would like some training tips I have a group on Strava pm me for details

Enduro

Chivito550 wrote: »

Let's just assume for a moment that Yiannis Kouris' WR of 304km is something akin to Bob Beamon's Long Jump in 1968 in terms of quality and as an outlier, just for argument's sake. The men's 'A' Standard is 240km which is 79% of Kouris's WR. The B Standard of 220km is 72.3%. Stack that up against Beamon's Long Jump of 8.90m, the Long Jump Equivalents of the Men's A and B standards in 24hr would be 7.03m (A) and 6.44m (B). At what point in history would these jumps have qualified you for an International LJ event? Never. The B standard wouldn't even get you into a women's event. These 24h qualification standards are considerably soft.

I think you need to re-read what the 24 A and B standards are. They are standards for funding athletes who compete at the world champs. In simpler terms, they determine how much cash the IAU will hand over to the NGB to financially assist the NGB in sending athletes to the championship. They are NOT international qualifications standards.

However in Ireland we have chosen to use the B standards as our own qualification standards. The idea behind this is that (1) it has some meaning and relevance as an international standard, even if it isn't an actual qualification standard in and of itself and (2) they happen to be set at a level that would seem to suit Irish ultrarunning well.

Before they were brought in there was no standard. We now have a well defined standard which is broadly known, and gives anyone interested a target to aim for. Unfortunately ultrarunning tends to attract a lot of people who think they just need to turn up and they'll be handed and Irish vest.

It would seem that the standard is set at a pretty good level. We've yet to face an issue of having more people qualified than there are places on the team, but we are still have some athletes who can achieve the standard. So it would seem that the standard on the ground in reality is less soft than the current olympic marathon standard, from a usefulness point of view in an Irish context.

Enduro

DogSlySmile wrote: »

How do you know you are ready for a 24 hour run?

I've done long runs before, I wasnt running for time but in the past couple of years I've done runs that have lasted 19, 20 and 22 hours. Now, they were hilly ultras with spectacular views, constantly changing terrain and checkpoints throughout which helped to break up the runs mentally.

But I imagine running 24 hours around a park is a completely different beast.

What steps do you take towards doing a 24 hour? Start with a 100k/100m on road or 12 hour run?

I'm just gonna re-iterate what Thomas said. By fare the best thing you can do to towards doing a 24 hour race is to go out and give one a go. You'll learn more from doing one (no matter how well or badly) than from any amount of theorising or running shorter races.

Mentally there are lots of tricks that people use to get through 24 hours. Examples include: Dividing the race into small blocks (if there are directions changes these can be very useful), having lots of converstations with people, Only think about how much is left once your counting "home" from 12 hours down. Or do a 6 day race so that 24 hours seems nice and short