Ultra Discussion Thread

TFBubendorfer

Chivito550 wrote: »

I agree there will be far more DNFs than in a 400m. But I'd also guess that the strongest runners are less likely to DNF than the weakest. In any case, if we assume the DNFs are reasonably spread out throughout the field (equal chance that a strong athlete will DNF as a weak one will) then being 26% off the winning time will still have you comfortably mid pack, if there were no DNFs at all.

I don't really want to get involved personally, for lack of time for a start, though I find it a very interesting discussion. The above, however, is definitely incorrect.

The top ultra runners regularly show the highest numbers of DNFs. Many of them stop a race when it's not going to plan to keep themselves fresh for another go instead of taking months of recovery time, which is required even after a disappointing effort.

Middle-of-the-field runners are more likely to toughen it out no matter what. DNFs are not spread out evenly.

ThisRegard

Chivito550 wrote: »

I wouldn’t even classify Fionnuala Britton McCormack as world class.

By that logic there's therefore no European cross country runners that are world class? She's world class in her specialised events.

Chivito550

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I don't really want to get involved personally, for lack of time for a start, though I find it a very interesting discussion. The above, however, is definitely incorrect.

The top ultra runners regularly show the highest numbers of DNFs. Many of them stop a race when it's not going to plan to keep themselves fresh for another go instead of taking months of recovery time, which is required even after a disappointing effort.

Middle-of-the-field runners are more likely to toughen it out no matter what. DNFs are not spread out evenly.

Fair point. I'll take your word for it.

Though you could argue in track events that if athletes aren't at their best they won't even bother showing up. Bolt is a real example of this (and it's an attitude I hate, but it is prevalent in athletics, even at club level).

I've noticed in the results of the 2014 100km that some countries had 4 or 5 athletes in the men's race who finished (so not including any more they may have had entered). Is there a restriction of how many can compete for each country? In track races it's 3 per nation, so if the ultra events followed this then the depth would be even lower again.

Chivito550

ThisRegard wrote: »

By that logic there's therefore no European cross country runners that are world class? She's world class in her specialised events.

14th in World Cross country? Borderline really. Perhaps she has a case. But I always see cross-country as a build up to track or marathon (where you are really judged). Fionnuala has even said so herself after her second Euro title.

ThisRegard

Yeah, fair enough, but she's always placed well in the European championships, and her first marathon was a respectable 10th in 2:30 or so. Maybe she just has no interest in track at the moment and as she doesn't run it, she can't be judged on it.

Chivito550

ThisRegard wrote: »

Yeah, fair enough, but she's always placed well in the European championships, and her first marathon was a respectable 10th in 2:30 or so. Maybe she just has no interest in track at the moment and as she doesn't run it, she can't be judged on it.

Her European Indoor bronze in 2013 over 3000m, which is very short for her, is probably what impressed me most. She showed a great finishing kick that day, silencing the critics (myself included) that she didn't have any sort of change in gears.

Yeh she has performed decently at European Championships on the track. 4th place in the soft Olympic Year 2012 Championships, and 8th and 10th in 2014 in 10000m and Marathon. These really are only European class performances though. She finished 16th in the 10000m in London Olympics which is a good placing. Not world class though. Hopefully she can better it in Rio. I wonder if she will double up. Anyway a bit off topic here. If she jumped up to ultras she'd be a legend though!

Enduro

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I don't really want to get involved personally, for lack of time for a start, though I find it a very interesting discussion. The above, however, is definitely incorrect.

The top ultra runners regularly show the highest numbers of DNFs. Many of them stop a race when it's not going to plan to keep themselves fresh for another go instead of taking months of recovery time, which is required even after a disappointing effort.

Middle-of-the-field runners are more likely to toughen it out no matter what. DNFs are not spread out evenly.

Yup, I was going to reply saying the pattern is probably U shaped, an upside down bell curve. The really poorly prepared lads (and lassies) will be prone to DNF, same as every other distance. The mid-pack will have put a huge emphasis on putting in the required training with their primary goal being to finish at all costs, and will pull out all the stops to do so, but also not risk a DNF by pushing too hard. The top end lads (and lassies) will be all about the performance and the result. A poor performance/result but still finishing doesn't mean much to them, so they will take the big risks to "red-line" their performance to the max, taking on board the inherent big risk of a DNF as a result. There are many factors that increase the risk of DNF as distances get longer.

Funnilly enough Chivito, I think the other end of the extreme of sprinting possibly is similar. Would I be correct in thinking you'd be more likely to see a top end sprinter pull up mid-race because they've twanged something than you would a top end middle distance runner. The sprinters would obviously be pushing aspects of the body more than even the top middle distance runners, running literally as fast as the human body is capable of.

Chivito550

Enduro wrote: »

Yup, I was going to reply saying the pattern is probably U shaped, an upside down bell curve. The really poorly prepared lads (and lassies) will be prone to DNF, same as every other distance. The mid-pack will have put a huge emphasis on putting in the required training with their primary goal being to finish at all costs, and will pull out all the stops to do so, but also not risk a DNF by pushing too hard. The top end lads (and lassies) will be all about the performance and the result. A poor performance/result but still finishing doesn't mean much to them, so they will take the big risks to "red-line" their performance to the max, taking on board the inherent big risk of a DNF as a result. There are many factors that increase the risk of DNF as distances get longer.

Funnilly enough Chivito, I think the other end of the extreme of sprinting possibly is similar. Would I be correct in thinking you'd be more likely to see a top end sprinter pull up mid-race because they've twanged something than you would a top end middle distance runner. The sprinters would obviously be pushing aspects of the body more than even the top middle distance runners, running literally as fast as the human body is capable of.

Yeh you're probably not far off there. You'd generally see somebody stop holding their hamstring or quad or something in a sprint race (and in horizontal jumps) than any of the other disciplines. Sprinters are more prone to muscle tears, while distance runners tend to get overuse injuries, so maybe less chance of a 5000m runner dropping out of a race due to injury.

TFBubendorfer

Chivito550 wrote: »

I've noticed in the results of the 2014 100km that some countries had 4 or 5 athletes in the men's race who finished (so not including any more they may have had entered). Is there a restriction of how many can compete for each country? In track races it's 3 per nation, so if the ultra events followed this then the depth would be even lower again.

Not sure about the 100k but in the 24 hrs teams could send up to 9(!) runners, though only 6 could be nominated for the team classification. I remember being very surprised last year myself when I saw this, for the sheer number of athletes! Yes, this makes it relatively easier to qualify for a world championship.

Keep in mind, however, that virtually all nations have qualifying criteria that are strictly cutting down on numbers, which meant last year Ireland sent 3 men and 2 women. Looking at the results from Turin, only Spain and Italy sent a full contingent in the men's race and nobody did so for the women.

UM1

http://www.radiopolar.com/noticia_118179.html

Competitor died at fjord ultra,seeminly from hypotermia..an sos was recieved from the guys gps fone in texas and emergency services were sent,..Rip

UM1

http://www.radiopolar.com/noticia_118179.html

Competitor died at fjord ultra,seeminly from hypotermia..an sos was recieved from the guys gps fone in texas and emergency services were sent,..Rip

UM1

UM1 wrote: »

http://www.radiopolar.com/noticia_118179.html

Competitor died at fjord ultra,seeminly from hypotermia..an sos was recieved from the guys gps fone in texas and emergency services were sent,..Rip

http://trailrunnermag.com/races/148-ultras/2125-runner-dies-during-ultra-fiord-100-in-patagonia

Bugsy2000

UM1 wrote: »

http://trailrunnermag.com/races/148-ultras/2125-runner-dies-during-ultra-fiord-100-in-patagonia

....body found buried under three feet of snow......

.....two other entrants had to camp out for three days with race personnel before it was safe to hike out....

Fock me!!

Ososlo

Anyone do Longford Ultra today? Great course! Fab morning! Loved it 😄 can't wait for next year and would highly recommend it as a first ultra!

mathso

Ososlo wrote: »

Anyone do Longford Ultra today? Great course! Fab morning! Loved it 😄 can't wait for next year and would highly recommend it as a first ultra!

I would love to have run today in Longford Ultra, i did the marathon there last year, great guy Brendan.
But because of work, i ran instead in LONGWOOD, the lads let me do an extra lap
so i managed 30 miles.
I believe the canal path has been resurfaced, it was in bad shape last year, well, one side was anyway.
Well done, good training

ger664

Ososlo wrote: »

Anyone do Longford Ultra today? Great course! Fab morning! Loved it 😄 can't wait for next year and would highly recommend it as a first ultra!

Ran the full u must have been gone home by time I finished . Course was good nice weather, organisation spot on

Ososlo

ger664 wrote: »

Ran the full u must have been gone home by time I finished . Course was good nice weather, organisation spot on

ha ha
Now that I come to think of it I think I remember you passing me. I met you after DCM '14 in da pub and pretty sure it was you I saw today. I had a pink Frank Duffy top on today.
Fab atmosphere, fab course and the stewards were amazing. Agree about the organisation. Faultless. It was brilliant not having to carry anything due to being able to leave drinks etc at drop off point on the course. Hope you had a good run yourself and see you there next year!

Enduro

Stunning new record set on the Bob Graham Round last weekend. Awesome running.

TFBubendorfer

Enduro wrote: »

Stunning new record set on the Bob Graham Round last weekend. Awesome running.

Almost 3 hours under the previous record. :eek:

sixpack's little hat

It's been mentioned here before but Feet in the clouds is an absolutely brilliant read.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1099962.Feet_in_the_Clouds

Enduro

For anyone who likes to watch races on the internet...

The world 6-day trophy is now in it's last day in Hungary. After 5 days of running the top two are currently on the same distance on the leader board, with the lead having changed hands many times. It's a cracking race. Joe Fejes won this race by miles last year, going over 960km and putting himslef well into the top 10 on the all time list. Wolfgang Swerk is over 60 years old, but has the best all time distance of anyone bar the legendary Yiannis Kouros.

It's real tortoise and hare stuff. Joe seems to be running faster, but Wolfgang is taking less sleep time. Weather is really hot during the day, which is causing problems all round. This is likely to come down to the last few hours.

IvoryTower

I clicked in to watch the live stream, not sure what i was expecting tbh, thought they might be following the leaders, instead you just see the odd person walk by a camera!

Enduro

Fixed camera at the lap start/finish. Following the numbers is probably more interesting in this case. Not a lot happens quickly in a 6 day race!

sconhome

Enduro wrote: »

Fixed camera at the lap start/finish. Following the numbers is probably more interesting in this case. Not a lot happens quickly in a 6 day race!

You obviously weren't watching The Spine this year so

davedanon

sconhome wrote: »

You obviously weren't watching The Spine this year so

Erm...

Enduro

Joe and Wolfgang both look to be sleeping (Blue writing... haven't been tracked for at least 20 minutes). I'm guessing they'll both try to run non-stop from here. My guess is that Wolfgang will manage that, but Joe is less likely to. However Joe will be faster when he comes out and will establish a lead heading into the night. If he can hold it together to the finish at midday tomorrow (11 our time) then he'll more than likely win. But Wolfgang has led at the end of day of each day so far, with Joe taking a long break in the mornings allowing Wolfgang in front. The support crews will have their hands full for the rest of the race!

Peterx

Enduro wrote: »

Joe and Wolfgang both look to be sleeping (Blue writing... haven't been tracked for at least 20 minutes). I'm guessing they'll both try to run non-stop from here. My guess is that Wolfgang will manage that, but Joe is less likely to. However Joe will be faster when he comes out and will establish a lead heading into the night. If he can hold it together to the finish at midday tomorrow (11 our time) then he'll more than likely win. But Wolfgang has led at the end of day of each day so far, with Joe taking a long break in the mornings allowing Wolfgang in front. The support crews will have their hands full for the rest of the race!

Is 5 day test cricket as compared to 20:20 cricket a good comparison between long distance Ultra racing and your more common (as in the events much more people partake in) one hour race?
I can see you as a good commentator on the 6 day Ultra when it makes it to the Olympics, probably the next time it visits Japan.

Stablemaster

The guy who won the World Run in Wicklow this weekend really shows how far we have to go in Ireland regards developing world class ultra runners !

He ran 74k

Enduro

Stablemaster wrote: »

The guy who won the World Run in Wicklow this weekend really shows how far we have to go in Ireland regards developing world class ultra runners !

He ran 74k

And yet we have a poster on this forum with a better 100km PB than him (by 6 seconds!).

Djoucer

Stablemaster wrote: »

The guy who won the World Run in Wicklow this weekend really shows how far we have to go in Ireland regards developing world class ultra runners !

He ran 74k

It's the World Run though? Doesn't really reveal anything about ultra running in Ireland?