Ultra Discussion Thread

Stablemaster

Djoucer wrote: »

I think you will find that a few people would disagree with ruthann being better than top Irish men. Most Irish men? Sure. Same way Fionnuala is better than most Irish men.

So it's difficult to extrapolate yet another tiresome debate on the depth of ultra running. It is what it is regardless of hypothetical situations.

As an aside, women tend to do very well in ultras. Similar in the way that Chrissie Wellington was beating some top class men, there's a a couple of female ultra runners that put in incredible performances.

That is more impressive because as women bare children and generally look after the home you would think they wouldn't have interest in the really long distances. Was Chrissie Wellington a homemaker or a spinster?

tang1

Stablemaster wrote: »

That is more impressive because as women bare children and generally look after the home

Good Jesus!!!

Djoucer

Chivito550 wrote: »

How is Fionnuala better than most Irish men. She has never broken 15 mins. She'd be nowhere in a national championship B race even.

The original comparison was a female ultra runner is better than most Irish male ultra runners. Which is similar to saying Fionnuala is better than most Irish male runners.

Neither comparison applies to elite men

Enduro

dublin runner wrote: »

74km on that course was phenomenal running. Have a look at the course and the weather conditions to fully understand his very impressive run.

Has he ran 100km before? No offence to anyone but he is several leagues ahead of anyone on this forum, be it at 5k, marathon or ultra (74km is ultra, right?). I don't have time right now to look into his ultra past. Would be interested to see his times.

Of course his marathon time is relevant to ultra running.

He's a superb runner, and that was a superb run he did at the WFL. I don't think anyone is disputing that.

However you are really showing a either ignorance of what "several leagues ahead" would mean in a 100km context, or a total lack of respect for the top Irish 100km runners, one of whom posts on this forum. Can you be precise about this pleae How far inf front of Irish ultrarunners would he need to be to be "Several Leagues ahead"? A minimum time difference should do it.

His marathon time is not relevant to ultrarunning. It's a different (Shorter faster event). The "Rio" thread has quite a few posters arguing that Paul Pollock's HM time performance should not be relevant for Marathon qualification. Similar here.

Enduro

Djoucer wrote: »

His 100km time is sub 7 hours which I believe is faster than current Irish record.

Oops... you're right. I was looking at his "power of 10" profile which listed his 100km PB as 7:09:39, which he achieved at the world champs in 2014. He set his PB at Belfast with 6:57, which is indeed faster than the Irish record. And fine running it was too!

Enduro

demfad wrote: »

He looks like an endurance based marathoner so 100k might be his limit.

Yeah, I think his PBs definitely hint at that for sure, with his strong HM and Marathon times, and a more competitive 50km than 100km. In my world, that makes him a super "speed ultra" runner, but would likely to be less competitive if he moved up beyond 100km. Looks like a runner who has found his niche.

dublin runner

Enduro wrote: »

He's a superb runner, and that was a superb run he did at the WFL. I don't think anyone is disputing that.

However you are really showing a either ignorance of what "several leagues ahead" would mean in a 100km context, or a total lack of respect for the top Irish 100km runners, one of whom posts on this forum. Can you be precise about this pleae How far inf front of Irish ultrarunners would he need to be to be "Several Leagues ahead"? A minimum time difference should do it.

His marathon time is not relevant to ultrarunning. It's a different (Shorter faster event). The "Rio" thread has quite a few posters arguing that Paul Pollock's HM time performance should not be relevant for Marathon qualification. Similar here.

Ignorant? Perhaps I am. I will never compare a 2.16 guy to the winners of a niche races, with sparse participation, like Spine. That's not to discredit that race, I would in no way be able to complete. That argument just does not stack up. The truth is the best athletes migrate towards the Olympic distances and to where the money is. My belief, again probably 'ignorant' is that IF runners of his calibre trained and participated in the ultra distances the landscape of the sport would quickly change. After all, he is still 13 minutes off WR so you could imagine if the truly worldclass athletes entered.

I do believe the marathon is relevant to ultra distances. Much like how the 5k is relevant to the 26.2 miles.

Enduro

dublin runner wrote: »

I think it would be fair to say that if he approached most distances (and trained specifically) he would destroy most of the field over a lot of ultra distances. He is just one of many 2.16 runners out there of course. In truth most don't bother ultra because they see the marathon and shorter distances as the acid test. That's another argument though.

He is an international class 50km and 100km runner. He would destroy fields which don't have other international class runners in those distances at those distances. However it's all relative. He was 19th in the worlds in 2014. That's an excellent result, but its not exactly destroying the field now, is it?

Incidently, Dan Doherty (Irish International) was 8th at the 100km European champs in 2013 (7:06, but another very hilly course). How does that look from a "leagues ahead"/"destroying the field" persepective?

dublin runner

Enduro wrote: »

He is an international class 50km and 100km runner. He would destroy fields which don't have other international class runners in those distances at those distances. However it's all relative. He was 19th in the worlds in 2014. That's an excellent result, but its not exactly destroying the field now, is it?

Incidently, Dan Doherty (Irish International) was 8th at the 100km European champs in 2013 (7:06, but another very hilly course). How does that look from a "leagues ahead"/"destroying the field" persepective?

He was compared to posters on this very forum. That is why I said he would beat all regular posters on this forum. That's including me, who he destroyed on Sunday!

davedanon

I don't think the Pollock argument stands up. No-one is arguing that a 62 minute Half means anything other than he is very capable of running a marathon faster than 2.15 in Rio. In fact, that is the precise argument for bringing him. People are arguing against bringing him on grounds of fairness, surely? He didn't run the best marathon time, and would be selected on the basis of a race half the distance.

Enduro

dublin runner wrote: »

Ignorant? Perhaps I am. I will never compare a 2.16 guy to the winners of a niche races, with sparse participation, like Spine.

Indeed. Completely different types of races over completely different distances. Chalk and cheese.

dublin runner wrote: »

The truth is the best athletes migrate towards the Olympic distances and to where the money is.

aww christ, not this rubbish again. If the best athletes migrate to where the money is then just accept the reality that the best athletes are all playing soccer /american football / golf. Any runner at any distance, by that myopic viewpoint, is no more than a failed ball-sports player.

Athletes tend to migrate to what they enjoy or what they are good at generally. A tiny tiny small minority will target a sport for the money.

dublin runner wrote: »

My belief, again probably 'ignorant' is that IF runners of his calibre trained and participated in the ultra distances the landscape of the sport would quickly change. After all, he is still 13 minutes off WR so you could imagine if the truly worldclass athletes entered.

I do believe the marathon is relevant to ultra distances. Much like how the 5k is relevant to the 26.2 miles.

Errrm... he has trained and entered ultra distance races, up to world championship level. He is world class, but he hasn't exactly changed the landscape of the sport in any way.

Yeah, a marathon is probably about as relevant to a 100km as a 5km is to a marathon. We can agree on that.

Now let's have a look at one of my favourite results from an Irish Ultrarunner, Dan Doherty's win at the Anglo Celtic Plate in 2013. Why don't you go and do some research of how many sub 2:20 marathoners he beat that day. You might learn something.

Sacksian

Would it be possible to separate the "standards in Irish ultra running" discussion from the Ultra Discussion thread?

I'm sure there's a decent debate to be had, but it might be better if it wasn't dominating practical discussion of races, training, etc. It sort of sucks the joy out of the thread a bit.

The OP says it's:

a thread to discuss training, races, resources, tips, gear etc.

dublin runner

Sacksian wrote: »

Would it be possible to separate the "standards in Irish ultra running" discussion from the Ultra Discussion thread?

I'm sure there's a decent debate to be had, but it might be better if it wasn't dominating practical discussion of races, training, etc. It sort of sucks the joy out of the thread a bit.

The OP says it's:

That's fair enough. I was thinking the same thing. It'a an interesting debate but probably not the place for it.

Enduro

dublin runner wrote: »

He was compared to posters on this very forum. That is why I said he would beat all regular posters on this forum. That's including me, who he destroyed on Sunday!

We have a failry regular poster on this forum, whis is also an international 100km runner. That indicates to me a very similar level of ability over that distance. Again, put some numbers on it. what time difference over 100km do you think "destroying someone" would be?

Enduro

Chivito550 wrote: »

Does that not say it all about the depth in men's ultra running? The best females in Ireland in track events wouldn't even come close to getting out of a heat in the men's Irish national championships. In fact the best women in the world like Allyson Felix wouldn't even get out of an Irish national championships heat.

No, it says a lot about Ruthann's ability, but it's not that unusual in ultrarunning in general, even at high levels. It's a known trait that the gap between male female performance narrows at longer ultra distances. Occasionally you get very interesting results as a result where a female will outright win even a prestigious race. Examples that come to mind are Badwater, which has been won outright by a female runner, and the commonwealth 100km champioships, which was won outright by one of the top female ultrarunners in the world (Setting a world record in the process).

Enduro

davedanon wrote: »

I don't think the Pollock argument stands up. No-one is arguing that a 62 minute Half means anything other than he is very capable of running a marathon faster than 2.15 in Rio. In fact, that is the precise argument for bringing him. People are arguing against bringing him on grounds of fairness, surely? He didn't run the best marathon time, and would be selected on the basis of a race half the distance.

This is an example.... http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99577889&postcount=973. I'm just pointing out these arguments are being floated.

Chivito550

Enduro wrote: »

No, it says a lot about Ruthann's ability, but it's not that unusual in ultrarunning in general, even at high levels. It's a known trait that the gap between male female performance narrows at longer ultra distances. Occasionally you get very interesting results as a result where a female will outright win even a prestigious race. Examples that come to mind are Badwater, which has been won outright by a female runner, and the commonwealth 100km champioships, which was won outright by one of the top female ultrarunners in the world (Setting a world record in the process).

The facts seem to disprove this on a world level. The men’s 24h world record is 303.506km, while the women’s is 255.303km. The women’s record covers 84.1% of the distance of that of the men’s. Assuming an equal pace (I know it’s not 100% accurate to do so, but reasonable all the same), the men’s WR would hit 255.303km (the women’s mark) at 20 hours and 11 minutes. So for 255.303km the men’s time is 18.9% better than the women’s, which is far above the 11-12% differential throughout track and marathon distances.

So the women’s times seem to be actually weaker than the men’s on a world level, and yet in Ireland there is supposedly women who can beat the top men. That says it all about the depth on the men’s side.

Enduro

Chivito550 wrote: »

The facts seem to disprove this on a world level. The men’s 24h world record is 303.506km, while the women’s is 255.303km. The women’s record covers 84.1% of the distance of that of the men’s. Assuming an equal pace (I know it’s not 100% accurate to do so, but reasonable all the same), the men’s WR would hit 255.303km (the women’s mark) at 20 hours and 11 minutes. So for 255.303km the men’s time is 18.9% better than the women’s, which is far above the 11-12% differential throughout track and marathon distances.

Good point! In fact, a quick google turned up this very interesting article. That backs you up 100%. Which would lead me to conclude that any examples where females win races outright would indicate the winning female is likely to be of a much higher relative standard than all of the male field.

Chivito550 wrote: »

So the women’s times seem to be actually weaker than the men’s on a world level, and yet in Ireland there is supposedly women who can beat the top men. That says it all about the depth on the men’s side.

In Ireland we have one female 24 hour runner who can sometimes beat some of the men (when everyone is running well). Ruthann's PB is ahead of all bar 4 (maximum, maybe just 3, without checking) males. That is a fairly accurate representation of the current depth of 24 hour running in Ireland. The depth in both 24 hours and in particular in 100km has been retreating since athletics Ireland took over as the NGB.

Having said that, given the size of our population we actually compare pretty well internationally.

Djoucer

Sacksian wrote: »

Would it be possible to separate the "standards in Irish ultra running" discussion from the Ultra Discussion thread?

I'm sure there's a decent debate to be had, but it might be better if it wasn't dominating practical discussion of races, training, etc. It sort of sucks the joy out of the thread a bit.

The OP says it's:

Agreed.

We've had this debate several times already and it's going no-where besides hypothetical performances of people who’ve never raced a certain distance.

Followed by dreary posting of race results, extrapolating pointless data which proves nothing, all to arrive at the same question that begun the discussion in the first place.

Maybe MODs it's time to break off this discussion for it's own thread?

Clearlier

Enduro wrote: »

His marathon time is not relevant to ultrarunning. It's a different (Shorter faster event). The "Rio" thread has quite a few posters arguing that Paul Pollock's HM time performance should not be relevant for Marathon qualification. Similar here.

dublin runner wrote: »

Ignorant? Perhaps I am. I will never compare a 2.16 guy to the winners of a niche races, with sparse participation, like Spine. That's not to discredit that race, I would in no way be able to complete. That argument just does not stack up. The truth is the best athletes migrate towards the Olympic distances and to where the money is. My belief, again probably 'ignorant' is that IF runners of his calibre trained and participated in the ultra distances the landscape of the sport would quickly change. After all, he is still 13 minutes off WR so you could imagine if the truly worldclass athletes entered.

I do believe the marathon is relevant to ultra distances. Much like how the 5k is relevant to the 26.2 miles.

Enduro wrote: »

aww christ, not this rubbish again. If the best athletes migrate to where the money is then just accept the reality that the best athletes are all playing soccer /american football / golf. Any runner at any distance, by that myopic viewpoint, is no more than a failed ball-sports player.

Athletes tend to migrate to what they enjoy or what they are good at generally. A tiny tiny small minority will target a sport for the money.



Errrm... he has trained and entered ultra distance races, up to world championship level. He is world class, but he hasn't exactly changed the landscape of the sport in any way.

Yeah, a marathon is probably about as relevant to a 100km as a 5km is to a marathon. We can agree on that.

Martelletti and Way are actually a great example of Enduro's point about ultra runners being different to marathon runners. Paul has better PB's than Steve all the way up to the marathon but Steve is much better beyond the marathon distance. Steve and Paul have known each other for 6 or 7 years now and IIRC the first time that Steve actually beat Paul in a race was the World 50k trophy that Steve won 4 or 5 years ago. Going into that race if you'd have asked anyone to pick between them most would have said that it would be close but Paul would probably have the edge. That was the race in which Steve realised that ultra distance might be what suit him best. Paul has a 10k PB of 29:34, Steve's is 30:55. They're very close over the marathon distance but Steve has a 6:19 time over 100k compared to Paul's 6:57. Steve IMO is an ultra runner who runs marathons whereas Paul is a marathon runner who runs ultra's. I suspect that Paul's best distances are half marathon's/marathon's whereas Steve is better at ultra distances. Incidentally both are road rather than trail runners and my guess is that Enduro would beat them on long distance trail ultra's such as the Spine.

On the athlete's migrating to the money I agree with Enduro. About 6 years ago Bournemouth athletics club and Bournemouth football club got together and did a race where the runners ran 10k and the footballers ran the 10k in a relay of 6. A (very good) 47 year old runner won the race. I'm told by my academic wife that for most people there's a fair amount of evidence that when it comes down to it people aren't nearly as incentivised by money as they are by fulfilment, achievement, autonomy and a host of other things. As an aside the notion that money is the centre of all motivation is one of the great myths propagated by the political classes. For sure there are people who are motivated by money but once basic needs are met most aren't.

Djoucer wrote: »

That's Irish athletics in general. Not specific to ultras. Amazing what happens when a country invests in athletics.

Steve Way is phenomenal.

Actually investment in both Paul and Steve has been minimal. Paul grew up in New Zealand playing rugby. Steve's history is well known. Neither started running seriously until they were adults. The only investment in either that I'm aware of was Steve being sent to a marathon in Canada which was viewed as a development race for English athletics. Outside of having basic structures in place very little of what they achieved as runners has been due to any investment made by anyone or body outside of themselves.

Edit to add that money is obviously a significant motivation for Kenyan/Ethiopian athletes as a way to meet their basic needs in life and I suspect that if for some reason it went from marathons to 100k races that you would see competition levels increase at 100k and possibly records broken but many of the runners that do well at marathons would not do so well at 100k. You would see other runners possibly those who are in the second tier at marathon racing come to the fore.

davedanon

Clearlier wrote: »

Martelletti and Way are actually a great example of Enduro's point about ultra runners being different to marathon runners. Paul has better PB's than Steve all the way up to the marathon but Steve is much better beyond the marathon distance. Steve and Paul have known each other for 6 or 7 years now and IIRC the first time that Steve actually beat Paul in a race was the World 50k trophy that Steve won 4 or 5 years ago. Going into that race if you'd have asked anyone to pick between them most would have said that it would be close but Paul would probably have the edge. That was the race in which Steve realised that ultra distance might be what suit him best. Paul has a 10k PB of 29:34, Steve's is 30:55. They're very close over the marathon distance but Steve has a 6:19 time over 100k compared to Paul's 6:57. Steve IMO is an ultra runner who runs marathons whereas Paul is a marathon runner who runs ultra's. I suspect that Paul's best distances are half marathon's/marathon's whereas Steve is better at ultra distances. Incidentally both are road rather than trail runners and my guess is that Enduro would beat them on long distance trail ultra's such as the Spine.

On the athlete's migrating to the money I agree with Enduro. About 6 years ago Bournemouth athletics club and Bournemouth football club got together and did a race where the runners ran 10k and the footballers ran the 10k in a relay of 6. A (very good) 47 year old runner won the race. I'm told by my academic wife that for most people there's a fair amount of evidence that when it comes down to it people aren't nearly as incentivised by money as they are by fulfilment, achievement, autonomy and a host of other things. As an aside the notion that money is the centre of all motivation is one of the great myths propagated by the political classes. For sure there are people who are motivated by money but once basic needs are met most aren't.



Actually investment in both Paul and Steve has been minimal. Paul grew up in New Zealand playing rugby. Steve's history is well known. Neither started running seriously until they were adults. The only investment in either that I'm aware of was Steve being sent to a marathon in Canada which was viewed as a development race for English athletics. Outside of having basic structures in place very little of what they achieved as runners has been due to any investment made by anyone or body outside of themselves.

Edit to add that money is obviously a significant motivation for Kenyan/Ethiopian athletes as a way to meet their basic needs in life and I suspect that if for some reason it went from marathons to 100k races that you would see competition levels increase at 100k and possibly records broken but many of the runners that do well at marathons would not do so well at 100k. You would see other runners possibly those who are in the second tier at marathon racing come to the fore.

"the notion that money is the centre of all motivation is one of the great myths propagated by the political classes"

Good, considered post, but this is just ideological nonsense, and incidentally credits the 'political classes' with far too much influence.

BeepBeep67

.

inov-8 ambassador Nicky Spinks, the inspirational cancer-survivor and fell runner, hopes to mark 10 years post-diagnosis by becoming only the second person – and first woman – to complete a DOUBLE Bob Graham Round. Follow her progress throughout on the live tracker below. Her schedule is below the map.

Starting at 00.01am on Saturday (May 14), the 49-year-old farmer from Yorkshire will attempt to run a 132-mile route across the Lake District’s highest fells in under 48 hours.

https://www.inov-8.com/blog/nicky-spinks-double-bob-graham-tracker/

BeepBeep67

https://twitter.com/inov_8/status/731787924338020352

Itziger

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/inov_8/status/731787924338020352

By the looks of it still going strong. I must admit I can barely get my head around the achievement. I'm 50% in total awe and 50% 'but they're walking half the time'.

Confused.

BeepBeep67

Itziger wrote: »

By the looks of it still going strong. I must admit I can barely get my head around the achievement. I'm 50% in total awe and 50% 'but they're walking half the time'.

Confused.

it's a good question, but there is 80+ peaks to climb

https://twitter.com/inov_8/status/731946419515428864

Enduro

At the airport heading for the Northern Traverse. Should be an interesting week. All runners are carrying trackers, so live progress can be views at http://live.northern traverse.com

Good to see completions of both Wicklow round and Rankin rounds yesterday. Busy days for ultra running.

career move

Enduro wrote: »

At the airport heading for the Northern Traverse. Should be an interesting week. All runners are carrying trackers, so live progress can be views at http://live.northern traverse.com

Good to see completions of both Wicklow round and Rankin rounds yesterday. Busy days for ultra running.

Good luck Enduro. Fingers crossed for you

Neady83

Enduro wrote: »

At the airport heading for the Northern Traverse. Should be an interesting week. All runners are carrying trackers, so live progress can be views at http://live.northern traverse.com

Good to see completions of both Wicklow round and Rankin rounds yesterday. Busy days for ultra running.

Yeaeeeee more dot watching. Best of luck Enduro, hope it's an enjoyable race

career move

That link Enduro posted isn't working. This might be better
http://openadventure.us1.list-manage.com/track/click?u=c3768534f6&id=9735125f5f&e=a19909bf09

Itziger

career move wrote: »

That link Enduro posted isn't working. This might be better
http://openadventure.us1.list-manage.com/track/click?u=c3768534f6&id=9735125f5f&e=a19909bf09

Much better yeah. Looks like he's leading early doors. Now just to refresh for the next 5 days or so.