Ultra Discussion Thread

johnoregan777

Beep beeping??
Might that have been saying Track when passing a runner. That is the norm when passing a runner in lane 1.

Was going to knock me out?? Very mature tough guy talk.
Kind of surprised with all of this but I'll leave you to it.

Enduro

Just going to wade in to back up John on this. If someone is running relatively slowly in the inside lane (the racing line), then faster runners will try to get past on the inside. The faster runners will generally call out ("Track" is the accepted call, but not everyone knows this) if it looks like it will be necessary. Sometimes slower runners on the inside lane will be wearing earphones pumping out loud music (totally understandable in and of itself), which can cause problems when they don't hear the calls.

The fundamental point is that the etiquette is that slower runners should yield the racing line to faster runners. The RD will point this out at the race briefing. (And no matter who you are, there is always someone faster. Everyone will find themselves in a position in a 24 hour race where they should yield the inside line to someone coming up faster behind them. Such are the ups and downs of ultra-running). When I'm at the international races if someone makes any noises from behind to indicate they want to come through (Beeping, muttering, shouting, whatever), I'll get out of their way and apologise. If I get bumped by someone trying to overtake inside my line I'll apologise.

An the other point...as it happens, I think it is reasonable to ask if SK gets an advantage being tethered to her coach in a race. She is not going to be able to run the race without a guide. It's a basic fact that blind runners need an expert trusted guide to assist them. It should also be self evident that the guide should be a more capable runner. Hopefully that doesn't require an explanation.

The tether is not a tow (And I have towed people in team races... a completely different set-up is required to make towing effective). AFAIK The tether is designed to give way if too much force is applied (such as if one runner falls). It's probably an advantage to have someone knowledgeable as a guide, as opposed to someone with no race knowledge. But IMHO that advantage could in no way make up for all the disadvantages a blind runner has to cope with compared to sighted runners.

I know if I was given the choice of running in a 24 hour race fully sighted, or running blindfolded and tethered to the world champion (even after months of practice), I'd choose to run sighted.

belcarra

Coming to this late but just to say that JOR stands out in my memory from Belfast 24hr 2013 as being very friendly and having words of encouragement several times throughout the race, so much so that I even referenced it in my race report!
http://sub3hrs.blogspot.ie/2013/07/belfast-energia-24hr-race.html?m=1

Ososlo

belcarra wrote: »

Coming to this late but just to say that JOR stands out in my memory from Belfast 24hr 2013 as being very friendly and having words of encouragement several times throughout the race, so much so that I even referenced it in my race report!
http://sub3hrs.blogspot.ie/2013/07/belfast-energia-24hr-race.html?m=1

Same experience for me. JOR was very encouraging to a novice like myself on the course last year as were the other experienced guys. The fact that he and some of the others slowed down to my plodding pace on many occasions to offer some support, speaks volumes.

mathso

Ososlo wrote: »

Same experience for me. JOR was very encouraging to a novice like myself on the course last year as were the other experienced guys. The fact that he and some of the others slowed down to my plodding pace on many occasions to offer some support, speaks volumes.

There are a good few people here pointing out to me that JOR is indeed a very nice, friendly, supportive and encouraging guy.
That's not my view but , I could have spoke to him at a bad time , sure we all have those. I do know that he is good guy.
But want about the original question, did this ladie SK have an advantage over the field because there were different rules in place for her on the track.
I.E. coaching
Enduro made good points but sat on the fence a little in my opinion.
Any else got a view on this

RacoonQueen

mathso wrote: »

There are a good few people here pointing out to me that JOR is indeed a very nice, friendly, supportive and encouraging guy.
That's not my view but , I could have spoke to him at a bad time , sure we all have those. I do know that he is good guy.
But want about the original question, did this ladie SK have an advantage over the field because there were different rules in place for her on the track.
I.E. coaching
Enduro made good points but sat on the fence a little in my opinion.
Any else got a view on this

I can see where you're coming from regarding the 'coaching', in that as soon as the doubts or negativity creep in and you voice them, she has to as she has to get her guide to ease off/stop and rest with her...she has someone to talk her through all the steps to see if giving up at this stage is really what she wants to do etc

I remember when I was doing the Dingle 50 mile back in 2010, Mithril from here was unable to race and hit up the course on his bike. I bumped into him at mile 25 and he stayed near me much of the rest of the way - checking in on me, bugging me to eat and drink and chatting away to keep my mind off things...I am pretty sure I would have been very close to jumping ship at the half marathon finish line and hopped on one of the waiting buses had he not been there with me.

Speaking of Dingle, since we're talking about JOR - the previous year I ran the half marathon there and he very kindly gave me a lift from Dingle back to Tralee to catch my train back to Dublin as there were no buses - pretty sure that he then had to drive back to Dingle! Have never forgotten that.

JsepP

It's an interesting question to be fair. Assuming the person here is actually John etc can I ask you what actual assistance do you provide / how much is required of you when running.

I've seen the media friendly pictures which have you guys tethered together etc but then all the unofficial ones posted by the race series themselves that I saw are of the two of you running together not tethered or at times Sinead appearing to be running by herself / with other runners. Think she finished one of the legs a few minutes ahead of you? So it did if I'm honest make me think mathsos question was a reasonable one.

All that said absolute kudos to both of you for covering the 7 marathons in 7 days. Everyone is congratulating Sinead but most seem to forget to congratulate you. You had your own challenge and then the challenge on top of that of providing assistance etc.

Speaking of 777 what are your thoughts on the new 8th continent they announced. Any temptation to do the 888 and get back the marathons in all continents crown?

TFBubendorfer

mathso wrote: »

But want about the original question, did this ladie SK have an advantage over the field because there were different rules in place for her on the track.
I.E. coaching
Enduro made good points but sat on the fence a little in my opinion.
Any else got a view on this

First of all, if a runner manages to achieve a great performance and then someone else chimes in along the lines "I wonder how much advantage she gets from her special circumstances" then you do belittle the performance by questioning it, intended or not. It's hardly SK's fault that she is legally blind and requires assistance.

That aside, purely on a advantage basis, I am firmly of the opinion that whatever potential advantages she might get while racing are more than wiped out by the disadvantages she has during training. My own training would not be possible at all if I required someone with me at all times.

I did google about rules and came up with very little. The runner has to cross the line before the guide, and that doesn't even apply in a 24 hrs race. As for constant access to a coach, it may help or it may not but with the "coach" on his feet for 24 hrs himself I doubt they can give much advice. I remember JOR at the aid station in a race once and when asked what he thought about something all he could come up with " I can't think any more".

The only person really able to answer the question is SK herself, I suppose. I think it's completely missing the point though - she's blind and therefore she must have a guide. End of story.

johnoregan777

JsepP, primarily its guidance for safety. Sinead has 5% vision which isn't enough to notice obstacle or trip hazards until they are too close. A change in terrain or gradient can become a trip hazard. On a track or level ground without obvious obstacles or hazards it is possible to run side by side but the guide needs to be quick enough and strong enough to react if there is a possibly of falling. The arm then takes the place of tether.
The leg of WMC that you mention where I finished a few minutes behind happened because Sinead had caught the lead runner on second last lap. They started to run together and then agreed to finish together. I then took a step back and let them cross the line together and avoided the photos.

In Donadea the tree roots breaking through the path and trail were a big hazard and have this problem on the path along Chesterfield avenue.

No comment on the 8th continent

johnoregan777

Mathso, the bit I don't get is, if you have a problem with me why didn't you say it to my face at the pacers meal which was after the race in Belfast?
Same as the person you won't name who was going to knock me out?
Talking behind my back because you probably thought I won't know who Mathso is.

mathso

John,
First of all this is not one of those accounts used to troll people behind their backs . I have one account and I am well aware that you know who I am .
I did not bring you into this discussion , bar mentioning you as the guide for this lady.
TFB brought you into this discussion when me felt the need to point out how great a guy you are, and that you offered help you everyone on the track regardless of their ability.
I than explained that I did not find you as friendly when I spoke to you in Belfast. That's the way I remember it and I know how I felt at the time.
As I said you were very nice after the event and your unwillingness to speak to me at the time didn't matter one bit .
The " KNOCK OUT" comment was something another runner said to me . I'm sure you would know this guy so I will not mention any names as what is said on the track is best left there.
So I hope this clarifies for you, all we have here is a difference of opinion a misunderstanding or both.
So I hope you wont be chasing me down Chesterfield Ave next time you see me .

Have a good evening

Enduro

mathso wrote: »

There are a good few people here pointing out to me that JOR is indeed a very nice, friendly, supportive and encouraging guy.
That's not my view but , I could have spoke to him at a bad time , sure we all have those. I do know that he is good guy.
But want about the original question, did this ladie SK have an advantage over the field because there were different rules in place for her on the track.
I.E. coaching
Enduro made good points but sat on the fence a little in my opinion.
Any else got a view on this

Hi Mathso,

I don't know why you think I'm sitting on the fence... I thought I was coming down definitively on one side. So, I'll try to be even more definitive!

(1) There are different rules in place for blind athletes full stop. They would not be able to compete without a guide runner, so of course they have different rules. It should be self evident that their guide runner should preferably be of a higher standard, as that will ensure that the guide will not be hindering the runner.

(2) To answer the "little picture" side of you question directly: Clearly it is likely to be an advantage to have an experienced knowledgable guide runner. Although from what I have observed the biggest advantages stem not from the intrinsic event knowledge of the guide, but from the hard-learned specifics of trust and specific knowledge of how to work together that is learned by training and racing together over prolonged period of time. So the Key gain that Sinead get from having John as her guide is that she knows him and trusts him, and he has learned over time the specifics of Sineads needs. John's knowlege of how to race 24 hours is secondary to that IMO.

(3) The "big picture" side of your question (my interpretion little/big picture): No amount of assistance that Sinead gains from having John (or anyone else) as her guide could possibly make up for the disadvantages of having only 5% vision. Again for clarity: This means that my answer to your question is an overall "NO, she does not gain an unfair advantage over fully sighted runners by having John on the track with her for the race".

If you can't see this (NPI) then try this little experiment: Find someone faster than you who is willing to guide you through all your training and racing. Blindfold yourself for all your training sessions until your next race, and only train when your guide is willing to train with you. Run your race blindfolded. If you think any of this might be a little too difficult remember that Sinead doesn't get the choice of opting out of these difficulties.

ger664

There is no advantage. All runners have access to a personal crew for the race. How much experience their crew has is up to them.

pushpush

I was out today and I seen a Blind man walking with his guide dog.
Old fashioned Blind man.
In the dark Blind.

BLIND!!!
Not legally blind
Not visually impared
Not short sighted
BLIND

My point being that the lady in a lot of the discussion this week , all over social media , TV appearances, public speaking , magazine covers, awards and sponsorship deals and actually SEE.
See enough to walk unaided, to use an I phone , to run unteathered.
Even Jason Smyth , legally blind Jason Smyth can run perfectly without swaying from lane to lane and set world records.
He acknowledges the cameras, the other runners. He can see enough to know his position on the track.
So if you take away the Blind Label, this lady jogged around the world and got someone else to pay for it.
The media circus does the rest , whipped up by a huge sponsor and our need to worship hero's

FAIR PLAY TO HER !!!!!!!

Working class heroes

pushpush wrote: »

I was out today and I seen a Blind man walking with his guide dog.
Old fashioned Blind man.
In the dark Blind.

BLIND!!!
Not legally blind
Not visually impared
Not short sighted
BLIND

My point being that the lady in a lot of the discussion this week , all over social media , TV appearances, public speaking , magazine covers, awards and sponsorship deals and actually SEE.
See enough to walk unaided, to use an I phone , to run unteathered.
Even Jason Smyth , legally blind Jason Smyth can run perfectly without swaying from lane to lane and set world records.
He acknowledges the cameras, the other runners. He can see enough to know his position on the track.
So if you take away the Blind Label, this lady jogged around the world and got someone else to pay for it.
The media circus does the rest , whipped up by a huge sponsor and our need to worship hero's

FAIR PLAY TO HER !!!!!!!

Are you blind drunk?

TFBubendorfer

pushpush wrote: »

I was out today and I seen a Blind man walking with his guide dog.
Old fashioned Blind man.
In the dark Blind.

BLIND!!!
Not legally blind
Not visually impared
Not short sighted
BLIND

My point being that the lady in a lot of the discussion this week , all over social media , TV appearances, public speaking , magazine covers, awards and sponsorship deals and actually SEE.
See enough to walk unaided, to use an I phone , to run unteathered.
Even Jason Smyth , legally blind Jason Smyth can run perfectly without swaying from lane to lane and set world records.
He acknowledges the cameras, the other runners. He can see enough to know his position on the track.
So if you take away the Blind Label, this lady jogged around the world and got someone else to pay for it.
The media circus does the rest , whipped up by a huge sponsor and our need to worship hero's

FAIR PLAY TO HER !!!!!!!

You need to learn how to use apostrophes correctly.

RayCun

4/10

(you do get a point for knowing who Jason Smyth is)

BeepBeep67

RayCun wrote: »

4/10

(you do get a point for knowing who Jason Smyth is)

What was the other 3 for?

RayCun

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

What was the other 3 for?

Some sentences didn't have any spelling mistakes.

Clearlier

johnoregan777 wrote: »

JsepP, primarily its guidance for safety. Sinead has 5% vision which isn't enough to notice obstacle or trip hazards until they are too close. A change in terrain or gradient can become a trip hazard. On a track or level ground without obvious obstacles or hazards it is possible to run side by side but the guide needs to be quick enough and strong enough to react if there is a possibly of falling. The arm then takes the place of tether.
The leg of WMC that you mention where I finished a few minutes behind happened because Sinead had caught the lead runner on second last lap. They started to run together and then agreed to finish together. I then took a step back and let them cross the line together and avoided the photos.

In Donadea the tree roots breaking through the path and trail were a big hazard and have this problem on the path along Chesterfield avenue.

No comment on the 8th continent

Curious to know whether SK does actually always need a guide to train? I'm guessing from what you're saying that she could probably manage a track and a treadmill but wondering if it's feasible for her to run on other learned routes or would she be too concerned about the possibility of unexpected hazards? Perhaps she can run some routes on cloudy days but not when it's sunny or perhaps just not when the sun is low?

Tree roots must have been a nightmare - how did you manage them?

johnoregan777

Clearlier, running on a treadmill can be manageable but a loss of concentration or if the music is too loud in the gym then it's not so easy. If running on a treadmill, Sinead would get one of the gym instructors to set the pace and then she runs. One of her eye conditions causes shaking of the eye and this can affect balance and staying in a straight line.

Running on a Track can be manageable as Sinead can follow the white line during daytime. If the day is too bright or overcast then that's an issue as Sinead doesn't have an Iris and takes in too much light. If the track is busy then it's not possible as wouldn't notice someone in front until too late and can't handle glare. Can't run under floodlights.
Learned routes as you suggest are constantly changing as all it takes is a new obstacle such as a dog walking it or some rubbish on the ground. In Marrakesh we had a very serious incident which almost resulted in broken toes after a rock was dislodged into our path and I didn't spot it when turning a corner. This could be called a learned route as we had ran same loop 6 times and then all of a sudden it was there. It almost ended our race.

Tree routes breaking through the path or just causing a bump ca be a serious hazard as you don't always spot them until too late. My technique is to name the hazard and then a number that indicates distance away in my predicted time, Tree Roots in 10 or Speed Ramp in 15.
That gives an advance warning and then I count down from 5 and hold out my arm and keep it tense so it acts as a support rather than like the arm on a slot machine. When clear I say release. Sometime we have to walk.
The guiding needs to be adaptable to the environment and a track is probably the best for racing on. In Espoo we could run side by side and when moving around others I was able to mostly talk it if we weren't having to move through a group hitch did happen at times.
On the track in Belfast the timing mat was slightly raised and this meant using the arm bar on every lap.

All in all it's very limited to what can be done without the aid of a guide.
It must be very frustrating for someone to know that they have a talent but are relying on someone's help because their disability is holding them back.

Slogger Jogger

Might be a suitable challenge for runners here.
https://www.imra.ie/forum/topic/id/4501
A last man standing type of event with route variations each time around on Three Rock mountain.

jamule

Slogger Jogger wrote: »

Might be a suitable challenge for runners here.
https://www.imra.ie/forum/topic/id/4501
A last man standing type of event with route variations each time around on Three Rock mountain.

thats sounds deadly. I'm not sure i'd get to the end but i'd be all right to get 7 or 8 done. The timing (or lack) is biggest headwreck.

Ososlo

During Poland's 24 Hour Championship held in Park Zdrowie, Patrycja
Bereznowska set a NEW world record. She ran 256.246 km* (159.223
mile...s)
beating Japan's Mami Kudo previously held record of 255.303 km (158.637 miles)
set in 2011.

When we asked about her new world record, Patrycja said, "I still find it
hard to believe. I did not plan to make a record and only to fight for the
podium. After 12 hours, I realized that this was a good day to try for
more."
"I look forward to racing in Belfast with other strong women's teams
from the USA, Japan and Sweden", she added.

From Belfast 24 Hour Facebook

RacoonQueen

Slogger Jogger wrote: »

Might be a suitable challenge for runners here.
https://www.imra.ie/forum/topic/id/4501
A last man standing type of event with route variations each time around on Three Rock mountain.

That sounds savage...hard to work out from that but, how long is a loop? Just trying to work out if I could even do one loop in an hour

Kurt.Godel

RacoonQueen wrote: »

That sounds savage...hard to work out from that but, how long is a loop? Just trying to work out if I could even do one loop in an hour

Ah Medbh for the love of god... "The loop measures approximately 5.3km in distance. With ascent & descent of approx. 300M."

Sounds like a fun race! "Last man standing" has a real charm to it

ger664

Kurt.Godel wrote: »

Ah Medbh for the love of god... "The loop measures approximately 5.3km in distance. With ascent & descent of approx. 300M."

Sounds like a fun race! "Last man standing" has a real charm to it

Ah Paul for christ sake this is the ATR Forum so the loop measures approximately 3.3 miles in distance. With ascent & descent of approx. 985 Ft.

RacoonQueen

Kurt.Godel wrote: »

Ah Medbh for the love of god... "The loop measures approximately 5.3km in distance. With ascent & descent of approx. 300M."

Sounds like a fun race! "Last man standing" has a real charm to it

In my defence, yesterday was a long day and I was looking at the distance line

Honestly don't remember seeing that line yesterday...and I read the whole thing twice. :pac:

Slogger Jogger

Sounds like the kind of event KG would be interested in doing and that lack of training wouldn't get in the way of that!

mithril

Any tips for dealing with sleep deprivation during an Ultra?

My experience is that I cope with the tiredness in the body pretty well, but as soon as night falls, it’s the sleep deprivation that is the killer. The sensation does not appear to be just a function of tiredness since I revive pretty well as soon as it gets bright again. Not sure whether to chance a nap during UTMB and for what length? Would the body lock up and make it very difficult to get going again?

I tend to use the torch at the lowest setting necessary to save the battery, but would a more powerful beam which floods the trail ahead with light help combat the fatigue?