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How bad are the Gardai and what do we do about it?
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Tail Docker wrote: »I read it. Sounded pretty usual. I have to go in to get forms signed by the gards for work stuff - I dread it, as does everyone else who gets roped in to do it - they make a simple, routine job a pita with their arsey attitude. They also have f.all manners, as it happens.
My s.i.l is a gard, btw.
I agree with that, only last week I lost my drivers license. So I rang Finglas station to ask if they had any forms to get a new one. I knew the form has to be stamped by a Garda so it made sense to go down there, fill it out and then get it stamped by producing a passport and evidence of address. So down I go the next morning but low and behold they don't have any forms, despite being told the previous evening that they do. He told me I'd get one on the website but my printer is broke so I needed a physical copy. So he suggested I go to Cabra, Ballymun or Santry station to get one. So I set off for Ballymun, got there, went in but they didn't have any forms and said go to Santry. At Santry the Guard told me that they no longer stock them and that I'd have to go to the NDLS Centre to get one. Down I went there to finally get one and back to the same guy in Santry to get it stamped but he tells me he can't stamp it because I don't live in their district and would have to go back to Finglas to get it stamped. I explained to him the entire story but he wasn't being flexible in the slightest so back to Finglas I go, pretty pissed off at this stage at dealing with bureaucracy. Finally got it stamped there and then had to drive all the way back to Santry again so I could go to the NDLS to apply for a replacement license. Once that was done I drove all the way back to Finglss again to get home.
You'd think it would have been a simple job to get a form stamped but it took me nearly three hours in the end. This was because a) a Garda on the phone told me there was forms in the Finglss station when there wasn't and b) because the Garda at both Finglas and Ballymun didn't know that their stations no longer stock driver license application forms. Their lack of knowledge cost me the best part of three hours going from pillar to post. They could not perform even the most basic of tasks competently.0 -
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Dont call me Shirley wrote: »Here's my two cents for what we can start to do about Garda corruption.
A) An immediate across the board salary cut of 15% to be reviewed in five years on the basis of improved performance in that period.
A relaxation of Ireland's privacy laws so that Gardai can be filmed and recorded in public places where there is a reasonable belief they may be involved in illegal activity.
C) All allegations of Garda corruption/malpractise to be dealt with in public by a Dail/Seanad subcommittee with the power to dismiss and remove pension privileges.
You can film anything you like including Gards in a public area, they might not like it and get arsey with you, threaten to sieze your phone/camera etc but there is no law in place that prevents you from doing it despite what they might tell you.0 -
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So competent guards are only the ones who didn't want to be a guard but somehow ended up becoming one anyway...?minidazzler wrote: »The first indication that someone probably shouldn't be a Garda, is that they want to be a Garda.
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Some stupid stuff on this thread like "They're scum" and "I hate them they are by far other than politicians the lowest form of existence in this country!!!!!" but...I think that's where the corruption in the Gardai begins. Lots of people are of the opinion that the Gardai are only corrupt at the very senior management levels but the reality is it is rife throughout the organisation and the use of the Garda ID badge to get free into nightclubs or get free food is where it all begins. Automatically if Gardai are getting freebies from some businesses but not for others well then they have a vested interest to protect (and never raid) nightclubs that let them in for free. People may not think that letting a Garda I to a nightclub for free on their night off does any harm but as with all corruption it starts out small and then expands when it's not nipped in the bud.
Perfectly said. How can one "love" them the more they hear about them?
The Morris Tribunal, the plethora of revelations this year, the harassment Tom Gilmartin got... are people having a laugh when they say that's just a few bad apples? It is a *culture* of corruption. I'd say the worst of it is only concentrated in small towns/rural communities, but that is still a LOT more than "a few bad apples".
And while bigger urban areas aren't where you'd find such corruption, the low-level stuff like the tearing up speeding tickets, the freebies in bars etc just because they're guards... it's still crooked.
Their actual competence at law enforcement is linked to the above obviously but also separate. I think they are too under-resourced to do a good enough job overall, so I can't justify blaming them on that score.
I've had the usual minor dealings with guards and they were always lovely, including two occasions when I was in the wrong (exceeding the speed limit) so I don't doubt they are mostly grand. And you'll only hear about the bad stuff.
But the element of bad is too significant to wave away as "a few bad apples".0 -
Karl Stein wrote: »Wait a sec.. aren't those the things cops are supposed to do and get paid for?
Gardaí are paid to enforce the law. Aside from the initial example (susp male in an estate), the other examples are not part of the job. It's community involvement. Someone a few pages back mentioned something along the lines of it being wrong for a Garda to pose for pictures. I think that it's something that should happen a lot more. What's the harm in posing and having a chat while on the beat? As long as the member is still aware of what's going on around them, and intervene when needed, there's nothing wrong with it. And those who do get the photo are grateful and left with a positive image.
But, all they need is for someone in power to tell them to stop doing non-job related tasks, like helping someone with a flat tyre, helping an older person across the road, etc, and they'll stop. And be hated even more for it. A (good) Garda does so much extra, non-crime related work, but it all goes un-noticed or someone takes an issue with it.Dont call me Shirley wrote: »If we look at the numbers alone, the results so far in this poll show about 50% have serious concerns about the gardai, slightly less than a recent poll carried out by a reputable body and published in a major newspaper. You're argument therefore dictates that 50% of the population are either lunatics/criminals or have had an unpleasant experience with a corrupt guard.
Personally, I'd estimate about 15/20% (asking for it, I know) of the population as lunatics/criminals which leaves us with 30% of the population as having had a bad experience with a small minority of corrupt gardai.
That simply doesn't add up. It suggests that either a small minority of corrupt gardai are running riot or that corruption is more widespread than you allow.
Or that it's 99% of the time that the negative aspects of the job are highlighted, whereas maybe 1% of the good work is highlighted. People don't go out of their way to give praise, but will move mountains to give out.Dont call me Shirley wrote: »Another telling example here (aside from what I personally experienced this week which I appreciate cannot be validated) is the treatment dished out to Maurice McCabe since he returned to work.
Here we have an honest and courageous individual (and I think we can all finally
agree on this) who is subject to widespread harassment on his return to work.
Surely if it was only a small minority, the decent majority would not stand for this?
I can't speak about the harrassment he may be receiving, but if he is then it should be investigated properly. However, i would like to point out that he's not this beacon of perfection people are making him out to be. The report that was released showed him as someone who was not capable of making correct decisions, someone with poor interpersonal skills and someone who was not a very good Sergeant.I know of a friend who got a record 'cleaned' because his mate was a guard.
They are not good at sticking to the letter.
It's not possible to get your "record cleaned". Once it's on the system, it stays on the system. It cannot be removed. Your friend is either lieing, or was never seriously in trouble.So in short I don't really care if morale in the force is low, their pay is not good, their under resourced and blah blah blah fact is they can do whatever it is they want they are beyond the reaches of the law they really don't want to do any work whatsoever.
The only thing that they are interested in is assisting banks throwing people out of their homes and prosecuting motorists in fact this is true because in the last 5 years revenue from fines is up but crime and serious crime detection rates are down I could give many other examples
I hate them they are by far other than politicians the lowest form of existence in this country!!!!!
Wow. Just wow. Way to generalise. Gardaí have no interest in kicking people out of their homes (career criminals possibly an exception). They are required to assist, to ensure no breach of the peace, while an instrument of the state (the Sheriff) executes a legal document requiring repossession of the house, which would more than likely have been avoided if the person who was in the house came to an agreement with the banks regarding repayments. They don't kick everyone out, just those unwilling to come to agreed terms. But that's a different thread.
As for prosecuting motorists, if people drove legally and courteously, there wouldn't be a need for a Traffic Corps or fines. These are there to stop people from breaking Road Traffic Law, and anyone will tell you that there are so many idiot and dangerous motorists on the road that we could do with more checkpoints. Trust me, management in AGS would be more than happy to use the Traffic Corps members for regular and specialised units, but the fact is that they're needed. And, as i said, no one would get a ticket if they stuck to the rules of the road.
I think people that generalise are the second lowest form of existence in this country, just behind criminals.... the use of the Garda ID badge to get free into nightclubs or get free food is where it all begins. Automatically if Gardai are getting freebies from some businesses but not for others well then they have a vested interest to protect (and never raid) nightclubs that let them in for free. People may not think that letting a Garda I to a nightclub for free on their night off does any harm but as with all corruption it starts out small and then expands when it's not nipped in the bud.
I've never actually seen a Garda use his badge. I have seen off duty members getting into clubs for free, but i have seen the same members checking those nightclubs and pubs, and i've seen the same members clear out the clubs/pubs when they're still open passed closing time. There is obviously a silent agreement between that member and the club, as the club know he's doing his job, and helps them out when necessary (what people working in a club seriously want to still be there after closing time?). In return, they just don't charge that member into the club (even if he wants to pay!), but know full well he'll drop a large amount of money inside there on booze. Works both ways. And Gardaí are not the only ones who get into clubs for free. You think the security and staff pay to get in on their nights off? Same for friends of the management or even security.Dont call me Shirley wrote: »Here's my two cents for what we can start to do about Garda corruption.
A) An immediate across the board salary cut of 15% to be reviewed in five years on the basis of improved performance in that period. A relaxation of Ireland's privacy laws so that Gardai can be filmed and recorded in public places where there is a reasonable belief they may be involved in illegal activity.
C) All allegations of Garda corruption/malpractise to be dealt with in public by a Dail/Seanad subcommittee with the power to dismiss and remove pension privileges.
A: The state hasn't taken enough off them at this stage no? Take any more, and i guarantee the force will get worse because who would be willing to put themselves out of the way for a Government who takes most of their wages? They'll still do the job, but there will be no proactive policing, and morale will go even lower (if possible) and this will have a knock on effect to the public. Instead, how about paying them more and making sure that management are doing their job and ensuring that their members are carrying out their duties properly and efficiently, instead of hitting the worse off (within the force) again? Everyone would do sweet FA at work if there wasn't management to keep them in line. That's what AGS is missing.
B: As someone else already pointed out, anyone can record anything in public. So the point is moot.
C: So you want corruption within AGS to be dealt with by possibly the most corrupt organisation in the country? How about setting up a separate organisation to investigate allegations of corruption, an organisation that has no affiliation to the Government, AGS, or anyone else.foxy farmer wrote: »...A man is arrested for drunk driving. Found to be 4 times over the limit. When case goes to court observant legal team points out to judge that wrong townland was entered by gardai for location of arrest. Only out by ten feet. Seemingly checkpoint was set up on bridge at boundary of 2 townlands. Man gets off scot free but within six months crashes into another car again while drunk. If he was banned in first instance nobody would have been hurt in second event.
There are 50+ points to prove in a Drink Driving case. Sherlock Holmes himself can make a mistake when that many points need to be proven. A single syntax error seems to be enough to get off drink driving. Drink Driving cases should be simplified, but that will never happen. It's getting harder and harder to prosecute criminals, and nothing is being done to help those doing the prosecuting. I'll admit that some law needs that level of perfection (murder, rape, etc), but in the example you gave, that should have been open and shut. Who cares if the townland was incorrect by a few feet, he was caught 4 times over the limit, on a public road, that should be enough. But it's not.I agree with that... (long post about a driving licence) ...They could not perform even the most basic of tasks competently.
So, it's the Gardas fault that there were no forms there the day after you rang? It's the Gardas fault that they cannot stamp a form for an address in a different district? (That's procedure, by the way, same for a passport - him stamping it would have ended up in the form being returned and it taking longer). And not all stations get the forms, but normally the Divisional or District Headquarters do, so that's why some stations have them, others don't. You could also have gotten the form online, in the Motor Tax office, Post Offices and, as you got it, in the NDLS centres. You could have avoided it all by going straight to the NDLS centre to get the form in the first place.rolliepoley wrote: »This is how they are thought in templemore, total ignorance to the public, any normal person who joins the Garda wont be the same person when they leave that place.
You didn't get through the training, did you? Your ignorance in that post is blissful.rolliepoley wrote: »So if your such a wise one tell me how it is?
Mostly classes learning law (there is quite a bit to learn, and you only get taught the main, recurring ones). A tiny bit of self defence (which is completely irrelevant once on the street), marching, small bit of fitness, small bits of first aid and swimming, Irish & French/German (pointless, imo), some random humanitarian classes, lectures from minority representative groups, thesis classes, computers (ie: Pulse). There's some other classes, but nothing of note. Mainly, attempting to learn the law.Knob Longman wrote: »Welcome to Templemore
Whatever it is you think you know, Get it all out of your heads now,
We'll tell everything you need to know..
A BanGarda told me that...
She's right, because regardless of what you think you know about criminal law, you're probably wrong. They prefer people with little to no knowledge of criminal law, because they're the ones that learn something new, rather than correct something they thought they knew. And, it's not everything, it's very little actually, the real learning begins when they get the badge and go do the job.
I did a long post in another thread about the blurred line between corruption and discretion, and still stand by my point that discretion is corruption, regardless of how it's looked at. However, without discretion, everyone would be arrested for everything. Maybe that'd be better, people would get what they're looking for, until it's them that's being arrested for careless driving by barely going over the white line in the middle of the road, or stopping in a junction box, or simply smoking a cigarette while driving (can be construed as same, you're not giving 100% to your driving). Discrection is needed, and for that to be utilised, it is a form of corruption. Where's the line???
@rolliepoley, it's not thought in there. Trust me. There's not enough time to learn all the law, let alone how to be a prick of a Guard.0 -
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Some stupid stuff on this thread like "They're scum" and "I hate them they are by far other than politicians the lowest form of existence in this country!!!!!" but...
Perfectly said. How can one "love" them the more they hear about them?
The Morris Tribunal, the plethora of revelations this year, the harassment Tom Gilmartin got... are people having a laugh when they say that's just a few bad apples? It is a *culture* of corruption. I'd say the worst of it is only concentrated in small towns/rural communities, but that is still a LOT more than "a few bad apples".
And while bigger urban areas aren't where you'd find such corruption, the low-level stuff like the tearing up speeding tickets, the freebies in bars etc just because they're guards... it's still crooked.
Their actual competence at law enforcement is linked to the above obviously but also separate. I think they are too under-resourced to do a good enough job overall, so I can't justify blaming them on that score.
I've had the usual minor dealings with guards and they were always lovely, including two occasions when I was in the wrong (exceeding the speed limit) so I don't doubt they are mostly grand. And you'll only hear about the bad stuff.
But the element of bad is too significant to wave away as "a few bad apples".
what does a planning tribunal and tom gilmartin have to do with the gardai ?? seem to be different issues ??0 -
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Shady Tady wrote: »I didn't know all gardai told lies to get convictions!
Talk about putting words in someones mouth there, Shady. At what point does kikidelvin mention the word "all"
or did you just read what you wanted to read ? 0 -
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