How bad are the Gardai and what do we do about it?

sam34

Muahahaha wrote: »

So you dont think that a girl who had just been sexually groped would think that the next step in the crime is rape ? If a man is willing to sexually grope a female well then he's certainly prepared to rape her- both actions show zero regard for her bodily integrity and are one and the same to any woman. The very fact she ran away up the street shows she was scared out of her wits. You seem to make light of the seriousness of it, I hope your daughter is never placed in that same situation, I'm sure if she was then you'd appreciate her fear of being raped.

No, no they're not. Being groped is very different to bring raped and to suggest otherwise does a disservice to rape victims.

Potential-Monke

Like all threads with Garda bashing, there's no point. People have their minds made up. The Government doesn't want Gardaí speaking their minds, and even posting on here can put the job on the line. I've defended the good Gardaí enough times in numerous threads. People thinking McCabe is the best Garda possible because he outed some corruption, but dismissing that he actually wasn't very good at his job, but that's ok as long as he's a whistleblower.

I'm out of this thread, like i always end up leaving because it goes around in circles all day long. People want honesty, but give out when they get it. Little gestures between professionals is seen as corruption of the highest order, or leads to corruption of the highest order. Everyone, and i mean everyone, has been corrupt in their lives, but it's only corruption to them when they're not benefiting from it. Discretion is corruption, but people don't want robots enforcing the law either, because it will effect everyone.

People want the Gardaí to be this super-force, incapable of making mistakes, but that's not human nature. People make mistakes. It happens in every job, everywhere in the world. I was going to reply to a few people who quoted me, but what's the point. It doesn't matter what i say, i'm wrong. The final point that i'll make is that regardless or what is said or done, those who have a hatred of the Gardaí will never change their minds. So it's pointless. I'm not admitting defeat, i just couldn't be bothered going through all this again. Done it enough times already.

Good luck in your lives people, and i hope the day doesn't come when you might require the services of these corrupt Gardaí.

Muahahaha

sam34 wrote: »

No, no they're not. Being groped is very different to bring raped and to suggest otherwise does a disservice to rape victims.

I never suggested rape was the same as sexual groping, you are misquoting me. I am saying that the fear they put into women are one and the same- being groped or raped are in the same category of fear because one leads to the other.

I said that sexual groping a woman's private parts and raping her both show that the perpetrator has no respect for her bodily integrity. One crime is a lot more violent than the other but both crimes are in the same zone- if a man is willing to touch a woman sexually without consent and against her will then he obviously has zero respect for her, he has crossed a threshold by groping her against her will, for the woman once that threshold is broken automatically her guard is up against rape because the perpetrator has now displayed behaviour that you would only expect from a potential rapist.

The truth of the point doesn't lie with me because I'm a man. But go ask any woman you know if she has been just sexually groped by a man who was drunk and abusive in a taxi wether or not she would then think to herself she wasn't in danger of being raped. The man has revealed himself to be a sexual predator by groping her, she's hardly likely to be standing there thinking "well it was only a grope, there's no way this man would actually rape me". No she dam well wouldn't, she would run a mile screaming, as the victim has done in this case.

So before you go accusing me of doing rape victims a disservice perhaps consider yourself how for them the crime of rape began with a grope and see it from their point of view.

chrissb8

Looking at Dublin city center which is full of junkies dealing drugs or doing them or sitting out strung out on them. Why is there no gardai presence consistently all the time in all the main areas of Dublin. I just do not get it. I am sick and just feel embarrassed that the capital city of Ireland can't even deal with a problem like this. I have no time for the gardai at all. A lot are very aloof. A lot are fat street beat delusional fools if they think they're catching some skinny 18 year old scumbag sprinting away from them. Of course the corruption and the fact that there's not enough of them are other issues to add to why I think they're terrible. I think the gardai as a model and system of protecting people needs to be seriously looked at. Then again I don't have much faith in any institution in Ireland.

Witcher

chrissb8 wrote: »

Looking at Dublin city center which is full of junkies dealing drugs or doing them or sitting out strung out on them. Why is there no gardai presence consistently all the time in all the main areas of Dublin. I just do not get it. I am sick and just feel embarrassed that the capital city of Ireland can't even deal with a problem like this. I have no time for the gardai at all. A lot are very aloof. A lot are fat street beat delusional fools if they think they're catching some skinny 18 year old scumbag sprinting away from them. Of course the corruption and the fact that there's not enough of them are other issues to add to why I think they're terrible. I think the gardai as a model and system of protecting people needs to be seriously looked at. Then again I don't have much faith in any institution in Ireland.

The Gardai have become severely disillusioned because the judicial system is not punishing people properly for their crimes. I know several Gardai and they've all said the same thing to me.

There was a similar thread on this a while ago and after it I asked one of them again about..he said the week before he had brought a lad in for attacking a man with a fire poker..as he said himself..who the fcuk carries a fire poker around...anyway your man was brought in and he saw him later walking back towards his(the young lad's) estate as he was finishing his shift having been let out. Presumably they were working on charges...file sent to the DPP etc. but that's what the Gardai are seeing everyday...they're pissing against the wind.

I've seen it in my own town without having a Garda tell me..lad I know indirectly was caught with 2/3 guns and a load of ammunition....he got two years and served one. The mandatory minimum sentence for even possessing a bullet is supposed to be 5 years, 10 if you intend to endanger life with it.

sam34

Muahahaha wrote: »

I never suggested rape was the same as sexual groping, you are misquoting me. I am saying that the fear they put into women are one and the same- being groped or raped are in the same category of fear because one leads to the other.

I said that sexual groping a woman's private parts and raping her both show that the perpetrator has no respect for her bodily integrity. One crime is a lot more violent than the other but both crimes are in the same zone- if a man is willing to touch a woman sexually without consent and against her will then he obviously has zero respect for her, he has crossed a threshold by groping her against her will, for the woman once that threshold is broken automatically her guard is up against rape because the perpetrator has now displayed behaviour that you would only expect from a potential rapist.

The truth of the point doesn't lie with me because I'm a man. But go ask any woman you know if she has been just sexually groped by a man who was drunk and abusive in a taxi wether or not she would then think to herself she wasn't in danger of being raped. The man has revealed himself to be a sexual predator by groping her, she's hardly likely to be standing there thinking "well it was only a grope, there's no way this man would actually rape me". No she dam well wouldn't, she would run a mile screaming, as the victim has done in this case.

So before you go accusing me of doing rape victims a disservice perhaps consider yourself how for them the crime of rape began with a grope and see it from their point of view.

I didn't misquote you- I quoted you directly and highlighted part of what you said.

And you know, I don't need to go around asking 'any woman (I) know' about her experience, and taking that answer as definitive, because I'm a woman, I've been groped, I know lots of women who've been groped, there's often threads in TLL about it... From my experience, the amount of gropes that led to rape or more violent sexual assault is very small. I don't think it's correct that any woman who gets groped immediately fears she will be raped by the perpetrator.

Little CuChulainn

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I must be missing something. Can you quote the bit where they took the vehicle by force?

When I got to Kingscourt I told the four lads they would have to get off it was the last stop. I still had about six locals on the bus who I was going to drop home because I would always leave them home. The four lads refused to get off when asked. The biggest lad kept saying to ring the Guards that he wasn't moving he wanted to be taken to Ardee. He refused to get off for about half an hour and the other people just got impatient as they wanted to get home so they got off. One girl was still on the bus she didn’t get off.

When the passengers were getting off the biggest lad groped another girl when she was getting off. The four lads were still on the bus at this stage. I then agreed to take them to Ardee and the lad sitting behind me said out loud to the other lads that ‘we'll pay her well if she does it’. The biggest lad then started shouting ‘she’s getting nothing off me I’ll just take the bus and take myself ****ing home’.

By the way you described this incident as "the case where the woman was slapped on the arse in the taxi".

Either you can't read or you don't give a damn about lying to us. Which is it? Like I said, I hope you are not a guard.

Muahahaha

sam34 wrote: »

I didn't misquote you- I quoted you directly and highlighted part of what you said.

And you know, I don't need to go around asking 'any woman (I) know' about her experience, and taking that answer as definitive, because I'm a woman, I've been groped, I know lots of women who've been groped, there's often threads in TLL about it... From my experience, the amount of gropes that led to rape or more violent sexual assault is very small. I don't think it's correct that any woman who gets groped immediately fears she will be raped by the perpetrator.

I'm not saying all gropes lead to rape, of course not. Many gropes happen in public places, pubs, nightclubs, where the opportunity to rape isn't present. And nor am I saying that every man who gropes is a rapist, I'm saying he is a potential rapist and even an 'innocent' grope shows him to be so. You could put it this way: All rapists are gropers but not all gropers are rapists. You might have 5% of all men who are willing to grope women and 1% of all men who are willing to commit rape if the opportunity presents itself. Within the 5% groping population is contained the 1% raping population. So when a groper reveals himself by touching a woman's private parts without consent then they have just come face to face with a potential rapist and possibly with an actual rapist who has done it before. When I say potential rapist what I mean is that the person is a groper so therefore, having shown no respect for a woman's right to bodily integrity, has the potential to rape. He might not ever fulfill that potential in his lifetime, he might never get the opportunity to but it's the potentiality that women fear, and rightly so. It's a bit like someone who takes a gun out of their pocket, a moment before they were a normal human being but with a gun out they suddenly become a potential murderer even though they haven't actually murdered anyone. They've shown the disposition to do so by having a gun, much in the same way a groper displays the disposition to rape by his willingness to grope a woman sexually.

MRnotlob606

smell off them

I do know of a case about a retired Garda who was pretty high up, molested 2 women, everybody knows he did it. It went to court and he was found not guilty when some Garda friends went alibi for him despite him being witnessed in the place at that time. The neighborhood have shunned him though.

Very similar to the Dalkey horror house, it seems there is a Garda involved in that and has been protected for years. One of the victims has since committed suicide.

But in every profession there are the bad eggs its just unfortunate that it happens in the gards as people generally hold them to high regard, as they should.

Right now the feeling in the gards is pretty bad. Alot of them want to leave and have left. I think there will be changes afoot. I have been pretty much outspoken about them in my area as of recent, basically not doing the job properly. People getting robbed left right and centre with nothing being done.

But i was involved in an incident recently on the M50 when a guy jumped off a bridge to the ground, we nearly hit him, he ended up under our car. The garda were there in 2 minutes attending to him. He survived, so my hats off to them for that.

Muahahaha

Anyway back on topic. Indo poll came out this morning. It asked over 1000 people if the next Garda Commissioner should come from inside the force or be an external candidate. A large majority, 64%. said the candidate should come from outside the force. Only 27% of respondents thought the candidate should be internally sourced.

So essentially the public now view the senior ranks of AGS as so corrupt that they are not capable of reforming themselves. To me that is not surprising, you only have to look at the actions (or more to the point non-actions) of Noirin OSullivan since she became Acting Commissioner. It's just more of the same from the old boys brigade, nothing to see here, move along now.

Muahahaha

Deleted User wrote: »

I do know of a case about a retired Garda who was pretty high up, molested 2 women, everybody knows he did it. It went to court and he was found not guilty when some Garda friends went alibi for him despite him being witnessed in the place at that time. The neighborhood have shunned him though.

Very similar to the Dalkey horror house, it seems there is a Garda involved in that and has been protected for years. One of the victims has since committed suicide.

But in every profession there are the bad eggs its just unfortunate that it happens in the gards as people generally hold them to high regard, as they should.

Right now the feeling in the gards is pretty bad. Alot of them want to leave and have left. I think there will be changes afoot. I have been pretty much outspoken about them in my area as of recent, basically not doing the job properly. People getting robbed left right and centre with nothing being done.

But i was involved in an incident recently on the M50 when a guy jumped off a bridge to the ground, we nearly hit him, he ended up under our car. The garda were there in 2 minutes attending to him. He survived, so my hats off to them for that.

I think you've hot the nail on the head there, that's the paradox we are seeing with the Gardai at the moment. On the one hand we see incredible bravery on a pretty regular basis, like that off duty Garda who disarmed a bank robber in Drogheda last week. They are the true heroes of the force.

But on the other hand we're seeing a culture of corruption/malpractice or sheer incompetence. Sylvia Roche Kelly is dead because certain Gardai didn't perform their duties and that is just unacceptable in the eyes of the public. Another woman had her daughter raped by a neighbour and the Gardai failed to even investigate and then covered up by not cooperating with the GSOC investigation into the cover up, even GSOC gave up after four years of the Gardai not cooperating with them. Then we have Kieran Boylan in Dundalk with Gardai permitting him to import heroin so he could supply it to local dealers who they would then arrest to get promotions. Now Dundalk has a heroin problem because the very people who were supposed to be keeping it off the streets were responsible for getting it there.

The common thread that runs through all those incidents is a culture of omertà, as Judge Morris put it "loyalty over honesty". So when cases like the above emerge the instant reaction of senior Gardai was to cover up and pretend it didn't happen. Obfuscate and frustrate any investigations of GSOC, hell even bug them if you have to.

All those incidents are unacceptable to the general public. We deserve better and the hardworking honest Gardai who put themselves on the line everyday deserve better.

Shady Tady

Muahahaha wrote: »

Anyway back on topic. Indo poll came out this morning. It asked over 1000 people if the next Garda Commissioner should come from inside the force or be an external candidate. A large majority, 64%. said the candidate should come from outside the force. Only 27% of respondents thought the candidate should be internally sourced.

So essentially the public now view the senior ranks of AGS as so corrupt that they are not capable of reforming themselves. To me that is not surprising, you only have to look at the actions (or more to the point non-actions) of Noirin OSullivan since she became Acting Commissioner. It's just more of the same from the old boys brigade, nothing to see here, move along now.

And you think an outside commissioner will radically change things, horse****, there will still be political interference and that's the elephant in the room. It's the appointment of senior officers by cabinet that's the problem. Do you think a senior garda who is looking for promotion is going to rock the boat and talk about lack of resources. The next commissioner will stand beside the justice minister and rattle off the DOJ mantra of we have all the resources we need. When I hear that again the commissioner will lose my respect as a garda wherever they come from. But if it makes you feel better get an outside one!

Little CuChulainn

Muahahaha wrote: »

So you dont think that a girl who had just been sexually groped would think that the next step in the crime is rape ? If a man is willing to sexually grope a female well then he's certainly prepared to rape her- both actions show zero regard for her bodily integrity and are one and the same to any woman. The very fact she ran away up the street shows she was scared out of her wits. You seem to make light of the seriousness of it, I hope your daughter is never placed in that same situation, I'm sure if she was then you'd appreciate her fear of being raped.

No. Women do not assume the next step to being groped is being raped. That's a ridiculous notion and demonstrates how little you know about sexual assault or the victims of rape.

Deleted User wrote: »

When I got to Kingscourt I told the four lads they would have to get off it was the last stop. I still had about six locals on the bus who I was going to drop home because I would always leave them home. The four lads refused to get off when asked. The biggest lad kept saying to ring the Guards that he wasn't moving he wanted to be taken to Ardee. He refused to get off for about half an hour and the other people just got impatient as they wanted to get home so they got off. One girl was still on the bus she didn’t get off.

When the passengers were getting off the biggest lad groped another girl when she was getting off. The four lads were still on the bus at this stage. I then agreed to take them to Ardee and the lad sitting behind me said out loud to the other lads that ‘we'll pay her well if she does it’. The biggest lad then started shouting ‘she’s getting nothing off me I’ll just take the bus and take myself ****ing home’.

Are you for real? You call that a hijacking? This is the real problem with Garda bashing threads. People don't have a ****ing clue what they are talking about. They don't have a clue about the law or the courts or the criminal justice system outside what they see on Law and Order. They don't even understand the purpose of an arrest in Ireland. if you had arrested someone for hijacking and sexual assault based on that story you would be facing the loss of your own home in a civil case for false arrest and false imprisonment.

Muahahaha wrote: »

Sylvia Roche Kelly is dead because certain Gardai didn't perform their duties and that is just unacceptable in the eyes of the public.

She's dead because of Irelands bail laws.

RustyNut

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

No. Women do not assume the next step to being groped is being raped. That's a ridiculous notion and demonstrates how little you know about sexual assault or the victims of rape.



Are you for real? You call that a hijacking? This is the real problem with Garda bashing threads. People don't have a ****ing clue what they are talking about. They don't have a clue about the law or the courts or the criminal justice system outside what they see on Law and Order. They don't even understand the purpose of an arrest in Ireland. if you had arrested someone for hijacking and sexual assault based on that story you would be facing the loss of your own home in a civil case for false arrest and false imprisonment.



She's dead because of Irelands bail laws.

Can you link to a case where a Garda lost their home in a civil case for false arrest or did you just make that up?

Little CuChulainn

RustyNut wrote: »

Can you link to a case where a Garda lost their home in a civil case for false arrest or did you just make that up?

Make what up? A Garda can be held personally liable for a civil case if he is deemed to have acted against procedure. Fortunately there hasn't been a case where it's been necessary, proabably because most Gardaí aren't stupid enough to do something like arrest a drunk taxi fare for hijacking, but that doesn't mean it's not a danger.

RustyNut

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Make what up? A Garda can be held personally liable for a civil case if he is deemed to have acted against procedure. Fortunately there hasn't been a case where it's been necessary, proabably because most Gardaí aren't stupid enough to do something like arrest a drunk taxi fare for hijacking, but that doesn't mean it's not a danger.

So no Garda has actually lost their own property for false arrest, a bit like the guerin report doesn't actually say that Sargent Mcabe is a bad Sargent.

Some people really seem to follow the garda management policy of loyalty over honesty.

Little CuChulainn

RustyNut wrote: »

So no Garda has actually lost their own property for false arrest, a bit like the guerin report doesn't actually say that Sargent Mcabe is a bad Sargent.

Some people really seem to follow the garda management policy of loyalty over honesty.

I've been completely honest. If you can quote a single sentence from me that was not honest then please do.

The fact is that the Guerin report does reflect poorly on McCabe and if you'd bothered to read the sections I highlighted you would see that Guerin himself comments on McCabes suggested charges saying "it was never a likely charge". It's not my fault that you are so tunnel visioned that you ignore everything that doesn't suit your agenda. The fact that you trust a few comments from supervisors in a report about the ineffectiveness of supervisors just shows how hypocritical you are. Unless you are going to quote a single dishonest thing i have said or argue the points I raised from the Guerin report I have no desire to continue feeding you.

And as to civil liability of Gardaí, this is a measure introduced in the Garda Síochana Act. Every Garda knows they can be held personally liable for a civil case where they have been dishonest, corrupt or negligent. Perhaps you do not know the cost of a civil case but I can assure you it would indeed put your home in jeopardy. If you've satisfied yourself that it can't happen because it hasn't before then I don't know what to say. I don't see how I can argue with someone who only believes in precedent and can't look ahead to future consequences.

Muahahaha

Shady Tady wrote: »

And you think an outside commissioner will radically change things, horse****, there will still be political interference and that's the elephant in the room. It's the appointment of senior officers by cabinet that's the problem. Do you think a senior garda who is looking for promotion is going to rock the boat and talk about lack of resources. The next commissioner will stand beside the justice minister and rattle off the DOJ mantra of we have all the resources we need. When I hear that again the commissioner will lose my respect as a garda wherever they come from. But if it makes you feel better get an outside one!

Depends who is recruited. If the Minister for Justice really wants a strong leader to reform the force then they should be looking at someone of the calibre of Nuala o'Loan, she has proved herself to be competent at re-organising dysfunctional police forces and would take no sh1t from any politician, she knows her job and knows how to get it done and her previous track record and reputation stands her well in that regard. Or there is the former chief of the Boston police, he too reformed much corruption in his force. There's no lack of good candidates going to be applying for this, nobody in the senior ranks of AGS has the experience of reforming an entire police force so it's pretty clear that the MoJ has little choice but to go outside the force as there is a lack of proven talent there to get the job done.

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

No. Women do not assume the next step to being groped is being raped. That's a ridiculous notion and demonstrates how little you know about sexual assault or the victims of rape.

How do you know what all women think. Are you seriously trying to tell me that a woman who had just been groped in a dark alleyway wouldn't be in fear of being raped ? As I said previously groping happens a lot in nightclubs, pubs, etc where the potential to rape isn't present. But introduce the potential and opportunity to rape and I can assure you that any woman who has been sexually groped is now in fear of being raped, or worse. You seem to just take such crimes against women lightly, which is pretty much how Gardai over the decades have treated a lot of crimes against women.

She's dead because of Irelands bail laws.

Well plenty of journalists are reporting that she is dead because the Gardai failed to inform the judge that her eventual murderer was already out on bail for violently assaulting a female taxi driver in Cavan. He had just kidnapped and abducted a 5 year old child in Tipperary and Gardai failed to inform the judge that he was already out on bail according to the newspapers. Further to this the Garda in Cavan who dealt with the violent assault in Cavan listed it on Pulse as a minor assault. The female taxi driver was beaten black and blue by him, her hair was pulled out and the perpetrator had his dick out of his pants ready to rape her and the Garda listed it as a minor assault ? It's pretty obvious what happened here, incompetence in Cavan led to incompetence in Tipperary which led to Sylvia Roche Kelly being murdered.
Anyway it's all before the High Court on June 30 so let the judge decide, either way the Gardai are not going to come out of this incident glowing.

Little CuChulainn

Muahahaha wrote: »

How do you know what all women think. Are you seriously trying to tell me that a woman who had just been groped in a dark alleyway wouldn't be in fear of being raped ? As I said previously groping happens a lot in nightclubs, pubs, etc where the potential to rape isn't present. But introduce the potential and opportunity to rape and I can assure you that any woman who has been sexually groped is now in fear of being raped, or worse. You seem to just take such crimes against women lightly, which is pretty much how Gardai over the decades have treated a lot of crimes against women.

Hang on there, it was you who stated how all women think. I merely rebuked it. But of course it suits you to ignore that. And I see you've moved the situation to a dark alley to suit your view too. Anything else you'd like to add to make it more to your liking? And of course you then try to strawman everything by saying I take crimes against women lightly just to further drag us away from the issue.

Muahahaha wrote: »

Well plenty of journalists are reporting that she is dead because the Gardai failed to inform the judge that her eventual murderer was already out on bail for violently assaulting a female taxi driver in Cavan. He had just kidnapped and abducted a 5 year old child in Tipperary and Gardai failed to inform the judge that he was already out on bail according to the newspapers. Further to this the Garda in Cavan who dealt with the violent assault in Cavan listed it on Pulse as a minor assault. The female taxi driver was beaten black and blue by him, her hair was pulled out and the perpetrator had his dick out of his pants ready to rape her and the Garda listed it as a minor assault ? It's pretty obvious what happened here, incompetence in Cavan led to incompetence in Tipperary which led to Sylvia Roche Kelly being murdered.
Anyway it's all before the High Court on June 30 so let the judge decide, either way the Gardai are not going to come out of this incident glowing.

I don't care what plenty of journalists are reporting. Much like yourself they likely didn't read the Guerin report or check into bail laws in Ireland. Sure why would they when it's obvious that people will lap up what ever they say as gospel. McGrath was up on serious charges after being caught in the act trying to abduct a kid from their home, he had no home address and had admitted the charge and the judge still gave him bail for a mere €2,200. Do you honestly think the judge would have changed his mind on bail just because he had assaulted someone? It's irrelevant anyway because you can't use it against him in a bail hearing as he is entitled to the presumption of innocence on it. This is all in the Guerin report by the way, from Chapter 6.45 onwards.

I hope they do win the case and I hope they don't settle. It's about time the absurdity of bail laws in Ireland was tackled.

kumate_champ07

I got a call from a private number today, answered it and it was local garda station.

someone was doing a cleanup and found my wallet from a few years ago. at the time I lost it in a taxi, it had my passport and bankcard. turns out they had my number on file anyway from when I was knocked down by a van, but they didnt bother to type my name into the system or even call my bank. had to pay for a new passport, the lost passport is still in date but had been canceled when I got the new one


is there any reason to make a complaint, its not like theyll refund me the passport fee. the taxi man probably dropped in the passport within 48hrs and I didnt order a new one for a while

carzony

All I'll say is that Gardai are not respected by the general public now more than ever. I think it's a pity but I also believe that there are **** in the force that deserve that kind of treatment. It's just a pity that hardworking, sound garda seem to always be on the recieving end of it.

The best example I have is that last week one of the soundest guards in my area was in the school showing off the new hyundai and taking pics with some of the kids in the school. When all of a sudden a group of young lads started shouting over calling her a lesbian and a scumbag. To me that just shows a serious lack of respect and fear.

Little CuChulainn

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Are you for real? You call that a hijacking?

I call it a group of threatening men using the threat of force (certainly the witness was afraid) to make the driver of the vehicle take it to somewhere they were not intending to go, and refusing to leave the vehicle when asked.

I don't know if a false imprisonment and hi-jacking charge would stick, but I would not condemn a guard who wanted to investigate that. If a bunch of drunk lads walk into my house and refuse to leave what is the charge btw? Or has no offence been committed?

YOU called it "the case where the woman was slapped on the arse in the taxi". Do you stand by that description? You keep telling people to read the report but when I did I discovered it was radically different from your description. You are a liar, a spoofer, a clown and it is absolutely transparent that you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

So in conclusion, I guess you must be a guard.

Little CuChulainn

Deleted User wrote: »

I call it a group of threatening men using the threat of force (certainly the witness was afraid) to make the driver of the vehicle take it to somewhere they were not intending to go, and refusing to leave the vehicle when asked.

I don't know if a false imprisonment and hi-jacking charge would stick, but I would not condemn a guard who wanted to investigate that. If a bunch of drunk lads walk into my house and refuse to leave what is the charge btw? Or has no offence been committed?

You might not condemn a Garda in such a situation but your view is not really relevant. It would be a judge and jury that would condemn them. You're talking about arresting someone for hijacking for not getting out of a taxi. Your false imprisonment and sexual assault charge would go nowhere without a victim statement. At this stage I think you must be just arguing for the sake of it. There's no way you can believe that would be a hijacking.

The charge would be trespassing.

Kaizersoze81

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I got a call from a private number today, answered it and it was local garda station.

someone was doing a cleanup and found my wallet from a few years ago. at the time I lost it in a taxi, it had my passport and bankcard. turns out they had my number on file anyway from when I was knocked down by a van, but they didnt bother to type my name into the system or even call my bank. had to pay for a new passport, the lost passport is still in date but had been canceled when I got the new one


is there any reason to make a complaint, its not like theyll refund me the passport fee. the taxi man probably dropped in the passport within 48hrs and I didnt order a new one for a while

Who lost the wallet again... You ? I've seen it all now. And you want to make a complaint about it? How about taking some personal responsibility.

StinkyMunkey

Kaizersoze81 wrote: »

Who lost the wallet again... You ? I've seen it all now. And you want to make a complaint about it? How about taking some personal responsibility.

Agreed.

People moan and whinge about the Gardi, but at the first sign of trouble, they ring looking for them. No one rings the Gardi because they are having a good time, they are like societies rubbish collectors, they clean up others peoples mess or deal with constant abuse or threat of violence.

I know they are not all saints, but the Gardi are generally only going to have interaction with you if your breaking the law or have been a victim of someone breaking the law.

RustyNut

Deleted User wrote: »

YOU called it "the case where the woman was slapped on the arse in the taxi". Do you stand by that description? You keep telling people to read the report but when I did I discovered it was radically different from your description. You are a liar, a spoofer, a clown and it is absolutely transparent that you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

So in conclusion, I guess you must be a guard.

You need to put on your blue goggles and read it again.
The report "actually states" that Sargent Mcabe is an excellent Sargent (as linked above) but that obviously means that he is a bad Sargent. You just need to read it properly.

And just for the record I have red it.

Little CuChulainn

RustyNut wrote: »

You need to put on your blue goggles and read it again.
The report "actually states" that Sargent Mcabe is an excellent Sargent (as linked above) but that obviously means that he is a bad Sargent. You just need to read it properly.

And just for the record I have red it.

Perhaps you can answer me three simple questions. They are simple yes/no questions.

1) Do you think a sergeant who does not know the law is a good sergeant?

2) Do you think a sergeant who watches probationers do things detrimental to a case instead of assisting them is a good sergeant?

3) Do you think a sergeant who advises gardaí to arrest people for the wrong crimes, risking a civil case, is a good sergeant?

Tail Docker

Kaizersoze81 wrote: »

Who lost the wallet again... You ? I've seen it all now. And you want to make a complaint about it? How about taking some personal responsibility.

How about they bothered following up and making sure it got back to it's owner promptly? Too much to ask? Feck off is it. Try "losing" a form they are looking for off you, see how well they take that little "delay".

sepp_blatter

StinkyMunkey wrote: »

Agreed.

People moan and whinge about the Gardi, but at the first sign of trouble, they ring looking for them. No one rings the Gardi because they are having a good time, they are like societies rubbish collectors, they clean up others peoples mess or deal with constant abuse or threat of violence.

I know they are not all saints, but the Gardi are generally only going to have interaction with you if your breaking the law or have been a victim of someone breaking the law.

generally yes but no always , i have a conviction from 2005 ( was struck out once i paid a fine ) for defending myself against an assault on my own property , the guards chose not to hand my medical evidence into court , the guy who punched me has friends high up in the force , now granted my solicitor was hopeless and i was naive and foolishly didnt appeal but the point is , you can be innocent and still find yourself being victimised by police

btw , the same guards arrested me less than three years ago for buying a coke in a shop and left me in a cell for three hours , the same guy who punched me on my own property told them i made a threatening gesture towards him outside the same shop , i didnt even see the guy but CCTV showed we were both in the same shop at the same time , he claimed i did it outside the shop , i was interviewed for an hour and a half about that

i was prepared the second time , had a good solicitor and avoided a stitch up

RustyNut

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Perhaps you can answer me three simple questions. They are simple yes/no questions.

1) Do you think a sergeant who does not know the law is a good sergeant?

2) Do you think a sergeant who watches probationers do things detrimental to a case instead of assisting them is a good sergeant?

3) Do you think a sergeant who advises gardaí to arrest people for the wrong crimes, risking a civil case, is a good sergeant?

I don't see the relevance of answering hypothetical questions, better stick to the facts.

Your colleague stated this.

The report that was released showed him as someone who was not capable of making correct decisions, someone with poor interpersonal skills and someone who was not a very good Sergeant

.

You stated that the report in question was the Guerin report which states the following about Sg Mcabes performance as a member of AGS as assessed by senior members who worked with him over several years.

20.5 It should be recorded here that the Byrne-McGinn report found that:
"No malice on the part of Sergeant McCabe is established in the
making of his various complaints."
20.6 The time I have spent with Sergeant McCabe in the course of extensive
interviews has led me to no different conclusion. That said, the better
view, in any event, is likely to be the testimony of the men and women who
worked with Sergeant McCabe in the years before he made the complaints
that have been examined in this report.
20.7 The Byrne-McGinn investigation received statements from all of the District
Officers who had responsibility for Bailieboro District between 2003 and
2010. Chief Superintendent Gabriel Mclntyre said:
"I found Sergeant McCabe to be very positive and energetic in his
position. He displayed a strong work ethic with a strong emphasis in
community policing and to providing a high standard of policing to
the community."
20.8 Detective Superintendent Eugene Corcoran said:
"I found Sergeant McCabe to be capable and enthusiastic in his
approach to his duties. At all times I found him to be efficient. . . . I
would assess his performance very positively. In my experience he
was hard working and efficient. He understood the need to keep the
District Officer advised of all matters requiring attention at
Superintendent Level. . . . I found him to be very interested in his
work and in ensuring that matters were attended to promptly."
I 20.9 Retired Superintendent Liam Hogan said:
"I considered Sergeant McCabe to be an excellent Sergeant and
member of An Garda Siochana. He offered 200% commitment and was
my one of my most reliable members in the District. I relied on him, I
trusted him implicitly and I listened to his advice. . . . He was full of
enthusiasm with a very positive attitude. I was aware that he worked Chapter 20 Conclusions and Recommendations
hard and long hours displaying absolute loyalty and commitment to
An Garda Siochana, to the management team in the District, to his
colleagues and to the people of Balieboro. He took a particular
interest in the work progress and welfare of junior members in the
District HQ."
20.10 Superintendent M Lernihan said:
"I found [Sergeant McCabe] to be efficient, flexible and committed.
He was diligent in the performance of his duties. He encouraged and
directed those under his supervision and had a good working
relationship with the other Sergeants."

.

Little CuChulainn

RustyNut wrote: »

I don't see the relevance of answering hypothetical questions, better stick to the facts.

Your colleague stated this.

.

You stated that the report in question was the Guerin report which states the following about Sg Mcabes performance as a member of AGS as assessed by senior members who worked with him over several years.

I didn't think I'd get a simple answer to a simple question. Someone stated that the report showed him as a bad sergeant. I explained where in the report this showed and you have simply ignored it and resorted to personal remarks and insults. So I'll leave you to your little circle jerk.

micksy for pres

I don't think any country truely likes their police force and this is true the world over. When you look at the power abuse and corruption within some police forces in South America I think the guards aren't too bad a bunch

RustyNut

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Someone stated that the report showed him as a bad sergeant. I explained where in the report this showed.

You didn't show anything.
I'm still waiting for a quote that backs up your assertion that he is a bad Sargent etc because having read the entire report I don't believing it is there.

sepp_blatter

micksy for pres wrote: »

I don't think any country truely likes their police force and this is true the world over. When you look at the power abuse and corruption within some police forces in South America I think the guards aren't too bad a bunch

well its always a good idea to use poor practice as a yardstick

Little CuChulainn

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I didn't think I'd get a simple answer to a simple question. Someone stated that the report showed him as a bad sergeant. I explained where in the report this showed and you have simply ignored it and resorted to personal remarks and insults. So I'll leave you to your little circle jerk.

You keep 'explaining it' by offering us ludicrous simplifications of what is actually in the report as fact. For example "the case where the women got her arse grabbed in a taxi".

You are consistently lying to us. Quote the report. Quote the relevant sections (not hard to do - you pretended it was somehow difficult but I managed it and I am not a professional) and then tell us how you reach your conclusions.

Like I said, until you can you are a spoofer.

Little CuChulainn

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Perhaps you can answer me three simple questions. They are simple yes/no questions.

1) Do you think a sergeant who does not know the law is a good sergeant?

2) Do you think a sergeant who watches probationers do things detrimental to a case instead of assisting them is a good sergeant?

3) Do you think a sergeant who advises gardaí to arrest people for the wrong crimes, risking a civil case, is a good sergeant?

These are conclusions that you are drawing that the report does not draw.

In the specific case of the taxi, Guerin concludes that the investigation was poor and that McCabe's complaint was justified.

You are an anonymous internet spoofer.

Guerin is a Senior Counsel given access to all the relevant evidence.

The case rests, your honour.

Little CuChulainn

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

But because you asked nicely I'll highlight the three specific failings I mentioned.

Suggesting an arrest for hijacking, false imprisonment and sexual assault in a case where a woman was grabbed on the ass - 4.8

Guerin on this case:

"I note that the account of the incident contained in the dossier does not include an allegation of sexual assault, whereas Sergeant McCabe's complaint to Chief Superintendent McGinn did make that allegation. My reading of the statement of Ms Green identifies three separate assaults.

Two of them are reasonably capable of being seen as sexual assaults. The third cannot be confidently categorised without a statement from the person involved, which was never obtained, but the surrounding circumstances are strongly suggestive of sexual assault"

....
"In all the circumstances, I am of the opinion that there is cause for concern as to the adequacy of the investigation of the complaints made by Sergeant McCabe in
relation to this incident and a sufficient basis fo concern as to whether all appropriate steps were taken by AGS to investigate and address the specified complaints"


Does that address your concern about Garda McCabe's failings at all? You know, the fact that a senior counsel in possession of all the evidence agrees with his complaint?

Like I said, spoofer.

Shady Tady

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Guerin on this case:

"I note that the account of the incident contained in the dossier does not include an allegation of sexual assault, whereas Sergeant McCabe's complaint to Chief Superintendent McGinn did make that allegation. My reading of the statement of Ms Green identifies three separate assaults.

Two of them are reasonably capable of being seen as sexual assaults. The third cannot be confidently categorised without a statement from the person involved, which was never obtained, but the surrounding circumstances are strongly suggestive of sexual assault"

....
"In all the circumstances, I am of the opinion that there is cause for concern as to the adequacy of the investigation of the complaints made by Sergeant McCabe in
relation to this incident and a sufficient basis fo concern as to whether all appropriate steps were taken by AGS to investigate and address the specified complaints"


Does that address your concern about Garda McCabe's failings at all? You know, the fact that a senior counsel in possession of all the evidence agrees with his complaint?

Like I said, spoofer.

I'm sure another senior counsel would give a different opinion if he was paid!

Little CuChulainn

You asked me to quote the sections where it showed him as a bed sergeant and I did that. You have decided to quote me parts where it says he's good. I don't dispute those. But you are ignoring the parts I quoted completely such as 7.15 where Guerin comments on McCabes lack of understanding of a charge he recommended. If you're happy to look at it with rose tinted glasses then go ahead. The only reason you are doing it is because it suits you too. I doubt in the case of any other Garda you would balance the good with the bad. I think you would judge them solely on the bad.

Little CuChulainn

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You asked me to quote the sections where it showed him as a bed sergeant and I did that. You have decided to quote me parts where it says he's good. I don't dispute those. But you are ignoring the parts I quoted completely such as 7.15 where Guerin comments on McCabes lack of understanding of a charge he recommended. If you're happy to look at it with rose tinted glasses then go ahead. The only reason you are doing it is because it suits you too. I doubt in the case of any other Garda you would balance the good with the bad. I think you would judge them solely on the bad.

This is 7.15, why don't you read it paying special attention to the words "possible" and "direction was then sought"

"The report noted that possible offences to be charged were assault causing harm, endangerment, criminal damage, theft, and possibly an offence contrary to Section 6(3)(b) of the non-fatal Offences Against the Person Act 1997 (The latter offence relates to spraying or pouring bodily fluids onto a person during the course of a syringe attack. Although it is a rare statutory reference to the use of bodily fluids to commit crime it was never a likely charge in the absence of a syringe.)

Direction was then sought as to an appropriate offence with an indication that upon receipt of direction a full investigation file would be forwarded to the DPP"

Guerin's comment is an aside, and it is clear that McCabe is outlining some possible offences that may be relevant and seeking direction rather than insisting that certain of these offences have taken place and must be prosecuted.

Yet again you have either failed to read the report properly or have deliberately attempted to mislead people on this thread by presenting a conclusion that the text does not warrant.

Spoofer

Little CuChulainn

Deleted User wrote: »

This is 7.15, why don't you read it paying special attention to the words "possible" and "direction was then sought"

"The report noted that possible offences to be charged were assault causing harm, endangerment, criminal damage, theft, and possibly an offence contrary to Section 6(3)(b) of the non-fatal Offences Against the Person Act 1997 (The latter offence relates to spraying or pouring bodily fluids onto a person during the course of a syringe attack. Although it is a rare statutory reference to the use of bodily fluids to commit crime it was never a likely charge in the absence of a syringe.)

Direction was then sought as to an appropriate offence with an indication that upon receipt of direction a full investigation file would be forwarded to the DPP"

Guerin's comment is an aside, and it is clear that McCabe is outlining some possible offences that may be relevant and seeking direction rather than insisting that certain of these offences have taken place and must be prosecuted.

Yet again you have either failed to read the report properly or have deliberately attempted to mislead people on this thread by presenting a conclusion that the text does not warrant.

Spoofer

Did you even read it? It relates to a syringe attack. He specifically stated it. You quoted it. There was no syringe. It was not a possible charge. The direction is sought after the arrest and detention so if McCabes advice had been followed and he had been detained in relation to that offence when there was clearly no syringe involved then it would have been a false arrest. What about that are you not understanding?

Little CuChulainn

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Did you even read it? It relates to a syringe attack. He specifically stated it. You quoted it. There was no syringe. It was not a possible charge. The direction is sought after the arrest and detention so if McCabes advice had been followed and he had been detained in relation to that offence when there was clearly no syringe involved then it would have been a false arrest. What about that are you not understanding?

Guerin feels it "was never a likely charge", and this is reflected in the language describing the report as suggesting it as a 'possible' charge. He makes no criticism of McCabe, he is simply clarifying that he doesn't think this charge was likely.

At this point I suppose my question to you is - is this all you have? Are your attacks on McCabe now reduced to whether a particular charge he suggested might be applicable was either totally impossible or unlikely?

You started out with these bold statements, anyone who reads the report can immediately see they fall somewhere between outright lies and gross simplifications.

You are embarrassing yourself on here - maybe you should go out and catch some criminals?

RustyNut

Deleted User wrote: »

Guerin feels it "was never a likely charge", and this is reflected in the language describing the report as suggesting it as a 'possible' charge. He makes no criticism of McCabe, he is simply clarifying that he doesn't think this charge was likely.

At this point I suppose my question to you is - is this all you have? Are your attacks on McCabe now reduced to whether a particular charge he suggested might be applicable was either totally impossible or unlikely?

You started out with these bold statements, anyone who reads the report can immediately see they fall somewhere between outright lies and gross simplifications.

You are embarrassing yourself on here - maybe you should go out and catch some criminals?

From Here.

What is Workplace Bullying?

The purpose of bullying is to hide inadequacy. It has nothing to do with managing: Management is managing; bullying is not managing. Anyone who chooses to bully implicitly admits their inadequacy.

Some people project their inadequacy onto others:

to avoid facing up to and doing something about it;
to avoid accepting responsibility for their behaviour and the effect it has; and
to dilute their fear of being seen as weak, inadequate and possibly incompetent; and
to divert attention away from the same: In badly run workplaces, bullying is the way that inadequate, incompetent and aggressive employees keep their jobs and obtain promotion.
Bullying destroys teams, causing disenchantment, demoralisation, demotivation, disaffection, and alienation. Bullies run dysfunctional and inefficient organisations; staff turnover and sickness absence are high whilst morale, productivity and profitability are low. Any perceived efficiency gains from bullying are a short term illusion: Long term prospects are always at serious risk.

Bullying behaviours are behind all forms of harassment, discrimination, prejudice, abuse, persecution, terrorism, conflict and violence. Understanding bullying gives a person the opportunity to understand that which underpins almost all forms of reprehensible behavior. Because of that, bullying remains the single most important social issue of today.

Workplace Bullying tends to happen in phases that can be called (1) Isolation, (2) Control and Subjugation and (3) Elimination. The terminology in the examples applies to workplaces but has parallels in other situations. Examples are loosely categorised under the "Phase" headings but in reality any of the example behaviours can occur in any phase.

Isolation

constant nit-picking, fault-finding and criticism of a trivial nature - the triviality, regularity and frequency betray bullying; often there is a grain of truth (but only a grain) in the criticism to fool the people (including the target) into believing the criticism has validity, which it does not; often, the criticism is based on distortion, misrepresentation or fabrication.
simultaneous with the criticism, a persistent refusal to acknowledge the target and his or her contributions and achievements or to recognise their existence and value;
constant attempts to undermine the target and his or her position, status, worth, value and potential where the target is in a group (eg at work),
being isolated and separated from colleagues, excluded from what's going on, marginalized, overruled, ignored, sidelined, frozen out, "sent to Coventry"
The above can be done with or without the cover of a formal disciplinary or capability procedure.

Control and Subjugation

being singled out and treated differently; for instance, everyone else can get away with murder but the moment the target puts a foot wrong - however trivial - action is taken against them;
being belittled, demeaned and patronised, especially in front of others;
being humiliated, shouted at and threatened, often in front of others being overloaded with work, or having all their work taken away and replaced with either menial tasks (filing, photocopying, minute taking) or with no work at all finding that their work, and the credit for it, is stolen and plagiarised;
having responsibility increased but authority removed;
having annual leave, sickness leave, and (especially) compassionate leave refused
being denied training necessary to fulfill duties
having unrealistic goals set, which change as they approach, also deadlines change at short notice, or no notice, and the target only finds out when its too late to do anything about it.
being the subject of gossip which has the effect of damaging one's reputation.
Elimination

the target finds that everything they say and do is twisted, distorted and misrepresented;
is subjected to disciplinary procedures with verbal or written warnings imposed for trivial or fabricated reasons and without proper investigation, or with a sham investigation;
is coerced into leaving through no fault of their own, constructive dismissal, early or ill-health retirement, etc
is dismissed following specious allegations of misconduct or incapability which have just a grain of truth, to give superficial legitimacy to the dismissal.
One way to conceal bullying is to have regular or even continuous "reorganisations", where:-

targets can be "organized out" - this applies to anyone whose face doesn't fit, i.e. anyone who has identified, complained about or challenged problems with the status quo;
they can have their roles "regraded" or "redefined", if not being organised out.
The bully's allies and political pawns can be promoted to positions of influence.
Where a re-organisation seems pointless or counter-productive, or if it involves a disproportionate amount of disruption in relation to the perceived benefit of the change, it could be a smokescreen to conceal (and be a vehicle of) bullying. People are so busy coping with the chaos that bullying goes unnoticed. At the same time, the person responsible can claim to be reorganising in the name of efficiency, thus earning him or her the respect of superiors.

Business stakeholders should note that bullying, and these forms of concealment, may be distracting attention from financial fraud, corruption, misappropriation of funds and so on.