Looks like Revenue are in a spot of bother

andrewdeerpark

sock puppet wrote: »

Yeah they EU are clearly in the right here.

I mean, when an Irish politician introduces tax breaks to incentivise companies to invest, they should be investigated. When a politician from Luxembourg introduces much more aggressive tax breaks, they should be made president of the European Commision. Such fairness and impartiality from the EU is to be lauded.

Their is no evidence that Ireland is being singled out Netherlands included aswell. The EU engages in investigations across a lot of countries and sectors all the time, argument does not make a lot of sense.

Ireland is one of the worse offenders and it is the US that kicked the whole thing off with congressional hearings about the low corporation TAX being paid by US companies funneling money through Ireland. Google John McCain on it...

Iwasfrozen

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Apple has approx $140Billion US in cash just sitting their as of last year (it has grown since). Is that effective use of money?

Would some of that not be better invested in schools, health, transport and infrastructure? Not all TAX is bad we need taxation for our services unless you want to privatize and put a price on everything (a different argument outside this topic).

I accept some public service inefficiencies however private sector has issues just look are American healthcare and the mess that is in..

I don't know what they plan on doing with their 140 billion (which you didn't back up btw) so I can't answer that question.

The argument isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be, Apple with lower taxes is at liberty to raise wages for their employees at attract better talent, raising aggregate demand in the country and benefiting the government indirectly through increased revenue.

Or they may decide to invest the money into R&D to produce new inventions that make our lives better.

When you're talking about taxation always remember money always comes from somewhere, if you take money from person A to provide mostly inefficient public services you frustrate person A's plans to invest that money to grow their business. Apply this over the whole economy and you'll find that higher taxes = lower growth.

steddyeddy

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This whole corporation tax business is f*cking ridiculous. If other countries for one reason or another can't compete with Ireland, tough sh!t - there are plenty of strings countries like Germany pull with regard to the ECB which Irish people would love to do something about but we can't. This is something we have control over which they don't, so unless they want to compromise on bank debt and bondholders, they can f*ck right off.

I agree 100%

Piliger

dissed doc wrote: »

I don't think it's a good policy for the government to be basing our economy on potentially alterable tax policies for (predominantly) US multinationals. They will move wherever they get the best deal. If that changes (and it can change) there is too little actual industry to support normal (minimal) services.

Well we have proved you are wrong. We have attracted multinational jobs to Ireland that have stayed here for many decades. So "potentially alterable tax policies" have been a huge success.

Otherwise it's just bravado, saying other countries get better deals, pull strings as well. It's simply stupid to have a country depending on a trickle of multinationals. We need actual products to sell, high quality, small scale as we are not really an industrialised country.

And yet we have had far more than a trickle of multinationals. Proving a second time that the policy has worked extremely well.

Instead the policies are decided by pissed up politicians at some parties in the US, meeting representatives from Dell or Microsoft and signing deals where the country long term loses out as we lack the development of local industry and short term we get some jabs and jabs are important if you want de votes.

Where is the evidence of any of this ? How have we lost out from having tens of thousands of people employed for decades, paying huge amounts of taxes, creating tens of thousands more ancillary jobs ?
The truth is that our political decisions have been extraordinarily successful, evidenced by the irritation of France and Germany and some other countries.

Piliger

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Apple has approx $140Billion US in cash just sitting their as of last year (it has grown since). Is that effective use of money?

That's their business. They earned it. It's their money to do with what they want to. Unless you want the governments deciding hw much money you are entitled to earn and save ? Is that it ?

Would some of that not be better invested in schools, health, transport and infrastructure? Not all TAX is bad we need taxation for our services unless you want to privatize and put a price on everything (a different argument outside this topic).

That sounds more like an appalling perverted form of stalinism. than anything else.

I accept some public service inefficiencies however private sector has issues just look are American healthcare and the mess that is in..

The American Healthcare is extremely profitable and successful. What are you talking about ?

Piliger

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Here the price...
Apple paid $36m tax on $7.11bn profits at Irish unit



http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/apple-paid-36m-tax-on-7-11bn-profits-at-irish-unit-1.1715727


Is that worth letting slide? Is would call that taking the p**s.

What a nonsense article built around a completely concocted claim about unquoted Apple accounts.

Is it worth letting what slide exactly ? Are you seriously suggesting that Apple would have continued operating here if higher taxes were announced ? and that ANY additional money would have ensued ? Can anyone be really that naive ?

andrewdeerpark

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't know what they plan on doing with their 140 billion (which you didn't back up btw) so I can't answer that question.

The argument isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be, Apple with lower taxes is at liberty to raise wages for their employees at attract better talent, raising aggregate demand in the country and benefiting the government indirectly through increased revenue.

Or they may decide to invest the money into R&D to produce new inventions that make our lives better.

When you're talking about taxation always remember money always comes from somewhere, if you take money from person A to provide mostly inefficient public services you frustrate person A's plans to invest that money to grow their business. Apply this over the whole economy and you'll find that higher taxes = lower growth.

What is not in dispute is the rise in income inequality and the drop in the standard of living in the developed world since about the 1970's. The power of corporations and the way they play governments off against each other using clever accountants and lawyers is one of the main reasons though corporate profits have never been higher, the TAX take from these corporations is getting lower. Something has to be done GLOBALLY or the system will eventually collapse. Individual workers cannot take more taxation.

You are correct on the higher taxes on work leading to lower growth.

The insular argument its the EU picking on us is nonsense in the global scheme of things.

Tail Docker

Piliger wrote: »

What a nonsense article built around a completely concocted claim about unquoted Apple accounts.

Is it worth letting what slide exactly ? Are you seriously suggesting that Apple would have continued operating here if higher taxes were announced ? and that ANY additional money would have ensued ? Can anyone be really that naive ?

Golly gosh Piliger, what socking good points you make old chap, I say, you're awfully clever, aren't you. Good for you I say, good for you. Hooray.

andrewdeerpark

Piliger wrote: »

That's their business. They earned it. It's their money to do with what they want to. Unless you want the governments deciding hw much money you are entitled to earn and save ? Is that it ?

That sounds more like an appalling perverted form of stalinism. than anything else.

The American Healthcare is extremely profitable and successful. What are you talking about ?

- The global hoarding of cash by corporations is a serious issue as a previous poster said an excellent book from Thomas Piketty required reading.

- Private sector is not suited to certain tasks as they are not capitalist style profitable ventures.

- As for the American Healthcare system just don't get sick without health insurance and when you are sick expect your insurance to be cancelled if you cost to much, again some more reading required.

Rhys Essien

Tail Docker wrote: »

Cash stockpiling is currently one of the greatest global problems we face. It is concentrating liquidity into the hands of a tiny few, to the detriment of the many. Piketty has a view on it. The old quote that money is like manure, pile it up and it stinks, spread it around and it causes growth, is very apt.

I heard recently,something like,the top 80 billionaires in the world are richer combined,than 40% of the worlds population.Fairly sad.

Piliger

Tail Docker wrote: »

Golly gosh Piliger, what socking good points you make old chap, I say, you're awfully clever, aren't you. Good for you I say, good for you. Hooray.

Are you some kind of D4 snob ?

Iwasfrozen

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

What is not in dispute is the rise in income inequality and the drop in the standard of living in the developed world since about the 1970's. The power of corporations and the way they play governments off against each other using clever accountants and lawyers is one of the main reasons though corporate profits have never been higher, the TAX take from these corporations is getting lower. Something has to be done GLOBALLY or the system will eventually collapse. Individual workers cannot take more taxation.

You are correct on the higher taxes on work leading to lower growth.

The insular argument its the EU picking on us is nonsense in the global scheme of things.

Income inequality has risen yes. But the standard of living has improved constantly in nearly every country in the world since the seventies.

Why does it matter if income inequality is growing if the poor are also getting richer?

andrewdeerpark

Piliger wrote: »

What a nonsense article built around a completely concocted claim about unquoted Apple accounts.

Is it worth letting what slide exactly ? Are you seriously suggesting that Apple would have continued operating here if higher taxes were announced ? and that ANY additional money would have ensued ? Can anyone be really that naive ?

Sorry was the article retracted an apology give to Apple and the Irish Times sued? Or did I miss that.....

Karl Stein

Piliger wrote: »

The American Healthcare is extremely profitable and successful.

Dear dear deary me. When I read stupidity like this I truly think we're doomed as a species.

andrewdeerpark

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Income inequality has risen yes. But the standard of living has improved constantly in nearly every country in the world since the seventies.

Why does it matter if income inequality is growing if the poor are also getting richer?

In developed countries the middle classes are getting poorer that is what matters so while yes a certain standard of living is being achieved by more, getting beyond that to the middle income is a lot harder.

Piliger

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

- The global hoarding of cash by corporations is a serious issue as a previous poster said an excellent book from Thomas Piketty required reading.

he's an idiot and has been denounced by most reputable economists.

- Private sector is not suited to certain tasks as they are not capitalist style profitable ventures.

Like what ?

As for the American Healthcare system just don't get sick without health insurance and when you are sick expect your insurance to be cancelled if you cost to much, again some more reading required.

So you admit that you were wrong. You said "however private sector has issues just look are American healthcare and the mess that is in.." yet evidently the private american healthcare sector it is not in a mess.

Tail Docker

Piliger wrote: »

Are you some kind of D4 snob ?

Nah. Are you some sort of manic cheerleader? Don't bother answering.

Iwasfrozen

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

In developed countries the middle classes are getting poorer that is what matters so while yes a certain standard of living is being achieved by more, getting beyond that to the middle income is a lot harder.

So you agree that the poor are getting richer but you're saying that the numbers of people in the middle class is shrinking?

I don't agree, from what I see the percentage of people in the middle class has swelled since the 1970's.

Tail Docker

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So you agree that the poor are getting richer but you're saying that the numbers of people in the middle class is shrinking?

I don't agree, from what I see the percentage of people in the middle class has swelled since the 1970's.

Good skills! Way to twist a post! Piliger needs to take notes from you.

Karl Stein

Piliger wrote: »

he's an idiot

Some anonymous dope on the internet calls a professor of economics and person awarded a PhD from the L.S.E. for his work on wealth concentration 'an idiot' because he doesn't like his views.

We're doomed as a species if people like you ever get taken seriously.

andrewdeerpark

Piliger wrote: »

he's an idiot and has been denounced by most reputable economists.

Like what ?


So you admit that you were wrong. You said "however private sector has issues just look are American healthcare and the mess that is in.." yet evidently the private american healthcare sector it is not in a mess.

Piliger
All bank funded economists and media like the Financial Times have denounced him. Make what you will of that...

US Healthcare
Let me spell is out for you the American PRIVATE Healthcare system is an absolute mess of inequality, exorbitant fees and procedures making money for pharmaceuticals, doctors, hospitals and everybody to the detriment of patient care and any sense of social care.

Yes I accept healthcare is a "black hole" for money worldwide with loads of issues however the US is one of the worst for the ordinary worker.

Rhys Essien

On the radio today,they said 150,000 work for multinationals in Ireland.What percentage is this of people in employment?.

Iwasfrozen

Tail Docker wrote: »

Good skills! Way to twist a post! Piliger needs to take notes from you.

Do you plan to contribute at all to the thread?

andrewdeerpark

Karl Stein wrote: »

Some anonymous dope on the internet calls a professor of economics and person awarded a PhD from the L.S.E. for his work on wealth concentration 'an idiot' because he doesn't like his views.

We're doomed as a species if people like you ever get taken seriously.

Well said Sir, their ARE a few idiots here tonight.

Iwasfrozen

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Well said Sir, their is a few idiots here tonight.

*there are a few idiots.

Sorry, couldn't help it.

andrewdeerpark

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So you agree that the poor are getting richer but you're saying that the numbers of people in the middle class is shrinking?

I don't agree, from what I see the percentage of people in the middle class has swelled since the 1970's.

More poor are being lifted out of abject poverty I agree with, beyond that is where the inequality starts.

Tail Docker

Tail Docker wrote: »

Cash stockpiling is currently one of the greatest global problems we face. It is concentrating liquidity into the hands of a tiny few, to the detriment of the many. Piketty has a view on it. The old quote that money is like manure, pile it up and it stinks, spread it around and it causes growth, is very apt.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Do you plan to contribute at all to the thread?

Dunno. Maybe.

andrewdeerpark

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

*there are a few idiots.

Sorry, couldn't help it.

I give you the one bit of bad grammar V's some of the awful, no attempt at any form of coherent or rational argument against articulate points made by some..

pablo128

I have a genuine question. If the multinationals were made pay the full 12%, and threw their toys out of the pram, what other european country would they do better in? And how much importance is there in Ireland being an english speaking country in all of this?

Iwasfrozen

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

More poor are being lifted out of abject poverty I agree with, beyond that is where the inequality starts.

Why does it matter that the gap is widening with rich getting richer if the poor are also getting richer?

Would you rather the gap was smaller and the poor were poorer just so long as the rich were less rich?

This is why inequality isn't really important.

I'll let Margaret Thatcher explain it better than I can.

Tail Docker

pablo128 wrote: »

I have a genuine question. If the multinationals were made pay the full 12%, and threw their toys out of the pram, what other european country would they do better in? And how much importance is there in Ireland being an english speaking country in all of this?

Our employment laws alone give us a head start. They could go to Germany(hah) or france(lol) or spain(hmm, maybe) but apart from those, they're stuck between us and the UK..and we're better - we just don't have the guts to profit fully from the fact we are better, which is a confidence issue. That's the reality - and there isn't even a need to gloss it with manure, aka Piliger.

Iwasfrozen

steddyeddy wrote: »

1987-Margaret Thatcher: There is no such thing as society
2013-Society: there is no such thing as Margaret Thatcher!

That's just nasty.

andrewdeerpark

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why does it matter that the rich are getting richer if the poor are also getting richer? Why does it matter then that the gap is wider than it was?

Would you rather the poor were poorer just so long as the rich were less rich? With a smaller gap?

This is why inequality isn't really important.

That is wrong, the power base and stability of a country is the upper working and middle classes. If enough of them slip in earnings then social instability will occur, people want a comfortable living and see progression in earnings and wealth. There is real fear that this is the 1st generation that will be poorer that its parents.

steddyeddy

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's just nasty.

True I'll delete it and apologise.

Tail Docker

Margaret Thatcher(who was my local MP) was the worst thing ever to happen to ordinary people. She may have crushed the unions, but she crushed the working people at the same time. She did bad, good.

SpaceTime

While I think the tax rates should be applied correctly, this is playing with fire by the EU.

If the Irish economy were to go into a nose dive if such a thing were to cause a lot of multinationals to pullout, the EU might find itself on the end of a major loan default.

Not sure this is the time to be kicking Ireland to be honest. The economy is only barely recovered.

steddyeddy

Tail Docker wrote: »

Margaret Thatcher(who was my local MP) was the worst thing ever to happen to ordinary people. She may have crushed the unions, but she crushed the working people at the same time. She did bad, good.

She destroyed a lot of the northern towns.

Iwasfrozen

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

That is wrong, the power base and stability of a country is the upper working and middle classes. If enough of them slip in earnings then social instability will occur, people want a comfortable living and see progression in earnings and wealth. There is real fear that this is the 1st generation that will be poorer that its parents.

But do you have any proof that the percentage of population in the middle and upper working classes is falling?

Iwasfrozen

Tail Docker wrote: »

Margaret Thatcher(who was my local MP) was the worst thing ever to happen to ordinary people. She may have crushed the unions, but she crushed the working people at the same time. She did bad, good.

The wages of ordinary people grew strongly under her leadership.

Tail Docker

steddyeddy wrote: »

She destroyed a lot of the northern towns.

They are now dismissed as scrounging chavs.. some people are never happy..

Tail Docker

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The wages of ordinary people grew strongly under her leadership.

Did they fcuk. I grew up under her leadership. You're wrong, simple as.

Iwasfrozen

Tail Docker wrote: »

Did they fcuk. I grew up under her leadership. You're wrong, simple as.

Thatcher turned Britain's economy around.

Source: http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/04/daily-chart-6

Tail Docker

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Thatcher turned Britain's economy around.

Source: http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/04/daily-chart-6

Right into a massive recession, that Blair strolled out of, purely by luck and financial manipulation. Go away with your charts, I lived right through it and lost a fortune when the arse fell out of the UKs economy. She was a wagon, and a wagon for the Corporates.

Iwasfrozen

Tail Docker wrote: »

Right into a massive recession, that Blair strolled out of, purely by luck and financial manipulation. Go away with your charts, I lived right through it and lost a fortune when the arse fell out of the UKs economy. She was a wagon, and a wagon for the Corporates.

"Go away you with yer charts and facts. Wages fell under Thatcher because I say so and it doesn't matter if the facts say different."

Tail Docker

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

"Go away you with yer charts and facts. Wages fell under Thatcher because I say so and it doesn't matter if the facts say different."

Ok. I pay wages, not take them, but lets roll with it. I was paying lads £60 a day "under Thatcher" in the late '80's. That was the average, going rate. The average now here is €100.00. Do the math. Thats throwing in 24 years of inflation... so jog on. Wages have fallen drastically, in real terms. And they'll fall further yet.

Iwasfrozen

Tail Docker wrote: »

Ok. I pay wages, not take them, but lets roll with it. I was paying lads £60 a day "under Thatcher" in the late '80's. That was the average, going rate. The average now here is €100.00. Do the math. Thats throwing in 24 years of inflation... so jog on. Wages have fallen drastically, in real terms. And they'll fall further yet.

That could have just been your sector. I've shown you wages grew substantially more under Thatcher than they did before Thatcher.

If you're going to dismiss actual facts then I don't really know what to say to you.

lightspeed

Hootanany wrote: »

But if we even getting 12.5% but we are not false accounting

Its not false accounting, its just that Ireland has such generous research and developments tax relief, that companies can reduce the amount liable for tax at the 12.5% rate. The rate the pay at is 12.5% but they of course pay less taxes than without the R&d tax relief.

Its like with income tax. If you have more tax credits for whatever reason are you paying a lower rate of tax?

Of course not, but the amount liable for tax is less than someone with less tax credits.

Lou.m

Mr_Red wrote: »

These companies employee people and the government taxes the employees.

they bring great business into the communities like areas in Cork, Kildare , Dublin, Galway and so on.

The EU can go fcuk themselves

They come largely because we are in the EU too.

suicide_circus

On the one hand, any economy almost entirely reliant on the whims of fdi companies is asking for trouble. On the other, our corporate tax rate is basically the only card we can play.
The idea that we have to take it up the tail pipe forevermore because we have a few km of German built motorway is also nonsense, we're so quick to genuflect and doff the cap, have a little self respect ffs.

Piliger

pablo128 wrote: »

I have a genuine question. If the multinationals were made pay the full 12%, and threw their toys out of the pram, what other european country would they do better in? And how much importance is there in Ireland being an english speaking country in all of this?

They have a wide choice across the northern part of Europe. They would benefit hugely from local infrastructure, while the employment and commercial legal environment would be on a par.

When multinationals make decisions they make them often on what look like tiny margins. Because tiny margins become huge money when they are scaled up.

English speaking is a definite plus, but only a superficial one. Multinationals are operating in a multi lingual environment every day across the globe and whether they move a big factory from Waterford to Belgium won't cause them any real inconvenience. Not on the scale that they operate in.

Most successful multinationals here, especially in the pharma sector, also operate at a level where they can relocate with minimum downside. Being able to do so benefits them enormously when tax changes and commercial legal frameworks change across the globe.

This is what makes our low tax environment so successful and so lucrative for us. Not only do we get the jobs, and the employer's employment taxes, but we also get the commercial cash flow into the country generating almost as many ancillary jobs as there are in the original multinational operation.

Stupid short sighted people focus on the Corporation Tax because they are driven by class warfare and envy, instead of realism and commercial nouse.