Looks like Revenue are in a spot of bother

Idbatterim

What are you talking about ? There is no evidence whatsoever that Ireland has broken any EU Tax Regulations.
This is all a big blowhard attempt to intimidate Ireland into agreeing to raise our taxes to match those in Germany and France.
Kenny has dug in his heels and said no way. Rightly.

We are a small island on the periphery of Europe, no big oil or natural resources to extract and unfortunately we arent a small country with a massive ppulation in the centre of europe like France or Germany with all the benefits it brings, like having had the population and demand for massive industries back in the 1700,1800 and 1900's, huge amounts of whom are household names today. The corporation tax is critical to us, its one thing they can go whistle for and Id make no apologies for it... They have taken us for all they can, enough is enough. They will never get the corporation tax anyway, no government would ever give it up, they would probably be more likely to give a naive blanket bank guarantee again than interfere with corporation tax...

Piliger

Idbatterim wrote: »

They have taken us for all they can, enough is enough.

I was cheering you on until I got to this bizarre bit ...

syklops

Hootanany wrote: »

But we are emigrating in droves.

In 2014, if you are skilled in IT, and emigrating, then you're an idiot.

Son Of A Vidic

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This whole corporation tax business is f*cking ridiculous. If other countries for one reason or another can't compete with Ireland, tough sh!t - there are plenty of strings countries like Germany pull with regard to the ECB which Irish people would love to do something about but we can't. This is something we have control over which they don't, so unless they want to compromise on bank debt and bondholders, they can f*ck right off.

And with that in mind, the Government should now finally grow a pair and announce a reduction in CT to 8%.

Piliger

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

And with that in mind, the Government should now finally grow a pair and announce a reduction in CT to 8%.

Baffling logic.

Piliger

syklops wrote: »

In 2014, if you are skilled in IT, and emigrating, then you're an idiot.

2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 too.

FURET

syklops wrote: »

In 2014, if you are skilled in IT, and emigrating, then you're an idiot.

LOL - what if you're emigrating because you can get an IT job abroad that pays 250% higher?

andrewdeerpark

Back on topic this story is really starting to take off, 2nd on the BBC website now, more than likely be close to the top of the BBC news tonight:

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27788238

The key line being:

"The Irish arrangement allowed Apple to pay just 1.9% tax on its $37bn in overseas profits in 2012, despite the fact the average tax rate in the OECD countries that make up its main markets was 24% last year"

As I said absolutely taking the p**s. About time these shady tax practices were brought to light and closed off.

Piliger

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Back on topic this story is really starting to take off, 2nd on the BBC website now, more than likely be close to the top of the BBC news tonight:

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27788238

The key line being:

"The Irish arrangement allowed Apple to pay just 1.9% tax on its $37bn in overseas profits in 2012, despite the fact the average tax rate in the OECD countries that make up its main markets was 24% last year"

As I said absolutely taking the p**s. About time these shady tax practices were brought to light and closed off.

Media speculation. Convenient anti EU and anti Irish BBC crapology.

The proof is in the eating, so I'll wait for the people who actually examine what the reality on the grind is before I engage my 'outrage' gear.

Fratton Fred

Piliger wrote: »

Media speculation. Convenient anti EU and anti Irish BBC crapology.

Same line of defense used by Sepp Blatter.

Piliger

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Same line of defense used by Sepp Blatter.

And the Birmingham Six ... so ?

Valetta

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Back on topic this story is really starting to take off, 2nd on the BBC website now, more than likely be close to the top of the BBC news tonight:

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27788238

The key line being:

"The Irish arrangement allowed Apple to pay just 1.9% tax on its $37bn in overseas profits in 2012, despite the fact the average tax rate in the OECD countries that make up its main markets was 24% last year"

As I said absolutely taking the p**s. About time these shady tax practices were brought to light and closed off.

Why, exactly are you outraged?

Fratton Fred

Piliger wrote: »

And the Birmingham Six ... so ?

So, err, it's bollocks.

The eu investigates three European countries tax arrangements and because you don't like it you cry racist. It's nothing of the sort, it's part of a consolidated effort by a number of countries to close tax loop holes. It's not, in any way, shape or form, the BBC being anti eu or anti Irish.

Piliger

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So, err, it's bollocks.

The eu investigates three European countries tax arrangements and because you don't like it you cry racist. It's nothing of the sort, it's part of a consolidated effort by a number of countries to close tax loop holes. It's not, in any way, shape or form, the BBC being anti eu or anti Irish.

Where did I "cry racism" ??

And it is anti EU and anti Irish BBC crapology.

awec

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Back on topic this story is really starting to take off, 2nd on the BBC website now, more than likely be close to the top of the BBC news tonight:

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27788238

The key line being:

"The Irish arrangement allowed Apple to pay just 1.9% tax on its $37bn in overseas profits in 2012, despite the fact the average tax rate in the OECD countries that make up its main markets was 24% last year"

As I said absolutely taking the p**s. About time these shady tax practices were brought to light and closed off.

Nothing shady about it. There's nothing to close off.

And the story isn't really "taking off".

The average tax rate is irrelevant. In Ireland we have low corporation tax as it's all we have to attract business and investment. Of course we're way below average - if we were average we'd be screwed!

The EU don't like Ireland using tax incentives to attract major investment. For some really baffling reason some people in Ireland seem to be against major international investment too.

darkpagandeath

awec wrote: »

Nothing shady about it. There's nothing to close off.

And the story isn't really "taking off".

The average tax rate is irrelevant. In Ireland we have low corporation tax as it's all we have to attract business and investment. Of course we're way below average - if we were average we'd be screwed!

The EU don't like Ireland using tax incentives to attract major investment. For some really baffling reason some people in Ireland seem to be against major international investment too.

What about Irish companies owning patents that can be used to avail of massive tax write-offs ?

Fratton Fred

Piliger wrote: »

Where did I "cry racism" ??

And it is anti EU and anti Irish BBC crapology.

Metaphorically, you just did again.

awec

darkpagandeath wrote: »

What about Irish companies owning patents that can be used to avail of massive tax write-offs ?

What's shady about that? It's pretty well publicised and is yet another incentive for attracting business here.

Bubbaclaus

I assume the posters in this thread against the tax incentives for Multinationals in Ireland are not actually from Ireland?

Because I cannot comprehend why an Irish person would want to get rid of these. People from other countries being against it makes sense, as it gives Ireland an advantage...but I do not understand why any Irish person would be against these incentives.

Any Irish people look to get rid of these incentives and increase CT is basically hoping one of the main drivers of the Irish economy collapses.

I don't get it.

Fratton Fred

awec wrote: »

Nothing shady about it. There's nothing to close off.

And the story isn't really "taking off".

The average tax rate is irrelevant. In Ireland we have low corporation tax as it's all we have to attract business and investment. Of course we're way below average - if we were average we'd be screwed!

The EU don't like Ireland using tax incentives to attract major investment. For some really baffling reason some people in Ireland seem to be against major international investment too.

In a lot of cases though, it isn't massive investment, it is paper companies with few or no employees. It makes GDP look good, but doesn't do that much for the overall economy.

If these arrangements were closed and the companies forced to pay the actual tax rate, Ireland would still be a beneficial place for them, because it has a low tax rate. The trick is to make sure all these loopholes are closed at the same time so there is nowhere for these companies to go.

awec

Fratton Fred wrote: »

In a lot of cases though, it isn't massive investment, it is paper companies with few or no employees. It makes GDP look good, but doesn't do that much for the overall economy.

If these arrangements were closed and the companies forced to pay the actual tax rate, Ireland would still be a beneficial place for them, because it has a low tax rate. The trick is to make sure all these loopholes are closed at the same time so there is nowhere for these companies to go.

If you kill off the incentives then obviously costs go up.

Where do you think the subsequent savings would come from?

Do you think killing the incentives is going to have a prolonged benefit to Revenue's bottom line?

darkpagandeath

awec wrote: »

What's shady about that? It's pretty well publicised and is yet another incentive for attracting business here.

Yeah odd that said R&D is done in another country, Then the patent passed to the one here to avail of R&D tax breaks... Is the R&D not supposed to be done here.

andrewdeerpark

Piliger wrote: »

Where did I "cry racism" ??

And it is anti EU and anti Irish BBC crapology.

It was the US senate outrage started the whole ball rolling; anti-Irish their as well I suppose?

awec

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Yeah odd that said R&D is done in another country, Then the patent passed to the one here to avail of R&D tax breaks... Is the R&D not supposed to be done here.

No, the work that leads to the patent needs to be done in the european economic area in order to qualify for the tax incentives on the income of that patent.

If you want to claim R+D incentives then the work needs to be done in Ireland.

darkpagandeath

awec wrote: »

No, the work that leads to the patent needs to be done in the european economic area in order to qualify for the tax incentives on the income of that patent.

If you want to claim R+D incentives then the work needs to be done in Ireland.

That's not what is happening though, One brass plate here holds a lot of one companies patents using this.

awec

darkpagandeath wrote: »

That's not what is happening though, One brass plate here holds a lot of one companies patents using this.

Using what?

darkpagandeath

awec wrote: »

Using what?

The tax breaks on R&D

Fratton Fred

awec wrote: »

If you kill off the incentives then obviously costs go up.

Where do you think the subsequent savings would come from?

Do you think killing the incentives is going to have a prolonged benefit to Revenue's bottom line?

Ireland is in a catch 22 situation. It needs these companies to be paying more tax, but also needs these companies more than they need Ireland.

If the bigger countries, or better still the eu, tackles this, Ireland should do very nicely out of it. It can claim more tax whilst effectively holding its hands in the air and claiming it's not our fault. If the eu does it in such a way as to bring competition down to the basic tax rate, Ireland should be quids in.

Piliger

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

It was the US senate outrage started the whole ball rolling; anti-Irish their as well I suppose?

Why do you suppose that ? Other than just trying to belittle other people's opinion ?

andrewdeerpark

Piliger wrote: »

Why do you suppose that ? Other than just trying to belittle other people's opinion ?

Not in the least, just individuals taking the tone its the EU picking on poor olde Ireland; instead what we have is corporations exploiting globalization, the free trade blocks, relative free movement of capital and playing countries off against each other all in order to pay a miniscule amount of tax on exorbitant profits.

K-9

darkpagandeath wrote: »

That's not what is happening though, One brass plate here holds a lot of one companies patents using this.

I thought the last Budget changed that.

darkpagandeath

K-9 wrote: »

I thought the last Budget changed that.

Well they did close down some loopholes to do with subsidiaries.

Iwasfrozen

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Not in the least, just individuals taking the tone its the EU picking on poor olde Ireland; instead what we have is corporations exploiting globalization, the free trade blocks, relative free movement of capital and playing countries off against each other all in order to pay a miniscule amount of tax on exorbitant profits.

All mankind is divided into three classes: those who are immovable, those who are movable, and those who move. - Benjamin Franklin

Corporations pay low tax because we want to attract them to Ireland and give them a reason to stay. The average person pays more tax because the average person won't move if taxes are high.

andrewdeerpark

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

All mankind is divided into three classes: those who are immovable, those who are movable, and those who move. - Benjamin Franklin

Corporations pay low tax because we want to attract them to Ireland and give them a reason to stay. The average person pays more tax because the average person won't move if taxes are high.

That's a fair point.

Another point of view on the issue:

http://americanprogress.org/issues/tax-reform/report/2014/01/09/81681/offshore-corporate-profits-the-only-thing-trapped-is-tax-revenue/

BarryLyndon

Disclaimer: i am not talking about the CT % rate but the obvious shenanigans that are being employed by certain entities to have effective rates of 2-3%.

I think if Irish politicians keep their eye on the long game, they will play dumb but be seen to take this seriously and comply with the EU and their investigations. Within the larger economies, there is increasing political pressure to curb global tax avoidance (though it's still on the fringes to an extent, certainly in the likes of the UK). Citizens within other EU states are well within their rights to lobby their governments on this issue and ask why global firms find it so easy to manipulate the rules to their advantage. To most right-minded people, the chicanery is obvious.

It's not something that Ireland should be apologetic about but despite the fact that it is currently a distinct comparative advantage, I think you have to anticipate that this will not be the case for much longer. It's not a matter of relenting to the EU overloads so much as sticking your finger in the air, and realising that this is not a sensible long-term strategy.

Iwasfrozen

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

That's a fair point.

Another point of view on the issue:

http://americanprogress.org/issues/tax-reform/report/2014/01/09/81681/offshore-corporate-profits-the-only-thing-trapped-is-tax-revenue/

America is different to Ireland though, large MNCs won't realistically pull out of America but they could pull out of Ireland.

Iwasfrozen

BarryLyndon wrote: »

Disclaimer: i am not talking about the CT % rate but the obvious shenanigans that are being employed by certain entities to have effective rates of 2-3%.

I think if Irish politicians keep their eye on the long game, they will play dumb but be seen to take this seriously and comply with the EU and their investigations. Within the larger economies, there is increasing political pressure to curb global tax avoidance (though it's still on the fringes to an extent, certainly in the likes of the UK). Citizens within other EU states are well within their rights to lobby their governments on this issue and ask why global firms find it so easy to manipulate the rules to their advantage. To most right-minded people, the chicanery is obvious.

It's not something that Ireland should be apologetic about but despite the fact that it is currently a distinct comparative advantage, I think you have to anticipate that this will not be the case for much longer. It's not a matter of relenting to the EU overloads so much as sticking your finger in the air, and realising that this is not a sensible long-term strategy.

I don't see any reason why Ireland has to relent on anything. There is no legal mechanism in which the EU can force our compliance on new rules.

BarryLyndon

If only politicians could take your principled stand (we'd be in quite a state lol)....

Rightwing

It's about time these companies pay up, or the fook out. Spongers.

Where'll they all go ? :rolleyes:

Baffles me how many fall into the 'they'all leave trap'

JD Dublin

Hootanany wrote: »

But if we even getting 12.5% but we are not false accounting

The effective rate in France for small businesses is about 7% - lower than our 12.5% rate. You never hear that from anyone though. At least we have a transparent system where everyone gets the same rate. Theoretically anyway.

Anyway for all the people worried that Apple etc might leave Ireland - the 12.5% is not enough to keep them here. They could just run a brass-plate operation for that, like lots of the banks in the IFSC, and run their profits through Ireland that way. They are here for other reasons, like the English-speaking, well-educated workforce with ready access to the European market.

Iwasfrozen

Rightwing wrote: »

It's about time these companies pay up, or the fook out. Spongers.

Where'll they all go ? :rolleyes:

Baffles me how many fall into the 'they'all leave trap'

You're not very right wing..

Rightwing

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You're not very right wing..

Indeed not.

I think corporations should pay tax, and plenty of it, and bondholders aren't all that bad.

Oh yeah, and Europe saved us, contrary to what we're told.

Valetta

Rightwing wrote: »

It's about time these companies pay up, or the fook out. Spongers.

Where'll they all go ? :rolleyes:

Baffles me how many fall into the 'they'all leave trap'

Why do you think they are here in the first place?

For the weather?

Rightwing

Valetta wrote: »

Why do you think they are here in the first place?

For the weather?

A few facts, they have to go somewhere, and the moon is a non runner. If Enda or Martin tell us it is, trust me, it isn't.

Secondly, they will need a presence in Europe, and access to the world's biggest market. We have to play by the EU rules. Speaking English and supplying an educated workforce is enough.

Many Irish companies employ tens of thousands of workers in America and pay well over 20% corporation tax, the question remains, why aren't they all leaving?

Iwasfrozen

BarryLyndon wrote: »

If only politicians could take your principled stand (we'd be in quite a state lol)....

what?

Iwasfrozen

Rightwing wrote: »

A few facts, they have to go somewhere, and the moon is a non runner. If Enda or Martin tell us it is, trust me, it isn't.

Secondly, they will need a presence in Europe, and access to the world's biggest market. We have to play by the EU rules. Speaking English and supplying an educated workforce is enough.

Many Irish companies employ tens of thousands of workers in America and pay well over 20% corporation tax, the question remains, why aren't they all leaving?

Most countries in Europe have significant English speaking populations. In Scandinavia, the Germanies and the Lowcountries it's hard to find a college graduate who doesn't speak English.

Because America is a massive country more likeable to Europe than Ireland. Imagine instead America was 50 separate countries each with it's own corporations tax within a pan-American free trade block and corporations had to decide what state to set up in. All else being equal they will set up in the country with the lowest corp tax.

Tokarev

Pay your proper tax like every other tax payer in Ireland.

Rightwing

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Most countries in Europe have significant English speaking populations. In Scandinavia, the Germanies and the Lowcountries it's hard to find a college graduate who doesn't speak English.

Because America is a massive country more likeable to Europe than Ireland. Imagine instead America was 50 separate countries each with it's own corporations tax within a pan-American free trade block and corporations had to decide what state to set up in. All else being equal they will set up in the country with the lowest corp tax.

Correct, that's why we need a standardised tax rate across the union. It will happen, there should be no doubt about that. This is not an assault on Ireland. Countries need the revenue and there's only so much they can take from the citizens.

Elektronske

Piliger wrote: »

Exactly. And Kenny has held the line under intense pressure all through this government. Bloody great job.

Servile Enda kenny couldn't hold his mickey, he'd lick the germans and yanks holes clean for them if his handlers gave him half a chance.

Iwasfrozen

Rightwing wrote: »

Correct, that's why we need a standardised tax rate across the union. It will happen, there should be no doubt about that. This is not an assault on Ireland. Countries need the revenue and there's only so much they can take from the citizens.

How will it happen? There is no mechanism in which the EU can compel Ireland to change it's corp tax policy and it's not in our interests to comply.