Looks like Revenue are in a spot of bother

Tail Docker

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The wages of ordinary people grew strongly under her leadership.

Did they fcuk. I grew up under her leadership. You're wrong, simple as.

Iwasfrozen

Tail Docker wrote: »

Did they fcuk. I grew up under her leadership. You're wrong, simple as.

Thatcher turned Britain's economy around.

Source: http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/04/daily-chart-6

Tail Docker

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Thatcher turned Britain's economy around.

Source: http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/04/daily-chart-6

Right into a massive recession, that Blair strolled out of, purely by luck and financial manipulation. Go away with your charts, I lived right through it and lost a fortune when the arse fell out of the UKs economy. She was a wagon, and a wagon for the Corporates.

Iwasfrozen

Tail Docker wrote: »

Right into a massive recession, that Blair strolled out of, purely by luck and financial manipulation. Go away with your charts, I lived right through it and lost a fortune when the arse fell out of the UKs economy. She was a wagon, and a wagon for the Corporates.

"Go away you with yer charts and facts. Wages fell under Thatcher because I say so and it doesn't matter if the facts say different."

Tail Docker

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

"Go away you with yer charts and facts. Wages fell under Thatcher because I say so and it doesn't matter if the facts say different."

Ok. I pay wages, not take them, but lets roll with it. I was paying lads £60 a day "under Thatcher" in the late '80's. That was the average, going rate. The average now here is €100.00. Do the math. Thats throwing in 24 years of inflation... so jog on. Wages have fallen drastically, in real terms. And they'll fall further yet.

Iwasfrozen

Tail Docker wrote: »

Ok. I pay wages, not take them, but lets roll with it. I was paying lads £60 a day "under Thatcher" in the late '80's. That was the average, going rate. The average now here is €100.00. Do the math. Thats throwing in 24 years of inflation... so jog on. Wages have fallen drastically, in real terms. And they'll fall further yet.

That could have just been your sector. I've shown you wages grew substantially more under Thatcher than they did before Thatcher.

If you're going to dismiss actual facts then I don't really know what to say to you.

lightspeed

Hootanany wrote: »

But if we even getting 12.5% but we are not false accounting

Its not false accounting, its just that Ireland has such generous research and developments tax relief, that companies can reduce the amount liable for tax at the 12.5% rate. The rate the pay at is 12.5% but they of course pay less taxes than without the R&d tax relief.

Its like with income tax. If you have more tax credits for whatever reason are you paying a lower rate of tax?

Of course not, but the amount liable for tax is less than someone with less tax credits.

Lou.m

Mr_Red wrote: »

These companies employee people and the government taxes the employees.

they bring great business into the communities like areas in Cork, Kildare , Dublin, Galway and so on.

The EU can go fcuk themselves

They come largely because we are in the EU too.

suicide_circus

On the one hand, any economy almost entirely reliant on the whims of fdi companies is asking for trouble. On the other, our corporate tax rate is basically the only card we can play.
The idea that we have to take it up the tail pipe forevermore because we have a few km of German built motorway is also nonsense, we're so quick to genuflect and doff the cap, have a little self respect ffs.

Piliger

pablo128 wrote: »

I have a genuine question. If the multinationals were made pay the full 12%, and threw their toys out of the pram, what other european country would they do better in? And how much importance is there in Ireland being an english speaking country in all of this?

They have a wide choice across the northern part of Europe. They would benefit hugely from local infrastructure, while the employment and commercial legal environment would be on a par.

When multinationals make decisions they make them often on what look like tiny margins. Because tiny margins become huge money when they are scaled up.

English speaking is a definite plus, but only a superficial one. Multinationals are operating in a multi lingual environment every day across the globe and whether they move a big factory from Waterford to Belgium won't cause them any real inconvenience. Not on the scale that they operate in.

Most successful multinationals here, especially in the pharma sector, also operate at a level where they can relocate with minimum downside. Being able to do so benefits them enormously when tax changes and commercial legal frameworks change across the globe.

This is what makes our low tax environment so successful and so lucrative for us. Not only do we get the jobs, and the employer's employment taxes, but we also get the commercial cash flow into the country generating almost as many ancillary jobs as there are in the original multinational operation.

Stupid short sighted people focus on the Corporation Tax because they are driven by class warfare and envy, instead of realism and commercial nouse.

Piliger

Mr_Red wrote: »

These companies employee people and the government taxes the employees.

they bring great business into the communities like areas in Cork, Kildare , Dublin, Galway and so on.

The EU can go fcuk themselves

Get a grip. You appear to be user the impression that the "EU" objects to our opposes our low tax regime. They don't. The "EU" doesn't have a view. They only have a view on whether we are operating within the regulations and that is a very different thing to our low tax regime. The people that object to our low tax regime are the high tax countries like France and partly Germany etc. But they are not "the EU".

Piliger

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Thatcher turned Britain's economy around.

Source: http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/04/daily-chart-6

She was a massive saviour for the British economy, the middle classes and those who wanted to work instead of spending their days whinging about their entitlements - and she was also a massive benefit to the Irish economy in the same way.

Frank Lee Midere

Piliger wrote: »

They have a wide choice across the northern part of Europe. They would benefit hugely from local infrastructure, while the employment and commercial legal environment would be on a par.

When multinationals make decisions they make them often on what look like tiny margins. Because tiny margins become huge money when they are scaled up.

English speaking is a definite plus, but only a superficial one. Multinationals are operating in a multi lingual environment every day across the globe and whether they move a big factory from Waterford to Belgium won't cause them any real inconvenience. Not on the scale that they operate in.

Most successful multinationals here, especially in the pharma sector, also operate at a level where they can relocate with minimum downside. Being able to do so benefits them enormously when tax changes and commercial legal frameworks change across the globe.

This is what makes our low tax environment so successful and so lucrative for us. Not only do we get the jobs, and the employer's employment taxes, but we also get the commercial cash flow into the country generating almost as many ancillary jobs as there are in the original multinational operation.

Stupid short sighted people focus on the Corporation Tax because they are driven by class warfare and envy, instead of realism and commercial nouse.

I suspect that English speaking is more important than you think. Specially for IT. Learning a new language is a barrier to emigration but most IT workers speak English anyway. So coming to Ireland for a worker isn't a chore. Going to Germany means you need both German and English to work for a company headquartered in the US ( which is what we are talking about here).

Plus unlike other fields you can't just pay low wages, you pay high wages and hope the best emigrate. Ireland is in a relatively good position.

Frank Lee Midere

Piliger wrote: »

She was a massive saviour for the British economy, the middle classes and those who wanted to work instead of spending their days whinging about their entitlements - and she was also a massive benefit to the Irish economy in the same way.

In many ways she was an economic vandal. Britain was workhorse of the world. Now it's the financial capital, a tourist destination and a place for the super rich to park their wealth in property.

steddyeddy

Life in a northern town all the work shut down.

UCDVet

Meh - it's a catch-22.

It's easy to say, 'look at all these multinationals! Not paying taxes!'
But on the flip side, why are a lot of these multinational companies here? Because we gave them great deals on taxes.

I work for a large multinational financial services-type company. They have offices all over the world and they do have staff that are meant to be experts in local tax laws. Whenever there are changes to tax laws, they do a cost/benefit analysis. If they can make more money by moving the office, they will. That's it. It's all about money.

They have moved offices, and the employees that didn't want to/couldn't go to the new office, we left jobless. And they have done it strictly to avoid taxes.

They're in Dublin now because of taxes. They employ a lot of workers though, most of them being well paid positions. That's a lot of income tax and it hits that 51% bracket awfully fast. A good percentage of my co-workers *came* to Dublin to work here, we interview people from all over the world. It's not like another company would just take it's place or that these people would be paying Irish income tax otherwise. That's not the case.

Increasing taxes is a tricky proposition, because as soon as the cost of moving the office is less than the tax difference, they company will leave Dublin just as fast as they came. It'd suck for their employees, people like me would be out of a job - but it's strictly business for them. They don't care either way.

InReality

UCDVet wrote: »

Meh - it's a catch-22.

It's easy to say, 'look at all these multinationals! Not paying taxes!'
But on the flip side, why are a lot of these multinational companies here? Because we gave them great deals on taxes.

I work for a large multinational financial services-type company. They have offices all over the world and they do have staff that are meant to be experts in local tax laws. Whenever there are changes to tax laws, they do a cost/benefit analysis. If they can make more money by moving the office, they will. That's it. It's all about money.

They have moved offices, and the employees that didn't want to/couldn't go to the new office, we left jobless. And they have done it strictly to avoid taxes.

They're in Dublin now because of taxes. They employ a lot of workers though, most of them being well paid positions. That's a lot of income tax and it hits that 51% bracket awfully fast. A good percentage of my co-workers *came* to Dublin to work here, we interview people from all over the world. It's not like another company would just take it's place or that these people would be paying Irish income tax otherwise. That's not the case.

Increasing taxes is a tricky proposition, because as soon as the cost of moving the office is less than the tax difference, they company will leave Dublin just as fast as they came. It'd suck for their employees, people like me would be out of a job - but it's strictly business for them. They don't care either way.

Do you think this would apply to many other MNC's ? I think we could raise a bit more tax on them , not the billions the socialists expect , maybe a few hundred million , before many upped and left.

Piliger

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

In many ways she was an economic vandal. Britain was workhorse of the world. Now it's the financial capital, a tourist destination and a place for the super rich to park their wealth in property.

Oh yeah the workhouse of the world, where the tax payer was subsidising coal mines and car manufacturers to the tunes of billions every year and rubbish was piling up on the streets and bodies weren't being buried.

Wonderful !

Piliger

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

I suspect that English speaking is more important than you think. Specially for IT. Learning a new language is a barrier to emigration but most IT workers speak it anyway. So coming to Ireland isn't a chore. Going to Germany means you need both German and English to work for a company headquartered in the US ( which is what we are talking about here).

Plus unlike other fields you can't just pay low wages, you pay high wages and hope the best emigrate. Ireland is in a relatively good position.

All IT people in Germany and most northern European countries speak fluent English.

ted1

Hootanany wrote: »

http://m.independent.ie/business/irish/eu-launches-probe-into-revenue-special-deals-for-multinational-firms-30333572.html


How much of encomamy could be solved if these companies paid their tax

They are paying all taxes that they are obliged to. If we force more taxes there will be 400,000 extra people on the dole

Hootanany

But what about the SME getting a break?

Piliger

Hootanany wrote: »

But what about the SME getting a break?

Are they threatening to move abroad en masse ?

On a broader note yes I do agree that small businesses need to be treated way way better. All during the recession that have been treated like ****, and targeted in an incredible aggressive way by the revenue for example.

Frank Lee Midere

Piliger wrote: »

All IT people in Germany and most northern European countries speak fluent English.

Go back and read what I said again. ( hint I said that. ). I said that it's a given that IT workers speak English so moving to English speaking countries is easy, it isn't a given that they speak french, spainish, Dutch or German. Etc.

Frank Lee Midere

Piliger wrote: »

Oh yeah the workhouse of the world, where the tax payer was subsidising coal mines and car manufacturers to the tunes of billions every year and rubbish was piling up on the streets and bodies weren't being buried.

Wonderful !

Yeah the best thing to do there was to close all that down and not try replace the industry. By the way it was the workhouse of the world for generations.

Piliger

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

By the way it was the workhouse of the world for generations.

Indeed. The power house anyway

relax carry on

Piliger wrote: »

Are they threatening to move abroad en masse ?

On a broader note yes I do agree that small businesses need to be treated way way better. All during the recession that have been treated like ****, and targeted in an incredible aggressive way by the revenue for example.

Can you elaborate on how Revenue have been incredibly aggressive with small businesses?

awec

steddyeddy wrote: »

Life in a northern town all the work shut down.

Mining was on life support. She turned the life support off. The mines were operating at huge losses and were costing too much.

Iwasfrozen

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Yeah the best thing to do there was to close all that down and not try replace the industry. By the way it was the workhouse of the world for generations.

What does a smart owner do with a business that costs more money than it brings in?

Frank Lee Midere

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What does a smart owner do with a business that costs more money than it brings in?

What does a government do when it is facing the destruction of entire regions and industries? It could let it be, or invest. Germany invested in new technology.

Frank Lee Midere

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Thatcher turned Britain's economy around.

Source: http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/04/daily-chart-6

What do you think you are showing there? Britain from 1970-1979 had the same GDP per capita growth as 79-89