Unsunny South East

Chiparus

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Well if you're not the boss of them then it's a fair cop. And anwhere I have worked has been the same. That is Waterford, Dublin, England, Europe and the States. Demonstrating authority you don't have is a no no anywhere.

See thats the attitude fuzzy, to hell with the organization, "not my job so I'm not doing it" bull.

"I don't care if we close, not my job"

fuzzy dunlop

Chiparus wrote: »

See thats the attitude fuzzy, to hell with the organization, "not my job so I'm not doing it" bull.

"I don't care if we close, not my job"

No the atitude is if it is not your place to tell someone what to do then do it yourself. Nothing to do with the organization. If you care that much about something why are you asking someone else to do it?

Your hotel story does not stack up either as there is no hotel unions specific to Waterford. Unions are heavily cenralized with the local trades councils having little or no influence since well before the 90's.

Chiparus

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

No the atitude is if it is not your place to tell someone what to do then do it yourself. Nothing to do with the organization. If you care that much about something why are you asking someone else to do it?

Your hotel story does not stack up either as there is no hotel unions specific to Waterford. Unions are heavily cenralized with the local trades councils having little or no influence since well before the 90's.

I work in management , I may not be the direct line manager of a certain worker, but if I ask a worker to perform a task , in Waterford I will be told "no" , in other parts of the country I will told "no problem".

Its the attitude here , ask any manager, especially those from outside Waterford.

JPA

Chiparus wrote: »

I work in management , I may not be the direct line manager of a certain worker, but if I ask a worker to perform a task , in Waterford I will be told "no" , in other parts of the country I will told "no problem".

Its the attitude here , ask any manager, especially those from outside Waterford.

If you are not someone's superior why would you tell them to do something or why should they do it?

Chiparus

Never told anyone to do a task, I asked.

But people in waterford seem to confuse ask and tell. Its an attitude.

kayaksurfbum

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

A guy in Kerry told me something. Ah well that's it so. Case closed no more need for rationality or evidence based analysis. Especially that Waterford seems to be the only palce in the world that has unions:rolleyes: Talk about horse manure!

You dont seam to understand whats been said here.

Brick Session

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Especially that Waterford seems to be the only palce in the world that has unions:rolleyes: Talk about horse manure!

Waterford is not the only place in the world that has unions but this conversation is about Waterford and Waterford has one particular union that is totally anti company and that union would have been the main union in most of the businesses that have closed in Waterford.

The article is not far off the mark in my opinion. Our biggest obstacle in Waterford City & County is that we have no representation in Government, the 4 TD's that are from Waterford are as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike. Total waste of space.

People can say what they like about Martin Cullen but Waterford was a lot better off with him there.

Brick Session

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

No the atitude is if it is not your place to tell someone what to do then do it yourself. Nothing to do with the organization. If you care that much about something why are you asking someone else to do it?

Your hotel story does not stack up either as there is no hotel unions specific to Waterford. Unions are heavily cenralized with the local trades councils having little or no influence since well before the 90's.

Fuzzy, before the 90's???

Can I ask you have you managed any staff in Waterford in the past 10 years because I have first hand experience of the "thats not my job brigade" in the past 2 years. I have first hand experience of 30 plus staff walking off a job because one member of staff was left short €3 in their wages within the last 7 years.

old gregg

Brick Session wrote: »

Fuzzy, before the 90's???

Can I ask you have you managed any staff in Waterford in the past 10 years because I have first hand experience of the "thats not my job brigade" in the past 2 years. I have first hand experience of 30 plus staff walking off a job because one member of staff was left short €3 in their wages within the last 7 years.

Sounds more like crap management technique if you allowed that to fester for 7 years.

fuzzy dunlop

kayaksurfbum wrote: »

You dont seam to understand whats been said here.

I do. You seem to not understand the significance of hearsay. It has none. It has all the significance of a Kerryman jokj.

fuzzy dunlop

Brick Session wrote: »

Fuzzy, before the 90's???

Can I ask you have you managed any staff in Waterford in the past 10 years because I have first hand experience of the "thats not my job brigade" in the past 2 years. I have first hand experience of 30 plus staff walking off a job because one member of staff was left short €3 in their wages within the last 7 years.

So was he in the right or not? If it was 3 euro or 100 euro is irelevant nor is the fact that it only happened once in seven years. I presume he was given short shrift and that is why they walked off. Because what is for sure he did not walk off without first quering the content of his wage packet.

fuzzy dunlop

Brick Session wrote: »

Waterford is not the only place in the world that has unions but this conversation is about Waterford and Waterford has one particular union that is totally anti company and that union would have been the main union in most of the businesses that have closed in Waterford.

The article is not far off the mark in my opinion. Our biggest obstacle in Waterford City & County is that we have no representation in Government, the 4 TD's that are from Waterford are as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike. Total waste of space.

People can say what they like about Martin Cullen but Waterford was a lot better off with him there.

I never said anything about Cullen but I can agree with you in that regard. But the conversation is not about unions either it is about a newspaper article. The usual self flaggelators turned "into its about militant Waterford" bolox as ususal. What union are you on about? So far people are making big claims about militancy based on nothing but he said she said. But I bet if it the details were provided you would find in most cases it would be a bad management. I've worked in plenty of places in Waterford and there is no shortage of employers who would expect you to work for a bag of burning coal if they get away with it.

Brick Session

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

So was he in the right or not? If it was 3 euro or 100 euro is irelevant nor is the fact that it only happened once in seven years. I presume he was given short shrift and that is why they walked off. Because what is for sure he did not walk off without first quering the content of his wage packet.

How can you say that with out knowing the facts?

No the person did not come to the office like a person would in the normal course of events, the person in question rallied the troops at break time and all staff went outside the premises rather than return to their workstations. Had the person in question called to the office to raise this or brought it to the attention of the manager on site, the person could have been given the €3 there and then out of petty cash.

Brick Session

old gregg wrote: »

Sounds more like crap management technique if you allowed that to fester for 7 years.

No I meant in happened within the past 7 years, but the point I was making is that these things have been around more recently than the 90's

fuzzy dunlop

Chiparus wrote: »

I work in management , I may not be the direct line manager of a certain worker, but if I ask a worker to perform a task , in Waterford I will be told "no" , in other parts of the country I will told "no problem".

Its the attitude here , ask any manager, especially those from outside Waterford."

I am sorry but this is pure BS.I have plenty of experience in Waterford and elsewhere and I have never heard what you have said being exspressed. How about some established facts and figures for a change because I have asked the ubiquitous "anyone" and they told me it was bolox

Brick Session

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

I never said anything about Cullen but I can agree with you in that regard. But the conversation is not about unions either it is about a newspaper article. The usual self flaggelators turned "into its about militant Waterford" bolox as ususal. What union are you on about? So far people are making big claims about militancy based on nothing but he said she said. But I bet if it the details were provided you would find in most cases it would be a bad management. I've worked in plenty of places in Waterford and there is no shortage of employers who would expect you to work for a bag of burning coal if they get away with it.

And yes Fuzzy I totally agree with you on that point too about poor management allowing unions to take over businesses.

I think the conversations got onto Unions because somewhere the subject of "Militancy" came up.

I have worked for some of those employers too and I fully understand where you are coming from. I have also been on the receiving end of "if you don't want to do it, then F*ck off and we will get someone who will" but thankfully those employers are few and far between now ( I hope)

I am not making any claims based on he said she said, I am speaking about my experiences in the last 10 years.

Chiparus

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

I never said anything about Cullen but I can agree with you in that regard. But the conversation is not about unions either it is about a newspaper article. The usual self flaggelators turned "into its about militant Waterford" bolox as ususal. What union are you on about? So far people are making big claims about militancy based on nothing but he said she said. But I bet if it the details were provided you would find in most cases it would be a bad management. I've worked in plenty of places in Waterford and there is no shortage of employers who would expect you to work for a bag of burning coal if they get away with it.

This is peoples first line experience working in Waterford.

Chiparus

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

I am sorry but this is pure BS.I have plenty of experience in Waterford and elsewhere and I have never heard what you have said being exspressed. How about some established facts and figures for a change because I have asked the ubiquitous "anyone" and they told me it was bolox

Your attitude is exactly what we are talking about, rather than facing up to a problem or a perception which rightly or wrongly is there. You attack.

There is a perception that waterford workers are self-centered and unhelpful. If you are going to create employment in the Southeast, it maybe a major factor in your choice.

sparkling sea

Silentcorner wrote: »

I read that piece and thought it was rubbish. People have to understand that it is the media who are completely f**cked...this puts pressure on quality of content, this was an opinion piece without a single fact presented, how many people did she speak with, who were they, did she quote them all...it does mean however you need to fight that narrative, it can suck energy out of people...it can also allow apathy to develop, and that is where the real damage is done.

The fortunes of cities rise and fall, it is the nature of life in a city...Cork got a wallop during the 80s, Limerick is just coming out of a wallopping, Waterford may well be enduring one now, I will say this tho, the irony of it all is the The Irish Times that is on the way out...it has no future, narrative or no narrative that is a fact....Waterford will do what cities always do, recover and march on.

I spent a short time in Waterford recently, it has real potential, a good city centre...

The article states the reality, it doesn't claim that Waterford hasn't real potential but it highlights why this potential will not be focused in a productive way, basically we don't have a Minister. The image of Waterford historically is also a problem - pointing this out is a positive, at least we can address this.. Waterford has a no through traffic city centre in fairness, live here if you want to really see the problems, anywhere can look good when seen over a shot period of time.

fuzzy dunlop

Chiparus wrote: »

Your attitude is exactly what we are talking about, rather than facing up to a problem or a perception which rightly or wrongly is there. You attack.

There is a perception that waterford workers are self-centered and unhelpful. If you are going to create employment in the Southeast, it maybe a major factor in your choice.

Ah so its my atitude now! Excuse me if I don't role over and let you c assasinate the collective characters of the workforce. There is no problem with militancy. A problem of perception is a different thing. For someone who claims to be from a managerial background your not big on the ol' details. Unsubstantiated generalizations on the other hand seem to be all the go. You can solve this once and for all and provide some stats to support your contention. They are there so lets have them.

fuzzy dunlop

Chiparus wrote: »

This is peoples first line experience working in Waterford.

This is people's first line experience everywhere.

fuzzy dunlop

Brick Session wrote: »

How can you say that with out knowing the facts?

No the person did not come to the office like a person would in the normal course of events, the person in question rallied the troops at break time and all staff went outside the premises rather than return to their workstations. Had the person in question called to the office to raise this or brought it to the attention of the manager on site, the person could have been given the €3 there and then out of petty cash.

No offence but I find this hard to believe. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever

Brick Session

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

No offence but I find this hard to believe. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever

I can understand fully why you would find it hard to believe but unfortunately it is true. I would not believe it either if I was an outsider to it also. I could tell you stories that no one would believe about some of the staff and their antics which were fully supported by the said Union that no one would believe but I won't be telling you on boards.ie

To get back to the main point though, the perception portrayed. If the perception portrayed in the article is to be believed by the outsider then it does not bode well for inward investment to the City & County. We can exchange points of view and stories all day long here but it's that perception to the outsider that matters at the end of the day.

Chiparus

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

This is people's first line experience everywhere.

While people do experience it in many places, it seems engrained in the psyche here.

Chiparus

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Ah so its my atitude now! Excuse me if I don't role over and let you c assasinate the collective characters of the workforce. There is no problem with militancy. A problem of perception is a different thing. For someone who claims to be from a managerial background your not big on the ol' details. Unsubstantiated generalizations on the other hand seem to be all the go. You can solve this once and for all and provide some stats to support your contention. They are there so lets have them.

I cannot provide stats that are not collected, or even reported.
Waterford is ging to have to make the transition from semi-industrial to service industry.
The perception about waterford is of a large town that is insular, with an attitude problem.

The first point about change is that you have to recognize that there is a problem.

Max Powers

Chiparus wrote: »

I cannot provide stats that are not collected, or even reported.
Waterford is ging to have to make the transition from semi-industrial to service industry.
The perception about waterford is of a large town that is insular, with an attitude problem.

The first point about change is that you have to recognize that there is a problem.

its a fair point, reality or perception, it seems like the perception is out of sync with reality so perception needs to change. As a forward to that, does the council have a plan. Not talking about Job action plan (brutons), or a development plan 2012-2018 etc which are to a large extent useless, but more of a plan of what is our goal, where do we want to be and how are we going to achieve that vision.

fuzzy dunlop

Chiparus wrote: »

I cannot provide stats that are not collected, or even reported.
Waterford is ging to have to make the transition from semi-industrial to service industry.
The perception about waterford is of a large town that is insular, with an attitude problem.

The first point about change is that you have to recognize that there is a problem.

Well that's something else your wrong about. Not reported indeed.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/agribusiness-and-food/big-rise-in-days-lost-to-industrial-disputes-1.1690272

The fact is that Waterford is way down the scale when it comes to militancy. If the perception is otherwise it would help if people like you didn't propogate the nonsense with nothing to support it except "he said/she said" .As for your "insularity" statetement. Says who? Let me guess? Ask anyone.....

Chiparus

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Well that's something else your wrong about. Not reported indeed.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/agribusiness-and-food/big-rise-in-days-lost-to-industrial-disputes-1.1690272

The fact is that Waterford is way down the scale when it comes to militancy. If the perception is otherwise it would help if people like you didn't propogate the nonsense with nothing to support it except "he said/she said" .As for your "insularity" statetement. Says who? Let me guess? Ask anyone.....

You don't get it, its not about days lost through strikes, its about getting thing done.

You don't have to go on strike to be militant, you just have to be unhelpful.

fuzzy dunlop

Chiparus wrote: »

You don't get it, its not about days lost through strikes, its about getting thing done.

You don't have to go on strike to be militant, you just have to be unhelpful.

Look you made a sweeping statement! It's wrong! You can't back it up and now you're clutching at straws. You're the one doesn't get it!

Chiparus

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Well that's something else your wrong about. Not reported indeed.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/agribusiness-and-food/big-rise-in-days-lost-to-industrial-disputes-1.1690272

The fact is that Waterford is way down the scale when it comes to militancy. If the perception is otherwise it would help if people like you didn't propogate the nonsense with nothing to support it except "he said/she said" .As for your "insularity" statetement. Says who? Let me guess? Ask anyone.....

"Meanwhile, amid the terrible pain of transition from manufacturing to something else, Waterford is being forced to take a hard look at itself. “We’re not very good at self-analysis and self-criticism. We have to reinvent our image. Just because we do some clever things around historic tours and street theatre, this is not reinventing our industrial image. We collectively have a problem to solve,” says Dolphin. “But Waterford’s biggest mistake is that it looks in on itself all the time.”