Monday Night Raw June 9th

IanMc666

Here comes Dean

Eire-Dearg

I'd watch him for 3 hours to be honest.

Agent Coulson

Awesome!

Eire-Dearg

"The King of Kings? We're gonna have our own Game Of Thrones"

That was brilliant from Reigns

Strongbow10

good stuff from both Reigns and Ambrose

A Primal Nut

Brilliant from Amborse! Reigns good as well. Excellent 10 minutes of TV overall.

IanMc666

Class! That was actually deadly

andyman

Deans description of how he was going to rearrange Seth's face was some of the creepiest stuff I've ever heard. It was fantastic!

Agent Coulson

Pat's coming out. Legends House promo.

P_1

Those lads can cut a promo

IanMc666

I just lost it, hahahahaha

EdK

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Pat's coming out. Legends House promo.

Pat came out a long time ago

Eire-Dearg

Ugh go away Wyatts and Cena.

A Primal Nut

These raws are tough going to watch live. Can't believe there is nearly an hour left.

Ape Lincoln

I didn't watch last night. Cliff notes anyone?

gnfnrhead

Ape Lincoln wrote: »

I didn't watch last night. Cliff notes anyone?

The previous post was complaining there was still an hour left. Considering nobody posted again I'm guessing not a lot happened :pac:

the groutch

riffmongous wrote: »

I popped out of the room during the break to hang out some washing

Hope your garden was well lit, you wouldn't want to get..........











































































.... clotheslined

Lord TSC

The Ambrose/Reigns promo was fantastic. Ambrose is just so unlike anyone else on the microphone. And it verged into Non-PG as well. Which was great. But thus made it more painful when Mr. PG made the save :pac:

The Divas segments were brought to you tonight by the WAM Fetish.

Rusev still interests me but every time it's a squash match, that dies, and everytime it's Ryder again, it dies even more.

Sheamus vs Barrett was brilliant.

I don't know who is doing new theme music at the moment, but between Cesaro and Rollins, they need a kick up their ass.

rovert

Haven't seen Raw yet. Too tired, getting old lads.

Just Meltzer made reference to someone who watched the last 7 or so Raws back to back over the last 2 days and it was really quite something in terms of plans changing and pushes.

Moneymaker

The Ambrose promo was pure brilliance. Those eyes.

Rjd2

rovert wrote: »

Just Meltzer made reference to someone who watched the last 7 or so Raws back to back over the last 2 days and it was really quite something in terms of plans changing and pushes.

He must really hate his life to do that. :P

CSF

Decent Raw. Ambrose's promo was amazing, Reigns' much improved on previous ones, Rollins not so much, his whole face turn hasn't been executed that well. Granted a match between Ambrose and Rollins will more than make up for that.

Cena and Reigns both looked like real superstars tonight, Cena growing on me. Real danger in putting the belt on Reigns or Cesaro at MITB though. What happens when Bryan comes back then? Does Bryan not get the title back or does an up and comer suffer from a short title reign. Cena or Orton to win is the sensible option IMO.

Decent enough wrestling throughout the night. Sheamus v Barrett the highlight.

CSF

Also a bit of an 'in your face' to the guys saying Rollins' turn would get a good explanation.

'Ive always just viewed them as business partners and never brothers' is ridiculously contradictory to pretty much all the guy's actions since arriving in the WWE.

No clear motive established bar the heel turn by numbers crap.

C-. Needs improvement.

Moneymaker

But heels logic for what they did has always been questionable. That's why they're heels.

Lord TSC

I think the bigger argument last week was when people were saying it wasn't logical. And nothing has changed there; just cause people didn't like the explanation doesn't mean it isn't a logical one..

CSF

Moneymaker wrote: »

But heels logic for what they did has always been questionable. That's why they're heels.

You would like to think The Shield deserve a better storyline than Rikishi.

Clearly Rikishi being the one who ran Stone Cold over is up there with the most ridiculous storylines there.

I find it hard to accept that the WWE couldn't have made a compelling and believable storyline out of this. They're just lazy.

Moneymaker

CSF wrote: »

You would like to think The Shield deserve a better storyline than Rikishi.

Clearly Rikishi being the one who ran Stone Cold over is up there with the most ridiculous storylines there.

I find it hard to accept that the WWE couldn't have made a compelling and believable storyline out of this. They're just lazy.

It was just an example. The point is, heels are full of crap. That's why they are heels.

And I found Ambrose's promo pretty damn compelling.

CSF

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I think the bigger argument last week was when people were saying it wasn't logical. And nothing has changed there; just cause people didn't like the explanation doesn't mean it isn't a logical one..

Seth Rollins being a cowardly heel all along? That is not logical. No motive. Even the potential motives that people on here thought they might go with have been largely ignored.

CSF

Moneymaker wrote: »

It was just an example. The point is, heels are full of crap. That's why they are heels.

And I found Ambrose's promo pretty damn compelling.

But the becoming of a heel at the top of the card needs a good story behind it. Otherwise it's just another Big Show turn. Orton turned heel to become WWE champion.

Ambrose could conduct a compelling promo about Santino.

Moneymaker

CSF wrote: »

But the becoming of a heel at the top of the card needs a good story behind it. Otherwise it's just another Big Show turn. Orton turned heel to become WWE champion.

Ambrose could conduct a compelling promo about Santino.

Ah here. :pac:

CSF

Moneymaker wrote: »

Ah here. :pac:

Everything Ambrose does is gold. Always.

Lord TSC

CSF wrote: »

Seth Rollins being a cowardly heel all along? That is not logical. No motive. Even the potential motives that people on here thought they might go with have been largely ignored.

Wait, are we talking about the same guy who participated in 3 on 1 beatdowns for a year and a half? Who rarely got into a "fair" fight, even as a face? Is it really that big a push to believe the guy who was a hired gun for HHH for a fair few months might decide to be a hired gun for HHH?

Blue_Dabadee

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Interesting that sky sports still put that post-watershed announcement before the show even though WWE is PG. Strange WWE don't tell them to stop.

Yeah, I never understand it as well.

Maybe it has something to do with Ofcom.

CSF

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Wait, are we talking about the same guy who participated in 3 on 1 beatdowns for a year and a half? Who rarely got into a "fair" fight, even as a face? Is it really that big a push to believe the guy who was a hired gun for HHH for a fair few months might decide to be a hired gun for HHH?

No it'd be pretty easy to write a good storyline alright, so why not write one?

Lord TSC

CSF wrote: »

No it'd be pretty easy to write a good storyline alright, so why not write one?

Ah, if I let myself get bogged down by that question, I'd likely have abandonded pro-wrestling 20 years ago....

CSF

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Ah, if I let myself get bogged down by that question, I'd likely have abandonded pro-wrestling 20 years ago....

This is the Shield though. If you're gonna break my heart and take away those epic boiler room promos, at least do an epic job of taking it away!!!

Scavenger XIII

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Wait, are we talking about the same guy who participated in 3 on 1 beatdowns for a year and a half? Who rarely got into a "fair" fight, even as a face? Is it really that big a push to believe the guy who was a hired gun for HHH for a fair few months might decide to be a hired gun for HHH?

Thing is the Shield being a heel faction and dishing out unfair beatdowns to others doesn't mean it makes sense for them to turn on each other, it's just not the same thing.

Ganging up on people is an obvious heel trait but the Shield have always had the solidarity of the group as their central theme. Sure you could say Seth was a standard cowardly heel type all along and was just going with the flow to have a gang but that would be completely inconsistent with what we've been shown. Why would he always put his body on the line pulling the craziest high risk stunts to save his teammates? Why would the Shield have repeatedly stepped up to every challenge even when they were heavily outnumbered? I don't think they backed down from anything since turning face.

We could clutch at straws but it just reeks of bad storytelling and making a big swerve for the sake of it. The only angle I'd see as feasible is if Seth was made out as a glory hound who didn't want to share credit for his accomplishments any more, but then why the hell would he become someone else's lapdog again rather than striking out on his own?

LeeJM

CSF wrote: »

This is the Shield though. If you're gonna break my heart and take away those epic boiler room promos, at least do an epic job of taking it away!!!

So you are having a b*tch fit just because basically you dont like it. Hang on lets email HHH and Steph and say the whole company has to be booked the way you want.

He explained that the Shield for him was only ever business and after beating Evolution 3-0 they had nowhere else to go. So he took the selfish option (like a heel should) and beat the **** out of his "brothers" when they were no longer any good to him.

And in case you didnt notice Rollins is now the no1 heel in the company heading into MITB. I just cant grasp what it is you wanted him to say or do?

Lord TSC

CSF wrote: »

This is the Shield though. If you're gonna break my heart and take away those epic boiler room promos, at least do an epic job of taking it away!!!

Listen, I'm not actually saying that it's good or whatever. I'd tend to agree with you that it deserves an epic send off.

But there's two things I'd note...

First, after the useless booking of Daniel Bryan over the last year, after countless stop/start pushes, I've become very jaded and very cynical when it comes to what level of writing I expect from WWE. Typically, if it's a step above a monkey throwing feces at a piece of paper, I tend to give the script a pass. Should I? Probably not. I've argued on here before that we should demand more, but it reaches a stage where I simply can't be bothered waiting for the booking team to get beyond a 6th class level of English. I'll tend, for instance, to base my opinions more on how well the wrestler attempts to sell the story, rather than what the story is. And I think the trio did a really good job this week in the roles laid out for them.

Secondly, the main thing I want out of The Shield right now is that they stay all over the show, continue to put on a fresh story and that WWE get behind them, all of which I think they did this week. As I said last week, it was time for one of the trio to turn, and I honestly do think they made the correct decision of which one to go for, regardless of how short or long term the plan was made.

Could I have written a better break up angle? I'd like to think so. But as for how bad it could have been, I'm pretty happy with how The Shield are being handled over the last two weeks going forward. And I can't wait to see Ambrose and Reigns get their hands on Rollins.

Moneymaker

Great post.

CSF

LeeJM wrote: »

So you are having a b*tch fit just because basically you dont like it. Hang on lets email HHH and Steph and say the whole company has to be booked the way you want.

He explained that the Shield for him was only ever business and after beating Evolution 3-0 they had nowhere else to go. So he took the selfish option (like a heel should) and beat the **** out of his "brothers" when they were no longer any good to him.

And in case you didnt notice Rollins is now the no1 heel in the company heading into MITB. I just cant grasp what it is you wanted him to say or do?

No I'm having a 'bitchfit' because it's **** and makes no sense. There is no realistic argument that The Shield was only ever business to Rollins' character. Trying to get us to accept otherwise after the last year plus, is ridiculous.

Also Rollins is definitely not the number 1 heel heading into MITB. Not even close. Cesaro, HHH and Orton will remain ahead of him in the pecking order and maybe Wyatt too. The fact that I prefer him to all of those is irrelevant. Also I've no issue with Rollins turning heel, just do it properly.

CSF

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Listen, I'm not actually saying that it's good or whatever. I'd tend to agree with you that it deserves an epic send off.

But there's two things I'd note...

First, after the useless booking of Daniel Bryan over the last year, after countless stop/start pushes, I've become very jaded and very cynical when it comes to what level of writing I expect from WWE. Typically, if it's a step above a monkey throwing feces at a piece of paper, I tend to give the script a pass. Should I? Probably not. I've argued on here before that we should demand more, but it reaches a stage where I simply can't be bothered waiting for the booking team to get beyond a 6th class level of English. I'll tend, for instance, to base my opinions more on how well the wrestler attempts to sell the story, rather than what the story is. And I think the trio did a really good job this week in the roles laid out for them.

Secondly, the main thing I want out of The Shield right now is that they stay all over the show, continue to put on a fresh story and that WWE get behind them, all of which I think they did this week. As I said last week, it was time for one of the trio to turn, and I honestly do think they made the correct decision of which one to go for, regardless of how short or long term the plan was made.

Could I have written a better break up angle? I'd like to think so. But as for how bad it could have been, I'm pretty happy with how The Shield are being handled over the last two weeks going forward. And I can't wait to see Ambrose and Reigns get their hands on Rollins.

Not much Id disagree with there.

A Primal Nut

CSF wrote: »

But the becoming of a heel at the top of the card needs a good story behind it. Otherwise it's just another Big Show turn. Orton turned heel to become WWE champion.

He turned his back on his brothers to go with the guys in power to further his career. He dismissed his brothers as business partners; that might not have been true in the past but that's they way he sees it now.

He also developed such an overinflated ego with all the success the Shield have had; that he felt he was carrying the Shield and Reigns/Ambrose were holding him back; he feels he doesn't need them anymore.

He explained it pretty well.

CSF

A Primal Nut wrote: »

He turned his back on his brothers to go with the guys in power to further his career. He dismissed his brothers as business partners; that might not have been true in the past but that's they way he sees it now.

He also developed such an overinflated ego with all the success the Shield have had; that he felt he was carrying the Shield and Reigns/Ambrose were holding him back; he feels he doesn't need them anymore.

He explained it pretty well.

Very little of this was said or implied, which you would expect given it's the promo explaining his turn.

Also, he was pretty clear about having never viewed them as brothers and merely business partners.

All the stuff about how we shouldn't have been surprised didn't help either, considering he has always been the most face of the Shield even when they were heels.

You can't just take your biggest swerve likely this year and not properly develop the story.

Character development in any fictional TV is all about establishing who that character is, how they became the person they are, and why they do the things they do. I don't think Breaking Bad would have been as quite as successful if Walt didn't get cancer, and just randomly started selling meth. Sure, we could all speculate on the internet about potential reasons why, and he could talk about how he has ALWAYS been that way, but it's not good storytelling.

Obviously I don't expect the same level of storytelling from WWE and I don't really care how Santino became obsessed with a puppet cobra, but at the top of your card, the stories you use to sell the show, things need to be well written and the matches need to deliver.

Palo Alto

There's no reason though that the story can't develop organically and you can extrapolate backwards to explain things either. I have a certain amount of faith that it'll tie together enough so that it isn't a big problem.

DM_7

CSF wrote: »

Also a bit of an 'in your face' to the guys saying Rollins' turn would get a good explanation.

'Ive always just viewed them as business partners and never brothers' is ridiculously contradictory to pretty much all the guy's actions since arriving in the WWE.

No clear motive established bar the heel turn by numbers crap.

C-. Needs improvement.

Firstly This:

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I think the bigger argument last week was when people were saying it wasn't logical. And nothing has changed there; just cause people didn't like the explanation doesn't mean it isn't a logical one..

I don't get how the explanation was contradictory to his actions, surely his actions can easily be described as self serving?

He explained that was pretending to be a brother to people he regarded as business partners and when they went as far as they could as a group he severed that relationship.

The explanation was pretty clear and thorough while leaving room for expansion for when he is actually face to face with The Shield.

don't get it, I don't understand what all the controversy your talking about is all about. I mean, you're just talking about what I did last week. Is that the whole deal? Because to me, that wasn't a big deal. I was just doing what was best for business; what was best for my business.

"The Shield, Michael, the greatest faction in the history of WWE, created by me... you don't think I have the right to destroy my own creation? It takes an architect, a mastermind, to put together a faction like The Shield. Do you think Dean Ambrose is in any way responsible for that? Dean Ambrose is a lunatic. Given a week to his own devices, he's face down in a ditch. And Roman Reigns... the golden boy... you'll never see anger or fury in a man like you've seen in Roman Reigns. But without someone to harness that, to control, it he's nothing; he's worthless.

"Dean Ambrose and Roman Reigns are nothing without me. They owe me every ounce of success they have ever achieved.

...

"Let me ask you a question, Michael: Why is this such a surprise? I took The Shield to the very top, as high as we could go. We beat everybody, all right? We conquered the world, Michael. At 'Payback', we beat Evolution in a clean sweep. And with every experience in life you should learn something and you know what I learned from Evolution? I learned that to be a success in this business, you have to evolve. You have to adapt. No, no, no, no, I bought in. I bought in to the evolution of Seth Rollins.

"And another thing, another thing that you won't admit, and that none of you will admit: it took a lot of guts to do what I did last week. And everybody's fixated on the fact that I stabbed my brothers in the back, that I betrayed my brothers. And maybe to Roman Reigns and Dean Ambrose we were brothers. But to me, they were just business partners, and I severed a business relationship.

"For two years, every night I came out here and I put my fist out and I said believe in The Shield. And every night what I meant is what I'm going to tell you right now. It's that you and everybody else better start believing in Seth Rollins.

CSF

Palo Alto wrote: »

There's no reason though that the story can't develop organically and you can extrapolate backwards to explain things either. I have a certain amount of faith that it'll tie together enough so that it isn't a big problem.

I've heard this 'wait and see' thing recently before...

CSF

There are so many holes in that promo. So many. That's the problem. Trying to create a thing where Rollins never bought into the brotherhood of the Shield in the first place is just ridiculous. Farcical. No reasonable person would ever believe that.

DM_7

CSF wrote: »

There are so many holes in that promo. So many. That's the problem. Trying to create a thing where Rollins never bought into the brotherhood of the Shield in the first place is just ridiculous. Farcical. No reasonable person would ever believe that.

Point out the holes and the suggest an alternative superior explanation then.

Or are we back to his actions, the Shield were all best buds nonsense.

CSF

DM-ICE wrote: »

Point out the holes and the suggest an alternative superior explanation then.

Or are we back to his actions, the Shield were all best buds nonsense.

I've just picked up a huge hole and you're randomly calling it nonsense. Of course his actions over the last 2 years are central to the character he is. It is farcical to suggest they were all just a lie.