Violence before Armagh Cavan game

ardmacha

I'm sure this was pre-meditated, in that Armagh were told to be on the stand side and headed in that direction. It wasn't up to Armagh players to get the flag carriers to organise themselves properly.

Armagh were standing in an orderly line and Cavan piled in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlrPZKGiqRU

chinguetti

I wonder if the GAA asked Sky Sports to define 'handbags' and 'pushing and shoving' when they were explaining the rules?:rolleyes:

If anything happens (and I doubt anything will), it will be a fine of 5 grand for each county board from the Ulster Council. The GAA will talk all they like about sorting out these silly fights every year but nothing will ever be done. They could solve all this nonsense in one minute, throw both teams out of the championship and let them go down the route of the CCCC and try and defend their stupidity in that fight.

The only time they ever did anything when a melee happened was Cork and Clare in the hurling in 2006 (?) when a fight broke out in front of the primary teams.

Grimley looked like a right fool trying to pretend that nothing happened when a guy ended up with his arm in a sling.

Lemlin

ardmacha wrote: »

I'm sure this was pre-meditated, in that Armagh were told to be on the stand side and headed in that direction. It wasn't up to Armagh players to get the flag carriers to organise themselves properly.

Armagh were standing in an orderly line and Cavan piled in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlrPZKGiqRU

I expect a very unbiased opinion from someone with the username ardmacha....

copacetic

ardmacha wrote: »

I'm sure this was pre-meditated, in that Armagh were told to be on the stand side and headed in that direction. It wasn't up to Armagh players to get the flag carriers to organise themselves properly.

Armagh were standing in an orderly line and Cavan piled in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlrPZKGiqRU

No, clearly what they should do is line up behind the Cavan flag precipitating a fight and barge in to young children as if they weren't there. Grand. Then someone should without meaning to of course put Cavans best player out of the game.

Afterward they should attempt to do the same thing again like children, barge a Cavan player into the poor flag carrier again so she has to be pulled put of the way by another child, then refuse to move for the ref until there own manager makes them.

All perfectly reasonable.

frostyjacks

chinguetti wrote: »

Grimley looked like a right fool trying to pretend that nothing happened when a guy ended up with his arm in a sling.

I think Grimley would much prefer this flak compared to what he was on the receiving end of last year when they lost.

TCDStudent1

For the posters condemning these scenes,

What would you have done if you were in Cavan's shoes?

It is very similar to the Mayo - Dublin scenario a few years ago. Or the Ireland - England rugby match when Martin Johnson stood on the Ireland end. In those instances, I think Dublin had to go up to the hill to confront Mayo. Psychologically, they could allow Mayo get the upper hand there. In the rugby game, I remember thinking Ireland should have stood directly in front of England where they were supposed to stand. Instead, O'Driscoll made Ireland stand on the grass, not on the red carpet which I felt was a mistake at the time.

Looking at that brief youtube video (I missed the Sundat Game), I can kinda see why Cavan reacted in the way they did.

Question for people at the game: Was there an inkling there was gonna be trouble as Cavan walked over?

Frankie Lee

ardmacha wrote: »

I'm sure this was pre-meditated, in that Armagh were told to be on the stand side and headed in that direction. It wasn't up to Armagh players to get the flag carriers to organise themselves properly.

Armagh were standing in an orderly line and Cavan piled in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlrPZKGiqRU

In fairness it looks like the Cavan players who instigated the scuffle there. It could be argued that it was silly for Armagh to line up behind the Cavan flag but Cavan should have had the leaders to ignore silly mind games.

onlyme!

They didn't do much of that against the aussies when they played them and things got rough!

Dirty Dingus McGee

squadro wrote: »

no effort to take this crap out of the gaa. no more gaa for the kids anymore. they are happy to play other sports that promote teamwork and respect for others.

No more GAA for Kids anymore?

I'm pretty sure there are kids teams up and down the country.

The scenes today weren't nice but I'd be pretty sure that some suspensions will be handed out and, this is the first time in a long while a scuffle like this has broke out at an intercounty match so less of the hyperbole please.

ardmacha

My point is that Armagh did not line up behind the Cavan flag as a wind up, but because they went to the position they were supposed to and Cavan flag was in the wrong place. If the Cavan flag was in the correct outside position and Armagh lined up there , that would be odd, but that did not happen.

As for Cavan's best player being out of the game, who knows what happened there, he was with those that started the hassle and perhaps he should simply have stayed away.

Miccoli

Grimley was right , complete over exaggeration.

delaad

ardmacha wrote: »

I'm sure this was pre-meditated, in that Armagh were told to be on the stand side and headed in that direction. It wasn't up to Armagh players to get the flag carriers to organise themselves properly.

Armagh were standing in an orderly line and Cavan piled in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlrPZKGiqRU

So, name the guilty pre-meditator

Lemlin

ardmacha wrote: »

My point is that Armagh did not line up behind the Cavan flag as a wind up, but because they went to the position they were supposed to and Cavan flag was in the wrong place. If the Cavan flag was in the correct outside position and Armagh lined up there , that would be odd, but that did not happen.

As for Cavan's best player being out of the game, who knows what happened there, he was with those that started the hassle and perhaps he should simply have stayed away.

You mean Martin Dunne was with McKeever, who started the hassle and sought to continue it? Until his own manager had to drag him away.

Do you remember 2004 when Armagh ran through the Caven huddle before the game? I suppose Cavan initiated that too.

bruschi

ardmacha wrote: »

I'm sure this was pre-meditated, in that Armagh were told to be on the stand side and headed in that direction. It wasn't up to Armagh players to get the flag carriers to organise themselves properly.

Armagh were standing in an orderly line and Cavan piled in.

I agree it was pre meditated, but by McKeever. Very obvious what he was at, and your point might make some sense if he didnt keep at it even after the initial melee broke out. What he did was absolute horsecrap, and part of these mind game things some players and teams think they need to do.

He was completely and totally wrong in what he did, and you seem to be taking a similar line to your manager in that it was a nothing incident and that Armagh werent at fault. You line up behind your own flag. Its that bloody simple. For McKeever to get innocent band members caught up in it was a disgrace. There is no excusing what he did. He was the instigator in this. The first action of antagonizing was by Armagh, not Cavan. I dont expect you to see or acknowledge this going by your total lack of blame you attribute ot Armagh in all of this, when in my eyes, as 100% neutral on this, I find them pretty much totally to blame.

Adding insult to injury, pardon the pun, in all of this was the injury suffered by Cavans best player who tore Armagh a new one last year. Again, as a neutral, that looks extremely suspect that in a pre match bust up, Armagh players just happened to injure Cavans best player that has previous top form against them.

I really hope the GAA come down fierce hard on both sides in this. As much as I am blaming Armagh for the most of this, it is no excusing Cavan in any way shape or form. They had their part to play too, and shouldnt have reacted to Armaghs provocation.

J Cheever Loophole

Lemlin wrote: »

You mean Martin Dunne was with McKeever, who started the hassle and sought to continue it? Until his own manager had to drag him away.

You'll forgive me, but that's an extremely one eyed view. It's already been detailed here - protocol states that the home team should be on the outside of the parade, just as Cavan were at Breffni Park last year. Mc Keever could reasonably argue he was following protocol.

As an Armagh man, I'll accept that it could be seen as provocative, and if it was McKeever's intention to provoke, then he could not have wished for a better response from the Cavan lads, given the aggressive manner in which they barged into the Armagh line - it was always going to kick off from there.

I've looked closely at the video footage several times and I don't believe it was as serious as is being made out - that said, it doesn't portray a good image and I get a sense from the reaction in the press that the GAA will feel obliged to make a hard hitting point which is likely to mean a number of our lads suspended.

As for the squeamish here looking for both teams to be kicked out of the Championship..........:o

J Cheever Loophole

bruschi wrote: »

I agree it was pre meditated, but by McKeever. Very obvious what he was at, and your point might make some sense if he didnt keep at it even after the initial melee broke out. What he did was absolute horsecrap, and part of these mind game things some players and teams think they need to do.

He was completely and totally wrong in what he did, and you seem to be taking a similar line to your manager in that it was a nothing incident and that Armagh werent at fault. You line up behind your own flag. Its that bloody simple. For McKeever to get innocent band members caught up in it was a disgrace. There is no excusing what he did. He was the instigator in this. The first action of antagonizing was by Armagh, not Cavan. I dont expect you to see or acknowledge this going by your total lack of blame you attribute ot Armagh in all of this, when in my eyes, as 100% neutral on this, I find them pretty much totally to blame.

Adding insult to injury, pardon the pun, in all of this was the injury suffered by Cavans best player who tore Armagh a new one last year. Again, as a neutral, that looks extremely suspect that in a pre match bust up, Armagh players just happened to injure Cavans best player that has previous top form against them.

I really hope the GAA come down fierce hard on both sides in this. As much as I am blaming Armagh for the most of this, it is no excusing Cavan in any way shape or form. They had their part to play too, and shouldnt have reacted to Armaghs provocation.

Thank you for giving me a new understanding of the word neutral.

bruschi

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

Thank you for giving me a new understanding of the word neutral.

how is it new? I have no ties to either county and am viewing as a neutral GAA viewer from Wexford. Is it because I dont agree with your counties actions that makes me non neutral?

J Cheever Loophole

bruschi wrote: »

how is it new? I have no ties to either county and am viewing as a neutral GAA viewer from Wexford. Is it because I dont agree with your counties actions that makes me non neutral?

Have a read again at the length of your rant, the language used and the balance provided. Speaks volumes for your neutrality, irrespective of what county you are from.

Hitchens

Adrenalin, nervous energy, manly aggression, all bottled up pre-match will do that on rare occasions.

Notice that the actual match itself went by in the usual way, just unlucky that one player suffered an injury during the fracas.

bruschi

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

Have a read again at the length of your rant, the language used and the balance provided. Speaks volumes for your neutrality, irrespective of what county you are from.

no, you just dont know the definition of a neutral viewpoint. I watched it with no pre conceived veiwpoint. After I saw it, my opinion was that McKeever and Armagh were the instigators in a really stupid mind playing tactic. So you are correct, you have just learned a new definition of neutral. Just because my opinion was that I see Armagh as the ones in the wrong, doesnt make my view any less neutral.

iDave

Theres always faux outrage from former players when this happens, who you know would love to get stuck in themselves.
It shouldn't happen over something as silly as the match parade but lets not overreact. What annoys me the most is some auld eejit in the stand thinks he can join in.

Past30Now

As (another) neutral, I think the majority of blame lies with the Cavan players. Armagh may have attempted to goad them, but they fell for it, and dived into the Armagh line. Losing their best player in advance of the game is a price they paid for their stupidity.

There will be fines and suspensions handed out. The idea of both teams being ejected from the championship, while probably effective in stopping this kind of thing happening again, won't happen. It would be a disproportional reaction.

As far the poster who's not going to allow his kids play GAA on the basis of this incident, I suggest that he reconsiders. My kid gets more out of the GAA than any other activity.

SpaceTime

As a casual observer, I saw footage of this and honestly it brings the game into disrepute.

If it were any other game both teams would probably be suspended from the league.

Abysmal behaviour.

You either crack down on it with very serious penalties like that or it will happen again.

These are grown men and should be able to walk down a tunnel together without having a scrap.

Honestly if that happened in rugby or soccer careers would be over.

Ceist_Beag

iDave wrote: »

Theres always faux outrage from former players when this happens, who you know would love to get stuck in themselves.
It shouldn't happen over something as silly as the match parade but lets not overreact. What annoys me the most is some auld eejit in the stand thinks he can join in.

I hear where you're coming from but I think it is a little bit more serious than you suggest. Firstly the best player on the Cavan team had his arm broken - that's not some minor skirmish. Secondly there were children in the band who were jostled and scared and could very easily have been hurt by the players. Hyland was spot on in his post match comments - Grimley was embarrassing in his. I certainly don't think team bans are in order here but as the instigator I think McKeever should definitely be hit with a lengthy ban and anyone shown throwing punches (or worse kicks) should be given a shorter term ban, and finally the GAA absolutely have to get to the bottom of what happened do Dunne and make a real example of the offender. There is absolutely no excuse for a player having his arm broken in a brawl before a match. That is not an overreaction, that is simply making sure the GAA stands by the ethos they claim to promote. I also expect the GPA to be vocal in this - after all they are supposed to represent the players so should stand up for Dunne here.

bruschi

Past30Now wrote: »

As (another) neutral, I think the majority of blame lies with the Cavan players. Armagh may have attempted to goad them, but they fell for it, and dived into the Armagh line. Losing their best player in advance of the game is a price they paid for their stupidity.

There will be fines and suspensions handed out. The idea of both teams being ejected from the championship, while probably effective in stopping this kind of thing happening again, won't happen. It would be a disproportional reaction.

As far the poster who's not going to allow his kids play GAA on the basis of this incident, I suggest that he reconsiders. My kid gets more out of the GAA than any other activity.

the beauty of these forums, everyone has an opinion on it. I just hope the Cavan posters dont try claim you're not a neutral just because you blame Cavan!

agree with the second paragraph though. The teams wont be thrown out. they should be hit with heavy and sever fines, and suspensions for any players they can accurately pick out for striking.

Gary Neville

There's a tendency for all players to pile in during these type of incidents as players know that a ref can't send off 5 or 6 players from each side.

Tadhg Kenneally (Kerry) took out Nick Murphy with shoulder to the head, early in the 2009 AI Final and later admitted that it was premeditated. Lots of Cork Supporters suggested that Cork Players should have all piled in on Kenneally.

There was a similar incident in the Cork v Waterford Hurling game just after a penalty save. The Waterford keeper barged into Anthony Nash and a schmozzle broke out. TSG didn't even refer to in last night. We also had an incident where a Waterford player hit a Cork player with his hurley, off the ball - the ref didn't give a card and Ger Loughnane said that it wasn't a red card offence because he hit him in an area where he wouldn't do any real damage (or words to that effect)

It's not clear whether Armagh lined up in the correct side and the flag was on the wrong side or whether it was a 'Martin Johnston' effort but it looked like Cavan Player(s) decided to barge Aramgh out of the way and it kicked off from there. It's easy with hindsight but maybe the Cavan Captain should have asked the ref to address the matter.

Croke Park will be more sensitive than normal now as the game is going to a wider audience.

Looked like a few black card offences during the incident - can black cards be issued before games start ?

Langerland

Gary Neville wrote: »

t. We also had an incident where a Waterford player hit a Cork player with his hurley, off the ball - the ref didn't give a card and Ger Loughnane said that it wasn't a red card offence because he hit him in an area where he wouldn't do any real damage (or words to that effect).

Heard Loughnanes comments....very funny....but probably not what you want to hear! I didn't know he had a medical background!

SeaFields

Gary Neville wrote: »

Looked like a few black card offences during the incident - can black cards be issued before games start ?

No. The black card is for cynical play. The game hadn't started so cynical play not an issue. Ref could have flashed reds or yellows afaik.

Grudaire

I heard it alleged that the Cavan player (Martin Dunne) hurt his hand by punching someone. (from a totally biased source in my office)

I am looking forward to what the GAA decide on this. Seems to me like the blame could be heaped on either team, and both teams should take some blame. It was clearly quite aggressive handbags, definitely more than a few pushes.

tayto lover

Grudaire wrote: »

I heard it alleged that the Cavan player (Martin Dunne) hurt his hand by punching someone. (from a totally biased source in my office)

I am looking forward to what the GAA decide on this. Seems to me like the blame could be heaped on either team, and both teams should take some blame. It was clearly quite aggressive handbags, definitely more than a few pushes.

BUT they would say that, wouldn't they?

nxbyveromdwjpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGtlUiZoo5g

Grudaire

tayto lover wrote: »

BUT they would say that, wouldn't they?

Maybe he could see the truth :pac:



My solution would be to ban ALL flags up North... and make smiling compulsary :pac:

willabur

I am from cavan and the incident took place right in front of me.
There was a lad from armagh with his son right infront of us and he agreed with us that Mckeever took position he knew to be antagonising for the Cavan team. It was obvious before even cavan got over there that they were looking to rile them up, it is not in dispute. Now, as a Cavan man I wish that the lads had have just joined the line and smiled at the armagh boys rather than sink to the level that armagh wanted them to sink to, Instead the cavan captain came right into mckeever and hit him a shoulder and the whole thing took off.

It was impossible to see everything but the majority of it was tussling shoving and headlocks. Couple of lads hit the ground, armagh had a few cavan lads pinned down. A Cavan player, who went onto have an awful game kicked an armagh player lying down with his back to him - a despicable act. He should be banned for the rest of the summer. Didn't see the dunne incident so I cannot speculate whether he was targetted or not.

Tom Joad

The problem with all the footage I've seen of this is that it doesn't show what happened and you cannot suspend anybody based on the footage shown. What is particularly nasty about this incident is that the band were caught up in it. I would be very interested to hear what the two girls carrying the flags have to say about what went on in the lead up.

I still think that this was a premeditated move by Armagh to line up behind the wrong flag in an attempt to wind Cavan up. In this day and age with the mind games it's a growing feature off the game. Why the two girls didn't swap sides with the flags I don't know - Mc Keever asked the girl with the Cavan flag to move as I saw it. Cavan fell for it hook line and sinker though and barrelling in to the Armagh players was a stupid thing to do. But at the end of the day a Cavan footballer came away from it with his arm in a sling and that needs to be investigated fully - as does Donaghy coming away with a cut above his eye.

But these things are seen now as part and parcel of the game and that won't change until serious action is taken.

Let's face it Armagh were lying waiting for Cavan yesterday and after last year they were up for it. Cavan are seen as a nice team and a bit of a soft-touch and easily wound up. Fermanagh tried to do it last year and Armagh used this to their advantage and it worked a treat. Before the ball was thrown in Armagh had laid down a marker and it contributed to their victory. Nothing against Armagh who were by far the better team on the day and whose supporters are some of the best in Ulster but in a game where winning at all costs is what it's all about, Grimley and McGeeney will be delighted with the outcome. They are also safe in the knowledge that once the media frenzy dies down this will be forgotten about and their will be no real action taken by the GAA.

changepartners

Whatever about the seriousness of the fight it was very unfair to the kids in the band to brawl in front of them and for them to have to flee.

Lemlin

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

You'll forgive me, but that's an extremely one eyed view. It's already been detailed here - protocol states that the home team should be on the outside of the parade, just as Cavan were at Breffni Park last year. Mc Keever could reasonably argue he was following protocol.

As an Armagh man, I'll accept that it could be seen as provocative, and if it was McKeever's intention to provoke, then he could not have wished for a better response from the Cavan lads, given the aggressive manner in which they barged into the Armagh line - it was always going to kick off from there.

I've looked closely at the video footage several times and I don't believe it was as serious as is being made out - that said, it doesn't portray a good image and I get a sense from the reaction in the press that the GAA will feel obliged to make a hard hitting point which is likely to mean a number of our lads suspended.

As for the squeamish here looking for both teams to be kicked out of the Championship..........:o

I've never heard of this protocol before to be honest. Could you point to where it has come from? Last night was the first mention I ever heard of it on The Sunday Game and even they said it was coming from Armagh quarters.

I have no problem with Cavan players receiving bans. Might teach them not to get drawn into this sort of crap again and I can assure you I'd imagine Terry will have given them what for yesterday evening too.

Hopefully this is the kick up the arse that we need to get back in gear.

ardmacha

Lemlin wrote: »

Do you remember 2004 when Armagh ran through the Caven huddle before the game? I suppose Cavan initiated that too.

How far back are we going to go? An Armagh player was killed against Cavan in 1929, what's your explanation of that?

Lemlin wrote: »

I've never heard of this protocol before to be honest. Could you point to where it has come from? Last night was the first mention I ever heard of it on The Sunday Game and even they said it was coming from Armagh quarters.

Well this is Breffni Park last year, Cavan on the stand side. It was perfectly reasonable to expect the reverse of this yesterday and I imagine any pre-match discussion of the arrangements envisaged this.



Everyone is ranting about McKeever, he broke no rule by standing where he did and so cannot be sanctioned for breaking a non existent rule. When subsequently instructed by officials to move to the other side, he did so.

willabur

having witnessed what went from about 10 yards away this statement is quite funny. McKeever knew exactly what he was doing yesterday and I would say was delighted with the consequences of said action

ArmaniJeanss

Perhaps they'll suspend the band and the flagbearers for a few matches.

J Cheever Loophole

Lemlin wrote: »

I've never heard of this protocol before to be honest. Could you point to where it has come from? Last night was the first mention I ever heard of it on The Sunday Game and even they said it was coming from Armagh quarters.

I'll confess I wasn't even aware of it myself until this incident. What is clear is that McKeever was aware of it and I'd assume this was on the basis of a discussion with an Ulster Council official at the game. On that basis he asked the youngster with the flag to move across.

willabur

It wasn't a youngster with a flag. And whatever mckeever said he didn't hang around long enough for an answer

ardmacha

Perhaps they'll suspend the band and the flagbearers for a few matches.

Armagh want the same flag bearer for the semi final!

willabur wrote: »

It wasn't a youngster with a flag. And whatever mckeever said he didn't hang around long enough for an answer

What do you mean McKeever didn't hang around? He didn't move anywhere until the Cavan man hit him a clatter!

willabur

ardmacha wrote: »

Armagh want the same flag bearer for the semi final!



What do you mean McKeever didn't hang around? He didn't move anywhere until the Cavan man hit him a clatter!

He touched the woman who was holding the Armagh flag on the shoulder said something to her then moved over behind the Cavan flag.

Lemlin

ardmacha wrote: »

Everyone is ranting about McKeever, he broke no rule by standing where he did and so cannot be sanctioned for breaking a non existent rule. When subsequently instructed by officials to move to the other side, he did so.

This paragraph above shows the bias of your posting. You are aware Grimley had to come down and pull McKeever away from where he was standing? He didn't move for any official.

FRom the Belfast Telegraph:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/gaa/armagh-v-cavan-prematch-brawl-stuns-youngsters-30338557.html

After the situation was calmed, Cavan took their place behind their flag again, but McKeever walked up their line and stood in front of their captain, Alan Clarke.

Armagh manager Paul Grimley acted as peacemaker, instructing McKeever to stand in the correct line. It was messy and nasty looking and any amount of flinty rebuttals that this in some way adds to the traditional Ulster Championship intensity should be challenged vigorously.

and further down:

Keating then missed a simple free before half-time and as the sides were leaving the field he received a blow to the back. Referee Marty Duffy chose to book Keating, just one example in a long line of ludicrous decisions.

Perhaps you could answer one question for me, have you seen the pictures of a supporter striking Feargal Flanagan on the head? I've been told here this morning that apparently he's an ex Armagh player.

Was he? The pictures are all over Twitter. They were retweeted by Official Cavan GAA account last night.

celt262

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

I'll confess I wasn't even aware of it myself until this incident. What is clear is that McKeever was aware of it and I'd assume this was on the basis of a discussion with an Ulster Council official at the game. On that basis he asked the youngster with the flag to move across.

I don't think it is up to Mckeever to tell the flag holder where to stand the Ulster council officials should have been the ones to tell her to move over. I think they have allot to answer for there were two of them wandering around that area at the time and could have had the whole thing sorted before anything started.

It was a disgrace what happened and the TV don't show the really bad acts that were carried out and may same some players from long suspensions.

STB

Whatever mind games were at play or protocols were or were not followed, the antics of both teams do not belong on the field, given their proximity in among the band, most of which were kids, especially before a ball was even thrown in.

http://www.livegaelic.com/news/pictures-armagh-v-cavan-pre-match-scrap/

The GAA response to this should be swift and harsh.

nuac

1. Anybody know whether it is the ref or the host county board or a provincial official who controls matters prior to the match starting.

2. I thought something similar might have happened at the Ireland/England Rugby match some years back ( where Martin Johnson lined his men out in the wrong place.

rockonollie

It's pathetic really to start a 30 man brawl over who gets to line up where for the parade......hope the GAA come down heavy on both sides, and it could ruin the championship chances of both sides.

Howshocowpownw

What's this ?

Violence, shocking stuff, throw both teams out lol

It was a few punches and pushing/shoving. You lads should stick to the soccer.

celt262

Howshocowpownw wrote: »

What's this ?

Violence, shocking stuff, throw both teams out lol

It was a few punches and pushing/shoving. You lads should stick to the soccer.

No team will be throw out but there was a bit more than pushing/shoving the tv doesn't show some nasty acts.