The Sunday Game Thread

washman3

Godge wrote: »

How anyone can talk about Aidan O'Shea as player of the year when Philly McMahon took him for 1-2 in the All-Ireland semi replay, I just don't know.

Have to agree. Not even Mayo's best forward this year let alone at 14 on TOTY. Scored a very good goal v Donegal (who were a spent force anyway) but his displays in Connacht should be disregarded such is the poor quality of opposition. Failed miserably once again on the 'big' stage as he has consistently done at the same stage over the last few seasons.
It appears that the SG panel always need a 'teachers pet' (Emmet Bolton is a previous case in point) and AOS fits that bill at present.
I assume he was picked at 14 as a consolation prize for young O'Connor losing out (undeservedly) to Donncha Walshe at 12.
Andrews was also a victim of 'the process' losing out as Dublin already had a large 'quota'.
For me he should have been picked at 14. He did the opposite to AOS, ie performed when it mattered most, on the big stage.

washman3

On a side note, another huge cop-out by the SG 'panel'
Fenton had a very good game but was a long way behind McMahon for MOTM.
The Donaghy incident put paid to that.!!
The panel showing themselves to be incompetent.

DanielODonnell

Come to think of it McMahon does look like a sort you would meet on the Falls road outside a kebab shop

paintitwhite

Yet another week where Whelan mouths on about refereeing and black card consistency. If only he applied those standards to how he dealt with issues surrounding Tiernan McCann and Philly McMahon throughout the summer. Funny thing is I disliked him as a player but his punditry had grown on me until recently.

Stoner

P_Cash wrote:

AOS, the Lad plays well against lower level teams, no where to be seen in the two dub games,

Ahh not sure that's fair. Nobody's marked him singlehandedly. If mayo had more forwards they'd make hay with the space .

Stoner

pajoguy wrote:

Just the throwing eyes up to heaven and chatting to o rourke when pat spillane was answering a question put directly to him. It was literally from the start. He does great work for the organ donor movement but he is very irritating.

I have to agree, O'Rourke looks embarrassed by being dragged into it sometimes. Spillane can be a pain sometimes, but I recognize he is a legend and Brolly laughing behind his back like a sly child is poor form.

I'm sick of hearing about Pats 8 all Ireland's and 10 appearances too, but I was glad he reminded Brolly that he had ten to his one today

corny

washman3 wrote: »

Have to agree. Not even Mayo's best forward this year let alone at 14 on TOTY. Scored a very good goal v Donegal (who were a spent force anyway) but his displays in Connacht should be disregarded such is the poor quality of opposition. Failed miserably once again on the 'big' stage as he has consistently done at the same stage over the last few seasons.
It appears that the SG panel always need a 'teachers pet' (Emmet Bolton is a previous case in point) and AOS fits that bill at present.
I assume he was picked at 14 as a consolation prize for young O'Connor losing out (undeservedly) to Donncha Walshe at 12.
Andrews was also a victim of 'the process' losing out as Dublin already had a large 'quota'.
For me he should have been picked at 14. He did the opposite to AOS, ie performed when it mattered most, on the big stage.

Agreed. McCarthy should be in there too. Dublin's best half back over the three games that mattered. Keegan was OK but unspectacular IMO.

AOS being predictably picked still defies belief. Lad was an outright liability to his team.

robbiezero

corny wrote: »

Agreed. McCarthy should be in there too. Dublin's best half back over the three games that mattered. Keegan was OK but unspectacular IMO.

AOS being predictably picked still defies belief. Lad was an outright liability to his team.

Keegan has been excellent all year. Well deserves his place. AOS is probably lucky to be on it alright.

Hitchens

washman3 wrote: »

It appears that the SG panel always need a 'teachers pet' (Emmet Bolton is a previous case in point) and AOS fits that bill at present.
.

Yeah, same in the hurling with Joe Canning

Godge

Stoner wrote: »

Ahh not sure that's fair. Nobody's marked him singlehandedly. If mayo had more forwards they'd make hay with the space .

Nobody marks Bernard Brogan singlehandedly yet he scored 6-20 from play this year. Yet all the talk in the media before the semi was O'Shea for Player of the Year and his man scored 1-2 off him over the two games.

robbiezero

Godge wrote: »

Nobody marks Bernard Brogan singlehandedly yet he scored 6-20 from play this year. Yet all the talk in the media before the semi was O'Shea for Player of the Year and his man scored 1-2 off him over the two games.

Don't think I have ever seen him double-marked.

Figsy32

Godge wrote: »

Nobody marks Bernard Brogan singlehandedly yet he scored 6-20 from play this year. Yet all the talk in the media before the semi was O'Shea for Player of the Year and his man scored 1-2 off him over the two games.

Kerry went man for man on Brogan yesterday. And Mayo did in both games in the semis. But hey, don't let facts get in the way of your bias.

O'Shea was usually faced with 2 on 1 situations just to contest the ball, and then generally had a third man in on him if he came down with it.

To compare the attention that O'Shea got against Dublin to what Brogan got throughout the championship is laughable.

Pretty sure the McMahon goal came after Seamie OShea got a black card and Aidan O'Shea was playing midfield as a result so your other point isn't strictly true either.

Stoner

corny wrote:

Agreed. McCarthy should be in there too. Dublin's best half back over the three games that mattered. Keegan was OK but unspectacular IMO.

Plus McCarthy blocked his effort at a point in the replay, people keep saying Keegan went for goal etc but if you look at the replay he got a hand in.

McCarty has been my favourite Dublin halfback since 2011. Tough and gets forward only when needed

keeponhurling

Hitchens wrote: »

Yeah, same in the hurling with Joe Canning

Joe Canning didnt make it onto the SG team of the year

Hitchens

keeponhurling wrote: »

Joe Canning didnt make it onto the SG team of the year

There's a limit to which even those boys will embarrass themselves

ProudDUB

Figsy32 wrote: »

Kerry went man for man on Brogan yesterday. And Mayo did in both games in the semis. But hey, don't let facts get in the way of your bias.

O'Shea was usually faced with 2 on 1 situations just to contest the ball, and then generally had a third man in on him if he came down with it.

To compare the attention that O'Shea got against Dublin to what Brogan got throughout the championship is laughable.

Pretty sure the McMahon goal came after Seamie OShea got a black card and Aidan O'Shea was playing midfield as a result so your other point isn't strictly true either.

Go back and look at the McMahon goal again. By the time the the ball was released, there were 4 Mayo player solely focused on him and what he was going to do with the ball. Yet the ball still wound up in the back of the net. That is par for the course with him. Does he have 2-4 players dragging out of him for the entirety of each and every game? No he doesn't. But as soon as he gets the ball into his hands and into danger territory, you better believe he comes in for some special treatment. Trying to justify & explain O'Shea's continual disappearing acts in big games, is getting more and more laughable, when lads half his size have been dealing with the same treatment for years, yet they just get on with the job.

Figsy32

ProudDUB wrote: »

Go back and look at the McMahon goal again. By the time the the ball was released, there were 4 Mayo player solely focused on him and what he was going to do with the ball. Yet the ball still wound up in the back of the net. That is par for the course with him. Does he have 2-4 players dragging out of him for the entirety of each and every game? No he doesn't. But as soon as he gets the ball into his hands and into danger territory, you better believe he comes in for some special treatment. Trying to justify & explain O'Shea's continual disappearing acts in big games, is getting more and more laughable, when lads half his size have been dealing with the same treatment for years, yet they just get on with the job.

You're arguing a completely different point though. I'm not saying AOS is better than Brogan because I don't think he is. What I'm saying, and you say it yourself in your post is that they've faced completely different things this year in terms of how they were marked.

Its obvious that when anybody is running in on goal that there'll be men close on him. The difference with O'Shea in the two semis was that there was 3 people on him when he was contesting the ball. Brogan, for the most part, has only one guy contesting the ball with him when he goes looking for it. I don't see what's wrong pointing that out when the other poster was wrongly saying otherwise?

I'm not making excuses for O'Shea. I actually prefer Brogan as a player. I'm from Cork so don't have an attachment to either. I was merely pointing out that they faced very different things and that the comparison the other poster made was a red herring.

robbiezero

ProudDUB wrote: »

Go back and look at the McMahon goal again. By the time the the ball was released, there were 4 Mayo player solely focused on him and what he was going to do with the ball. Yet the ball still wound up in the back of the net. That is par for the course with him. Does he have 2-4 players dragging out of him for the entirety of each and every game? No he doesn't. But as soon as he gets the ball into his hands and into danger territory, you better believe he comes in for some special treatment. Trying to justify & explain O'Shea's continual disappearing acts in big games, is getting more and more laughable, when lads half his size have been dealing with the same treatment for years, yet they just get on with the job.

There is a difference between being double and triple marked and getting a ball and taking on your man and finding more defenders being drawn to you.
How would Brogan get on at the edge of the square with two or more men on him, with crap ball being kicked in to him.

keane2097

robbiezero wrote: »

How would Brogan get on at the edge of the square with two or more men on him, with crap ball being kicked in to him.

He would probably get on terribly and be completely ineffective, and not be in the running for an All Star.

Stoner

keane2097 wrote:

He would probably get on terribly and be completely ineffective, and not be in the running for an All Star.

Did ok in 2011 versus the McGees, double marked and man of the match.

washman3

keane2097 wrote: »

He would probably get on terribly and be completely ineffective, and not be in the running for an All Star.

Exactly. you said it all it one sentence there.
Dozens of players could be considered for TOTY and All-Stars based on performances against completely inferior/rookie opposition in both football and hurling.
But something is seriously wrong when a player 'disappears' on the big occasions, yet is touted as top class material because he is 'media friendly'

robbiezero

Stoner wrote: »

Did ok in 2011 versus the McGees, double marked and man of the match.

Got it for scoring 4 good frees. Didn't score from play and was fairly ineffective.
Largely ineffective v Donegal last year also.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

STB.

robbiezero wrote: »

Don't think I have ever seen him double-marked.

You dont watch a lot of football then. Either that or you are not paying attention to what you are watching.

Bernard always has multiple players hanging out of him.

robbiezero

STB. wrote: »

You dont watch a lot of football then. Either that or you are not paying attention to what you are watching.

Bernard always has multiple players hanging out of him.

Well lets just take a not so random sample of every championship game this year he played in then.
In which of these games was he double marked?

Stoner

robbiezero wrote:

Got it for scoring 4 good frees. Didn't score from play and was fairly ineffective

He got is for holding the line and winning primary ball, he won most of those frees himself if I remember correctly. I only mentioned 2011.

Not too many lads win man of the match awards while being ineffective. I'd question the basis of your argument here.

STB.

robbiezero wrote: »

Well lets just take a not so random sample of every championship game this year he played in then.
In which of these games was he double marked?

No. Lets go back to your point that you have never seen him double marked.

Google it. I am not doing it for you.

I already know you are talking out your backside as I watch the game.

robbiezero

STB. wrote: »

No. Lets go back to your point that you have never seen him double marked.

Google it. I am not doing it for you.

I already know you are talking out your backside as I watch the game.

He was not double marked in any knock out championship game this year and I don't think he was in Leinster championship either (I can't be arsed trying to remember if some of the Leinster teams tried it).
There you go. Is that incorrect?

STB.

robbiezero wrote: »

He was not double marked in any knock out championship game this year and I don't think he was in Leinster championship either (I can't be arsed trying to remember if some of the Leinster teams tried it).
There you go. Is that incorrect?

That's not what you said the first time.

The double marking of Brogan was a problem going back some time. Infact so such so that people where beginning to question his effectiveness with Jim Gavin having to come out and talk about the double marking. Of course the advantage is that there are other players not being marked as a result.

Go to sportsfile. You'll see a lot of photos where there are more than one player around him as he is kicking or attempting to in a lot of cases with players hanging out of him like this.



Here I googled it for you: http://www.sportsfile.com/search/bernard-brogan/

robbiezero

STB. wrote: »

That's not what you said the first time.

The double marking of Brogan was a problem going back some time. Infact so such so that people where beginning to question his effectiveness with Jim Gavin having to come out and talk about the double marking. Of course the advantage is that there are other players not being marked as a result.

Go to sportsfile. You'll see a lot of photos where there are more than one player around him as he is kicking or attempting to in a lot of cases with players hanging out of him like this.



Here I googled it for you: http://www.sportsfile.com/search/bernard-brogan/

He must have been triple marked so as Cafferkey was the man marking him from what I remember, and he is not even in the photo.
Two lads tackling a man != double marking.

robbiezero

Stoner wrote: »

He got is for holding the line and winning primary ball, he won most of those frees himself if I remember correctly. I only mentioned 2011.

Not too many lads win man of the match awards while being ineffective. I'd question the basis of your argument here.

Ok, I'll concede the point somewhat, he was still kept scoreless. Aidan O Shea won a few frees too and scored.
My overall point is that it is not really fair to have a go at O'Shea for going missing in big games, when he was being double and triple marked and had to deal with an atrocious supply of ball.
It was a charge that used also be levelled unfairly at Ciaran Whelan, when it was usually just that teams used to plan to keep him out of the game.

STB.

robbiezero wrote: »

He must have been triple marked so as Cafferkey was the man marking him from what I remember, and he is not even in the photo.
Two lads tackling a man != double marking.

Don't be getting yourself all over excited.

Swarm defending. It doesnt matter that neither is his marker. This is the constant pressure he has been under during the chamionship yet he still has managed to score a monstrous tally.

Now lets get back to your point.

robbiezero wrote: »

How would Brogan get on at the edge of the square with two or more men on him, with crap ball being kicked in to him.

Quite well actually. He has done so all year. Brogan actually wanders the pitch. Runs for the ball, has the ability to turn on a sixpence and sticks the ball between the posts, from distance. He is not as one dimensional as AOS waiting for the ball to be lobbed into him. He is constantly running between players and through players.

Would you like more photos of that ? I am guessing you like photos.

robbiezero

STB. wrote: »

Don't be getting yourself all over excited.

Swarm defending. It doesnt matter that neither is his marker. This is the constant pressure he has been under during the chamionship yet he still has managed to score a monstrous tally.

Now lets get back to your point.



Quite well actually. He has done so all year. Brogan actually wanders the pitch. Runs for the ball, has the ability to turn on a sixpence and sticks the ball between the posts, from distance. He is not as one dimensional as AOS waiting for the ball to be lobbed into him. He is constantly running between players and through players.

Would you like more photos of that ? I am guessing you like photos.

I'm going to leave the argument with you there, because you have not got a clue what double-marking actually means.
But by all means keep posting up photos's.

Actually here is one for you that shows what double marking actually is
http://www.sportsfile.com/id/1050898/

STB.

robbiezero wrote: »

I'm going to leave the argument with you there, because you have not got a clue what double-marking actually means.
But by all means keep posting up photos's.

Oh I do. I also know how hard it would be to rack up 6-22, 6-21 of which was from play. What did the mighty AOS get from play ?

I am not even going to re-point you to your original post again as you still don't get it.

When you come out with bald statements like "Don't think I have ever seen him double-marked", don't think you wont be called out on it by someone on the internet!

robbiezero wrote: »

Actually here is one for you that shows what double marking actually is
http://www.sportsfile.com/id/1050898/

And what is your point. You were responding to this post below.

ProudDUB wrote: »

Go back and look at the McMahon goal again. By the time the the ball was released, there were 4 Mayo player solely focused on him and what he was going to do with the ball. Yet the ball still wound up in the back of the net. That is par for the course with him. Does he have 2-4 players dragging out of him for the entirety of each and every game? No he doesn't. But as soon as he gets the ball into his hands and into danger territory, you better believe he comes in for some special treatment. Trying to justify & explain O'Shea's continual disappearing acts in big games, is getting more and more laughable, when lads half his size have been dealing with the same treatment for years, yet they just get on with the job.

I am presuming AOS is still waiting for the ball to be kicked into him. Would someone please tell him he come in off the pitch, the championship is over for 2015.

Stoner

Don't leave Robbie, pop your headphones on.

https://youtu.be/-0BNhOyMhjY

Listen to the first comment about the amount of players around Brogan.

Watch the first score on this video its a free won, taken and scored by Brogan.

Also the final score was a free won, taken and scored by Brogan. That's two points in the second half from frees he won and scored. That equals the same amount that the entire Donegal team put together. I didn't even look at the other clips.

Donegal scored 6 points that day, only 2 in the second half . Dublin only scored 8.

In this game 4 points was far from ineffective.

I'm not having a pop at Donegal btw, just highlighting why he was man of the match and double marked.

robbiezero

STB. wrote: »

Oh I do. I also know how hard it would be to rack up 6-22, 6-21 of which was from play. What did the mighty AOS get from play ?

I am not even going to re-point you to your original post again as you still don't get it.

When you come out with bald statements like "Don't think I have ever seen him double-marked", don't think you wont be called out on it by someone on the internet!



And what is your point. You were responding to this post below.


I am presuming AOS is still waiting for the ball to be kicked into him. Would someone please tell him he come in off the pitch, the championship is over for 2015.

Yes. You have shown me up with your photos of two lads tackling Bernard.
To say thanks, here is a photo for your collection of a Kerry lad being marked by 8 Tyrone lads

robbiezero

Stoner wrote: »

Don't leave Robbie, pop your headphones on.

https://youtu.be/-0BNhOyMhjY

Listen to the first comment about the amount of players around Brogan.

Watch the first score on this video its a free won, taken and scored by Brogan.

Also the final score was a free won, taken and scored by Brogan. That's two points in the second half from frees he won and scored, . That equals the same amount that the entire Donegal team put together. I didn't even look at the other clips.

Donegal scored 6 points that day, only 2 in the second half . Dublin only scored 8.

In this game 4 points was far from ineffective.

I'm not having a pop at Donegal btw, just highlighting why he was man of the match and double marked.

Fine, I'll concede that instead of never been double marked, he is very very rarely double marked and played well enough that day, Aidan O Shea also won two frees v Dublin. Now can we go back to the main point of Aidan O'Shea going missing because he is a poor player or he is double marked on a team unable to get decent ball into him.

aveytare

From what I remember Bernard had a good game against Donegal in 2012, won a couple of frees, set up what should've been a goal if I remember correctly. He did well considering how defensive Donegal were anyway.

Paulzx

robbiezero wrote: »

Yes. You have shown me up with your photos of two lads tackling Bernard.
To say thanks, here is a photo for your collection of a Kerry lad being marked by 8 Tyrone lads

Jesus!!!!

Even Mickey Harte is tackling him

Stoner

robbiezero wrote:

Fine, I'll concede that instead of never been double marked, he is very very rarely double marked and played well enough that day, Aidan O Shea also won two frees v Dublin. Now can we go back to the main point of Aidan O'Shea going missing because he is a poor player or he is double marked on a team unable to get decent ball into him.

Done

I think they struggle to get good ball in and to support him, too easy to predict what he's going to do with it.

Main thing with AOS is that teams can afford to double up on him and do so because unfortunately lads like Doherty and Mclouglin don't contribute enough to register enough of a threat, good tacklers but not great attacking instinct.

I thought AOS was excellent against Donegal.

I think he gets poor ball into him.

When he got the ball against Dublin his only option is to barge in with it. He'll get frees and look hard done by sometimes but refs dont like lads dropping the head and pushing on either.
If he'd a man to break it to he'd have three options, head for goal break to space or break to a team mate. But with nothing but defenders between him and his teammates he has only one option

I think he could do anything Donaghy can do, and he is a better goal scorer, but he was not supported against Dublin.

He also only seems to have 55 minutes in him for some reason.

With Mayos great midfield options, better use needs to be made of him.

He's a player you'd go to a match to watch on his own.

As much as I like C O' Conner he is needs to improve his support play, imagine McBrearty playing off AOS.

Figsy32

Stoner wrote: »

Done

I think they struggle to get good ball in and to support him, too easy to predict what he's going to do with it.

Main thing with AOS is that teams can afford to double up on him and do so because unfortunately lads like Doherty and Mclouglin don't contribute enough to register enough of a threat, good tacklers but not great attacking instinct.

I thought AOS was excellent against Donegal.

I think he gets poor ball into him.

When he got the ball against Dublin his only option is to barge in with it. He'll get frees and look hard done by sometimes but refs dont like lads dropping the head and pushing on either.
If he'd a man to break it to he'd have three options, head for goal break to space or break to a team mate. But with nothing but defenders between him and his teammates he has only one option

I think he could do anything Donaghy can do, and he is a better goal scorer, but he was not supported against Dublin.

He also only seems to have 55 minutes in him for some reason.

With Mayos great midfield options, better use needs to be made of him.

He's a player you'd go to a match to watch on his own.

As much as I like C O' Conner he is needs to improve his support play, imagine McBrearty playing off AOS.

Great post. And I think you capture the reason why Dublin were able to shackle O'Shea. They knew they could afford to put 2/3 men on him because the other Mayo forwards didn't carry much of a threat. Teams cannot afford to do that to Brogan because if you focus on one then Connolly/Andrews/7 or 8 others will burn you.