Clare v Cork take 3, Munster semi final - Mod Warning Post #39

Amprodude

niallo27 wrote: »

Does anyone remember the ref picking the ball up to bring it 13 metres forward and he ran a good 30 metres with it. What was with only two minutes injury time. Should we just ignore his performance and blame Davy.

Christ niallo ...talk about having sour grapes. Cork blew Clare off the field this time around like what Clare did to Cork last year in the final. No excuses Clare were away off the pace and no where good enough. Stop going on a decision that didn't have any affect on the outcome.

djPSB

keeponhurling wrote: »

That's very true,
A lot of Clare's scores last year came from one of the midfielders or even half backs driving through, drawing the tackle and hand passing to a man in space.
Very little of that and it's credit to the Cork half forwards and midfield.

It's a small thing but none of the half back line scored. Their job isn't to score as such, but on other days they chip in with a few points.

It was largely high balls in top of Duggan, with mixed success

Croke Park suits Clare's style more than Thurles.

More space to hurl and pick out passes.

Fireball07

djPSB wrote: »

Croke Park suits Clare's style more than Thurles.

More space to hurl and pick out passes.

Is Thurles not bigger than Croker?

marco_polo

Fireball07 wrote: »

Is Thurles not bigger than Croker?

I think its a good few meters narrower but near maximum allowed length, in any case whether it suits us a bit better or not, we won't be seeing the inside of it this year without some major improvements in the interim

zetecescort

I'd hope they are starting to embarrass Clare people now. Unbelievably bad losers

Banner chief calls for full investigation - Hoganstand.com http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=218535

Santa Cruz

zetecescort wrote: »

I'd hope they are starting to embarrass Clare people now. Unbelievably bad losers

Banner chief calls for full investigation - Hoganstand.com http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=218535

Clare won a lot of friends with their great performances last year in the final and final replay. Cork made an immense contribution to both games also and readily acknowledged Clare as the better team.
The behaviour of Clare officials since last Sunday is despicable and typical of the spiteful behaviour of them in the 90s. If they think that they can intimidate officials in future games by these antics they are mistaken. Why can't they take their beating and try and do a repeat of last year. Maybe Fitzgerald and co should have a look at their own performance last Sunday. That game was lost on the sideline. I don't hear any of the Calre players whinging. Did Fitzgerald think JBM and co. wouldn't learn a lesson of what went wrong for them last September?

lukin

Just a question for Clare supporters; are ye embarrassed by Davy's constant whinging and generally being such a bad loser? I know I would be if I was from Clare.

Mal-Adjusted

lukin wrote: »

Just a question for Clare supporters; are ye embarrassed by Davy's constant whinging and generally being such a bad loser? I know I would be if I was from Clare.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Calling for an investigation is pretty pathetic and suggests we may need a clearout at county board level. Cork were the better team. the fans see that, the players probably do too, why don't management?

Amprodude

lukin wrote: »

Just a question for Clare supporters; are ye embarrassed by Davy's constant whinging and generally being such a bad loser? I know I would be if I was from Clare.

Complaining is a sign of a loser and i reckon Davy knows its all over for him and Clare this year. Tough draw for them now someone like Tipp and they will be out for sure.

donnem33

Amprodude wrote: »

Complaining is a sign of a loser and i reckon Davy knows its all over for him and Clare this year. Tough draw for them now someone like Tipp and they will be out for sure.

Avoid the losers of Galway and Kilkenny and they would not fear any of the teams in the draw. Perhaps Wexford would give them a bit of trouble but i would still expect both to beat them.

lukin

It's like history repeating itself. The 95-97 Clare team were not very popular either.

zetecescort

lukin wrote: »

It's like history repeating itself. The 95-97 Clare team were not very popular either.

Not helped by their managers antics either.

I don't know how much of a siege mentality they think they need because Clare are well able to beat anyone. How many times can players be told that it's "them against us" before it start losing its effect?

savannahkat

Unbelievable antics by Davy and his Chairman. Sad for the game when management descend to petulance to explain a loss rather than face the truth.

Zardoz

marco_polo wrote: »

I think its a good few meters narrower but near maximum allowed length, in any case whether it suits us a bit better or not, we won't be seeing the inside of it this year without some major improvements in the interim

Thurles is supposedly 6 yards narrower but 1 yard longer .
The playing surface there is lovely though ,really lush grass.

niallo27

Why not talk about the ref though. Cork players takes out his own man. He lies on the ground for 4 minutes. Ref gives free out, books clare player and plays two minutes injury time.

magentis

niallo27 wrote: »

Why not talk about the ref though. Cork players takes out his own man. He lies on the ground for 4 minutes. Ref gives free out, books clare player and plays two minutes injury time.

Do you honestly think the ref made that much of a difference?
Cork blew Clare away the final score line flattered Clare.
There should have been 10 or 12 points between them,Cork were pulling up towards the end,what could Clare have done with another 2 minutes.

Gary Neville

niallo27 wrote: »

Why not talk about the ref though. Cork players takes out his own man. He lies on the ground for 4 minutes. Ref gives free out, books clare player and plays two minutes injury time.

Now that you mention it - Ellis ws getting treatment for a long time. Was it 4 mins ?

If he gave a free out and a booking for that, then that's crazy stuff, alright.

sasol

magentis wrote: »

Do you honestly think the ref made that much of a difference?
Cork blew Clare away the final score line flattered Clare.
There should have been 10 or 12 points between them,Cork were pulling up towards the end,what could Clare have done with another 2 minutes.

There is no doubting that Cork played far better than Clare. Cork also got their match ups right, and were far hungrier.

But, the ref did have a massive bearing on the game. Whether or not Clare would have won with a fair ref is a matter of opinion and speculation - it is probable that they would not, but if Clare had walked out of Semple Stadium with noboody but themselves to blame, it would be far easier to stomach.

James McGrath had a horrible day - not just the free's he missed, but the utter inconsistency of his decisions. A Clare player charges and its a free to Cork. A Cork player charges and it still is a free to Cork. A Clare player lies on the ball and it is a free to Cork. A Cork player lies on the ball and it is still a free to Cork. Conor McGrath fouled and caught in a headlock - he is penalised for overcarrying. I won't go into other decisions but you get the picture.

There are a lot of people here firing abuse at davy on his sideline behaviour. I just wish those people would be impartial and also comment on the unacceptable behaviour of Kieran Kingston for the entire game.

Figsy32

I think in the Ellis collision the booking was for Duggan's reaction to the stoppage rather than the incident itself.

I can only assume it was a free because Cork had possession when the play was stopped. If they did (I can't honestly remember whether they had or not) than an indirect free to Cork was the correct decision.

If it took 4 minutes than it should have been added, fair enough.

Again, nobody, including Cork fans are saying the McGrath did well. But to say It had a deciding influence on the winning and losing of the game is crazy.

The Clare management comments come across as petty.

shamco

Figsy32 wrote: »

I think in the Ellis collision the booking was for Duggan's reaction to the stoppage rather than the incident itself.

I can only assume it was a free because Cork had possession when the play was stopped. If they did (I can't honestly remember whether they had or not) than an indirect free to Cork was the correct decision.

If it took 4 minutes than it should have been added, fair enough.

Again, nobody, including Cork fans are saying the McGrath did well. But to say It had a deciding influence on the winning and losing of the game is crazy.

The Clare management comments come across as petty.

I don't think anyone from Clare would deny that Cork were the better team on the day but by Jaysus they got some help from the ref.

savannahkat

niallo27 wrote: »

Why not talk about the ref though. Cork players takes out his own man. He lies on the ground for 4 minutes. Ref gives free out, books clare player and plays two minutes injury time.

It comes with the territory of being champions. Look back to last year Kilkenny V Waterfordford and Kilkenny V Cork. You have to be a fair bit better than the opposition when you are champions because all the 50/50 and some of the 40/60 will go against you. It's life as champions.

zetecescort

niallo27 wrote: »

Why not talk about the ref though. Cork players takes out his own man. He lies on the ground for 4 minutes. Ref gives free out, books clare player and plays two minutes injury time.

Fine if Davy wants to talk about the ref or to the ref, then why doesn't he? It's all this b.s. About some big conspiracy to have Clare beaten is what annoys me and probably most neutrals.

Clare have an exceptionally talented group of young players and they hardly need all this going on around them. They are still defending AI champions and will have a big say in the outcome this year.

Fireball07

Presumably Duggan's yellow was for dissent, although I'm not sure you can give a free for that... surely a throw-in?

citykat

Are there any spare invitations left over to this pity party Clare are organising? What do Clare CB and Team Management really think the GAA are going to do? To do anything more than nothing would create a precedent for all future teams with a gripe. As a neutral I thought McGrath got most of the calls correct. He may have missed a few on both sides but he’s only human. Clare conceded those frees because they crossed the line between tackling/fouling. Instead of howling at the ref, Davy and his team should have got the message out to his players to stop fouling.

When I hear Davy murmuring about things he can’t talk about I seriously question his sanity let alone his intelligence. He’s already regularly ridiculed for his demeanour and behaviour. If he keeps it up he’s going to drag his team and county down with him.

Figsy32

Fireball07 wrote: »

Presumably Duggan's yellow was for dissent, although I'm not sure you can give a free for that... surely a throw-in?

Read my previous post.. Cork must have had the ball when the referee stopped the game. They were given an indirect free because of the stoppage. That rule was introduced 2 maybe 3 years ago at this stage!

The White Feather

I like Davy Fitz but his post match interviews are either one or the other

If Clare lose, he looks like he is sulking and says he wont discuss the problems he had ( usually with the Ref) but more or less says what the problems he had, hints at a conspiracy and then wont discuss it further!

If Clare won , then he says that the teams character was called into question (by who I will never know!) but he never doubted them as they have it in spades and that they are a great bunch of lads to work with!

Fireball07

Figsy32 wrote: »

Read my previous post.. Cork must have had the ball when the referee stopped the game. They were given an indirect free because of the stoppage. That rule was introduced 2 maybe 3 years ago at this stage!

Oh yeah, that's fair enough.

I suppose Clare would feel slightly aggrieved, as the fact that the two Cork lads took each other out meant there was a good chance of turning the ball over.

RGS

Simple rule change was implemented a few years ago.If the ref blew for an injury an indirect free was awarded to the team with the ball. If no team had possession then it was a throw in.

In the game Ellis caught the ball and collided with Walsh, ref blew for the injury, indirect free to cork. Correct decision.

dirkmeister

Clare County Board and Davy Fitzgerald are coming out of this looking fairly pathetic.

Even though the free for the first goal was fairly soft, if you are behind the corner forward, nudge him and he goes over then it's always going to be a free. The corner back has only himself to blame.

Christ on a bike, enquiries...mad stuff altogether.

niallo27

RGS wrote: »

Simple rule change was implemented a few years ago.If the ref blew for an injury an indirect free was awarded to the team with the ball. If no team had possession then it was a throw in.

In the game Ellis caught the ball and collided with Walsh, ref blew for the injury, indirect free to cork. Correct decision.

First time I have seen it. Seems like a crazy rule. Why not a throw ball.

Figsy32

niallo27 wrote: »

First time I have seen it. Seems like a crazy rule. Why not a throw ball.

Because that would be unfair to a team that had he ball before the play was stopped.

Gary Neville

Clare are the envy of every other county with the work and success at underage. They look odds on to claim a 4th U21 title in 6 years.

However, they are definately in danger of getting the label of Sore Losers. It looks as if there is a whinge after every game they fail to win. Davy Fitz is a master whinger - he even complained that Cork were repeatedly brought back into the drawn AI final (obviously by bad reffing decisions) - he seems to think that he can complain and make inuendo and then balance this by saying that he's not going to talk about it. That carry-on is getting a bit tiresome.

The call by the CB Chairman for GAA Authorities to review the game is 'off the wall' and unless it's retracted, then it will be seen as the Official Clare View. I'd expect most IC refs to be very annoyed at this and it remains to be seen whether CP will respond. It's notable that the Chairman also used the Davy Tactic by saying he wasn't 'pointing the finger at anyone'.

It's very hard for Management and Officials to be objective about match officiating and there are issues in most games but if every county behaved like Clare then no one would want to be an IC Ref. They really must have a hard look at themselves and cop themselves on or CP will have to take action. This can't continue IMO.

zetecescort

savannahkat wrote: »

It comes with the territory of being champions. Look back to last year Kilkenny V Waterfordford and Kilkenny V Cork. You have to be a fair bit better than the opposition when you are champions because all the 50/50 and some of the 40/60 will go against you. It's life as champions.

So you don't get frees when you are a "little fish" and you don't get them when you are champions?

Maybe Davy is right, maybe somebody is out to get him?

shamco

Gary Neville wrote: »

Clare are the envy of every other county with the work and success at underage. They look odds on to claim a 4th U21 title in 6 years.

However, they are definately in danger of getting the label of Sore Losers. It looks as if there is a whinge after every game they fail to win. Davy Fitz is a master whinger - he even complained that Cork were repeatedly brought back into the drawn AI final (obviously by bad reffing decisions) - he seems to think that he can complain and make inuendo and then balance this by saying that he's not going to talk about it. That carry-on is getting a bit tiresome.

The call by the CB Chairman for GAA Authorities to review the game is 'off the wall' and unless it's retracted, then it will be seen as the Official Clare View. I'd expect most IC refs to be very annoyed at this and it remains to be seen whether CP will respond. It's notable that the Chairman also used the Davy Tactic by saying he wasn't 'pointing the finger at anyone'.

It's very hard for Management and Officials to be objective about match officiating and there are issues in most games but if every county behaved like Clare then no one would want to be an IC Ref. They really must have a hard look at themselves and cop themselves on or CP will have to take action. This can't continue IMO.

Cork and Kilkenny moaned about refereering decisions all of last summer so it is not just confined to Clare. The standard of refs is brutal at the moment and McGrath is the worst. He is like the cock that thinks the sun comes up to hear him crow. The matches are not about him.

niallo27

Figsy32 wrote: »

Because that would be unfair to a team that had he ball before the play was stopped.

The play was stopped because two players ran into each other. It was the cork players that ****ed up but yet the opposing team is penalised.

Gary Neville

shamco wrote: »

Cork and Kilkenny moaned about refereering decisions all of last summer so it is not just confined to Clare. The standard of refs is brutal at the moment and McGrath is the worst. He is like the cock that thinks the sun comes up to hear him crow. The matches are not about him.

I don't think McGrath is any worse than others, John Ryan, for example - they are not being helped with all the carry-on wrt penalties etc.

Cork and KK were unhappy about 2 red cards incidents and both were subsequently rescinded so perhaps they were vindicated. I think it's disengenuous to compare Davy Fitz/Clare Chairman to JBM & Cody and their respective chairmen. Do you think Clare's behaviour is acceptable ?

slingerz

sasol wrote: »

There is no doubting that Cork played far better than Clare. Cork also got their match ups right, and were far hungrier.

But, the ref did have a massive bearing on the game. Whether or not Clare would have won with a fair ref is a matter of opinion and speculation - it is probable that they would not, but if Clare had walked out of Semple Stadium with noboody but themselves to blame, it would be far easier to stomach.

James McGrath had a horrible day - not just the free's he missed, but the utter inconsistency of his decisions. A Clare player charges and its a free to Cork. A Cork player charges and it still is a free to Cork. A Clare player lies on the ball and it is a free to Cork. A Cork player lies on the ball and it is still a free to Cork. Conor McGrath fouled and caught in a headlock - he is penalised for overcarrying. I won't go into other decisions but you get the picture.

There are a lot of people here firing abuse at davy on his sideline behaviour. I just wish those people would be impartial and also comment on the unacceptable behaviour of Kieran Kingston for the entire game.

Can you elaborate on this piece as its the first I've heard of anything regarding the behaviour of Kieran Kingston and I wasnt at the game to witness it first hand?

shamco

Gary Neville wrote: »

I don't think McGrath is any worse than others, John Ryan, for example - they are not being helped with all the carry-on wrt penalties etc.

Cork and KK were unhappy about 2 red cards incidents and both were subsequently rescinded so perhaps they were vindicated. I think it's disengenuous to compare Davy Fitz/Clare Chairman to JBM & Cody and their respective chairmen. Do you think Clare's behaviour is acceptable ?

They were rescinded because they were Cork and KK. Dublin also got a harsh sending off which wasn't rescinded. I don't agree with the stance taken by the chairman of the county board but that is three times in a row that McGrath has blackguarded Clare and Davy is quite entitled to voice his opinions about such. Did you see the reactions of Kieran Kingston on the sideline last Sunday and Cody is no shrinking violet with referees either. Anyway cork were deserving winners and it's time for Clare to move on.

webels

niallo27 wrote: »

The play was stopped because two players ran into each other. It was the cork players that ****ed up but yet the opposing team is penalised.

Its the rule as it currently exists, when a player gets injured (potential head injury usually), ref stops the game for H&S reasons, and their teammate is in possession they maintain possession with an indirect free. Nothing to do with players who “****ed up”, they hardly intentionally ran into each other.

Gary Neville

shamco wrote: »

They were rescinded because they were Cork and KK. Dublin also got a harsh sending off which wasn't rescinded. I don't agree with the stance taken by the chairman of the county board but that is three times in a row that McGrath has blackguarded Clare and Davy is quite entitled to voice his opinions about such. Did you see the reactions of Kieran Kingston on the sideline last Sunday and Cody is no shrinking violet with referees either. Anyway cork were deserving winners and it's time for Clare to move on.

I didn't notice Kingston but you could have a point there. I thought that the pitch incursions by the Clare Lad in the AI were a bit much and also Dan Shanahan's antics were OTT also. The refs already have too much to look after, but it's an area that needs attention.

I'd also agree with you that the status of the counties and players might have impacted on the rescissions.

I'd strongly disagree about manager's being entitled to publically criticise refs. IMO that shouldn't be acceptable.

Clare will move on but the statements are on record and if this is allowed stand then refs may be reluctant to award frees against Clare and let themselves open to public criticism and accusation - possibly unjustified. It looks like a concerted attempt to intimidate and bully officials. doesn't it ?

hurling_lad

zetecescort wrote: »

So you don't get frees when you are a "little fish" and you don't get them when you are champions?

Maybe Davy is right, maybe somebody is out to get him?

The Illuminati must have thought that they had their work done back in '98 when they orchestrated the whole Colin Lynch thing and may have grown complacent in recent years as they saw Clare regularly getting beaten in Munster and then eliminated in the back door.

They were obviously caught on the hop with Clare's run to the AI through the back-door last year but have now responded with the James McGrath performance on Sunday.

I wonder what they will come up with next.

Hidalgo

lukin wrote: »

Just a question for Clare supporters; are ye embarrassed by Davy's constant whinging and generally being such a bad loser? I know I would be if I was from Clare.

Embarassed, no
Surprised, no.
That's just the way he is, a bad loser. Nothing wrong with being hurt when you lose, its supposed to.

About the only pity of winning last yr was that he was manager as opposed to someone like Daly or Cyril Lyons.

Davy is a me feiner, first and foremost. When his team wins its because he did this or that at or said something, but when they lose its never his fault

keeponhurling

Hidalgo wrote: »

Davy is a me feiner, first and foremost. When his team wins its because he did this or that at or said something, but when they lose its never his fault

That's quite a statement, have you any previous examples ?
What about when he lost in Munster in the last 2 years?

Even last Sunday he said that cork deserved to win, that cork won midfield and built off that, and that the ref made a series of. strange decisions that favoured Cork.
All seems correct to me

shamco

keeponhurling wrote: »

That's quite a statement, have you any previous examples ?
What about when he lost in Munster in the last 2 years?

Even last Sunday he said that cork deserved to win, that cork won midfield and built off that, and that the ref made a series of. strange decisions that favoured Cork.
All seems correct to me

Clare have been the victims of some of the most outrageous refereeing/ committee rooms decisions over the years. Think 1998 we are in an all AI final but hey no we're not it's a replay rather than just play the 3min that still remained in the match. We score a point in the last minute of an U21 final in Ennis a few years ago. Wait a minute that's not a point the goalkeeper stepped outside the square ( which if you watch closely every goalkeeper does) a minute ago a 65 to Tipp. Last year in both AI's the refs rode us and the same thing last Sunday. It's time someone shouted stop.

Figsy32

shamco wrote: »

Clare have been the victims of some of the most outrageous refereeing/ committee rooms decisions over the years. Think 1998 we are in an all AI final but hey no we're not it's a replay rather than just play the 3min that still remained in the match. We score a point in the last minute of an U21 final in Ennis a few years ago. Wait a minute that's not a point the goalkeeper stepped outside the square ( which if you watch closely every goalkeeper does) a minute ago a 65 to Tipp. Last year in both AI's the refs rode us and the same thing last Sunday. It's time someone shouted stop.

That's absolute rubbish.

I'm sure any team can name 3 incidents over a 16 year period where they've gotten poor decisions.

In that 21 game, the keeper was miles out of the square when he pucked it. If you want to go by the 'everybody hits it from outside a little bit' rule, then Anthony Nash should still be allowed hit his frees as 'everybody hits them past the 21'. The keeper, like Nash, took the discretion too far. It's happened to Donal Og too in the past as well.

And to say ye 'were rode' last year is a bit much, especially when the referee was kind enough to give Donhnall O'Donavon an extra 40 seconds to get an equilizer the first day out. If there really was an agenda against Clare that would never have happened. I guess that doesn't fit Clare's victim narrative though?

Clare were comprehensively beaten the last day. Was the referee fantastic? No. Was he the reason Cork won? Not by a long shot. Davy and (some) Clare fans should learn to lose with a bit of grace.

shamco

Figsy32 wrote: »

That's absolute rubbish.

I'm sure any team can name 3 incidents over a 16 year period where they've gotten poor decisions.

In that 21 game, the keeper was miles out of the square when he pucked it. If you want to go by the 'everybody hits it from outside a little bit' rule, then Anthony Nash should still be allowed hit his frees as 'everybody hits them past the 21'. The keeper, like Nash, took the discretion too far. It's happened to Donal Og too in the past as well.

And to say ye 'were rode' last year is a bit much, especially when the referee was kind enough to give Donhnall O'Donavon an extra 40 seconds to get an equilizer the first day out. If there really was an agenda against Clare that would never have happened. I guess that doesn't fit Clare's victim narrative though?

Clare were comprehensively beaten the last day. Was the referee fantastic? No. Was he the reason Cork won? Not by a long shot. Davy and (some) Clare fans should learn to lose with a bit of grace.

Well I can't seem to remember as many incidents with other teams maybe you can enlighten me

Figsy32

My point was that two of the three incidents weren't unfair. (I'm too young to give a definite opinion on 1998.)

Teams are always going to get bad decisions. That doesn't mean there's 'dark forces' like Davy keeps mentioning when he loses.

shamco

Figsy32 wrote: »

My point was that two of the three incidents weren't unfair. (I'm too young to give a definite opinion on 1998.)

Teams are always going to get bad decisions. That doesn't mean there's 'dark forces' like Davy keeps mentioning when he loses.

I was at the U21 match and reviewed it afterwards on TV and Tuohy was not yards outside the square as you say. It was marginal if at all. Cork deserved to win on Sun btw so no sour grapes here

Santa Cruz

One thing I have noticed over the years is that if a county starts getting obsessed by some injustice, imaginary or otherwise, they quickly lose focus on the job in hand and then fall by the wayside. Remember the Keady affair in Galway.
Clare can continue whining and being bad losers or they can get on with it and try to make a success of the season. Either way no one else really cares

keeponhurling

shamco wrote: »

I was at the U21 match and reviewed it afterwards on TV and Tuohy was not yards outside the square as you say. It was marginal if at all. Cork deserved to win on Sun btw so no sour grapes here

He had one foot in the square and one foot out. Not a foul.
Cusack park is quite tight behind the goals and he was also blocked off by the umpire.

Icing on the cake was Tipp taking the 65 from well within the 65 line.

Anybody who says that game was not a huge injustice, it's hard to take seriously.

That it was an injustice was never even the question, it was more about two schools of thought
- in the interests of fair play Tipp should offer a replay, it's a hollow victory etc., or
- sure we can't go replaying every match that has bad decisions, we'd need to review the full match again etc.