Industrial Electrical - Registered Contractor

Seanieke

Just a quick one.. can anyone show me where it says you have to be a Registered Contractor to get the ESB to connect a Insustrial 3 Phase Supply.

Funny as it sounds I cant find it written anywhere and was saying it to one of the lads from Lepardstown today.

Any documentation I can find all relates to Domestic. Such as here All Domestic Certs

Thanks

2011

My understanding is that the new legislation only applies to domestic installations at the moment. That is because this is where most of the breaches of regulations occurred.

.G.

2011 wrote: »

My understanding is that the new legislation only applies to domestic installations at the moment. That is because this is where most of the nixers occured.

Fixed that for you:D

Seanieke

So if I want the ESB to connect a 3 Phase meter..... I don't legally have to be registered?

But if I want a Single Phase Supply I have to jump through the hoops??

beanie10

To get ESB to connect you will need a cert. Without being registered you will not be able to buy a book of certs. Unless to pay for RECI or ECCSA to test the installation for you, but I am nearly sure they will not test industrial installations.
If you are not a REC what way does insurance work for the installation?

2011

superg wrote: »

Fixed that for you:D

Nobody denies that there have been an incredible amount of nixers carried out over the years.

However if you do not recognise that compliance standards with the ETCI National Rules for Electrical Installations has been severalty "lacking" you are deluding yourself.

Seanieke wrote: »

So if I want the ESB to connect a 3 Phase meter..... I don't legally have to be registered?

But if I want a Single Phase Supply I have to jump through the hoops??

Assuming that you are not a registered electrical contractor:
Why don't you try to get a new 3 phase supply installed and let us know how you get on?

If you do mange it I will bet that the installation will be fully compliant with the regulations.

Seanieke

I got it done today. New 4x16 SWA terminated into 3 Phase meter by ESB & sealed. The ESB concluded that it doesn't state I have to be registered... I was just asking if someone had spotted otherwise elsewhere.

beanie10

Did you not have to give a cert?

Seanieke

No, just €180 on bill for the associated MPRN

2011

Well that is a new one.
I did it in the past, I had a new connection installed by the ESB despite the fact that I was not a registered electrical contractor (at the time).
However even then (about 1995) I had to have a completion certificate.
It would seem incredible to me that they would have removed the requirement for a completion certificate.
This is completely different from being a REC.

If true it sounds like a clerical error.

beanie10

So let me get this right? You got a new 3 phase supply installed without a cert and for just a couple of hundred €???

Seanieke

Not a new 3 Phase Supply, it was removal of ESB Seal, removal of old cable from meter, termination of new tails and new ESB Seal... €180 is a flat rate for that job. As for Cert, you will see it is listed under domestic

All I am really stating is it's a big loophole. I'm with the ECSSA so all this isn't about Certs, the books are in the office.

2011

Back in the day when I was a REC I could not get the ESB to do anything unless I had a certificate for it.
That was long before the recent legislation was even thought of.

This story sounds a tad suspect to me.

beanie10

Oh right so basically you upgraded the tails?
Sounds right, there is no need for a cert in this circumstance as installation already existed.

2011

Seanieke wrote: »

Not a new 3 Phase Supply, it was removal of ESB Seal, removal of old cable from meter, termination of new tails and new ESB Seal... €180 is a flat rate for that job

So as you did not provide a completion certificate the ESB have had to taken responsibility for your work?

That was very nice of them (and completely out of character) to stick their neck out like that.

You could have connected phases together for all they would have known.

Seanieke

I have the seal & signature, so yeah I guess so!

beanie10

The ESB temporarily disconnected supply so upgrade works can be carried out. As long as installation is not disconnected for more than 6 months ESB will reconnect without a cert.

2011

Seanieke wrote: »

I have the seal & signature, so yeah I guess so!

Ok I see this bit now:

Seanieke wrote: »

I'm with the ECSSA so all this isn't about Certs, the books are in the office.

As a you are REC and you were just changing the tails it is believable.
From your earlier posts I assumed you were not a REC (see post #6) .

What is the "loop hole" that you refer to?

.G.

2011 wrote: »

Nobody denies that there have been an incredible amount of nixers carried out over the years.

However if you do not recognise that compliance standards with the ETCI National Rules for Electrical Installations has been severalty "lacking" you are deluding yourself.

It was just a joke but since you commented,you're deluding yourself if you think this new legislation will do anything to improve compliance with the wiring regs since REC's work is self certified. But you knew that already.

Seanieke

2011 wrote: »

What is the "loop hole" that you refer to?

Loop Hole may not have been the right words, But it's strange they didn't seek a cert. IMO there's alot more to go wrong with 3 phase, and I've always been asked for a Cert on single phase domestic

2011

superg wrote: »

It was just a joke but since you commented,you're deluding yourself if you think this new legislation will do anything to improve compliance with the wiring regs since REC's work is self certified. But you knew that already.

I don't think that it will solve the issues with non-compliance of regulations overnight.

However I do think it will help for the following reasons:

1) Due to the fact that the customer can face prosecution as well as the person carrying out the work some people will be deterred from employing non-RECs.

2) The publicity surrounding this has encouraged many not to use those that are not qualified electricians to do electrical work in their homes. Whatever chance there is of an electrician being an REC there is no chance of a painter / plumber / carpenter being one

3) In the past inspectors from RECI could (and did) "play God" by deciding to turn a blind eye to non-compliance with regulations. If they try this now they can be taken to task by CER. I think that this will make inspectors enforce the rules more stringently now that there is a increased likelihood of consequences.

4) There is now a procedure to report those that are not registered.

5) There have been some prosecutions already. This has scared a lot of people.

6) Plenty of RECs are making a living from testing electrical installations at the moment especially homes that form part of the rental market. This highlights non-compliance with the regulations to landlords. Landlords want insured RECs that issue receipts to carry out electrical work on their properties.

7) There is a lot of support from electricians that work for domestic RECs. Why? Because the nixer industry (frequently the unemployed) has contributed to a downward pressure on their wages and RECs going out of business.

No delusion there

2011

Seanieke wrote: »

Loop Hole may not have been the right words, But it's strange they didn't seek a cert. IMO there's alot more to go wrong with 3 phase, and I've always been asked for a Cert on single phase domestic

I think that it was an oversight.
Technically you should have carried out an insulation resistance test and earth fault loop impedance test and documented same.

In theory the cable could have a short / insulation resistance issue due to a manufacturing problem or a nail through the cable.

.G.

2011 wrote: »

I don't think that it will solve the issues with non-compliance of regulations overnight.

However I do think it will help for the following reasons:

1) Due to the fact that the customer can face prosecution as well as the person carrying out the work some people will be deterred from employing non-RECs.

2) The publicity surrounding this has encouraged many not to use those that are not qualified electricians to do electrical work in their homes. Whatever chance there is of an electrician being an REC there is no chance of a painter / plumber / carpenter being one

3) In the past inspectors from RECI could (and did) "play God" by deciding to turn a blind eye to non-compliance with regulations. If they try this now they can be taken to task by CER. I think that this will make inspectors enforce the rules more stringently now that there is a increased likelihood of consequences.

4) There is now a procedure to repot those that are not registered.

5) There have been some prosecutions already. This has scared a lot of people.

6) Plenty of RECs are making a living from testing electrical installations at the moment especially homes that form part of the rental market. This highlights non-compliance with the regulations to landlords. Landlords want insured RECs that issue receipts to carry out electrical work on their properties.

7) There is a lot of support from electricians that work for domestic RECs. Why? Because the nixer industry (frequently the unemployed) has contributed to a downward pressure on their wages and RECs going out of business.

No delusion there

Most of your points relate to non RECs, mine was regarding RECs. Being registered does not automatically equal being good at your job. As long as they are self certifying standards will continue to crawl upwards. They also get to hand pick the one job a year their inspector can inspect, no random inspections like there should be either . It is good that people can report bad workmanship, how often it will happen and how quickly that will increase standards is anyone's guess. Poor workmanship is not automatically dangerous workmanship. I agree with point 6 as alot of our work recently has been this sort of stuff. The legislation is what it is but if it was designed to improve standards I don't believe it will do it anywhere near as effectively as measures I've mentioned. It will however keep work away from the nixer market which I believe was it's primary focus.

No delusion here either, just a different opinion

2011

superg wrote: »

Most of your points relate to non RECs

.....because this is precisely who the this legislation is aimed at.

Being registered does not automatically equal being good at your job.

Granted, but coming under more scrutiny and the prospect of more serious consequences for ignoring regulations tends to focus the mind

As long as they are self certifying standards will continue to crawl upwards.

I agree, I have never been a fan of self certification.
But it is better than no certification and as you recognise the standard are going in the right direction (albeit too slowly).

They also get to hand pick the one job a year their inspector can inspect, no random inspections like there should be either

Again I agree, but at least we have a more educated public, who are more likely to lodge a complaint when they suspect that work is not up to scratch. In addition the inspectors are being forced to be more diligent.

No delusion here either, just a different opinion

Not all of it is that different.

tomdempsey200

sounds like an oversight

I'd be very surprised under normal circumstances you can upgrade and reconnect tails without a cert

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

.


7) There is a lot of support from electricians that work for domestic RECs. Why? Because the nixer industry (frequently the unemployed) has contributed to a downward pressure on their wages and RECs going out of business.

Yea, but the exact same electricians will of course support it when they themselves are out if work and can't pay the bills. They are not supporting it simply because they agree with it.

No delusion there

Its purely revenue driven. Nothing to do with the most breaches of rules being in domestic. Its simply because that's where most untapped revenue potential for the state lies. It seems a house is a great source of tax these days.

They say a handyman can fit sockets etc, yet qualified electricians cant remove a DB cover. That alone tells most us its purely revenue driven, (apart from the delusional).

2011

Bruthal wrote: »

Yea, but the exact same electricians will of course support it when they themselves are out if work and can't pay the bills. They are not supporting it simply because they agree with it.

Yes this is most likely correct, but not really relevant.

As you acknowledge it has a level of support from some electricians within the industry which is my point.
This results in increased reporting of non-RECs and a heightened level of awareness of the law regarding this in the general public which in turn exerts more pressure on RECs to produce quality work.

Its purely revenue driven. Nothing to do with the most breaches of rules being in domestic.

Many take this view.
Whether this is the primary aim of the legislation and breaches or the rules are a very poor second could be argued until the cows come home and either way is not relevant (in terms of compliance of ET101).
However even if it is only a "side effect" of legislation that is designed purely to generate more revenue for the government to waste it has to help with the enforcement of rules to some extent.

They say a handyman can fit sockets etc, yet qualified electricians cant remove a DB cover.

Only qualified electricians can remove the cover they just need to have insurance, calibrated test equipment, to document their work, certify it, be subjected to inspections and be registered. RECs also need to have a qualified tester as part of the team. Whereas those that are not qualified electricians can't even get registered so they can never legally work on a distribution board. Remember for many people their house is the largest single investment that they will ever make.
Is it not reasonable that there should be some sort of law preventing electricians that have no insurance, or test equipment, etc. to work on it?

Insurance is key nowadays. Just because someone is an REC does not mean that the work that they carry out is done to a reasonable standard, but it does mean that the work is insured, which to many is far more important. There is also a body to report the REC to (ECSSA or RECI) and a body to report an inspector to (CER). Personally I think that this is a good thing.

Insurance companies are driving testing and recertification of existing premises. This testing is frequently carried out by RECs that did not wire the installation in the first place, so it is their interest to find issues. This new legislation means that many of the issues found during testing can only be resolved by an REC. How does this not help push standards up?

tomdempsey200

do you have to be a spark now to get registered?

they've prob tightened it up

back in the day ECSSA had many handymen and plumbers as members

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

Only qualified electricians can remove the cover they just need to have insurance, calibrated test equipment, to document their work, certify it, be subjected to inspections and be registered.

A child can remove a cover so, going by that reasoning, with reference to my saying a qualified electrician can't remove a dB cover. I think you understand fully what I meant.

2011

Bruthal wrote: »

A child can remove a cover so, going by that reasoning

No, because a child can not even register as an apprentice never mind be a qualified electrician and an REC.

with reference to my saying a qualified electrician can't remove a dB cover. I think you understand fully what I meant.

Yes, and I think you know what I mean about the importance of insurance.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

No, because a child can not even register as an apprentice never mind be a qualified electrician and an REC.


Yes, and I think you know what I mean about the importance of insurance.

Does the handyman need insurance to swap a socket?

Also, nothing about Insurance was referred to by myself.

Anyway, I've had enough of this stuff. I post what I think, with reference to real life, not what boards status or other posters expect. Maybe you do yourself (post what you think). But i doubt you will call a rec to tighten a connection in your own DB, or family members.

Superg had the opinion that this was all targeted at domestic, because its where the untaxed work was happening. I agree with that.

Have a good day.