Dog Training South Dublin

Hi there, we've just adopted a 1.5 year old dog who is fairly well behaved but could do with some training in walking to heel and recall. The DSPCA courses over the next few weeks are booked out and the couple of others I've looked at seem to be geared towards puppies. Can anyone recommend a four (or so) week course/refresher course? Thanks!

tk123

Positive Dog Training in Sandyford are fantastic and would be worth the wait if you can hang on.

Positive Dog Training only seem to do evenings which won't work because I work in the city centre and would never be able to get home, get the dog and get there in time.

I've also tried to get in touch with WTCI (perfect location and times on Sunday mornings) but the phone number doesn't work, I've had no response to the online form I submitted and no response to a couple of e-mails I've sent.

And, as mentioned, DSPCA is booked out although I've e-mailed to pre-register for their next course, whenever that may be.

But we'd really like to have the training sooner rather than later so does anyone else have another suggestion?

Thanks!

DBB

Would you consider getting a one-to-one session at home with a trainer? It might suit your schedule better, and if you choose wisely, will probably achieve more in one session that in a series of 4 classes, depending on the problems you're having.

DBB

DBB wrote: »

Would you consider getting a one-to-one session at home with a trainer? It might suit your schedule better, and if you choose wisely, will probably achieve more in one session that in a series of 4 classes, depending on the problems you're having.

That's a great idea. There's two of us with the dog so that might be ideal for making sure we're all on the same page. Would you have a particular company/trainer in mind?

Ashbx

Deleted User wrote: »

That's a great idea. There's two of us with the dog so that might be ideal for making sure we're all on the same page. Would you have a particular company/trainer in mind?

My vet highly recommends the dog interpreter but im not sure how far she travels out. I think she is located in Dundrum/Rathfarnham area but its worth a shot.

tk123

Emmaline is brilliant - http://citizencanineireland.com/

DBB

+1 for Emmaline who'd be my first choice were it me, but Isa (The Interpeter) is good too

Rips

Tag N Rye cover south Dublin as well, highly recommended.

DBB

Rips wrote: »

Tag N Rye cover south Dublin as well, highly recommended.

I think, in this day and age, trainers should be educating themselves and getting themselves some sort of industry-recognised qualification in the field of training and behaviour. There have been so many advances made in the ethics and science behind how we train dogs that there is simply no place for trainers to rely on experience alone.... experience is all very well, but in the absence of a formal understanding of dog psychology too, all too often such trainers fall too far short of what is expected of a good, ethical dog trainer in this day and age.
Unless a trainer has a formal qualification in training, I personally would not have them anywhere near the top of my list.

Rips

I know her personally but she has qualifications with the IACE and has also been approved by the APDT...

Apart from that she is a very sympathetic trainer and promotes reward based training.

Better also then someone with all the bits of paper and no skill or experience to back it up.

She had a very unfortunate experience last year with a qualified professional con-artist. There are plenty of those about too.

DBB

Rips wrote: »

I know her personally but she has qualifications with the IACE and has also been approved by the APDT...

Do you know what being a Charter Member of the IACE means (for that is her association with them)? It was a title given to people who were members in their previous guise (Animal Care College) in the 1990s! They don't award Charter Membership to people any more since they updated themselves some years ago. In other words, being a Charter Member is rather outdated, and in any case, their other levels of membership simply require that you pay a fee... no assessment of skills required.
She parted company with the APDT UK quite a few years ago, for reasons I'm not prepared to go into here. She is not a member of APDT Ireland either.

Apart from that she is a very sympathetic trainer and promotes reward based training.

Like many trainers who are into reward-based training, it's not so much the reward based training that's important, it's how they deal with things when things don't go well that determine how "sympathetic" they actually are.
Again, I'm not a position to go into it here with this particular individual.

Better also then someone with all the bits of paper and no skill or experience to back it up.

This is quite the chestnut I see being flung about by trainers who haven't updated their skills nor education.
Firstly, it is entirely possible for people to be qualified AND experienced!
Secondly, those who have not gained a lot of experience are at least basing their techniques on sound, scientific principle, as opposed to hocus-pocus, old-fashioned, "this is the way it's always been done so don't change it, despite there being kinder or more effective" ways. I know which I'd prefer, and which I'd advise an owner to opt for, and why.
Thirdly, organisations like the APDT in the UK have seriously upgraded their assessment procedures, so that members need to demonstrate a robust knowledge AND be able to apply that knowledge. They also have to sign up to a code of conduct that binds them to ethical treatment of dogs and clients. Same goes for APDT Ireland, though they are a newer organisation and have always applied the more stringent assessment.
This doesn't necessarily mean that trainers have to have completed a formal course, but they'd want to have done substantial self-managed learning to achieve the required standard.
The APDT comes with a pretty serious amount of "external accreditation" as a world-wide organisation, with APDT Ireland having the patronage and watchful eye of APDT US and APDT UK, as well as several big-hitters in the world of dog behaviour.... between them, they ensure the standards are upheld and maintained from above.
As with any industry, practitioners who don't, or can't get themselves certified by a professional certification body need to be viewed with caution by members of the public looking to retain their services.
There'll be bad eggs in every basket, but at least there's some control over them when they're signed up to, and indeed rigorously assessed, by a relevant and reputable professional body.

Rips

Whatever, you obviously have a gripe with this individual you are not prepared to discuss. I know a huge number of people who are thrilled with her services and I have never heard anything to the contrary. I have never known her to be anything but extremely professional and empathetic and apart from anything else I would find it incredible to believe she of all people would be capable of anything other then 'sympathetic' training.

Somebody clearly has a grudge against her though, someone who saw fit to take it out on one of her pets.

Her own animals are fantastically well cared for.

I was actually hesitant to list the APDT connection, as I have met a few 'bad eggs' who are certified with them.

There are a lot of professional trainers who have qualifications and no real connection or language, no matter their experience. Similarly people who have PhD in dog behaviour and yet are not cut out to be trainers.

I was giving a personal recommendation based on my experience, you obviously have a different opinion, go right ahead.

muddypaws

Rips wrote: »

I was actually hesitant to list the APDT connection, as I have met a few 'bad eggs' who are certified with them.

I think the issue with people using the letters APDT is that the person using them may be a member of the US organisation, Association of Professional Dog Trainers, which anybody can join, with no evidence of qualifications or experience, as long as you pay your fee, and not of APDT Ireland, (Association of Pet Dog Trainers) To be a professional member of APDT Ireland you need to have fulfilled various criteria. It can be very confusing for people looking for a trainer.

DBB

Rips wrote: »

Whatever, you obviously have a gripe with this individual you are not prepared to discuss.

Not in public, no. If you can't read between the lines what I'm trying to say here, so be it.
You might have great things to say about as her personal friend. As a less biased onlooker, I'm simply saying that I don't agree with some of things she does to correct unwanted behaviours, which a good, relatively recently qualified, relatively recently certified dog trainer would not approve of either.
I'm not getting into the rest of your argument with you for various reasons, but suffice to say the fact that one minute it suited you to use the APDT to cast your friend in a professional light, the next you try to discredit the same organisation, pretty much sums it all up.
It's up to the owner to decide which they'd prefer.

Similarly people who have PhD in dog behaviour and yet are not cut out to be trainers.

Lol :-D
I know, the country's full of them, it's a bloody disgrace! :-D

Rips

DBB wrote: »

Not in public, no. If you can't read between the lines what I'm trying to say here, so be it.
You might have great things to say about as her personal friend. As a less biased onlooker, I'm simply saying that I don't agree with some of things she does to correct unwanted behaviours, which a good, relatively recently qualified, relatively recently certified dog trainer would not approve of either.
I'm not getting into the rest of your argument with you for various reasons, but suffice to say the fact that one minute it suited you to use the APDT to cast your friend in a professional light, the next you try to discredit the same organisation, pretty much sums it all up.
It's up to the owner to decide which they'd prefer.


Lol :-D
I know, the country's full of them, it's a bloody disgrace! :-D

I could say the same for you, first she didn't have formal qualifications, now she has fallen into disrepute. Make up your mind up back up your accusations if you are going to post them.

I didn't at any stage say she was a friend.

I said I know her personally and professionally as it happens, rather then from the cyber rumour mill.

I never discredited the APDT either.

As I have already said, there are plenty of accredited trainers I would not touch with a bargepole, which is why I hesitated to mention the APDT (but did all the same...)

Rips

Deleted User wrote: »

Positive Dog Training only seem to do evenings which won't work because I work in the city centre and would never be able to get home, get the dog and get there in time.

I've also tried to get in touch with WTCI (perfect location and times on Sunday mornings) but the phone number doesn't work, I've had no response to the online form I submitted and no response to a couple of e-mails I've sent.

And, as mentioned, DSPCA is booked out although I've e-mailed to pre-register for their next course, whenever that may be.

But we'd really like to have the training sooner rather than later so does anyone else have another suggestion?

Thanks!

Jackie Brown, I'm sorry your thread has disintegrated into this, I hope you find/have found someone appropriate who suits your needs.

I could have named any number of trainers, qualified or otherwise. I suggested one who I know will travel to you and do one on one sessions, or tailor a program for you. Which I thought best suited the requirements you stated.

muddypaws

Rips wrote: »

I never discredited the APDT either.

As I have already said, there are plenty of accredited trainers I would not touch with a bargepole, which is why I hesitated to mention the APDT (but did all the same...)

Sorry to push this point, but which APDT are you talking about Rips, the American one that people just pay to join, with absolutely no checking on qualifications or experience, or the Irish one, of which professional members have to be assessed and meet certain criteria?

Rips

Rips wrote: »

Jackie Brown, I'm sorry your thread has disintegrated into this, I hope you find/have found someone appropriate who suits your needs.

Thanks, not quite sure what happened there.

Anyway, I persevered with WTCI and they got back to me today with a lovely e-mail and information about their "summer project" which we'll be doing.

Also, the DSPCA have e-mailed me too and when I get back in touch with them we'll see what they can do for/with us.

Thanks again to everyone who gave suggestions, much appreciated.

Ashbx

Just on the topic of trainers being qualified...I have never heard of Tag and Rye so I cannot comment on this specific trainer.

However, I used a trainer who was recommended to me before . She was a QUALIFIED trainer for over 20 years and had a ton of experience blah blah blah.......she was hopeless! I got her for my dog's pulling on the lead. Long story short, she did not do what I would normally do when bringing my dog out and it turns out my dog (typically) was sooo well behaved and didn't pull on the lead once. She told me that I was wrong, my dog was fine, charged me €60 for 30 mins and went home! 3 years later....my dog still pulls like mad! I demanded my money back.

The point of my comment is that a person could be qualified AND have experience and still be bloody useless! I personally don't believe a dog trainer HAS to be qualified. As long as the trainer does what the dog needs it to do, then happy days!! But its all a matter of preference!

muddypaws

Ashbx wrote: »

Just on the topic of trainers being qualified...I have never heard of Tag and Rye so I cannot comment on this specific trainer.

However, I used a trainer who was recommended to me before . She was a QUALIFIED trainer for over 20 years and had a ton of experience blah blah blah.......she was hopeless! I got her for my dog's pulling on the lead. Long story short, she did not do what I would normally do when bringing my dog out and it turns out my dog (typically) was sooo well behaved and didn't pull on the lead once. She told me that I was wrong, my dog was fine, charged me €60 for 30 mins and went home! 3 years later....my dog still pulls like mad! I demanded my money back.

The point of my comment is that a person could be qualified AND have experience and still be bloody useless! I personally don't believe a dog trainer HAS to be qualified. As long as the trainer does what the dog needs it to do, then happy days!! But its all a matter of preference!

What qualifications did she have, and did you see the certification? I could say that I have a degree in canine psychology, but unless you see the cert and where its from, it could be a complete lie, or from an internet college that just issues certs.

DBB

muddypaws wrote: »

What qualifications did she have, and did you see the certification? I could say that I have a degree in canine psychology, but unless you see the cert and where its from, it could be a complete lie, or from an internet college that just issues certs.

You see, this is the problem... Although it's pretty risky for someone to claim they've a degree when they haven't due to the accountability and traceability in place for recognised 3rd level qualifications, there are dozens and dozens of trainers who claim to have some certificate or other, printed off on some unaccredited course provider's printer in their front room.
If your trainer, ashbx, was qualified for such a long time, then it's almost certain that the "qualification" was one gained from an internet course, with no actual assessment of ability on the ground, and no external accreditation nor overseer. It's only in the recent past that some courses for dog trainers have received formal support from academic accreditation bodies.
But there are dozens and dozens of online courses where people can get "qualifications" which aren't worth the paper they're written on. Just about every trainer you'll find in a Google search will claim some class of qualification. Now, whilst I know most are a pile of rubbish, because I know the industry, it is nigh-on impossible for most owners to know, because it's bewildering.
Yet the people who have spent a lot of time, sweat and money on getting themselves a recognised qualification, with all the necessary academic back-up, supervision, traceability and accountability that such qualifications entail, get lumped in with the chancers, the cowboys, the people who list a lot of unintelligible, unrecognizable letters after their names and vague organisations they're members of having simply paid a membership fee, in threads like this where people claim that qualified trainers aren't any good.
And this is really unfair. The truth is, and I know this to be true because I know the industry, the majority of the genuinely qualified people are pretty good. Not all perfect, but pretty good... Some brilliant. They are coming from an educated base, they are aware of the real, properly analysed routes by which dogs learn, and critically, they also know how to ethically and properly "correct" unwanted behaviours without causing any distress to dog or owner, and are committed to this approach.
On the contrary, whilst many of the trainers with only an unaccredited online course to their name will indeed claim to be "positive trainers", in every case that I know, they will revert to unacceptable correction techniques when things don't go their way. I have stories direct from disgruntled owners about every one of these trainers that I know, doing things ranging from mildly but unacceptably aversive to downright hair-raising.
Why? Mainly because they're relying on the age-old, anecdotal, spare the rod and spoil the dog approach to training when the poo hits the fan, because they have not learned the required skills via modern, recognised, externally accredited courses.
Most of these trainers are vastly experienced, but resist getting educated in the science of training with cries of "qualifications are no good, experience is where it's at". It's a very lazy attitude, and I think owners deserve more.
Would we accept this from trainers in other disciplines? Would you bring your kids to a swimming coach whose only "qualification" is that they've been swimming for years? Would you go to language classes where the teacher's only qualification is that they're a native of that country? Would you seek legal representation from someone who posts a lot in the Legal discussion forum but is not a solicitor?
Most people would say no. So why is it that people don't care if their dog trainer is formally trained in the field, often putting their dog at risk?
I can't help but think it's because they don't know the difference between a qualified trainer, and a "qualified" trainer, and that the two are getting wrongly intermingled. I think this does a disservice to those who embrace finding out how to do things properly, from accredited courses given by people who seriously know their stuff.
Membership of good professional organisations helps owners to screen out the qualified from the "qualified". And critically, they provide an avenue via which an owner can complain if they don't get satisfactory service, or if a trainer uses unacceptable techniques on their dog. Trainers that are willing to put themselves up for potential independent scrutiny, not to mention a rigorous membership application process, are generally not going to do anything dodgy with either dogs or their owners.

Ashbx

Thanks DBB and Muddy Paws, I didn't ask her to prove her qualification to be honest and looking back I should have. I wasn't happy with her service and felt that I, as an unqualified but an "experienced" dog owner, could do a better job myself hence why I insisted I got my money back. Since then, I have been bringing my dog to well known training facilities (like Dog Training Ireland which has since closed) as opposed to getting people to the house as I feel they genuinely would have real qualifications than the self proclaimed dog trainers.

Muddy Paws, I understand what you mean about the online courses. I myself have just finished an animal welfare online course and I got a "certificate" for this too.....although, I know myself that it does not deserve to go on the CV as a "qualification".

DBB

That's really bad that you had that experience ashbx, and fair play to you for asking for your money back!
But just to be aware that there are good and bad, qualified, "qualified", and unqualified, who run training centers, and/or who do one to ones. It's a flippin minefield for an owner to know what qualifications mean what, although the third level stuff should signify the qualifications are there.... But not necessarily the experience. Owners should be prepared to ask the questions!

borderlinemeath

Ashbx wrote: »

Thanks DBB and Muddy Paws, I didn't ask her to prove her qualification to be honest and looking back I should have. I wasn't happy with her service and felt that I, as an unqualified but an "experienced" dog owner, could do a better job myself hence why I insisted I got my money back. Since then, I have been bringing my dog to well known training facilities (like Dog Training Ireland which has since closed) as opposed to getting people to the house as I feel they genuinely would have real qualifications than the self proclaimed dog trainers.

Muddy Paws, I understand what you mean about the online courses. I myself have just finished an animal welfare online course and I got a "certificate" for this too.....although, I know myself that it does not deserve to go on the CV as a "qualification".

Depending on your training needs then a properly qualified trainer may well need to visit your home, where your dog is comfortable and confident in their own environment and will express himself naturally rather than in the confines of a training class where they will be too busy either meeting and greeting other dogs or getting to know the environment - either way they won't tend to act as they would at home and your needs may be specific as to unwanted behaviours that occur in the home ie counter surfing, door charging, stranger danger aggressiveness. Or some dogs might not suit a training class in a multi dog environment due to canine aggression so there is always going to be a need for trainers to visit a clients home so it's unfair to pigeonhole all the home visiting trainers as rogue traders.

Ashbx

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Depending on your training needs then a properly qualified trainer may well need to visit your home, where your dog is comfortable and confident in their own environment and will express himself naturally rather than in the confines of a training class where they will be too busy either meeting and greeting other dogs or getting to know the environment - either way they won't tend to act as they would at home and your needs may be specific as to unwanted behaviours that occur in the home ie counter surfing, door charging, stranger danger aggressiveness. Or some dogs might not suit a training class in a multi dog environment due to canine aggression so there is always going to be a need for trainers to visit a clients home so it's unfair to pigeonhole all the home visiting trainers as rogue traders.

Oh completely agree, you are preaching to the choir here! My dog is terrible in big training classes like that, even in a dog park...she terrified, shuts down and hides between my legs the entire time which is why I got the trainer to my house in the first place.

But, I didn't pigeonhole any dog trainers...in fact I said "its all a matter of preference!".

So yes, by all means go to a training class, get a trainer to the house or even do it online yourself. Its all based on preference. I would get a trainer to my house in a heartbeat....if they did their job properly! In fact, my very first post I suggested a dog trainer that comes to your house so I did not pigeonhole anyone!