Minimum years residency in order to get citizenship

Currently the minimum number of years you have to be living in Ireland before getting citizenship is 5.

I think this number is from a different era when there wasn't anywhere close to the level of immigration into Ireland, legal or otherwise.

I know a couple of people who have obtained citizenship after 5 years who are solely doing it to get a passport and the rights that go with that. They have no interest in staying in Ireland permanently, they don't feel Irish, and they don't want to feel Irish.

It makes me feel sad and thinks we're giving citizenship away too cheaply. It's not such a human sacrifice for people in their 20's to more from a poorer country for a better paid job in a better economy only to have to live here 5 years. Especially given the cheaper air travel, Skype etc that exists in our modern world.

What are people's thoughts?

not yet

Deleted User wrote: »

Currently the minimum number of years you have to be living in Ireland before getting citizenship is 5.

I think this number is from a different era when there wasn't anywhere close to the level of immigration into Ireland, legal or otherwise.

I know a couple of people who have obtained citizenship after 5 years who are solely doing it to get a passport and the rights that go with that. They have no interest in staying in Ireland permanently, they don't feel Irish, and they don't want to feel Irish.

It makes me feel sad and thinks we're giving citizenship away too cheaply. It's not such a human sacrifice for people in their 20's to more from a poorer country for a better paid job in a better economy only to have to live here 5 years. Especially given the cheaper air travel, Skype etc that exists in our modern world.

What are people's thoughts?

Ah sure aren't we all Europeans.

desultory

Let them at it. I got myself an Irish passport and I wasn't even born here. Picked up all the begrudgery and everything though, wouldn't wish that on anyone.

desultory

desultory wrote: »

Let them at it. I got myself an Irish passport and I wasn't even born here. Picked up all the begrudgery and everything though, wouldn't wish that on anyone.

What if it (hypothetically, obviously) gets to the stage that 100 million people moved to Ireland?

Would you be fine with that?

If not, where would you draw the line?

shruikan2553

Isnt there a 950 euro charge for Irish citizenship? I may be wrong but if Im right we arent exactl giving it away cheaply.

I have no issues with it, I may do the same in another country some day.

desultory

Deleted User wrote: »

What if it (hypothetically, obviously) gets to the stage that 100 million people moved to Ireland?

Would you be fine with that?

If not, where would you draw the line?

Well I'm leaving Ireland in the next month(again) so yeah I guess I'd be ok with it. I don't know where I'd draw the line. I'd go by employement percentages for that.

Maphisto

Deleted User wrote: »

What if it (hypothetically, obviously) gets to the stage that 100 million people moved to Ireland?

Would you be fine with that?

If not, where would you draw the line?

Cripes we'd sink

kneemos

Can't see how it matters.

How does it matter?

PizzamanIRL

As soon as you touch Irish soil you should be given citizenship, begorrah.

Annasopra

kneemos wrote: »

Can't see how it matters.

How does it matter?

Exactly - cant see what the big deal is at all

Standman

But what if a billions immigrantz move here?

Mountainsandh

Yeah, I think 5 years is too little too. Citizenship is a big deal imo. 10 years. Unless someone married here before that.

I'm here 17 years. Don't think I would or could possibly have considered myself Irish after 5 years.

(still don't really, so I'm still fully French, although the voting right is an issue at this stage)

It is a bit heart breaking when you think of refugees who have genuine good reason to stay though, don't know the ins and outs of it, if they have equal rights to work etc... after a few years with a "settled refugee" sort of status, then I don't see the need for a short 5 year rule.

Alf. A. Male

An era when there was less immigration? There hasn't been one. Celts, Normans, British and what have you, we've always had immigration in some form, as an island and as a state. And do you have an argument against the current regulations other than a wooly phrase like "giving it away cheaply"?

wretcheddomain

Standman wrote: »

But what if a billions immigrantz move here?

Then Nigel Farage will move over to try and kick them (somehow) into Romania and Bulgaria.

wendell borton

Was just watching a documentary on tg4 that made the point that there are three things that define nationality: your homeland, your culture and most important your language.

Peregrine

It should just be a test to see how many Father Ted lines they can quote. None of this 5 years crap.

shopaholic01

Standman wrote: »

But what if a billions immigrantz move here?

Multiply that by €950 each for residency. We'd be rich. RICH!

wretcheddomain

30 years (even for Irish born) - if anyone leaves the country as an emigrant then the counter goes back down to zero. Stops all the young people emigrating.

There should be a permit system for the immigrants and auto-removal after a defined period.

Cost of citizenship: €1,500 per person, every 2 years.

kneemos

Standman wrote: »

But what if a billions immigrantz move here?

So....?

Mountainsandh

Alf. A. Male wrote: »

And do you have an argument against the current regulations other than a wooly phrase like "giving it away cheaply"?

I think citizenship is different from residency though.
Imo it is a very big deal, you're not just giving people the right to stay, it's part of one's identity.

Boskowski

Anyone who goes somewhere to work for 5 years and better themselves should be welcomed with open arms. Its a lot more than can be said for a sizeable chunk of the natives. This is true in many countries including my own and also Ireland.

I reject that notion of blood or heritage or whatever you wanna call it making someone more worthy over someone who works hard, pays taxes and is generally a functioning and contributing member of society.

Mer personally, I couldn't care less whether I have an Irish passport or not. I could have switched a long time ago, but I don't want to. I'm not Irish and no matter how long I live here it won't change that. Plus bar the full voting rights for the dail (which I can do without, thank you very much) I can see very little tangible stuff where I'm at a disadvantage without an Irish passport. I'm from another EU state btw.

I assume you're talking about non-EU citizens then?

Mountainsandh

Boskowski, 5 years is nothing though.
You could work 5 years here and still be a tourist, imo.

edit : just checking there, there are long term residency arrangements in place, so really no need to flog out citizenships after 5 years.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/rights_of_residence_in_ireland/residence_rights_of_non_eea_nationals_in_ireland.html

kneemos

If you're eligible to live and work here you should be entitled to a passport
Dunno how many actually apply for one in any case.

Mountainsandh

kneemos wrote: »

If you're eligible to live and work here you should be entitled to a passport
Dunno how many actually apply for one in any case.

So an American freshly landed with a job here and accommodation sorted should be granted citizenship immediately ? or do you mean after the 5 years ?

I still think 5 years is too little.

The long term residency arrangements allow one to work and live here. (see link above)

Boskowski

I have no issues if people for whom this whole blood, heritage, diddley eye thing is very important would like to make it 10 or 20 or whatever. I agree 5 years won't make you Irish. But neither will 20 unless you came here age 5.

I think working, paying taxes and not breaking laws for 5 years is as good a criteria as any.

Me personally I have very little sentimental feelings towards any country including my own. Sure I love my Nationalmannschaft and my food and my folks but if I hadn't family or friends over there my desire to go 'home' wouldn't be any greater than going to Portugal on holidays for example. Home is where you make it.

Alf. A. Male

Alf. A. Male wrote: »

An era when there was less immigration? There hasn't been one. Celts, Normans, British and what have you, we've always had immigration in some form, as an island and as a state. And do you have an argument against the current regulations other than a wooly phrase like "giving it away cheaply"?

The question I posed doesn't have a scientifically proven answer. It's subjective. I game my opinion in the first post.

Also, Celts, Normans, British weren't "immigrants" coming here hoping to settle in and get a job. They were mostly invading armies who wanted to steal the land if my history is correct (could be wrong).

comongethappy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The question I posed doesn't have a scientifically proven answer. It's subjective. I game my opinion in the first post.

Also, Celts, Normans, British weren't "immigrants" coming here hoping to settle in and get a job. They were mostly invading armies who wanted to steal the land if my history is correct (could be wrong).

Most waves of early immigration werent that organised, it was a slow process.

5 years is perfectly fine imo.
What difference would doubling it make?

Mountainsandh

I agree some bit with you B, but you don't need to want to "go home" to feel you're a national of a place, imo.

I don't want to live in France, but I'm still French.

I suppose I do have a sentimental view of this.
If I asked for double nationality, even after 17 years, I would take it very seriously, it would really mean something. (not a hope in hell I could "undo" my Frenchyness altogether).

So the 5 years is shocking to me.

True, you could be here 30 years and not consider yourself Irish, but if you ask for citizenship after 10 years, chances are you mean it more than if you do after 5 years.

kneemos

Mountainsandh wrote: »

So an American freshly landed with a job here and accommodation sorted should be granted citizenship immediately ? or do you mean after the 5 years ?

I still think 5 years is too little.

The long term residency arrangements allow one to work and live here. (see link above)

Good enough to work and pay tax then good enough for a passport.
What do you want for them to become "Irish"before they get one.
As I say I doubt that many apply anyway.

aidoh

Mountainsandh

comongethappy wrote: »

Most waves of early immigration werent that organised, it was a slow process.

5 years is perfectly fine imo.
What difference would doubling it make?

I think a big one. It's another 5 years a person has to make up their mind if they're really staying. It's going past the honeymoon phase, the 7 year itch for example.

It's another 5 years of absorbing the country's culture.

osarusan

Mountainsandh wrote: »

but if you ask for citizenship after 10 years, chances are you mean it more than if you do after 5 years.

I don't see why - it's much more an issue of attitude than time - as evidenced by your comment that you could be in Ireland for 30 years and not consider yourself Irish.

I think that the whole "Irish citizenship indicates Irish cultural identity" is barking up the wrong tree anyway.

kneemos

kneemos wrote: »

Good enough to work and pay tax then good enough for a passport.
What do you want for them to become "Irish"before they get one.
As I say I doubt that many apply anyway.

so you think we should dole out passports to every tom, dick and harry that works here even for a small time?

you don't foresee any negative consequences from that?

mike65

Nationality is such a 20th century notion - see all the millions of dead that prove it.

Just stick with residency, and make sure that being one confers total rights.

kneemos

[Deleted User] wrote: »

so you think we should dole out passports to every tom, dick and harry that works here even for a small time?

you don't foresee any negative consequences from that?

Pray tell?

Alf. A. Male

Deleted User wrote: »

The question I posed doesn't have a scientifically proven answer. It's subjective. I game my opinion in the first post.

So that would be a no then. Jaysis, you didn't even try to make a reasoned argument, just criticised the time limits.

Boskowski

Mountain, I don't think having an Irish passport makes you Irish and I don't think it intends to do that. Regardless whether you feel strongly about your country or not, whatever sentimental feelings are there will probably always remain with your original country.

I think people read too much into this 'getting an Irish passport' thing. Its not like its a rite at full moon held by serious men with masks humming ancient chants and boom you're fully fledged sworn Irish if the nightingale clucks twice precisely at midnight. Its an administrative act, boring. You fill out a form, go through an application process and some clerk gives you the stamp. Next day you're still not Irish.

kneemos

kneemos wrote: »

Pray tell?

Well for example, people coming from homophobic cultures, or places where women's rights are minimal, would be able to travel freely and give their opinions to people abroad while representing Irish people might be one thing.

Mountainsandh

osarusan wrote: »

I don't see why - it's much more an issue of attitude than time - as efidence by your comment that you could be 30 years and not consider yourself Irish.

I think that the whole "Irish citizenship indicates Irish cultural identity" is barking up the wrong tree anyway.

Well yes, attitude, but I feel although I could have proclaimed myself Irish after 5 years, with hindsight, I think I wouldn't at all have been Irish.

You have a different understanding of a country after 10 years than 5. A better understanding, in my opinion. You have lived a decade in a place, you have shared a decade's experience of events with the nationals, rather than having lived 2 years still as a very very foreign person in a foreign country, then 3 years getting to know the place a bit better.

Irish citizenship does indicate Irish cultural identity.

Economy should really serve a country, not define it. (imo)
The feeling I get from this thread is that a lot of people view it as an economics issue.

kneemos

Boskowski wrote: »

Mountain, I don't think having an Irish passport makes you Irish and I don't think it intends to do that. Regardless whether you feel strongly about your country or not, whatever sentimental feelings are there will probably always remain with your original country.

I think people read too much into this 'getting an Irish passport' thing. Its not like its a rite at full moon held by serious men with masks humming ancient chants and boom you're fully fledged sworn Irish if the nightingale clucks twice precisely at midnight. Its an administrative act, boring. You fill out a form, go through an application process and some clerk gives you the stamp. Next day you're still not Irish.

Think you've missed the whole point of naturalisationn

Alf. A. Male

Alf. A. Male wrote: »

So that would be a no then. Jaysis, you didn't even try to make a reasoned argument, just criticised the time limits.

I think I gave my reasons. I suspect there is no argument that you would accept as "reasoned" on this.

I told you correctly, there is no scientific answer. IT'S SUBJECTIVE AND COMES DOWN TO PERSONAL PREFERENCES :rolleyes:

Boskowski

Deleted User wrote: »

Well for example, people coming from homophobic cultures, or places where women's rights are minimal, would be able to travel freely and give their opinions to people abroad while representing Irish people might be one thing.

Ye but they might be coming from there to escape all that?!?

If I had an Irish passport and I was travelling to America what do you think people would take me for? German or Irish? I think they would view me as German. Just because I entered America on an Irish passport doesn't make me a representative of the Irish. Do you think it does?

Jimoslimos

mike65 wrote: »

Nationality is such a 20th century notion - see all the millions of dead that prove it.

Just stick with residency, and make sure that being one confers total rights.

Tell that to foreign residents in Switzerland.

Boskowski

kneemos wrote: »

Think you've missed the whole point of naturalisationn

Must have. What is it?

marmurr1916

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Irish citizenship does indicate Irish cultural identity..

No it doesn't. It's a legal status that gives you the rights and responsibilities that go with citizenship.

Just look at all the Unionists from NI, British in their cultural identity, who get Irish passports (which requires Irish citizenship to obtain) so they can qualify for tuition-free education at universities in Scotland.

Mountainsandh

Boskowski wrote: »

Mountain, I don't think having an Irish passport makes you Irish and I don't think it intends to do that. Regardless whether you feel strongly about your country or not, whatever sentimental feelings are there will probably always remain with your original country.

I think people read too much into this 'getting an Irish passport' thing. Its not like its a rite at full moon held by serious men with masks humming ancient chants and boom you're fully fledged sworn Irish if the nightingale clucks twice precisely at midnight. Its an administrative act, boring. You fill out a form, go through an application process and some clerk gives you the stamp. Next day you're still not Irish.

That's a terrible way to look at things, utterly lacking in idealism, and so I strongly disagree.

I think there is a huge problem with lack of ideals here atm, or a denial thereof, and I don't think that's the right way to go.

But it's late and I'm going to go dream enthusiastically of a better future, where people do give more importance to principles, and meaningful citizenship. :P

kneemos

Boskowski wrote: »

Must have. What is it?

You become Irish.

Sad how many Irish people place so little value on their nationality and are so willing to anyone who spends a few years here, as if it's such a huge sacrifice in this day and age.

The only people that I know who have applied or are applying for citizenship are only using the country to get a passport for travel rights (visa waivers etc). They have no plans to stay in Ireland long-term, and they couldn't really care less about the country.

They read the news in their home country, Skype family and friends back home and spend almost all their holidays in their home country (if I lived abroad I think I'd spend at least a few days year holidaying and discovering my host country)

Standman

Deleted User wrote: »

Sad how many Irish people place so little value on their nationality and are so willing to anyone who spends a few years here, as if it's such a huge sacrifice in this day and age.

The only people that I know who have applied or are applying for citizenship are only using the country to get a passport for travel rights (visa waivers etc). They have no plans to stay in Ireland long-term, and they couldn't really care less about the country.

They read the news in their home country, Skype family and friends back home and spend almost all their holidays in their home country (if I lived abroad I think I'd spend at least a few days year holidaying and discovering my host country)

I wish they would pay more attention to me too.

Mountainsandh

marmurr1916 wrote: »

No it doesn't. It's a legal status that gives you the rights and responsibilities that go with citizenship.

Just look at all the Unionists from NI, British in their cultural identity, who get Irish passports (which requires Irish citizenship to obtain) so they can qualify for tuition-free education at universities in Scotland.

Yes, legal status.
But citizenship also means you are part of a community, and a community usually implies a common culture.

Again, ideals, principles. Not much room for that in Ireland right now. Me thinks that's a shame. Me supposed to be gone out of discussion. :pac:

B.A._Baracus

Why not 3 years? I mean does it really matter?
Ireland is in the EU so literally 5 million people could fly over to here within the next week and look for jobs. The doors are open.

Sure alot of Polish and Nigerians were & are working over here with the idea to return home with a good portion of savings. On the Nigerian side of things, so many have already racked up the current 5 year citizenship requirement. I am friends with a couple who have.

So does it matter how long the requirement is? Will it make any difference?
Ireland is multi-culture. The way of the western world.