Water meter protests

Bob24

Coat22 wrote: »

Of course this is the most hated of all austerity measures because there is no getting away from this one boys and girls. Not like USC, abolishing the PRSI ceiling and a property tax that only 50% of the country have to pay. This one is for everyone – no exceptions (yet) for the council house dwellers, those on undeclared income etc. The coping classes are not going to have to shoulder this one all on their own and its hurting the noisy neighbours

Yes exactly.

The only people who have a rational (but possibly selfish) reason for being against water charges are the ones who don't pay tax or who know they are using much more water than average - i.e. the people who are currently getting their "free" water paid for by the rest of the population through general taxation, and will lose this benefit.

In my view other people should reasonably support the change as if not a water charge it would inevitably have been a higher tax hike for them to swallow. But of course it still is an additional cost for them and there is no chance it will lead to lower taxation - which is probably pushing some of them to protest as well.

ciarawira

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Should we take your word that the water quality will get worse?

You still haven't answered the question by the way - would you be in favour of water charges is the meters were of better quality (and therefore more expensive, costing taxpayers more)?

And you haven't addressed my point that we are not paying enough taxes to cover water charges as it is.

From reading your posts, it seems like you're just parroting off objections that you've read on the Dublin Says No Facebook page to be honest.

the quality is worse where i am ,hense the reason for me protesting!

as i said before not necessarily as they would have to fix my water before i would consider paying.

well it's nice to know i am not alone !

ciarawira

wretcheddomain wrote: »

It takes a certain type of mentality for these people to make a holy show of themselves; the type that craves attention for being the 'rebel' in society.

Everybody else accepts that it isn't the most welcome form of tax but that ultimately it is necessary and has to be dealt with like responsible adults.

We can have our say at the next elections, rather than disrupting people from doing their jobs just because you lot have a permanent chip of entitlement on your shoulder.

On this basis, I'll tar you all twice with the same brush and still have lots left over for same.

"These people" are you for real?!

just because you are more than happy to bend over and take it up the arse doesn't mean that we all have to!

i have my say at every election but not everyone is of the same mind ! i never disrupted anyone from doing their job as i just had a friendly word with the workers in my area and they said " that's grand , sure we don't care"!! Yes i have a chip of entitlement as I AM ENTITLED to quality water!!

Tar me all you like even though you haven't a clue about me or my situation!

Bob24

ciarawira wrote: »

as i said before not necessarily as they would have to fix my water before i would consider paying.

But if everybody is like you and doesn't want to pay until things get better (being through water charges or general taxation), where is the money to improve your service going to come from?

ciarawira

Uriel. wrote: »

So in what way is the cover harmful, dangerous or substandard?ld

well if you have kids in your area and the cover is smashed up be it from thugs/vandals or a car driving over it to park etc. it would shatter easily because it is plastic and with young children in the area they could get hurt ! And before you ask yes i have seen it happen but luckily i copped it before any harm was done!

ciarawira

Bob24 wrote: »

Yes exactly.

The only people who have a rational (but possibly selfish) reason for being against water charges are the ones who don't pay tax or who know they are using much more water than average - i.e. the people who are currently getting their "free" water paid for by the rest of the population through general taxation, and will lose this benefit.

In my view other people should reasonably support the change as if not a water charge it would inevitably have been a higher tax hike for them to swallow. But of course it still is an additional cost for them and there is no chance it will lead to lower taxation - which is probably pushing some of them to protest as well.

i pay my taxes yet i am against water charges!and i preserve as mush as possible also use a water butt!

Bob24

ciarawira wrote: »

well if you have kids in your area and the cover is smashed up be it from thugs/vandals or a car driving over it to park etc. it would shatter easily because it is plastic and with young children in the area they could get hurt ! And before you ask yes i have seen it happen but luckily i copped it before any harm was done!

If I am to believe this Wikipedia article, the only other country in the world where water is free is Turkmenistan.

There are billions of meters which have been installed elsewhere in the world for decades. A number countries in the rest of the world must be using similar meters to ours.

Regardless of being in favour or against water charges, are you really saying their is evidence of them been that dangerous?

ciarawira

Bob24 wrote: »

But if everybody is like you and doesn't want to pay until things get better (being through water charges or general taxation), where is the money to improve your service going to come from?

well they should of thought of that one before they started installing meters! where did the money for the meters come from? if they had of used the money instead of buying meters and used it instead to better the quality of water they could have brought in a blanket charge to pay for the meters! just my opinion !

ciarawira

Bob24 wrote: »

the only other country in the world where water is free is Turkmenistan. A number countries in the rest of the world must be using similar meters to ours.

There are billions of meters which have installed elsewhere in the world for decades. Regardless of being in favour or against water charges, are you really saying their is evidence of them been that dangerous?

other country?
we never had "free" water! i don't know if every other country in the world has meters!
no i don't have evidence as the workers were close by so i got them to change it! don't take pictures of everything i see so didn't come to mind until it was said !

mad muffin

I'm not against water charges if they improve the water quality. But will it? It will me hole. :rolleyes:

Bob24

ciarawira wrote: »

other country?
we never had "free" water! i don't know if every other country in the world has meters!
no i don't have evidence as the workers were close by so i got them to change it! don't take pictures of everything i see so didn't come to mind until it was said !

You got what I meant - Ireland is one of the only 2 countries in the world where people don't have to pay for the water they are using, and in most countries it is charged based on meters. If they were that dangerous it would be clearly documented at this stage.

ciarawira

ciarawira wrote: »

well they should of thought of that one before they started installing meters! where did the money for the meters come from? if they had of used the money instead of buying meters and used it instead to better the quality of water they could have brought in a blanket charge to pay for the meters! just my opinion !

So you'd be happy to pay a blanket charge? Surely the meters is a fairer system? Would you want to pay the same a year as say a household with 7 or 8 people in it?

If the money is used to improve the quality of water & the water infrastructure that's gotta be a good use of the money generated rather than just being profit for a company.

ciarawira

Bob24 wrote: »

You got what I meant - Ireland is one of the only 2 countries in the world where people don't have to pay for the water they are using, and in most countries it is charged based on meters. If they were that dangerous it would be clearly documented at this stage.

i actually didn't get what you meant ,but do now,sorry.
its the covers i am talking about if one is an acception to the rule so be it.

dxhound2005

Deleted User wrote: »

So you'd be happy to pay a blanket charge? Surely the meters is a fairer system? Would you want to pay the same a year as say a household with 7 or 8 people in it?

If the money is used to improve the quality of water & the water infrastructure that's gotta be a good use of the money generated rather than just being profit for a company.

Because there is no incentive at the moment not to waste water average usage in Ireland is much higher than in countries where it is metered and charged for. So one result of metering should be a reduction in the amount of water which has to be treated and supplied. Since the supply in the greater Dublin area is apparently on a knife edge this should help to ease matters until new infrastructure can be provided.

Just as an aside another "country" which doesn't charge for water is Northern Ireland but their infrastructure is very poor as evidenced by the disaster of the winter a couple of years back.

ciarawira

Deleted User wrote: »

So you'd be happy to pay a blanket charge? Surely the meters is a fairer system? Would you want to pay the same a year as say a household with 7 or 8 people in it?

If the money is used to improve the quality of water & the water infrastructure that's gotta be a good use of the money generated rather than just being profit for a company.

i didn't say i was happy to pay a blanket charge ! i was merely giving an example of how they could have done it! i am sure there are many different ways they could have gone about it !

that's a big if! who's to say they wont sell it off to a private company who will hike up the bill continuously for profit?

Uriel.

ciarawira wrote: »

well if you have kids in your area and the cover is smashed up be it from thugs/vandals or a car driving over it to park etc. it would shatter easily because it is plastic and with young children in the area they could get hurt ! And before you ask yes i have seen it happen but luckily i copped it before any harm was done!

One could say that about every element that adorns our public Street. One should point the finger at the so called thugs. Incidentally Have you tested the covers.?

Uriel.

ciarawira wrote: »

i didn't say i was happy to pay a blanket charge ! i was merely giving an example of how they could have done it! i am sure there are many different ways they could have gone about it !

that's a big if! who's to say they wont sell it off to a private company who will hike up the bill continuously for profit?

Who is to say anything. Conjecture and fantasy won't convince many, no matter how dull their lives

ciarawira

Uriel. wrote: »

One could say that about every element that adorns our public Street. One should point the finger at the so called thugs. Incidentally Have you tested the covers.?

yes one could and i am sure some do!without sufficient evidence i wouldn't be one to point my finger at anyone! no as i don't have one nor am i going to because i am not a vandal!

ciarawira

Uriel. wrote: »

Who is to say anything. Conjecture and fantasy won't convince many, no matter how dull their lives

that goes for both sides of the "argument"

Uriel.

end of the road wrote: »

but general taxation isn't going to go down, its going to go up and keep going up along with these service charges, thats the reality

Which would indicate the reality that we aren't paying enough for the services we get. Which is true. We've taken two approaches in tandem during the "crisis" reduce expenditure and increase charges. It seems people aren't happy with either. Which is fine, but something must give. We can't continue as we are.

As much as it pains me, sometimes I wish the shinners would come to power, let everyone experience the poverty line for a whole, destroy the country, then let everyone come to their senses... Then I come to my senses

Uriel.

ciarawira wrote: »

that goes for both sides of the "argument"

What's the other side?

Uriel.

ciarawira wrote: »

yes one could and i am sure some do!without sufficient evidence i wouldn't be one to point my finger at anyone! no as i don't have one nor am i going to because i am not a vandal!

Have you sufficient evidence that the covers are substandard?

II'm glad you're not a vandal. But I find it strange that you'd blame the product before you'd blame the vandal.

ciarawira

Uriel. wrote: »

Which would indicate the reality that we aren't paying enough for the services we get. Which is true. We've taken two approaches in tandem during the "crisis" reduce expenditure and increase charges. It seems people aren't happy with either. Which is fine, but something must give. We can't continue as we are.

As much as it pains me, sometimes I wish the shinners would come to power, let everyone experience the poverty line for a whole, destroy the country, then let everyone come to their senses... Then I come to my senses

i would agree that we dont pay enough but it's like modern day robin hood (without robin hood) also the cost of living hasn't come down an awful lot but the wages has ! something must give but unfortunately a lot of people are going to have to suffer for a long time before it does!

Uriel.

ciarawira wrote: »

i would agree that we dont pay enough but it's like modern day robin hood (without robin hood) also the cost of living hasn't come down an awful lot but the wages has ! something must give but unfortunately a lot of people are going to have to suffer for a long time before it does!

Such is the reality of over indulgence by many.
Racking up the cost of public service by redirecting public resources to deal with this kinda of crap is helping absolutely no one at all.

Perhaps a portion of Robin hood might, God forbid, be in the social welfare system

Bob24

Uriel. wrote: »

Perhaps a portion of Robin hood might, God forbid, be in the social welfare system

ciarawira

Uriel. wrote: »

Have you sufficient evidence that the covers are substandard?

II'm glad you're not a vandal. But I find it strange that you'd blame the product before you'd blame the vandal.

as i said before no i do not have actual evidence. i only blame the product as it was clearly easily done and if it is so easily done how can they not be sub standard? as the ones used before were cast iron

flutered

ciarawira wrote: »

well they should of thought of that one before they started installing meters! where did the money for the meters come from? if they had of used the money instead of buying meters and used it instead to better the quality of water they could have brought in a blanket charge to pay for the meters! just my opinion !

has there not been 111b invested in setting the water company, what kind of improvments would this sum achive, the downside is that fg's rich friends would have got nothing out of it, now that would never do, now would it.

SteM

Uriel. wrote: »

II'm glad you're not a vandal. But I find it strange that you'd blame the product before you'd blame the vandal.

Indeed. Like blaming the quality of a car window that get smashed rather than blaming the person that smashes it!

ciarawira

SteM wrote: »

Indeed. Like blaming the quality of a car window that get smashed rather than blaming the person that smashes it!

i dont think a car window would be smashed as easily!

Bob24

flutered wrote: »

has there not been 111b invested in setting the water company,

No there hasn't.

It is more 180 millions (source: Irish Independent, so I assume it is not an underestimated figure).

flutered wrote: »

what kind of improvments would this sum achive, the downside is that fg's rich friends would have got nothing out of it, now that would never do, now would it.

I am no specialist, but probably not much.

I can see here the current capital investment plan at Irish Water is worth 1.77 billions for 2014-2016.

SweetChaos

Its disgusting to see how 9 gardai have to be deployed to control these troublemakers when they could be used else where What I dont understand from that video previously posted is why the "protesters" are not consistant in what they are protesting against they seem to wander from one thing to another the "whistleblowers" , "the 1000 dead babies" they look to me like a shower of deadbeats with nothing better to do they are costing us more money each day who has to pay for the Guards that are standing there thats right the taxpayers not them Look at there other videos the guards have to control them in many of then one wrong move the claim to be pushed hurt and claim compo it says a lot


I agree with the people from the country protesting that have been on a boil notice for years and wanting a better supply before they pay but dublin has a good supply but these dublin says no crowd are a bunch of intimating thugs who want everything in life for free

Uriel.

ciarawira wrote: »

as i said before no i do not have actual evidence. i only blame the product as it was clearly easily done and if it is so easily done how can they not be sub standard? as the ones used before were cast iron

what's the standard?

How can you claim substandard with no evidence?

Little CuChulainn

Full story about todays "protest" is up on the Journal now. Not sure how reliable it was. Turns out Irish Water were trying to repair damage done to the pipes during the night by some plumbers trying to bypass the meters. Some wheelchair user managed to lie himself on the ground behind a digger too it seems, going by the pictures. So you can add a wasted ambulance to the cost of their protest too. I don't understand why Irish Water just don't give each householder a choice. Meter or estimated bill.

Bob24

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I don't understand why Irish Water just don't give each householder a choice. Meter or estimated bill.

Maybe that would be a way to buy peace at the beginning, but I guess it is not sustainable and it would defeat one of the purpose of having meters: heavy users know who they are and would all pick the assed charge.

Uriel.

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Full story about todays "protest" is up on the Journal now. Not sure how reliable it was. Turns out Irish Water were trying to repair damage done to the pipes during the night by some plumbers trying to bypass the meters. Some wheelchair user managed to lie himself on the ground behind a digger too it seems, going by the pictures. So you can add a wasted ambulance to the cost of their protest too. I don't understand why Irish Water just don't give each householder a choice. Meter or estimated bill.

And any unpaid bills deducted from state payments, tax credits etc.

Barely There

ciarawira wrote: »

as i said before no i do not have actual evidence. i only blame the product as it was clearly easily done and if it is so easily done how can they not be sub standard? as the ones used before were cast iron I haven't got a clue what I'm talking about really.

FYP

No Pants

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

So you can add a wasted ambulance to the cost of their protest too.

Just read that and I'm unsure why an ambulance was needed. Just grab an ankle and drag the silly ****er to the kerb.

sparkynash

They can protest all they want but they will not stop them being installed.the sooner the work is done and we start paying the better.

Tony EH

endacl wrote: »

No, there weren't. I'd be anti the metering system, by the way. Just for clarity! On the other hand, there are a lot of people complaining that things 'used to be free'. They never were. They all had to be paid for.

I don't like to see an administration in essence saying to the people 'yeah, ye gave us loads of cash in taxes to run the place but we cocked it up. Give us more'. I'm not talking about the likes of motor tax here, but basic services that everybody uses.

The lack of meters didn't mean it was free. Just that it wasn't metered. It still cost money to get from the reservoir to your tap.

This is the thing a staggering number of people have difficulty understanding. It really is mind blowing.

We actually pay millions for our water through taxation and yet we're told, and some people buy into, the story that "it isn't enough".

So, now, what's going to happen is that Irish water will be privatised and the householder will be hit with a bill, that will rise and rise, because inevitably, they will be told that "it isn't enough".

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that in a few years time, people will be looking at a yearly bill of near enough to a grand for water supply.

Once the privatisation of water supply is finialised, there will be nothing to stop the company from charging the householder what they wish. Our regulators are toothless and we have had a succession of governments that have been completely unwilling to tackle ripoff Ireland in all its guises.

LordNorbury

Somewhere a line needs to be drawn in this country. If Water Charges are let in, and we've already let in a Universal Social Charge and a Property Tax, then next year or the year after, we'll be having a Universal Health Insurance Charge shaken out of us, and then following on from that, we'll be having Mandatory Pension deductions from our salaries.

None of this would be a problem if we were not living in a high tax economy that takes 41% of your income from you once you earn more than 32,800 Euro, that taxes you at 23% VAT on any "luxury" goods that you buy, and that will take just under 2,900 Euro a year from you via a Universal Social Charge, if you have the audacity to earn a 50K a year salary.

This government laid out a program of deep reform during the last election, they said they would take on the vested interests, (who thus far have had their core pay pretty mush protected from any austerity), who are making this country so expensive to run, the unionised people with no real jobs in the health sector and in the local authorities, the "administrators", the bean counters in the civil service who have no real role or function but who cannot be made redundant pursuant to the Croke Park Agreement and The Haddington Road Agreement.

Then they got elected, and instead of seriously paring down the cost of running the country, they then embarked on this crazy plan of leaving the vested interests in place, and introduced a whole range of new taxes that are now leaving hard working people destitute and all of this is a threat to any real recovery in this economy.

This government has no moral or legal authority to impose water charges on its citizens and the sooner people start standing up to this muppet of a school teacher who is running the country and his lackie fools, the better.

Coat22

Ah you see you sound to me like a would be PD voter. We had the PDs but they came to a terminal end in 2007 when they failed to get re-elected. The unwashed don’t want to hear your views. They are happy out in their meaningless jobs in the health sector etc. In the absence of a PD alternative we have FG as the next best option. Problem is they are in government with the Union (sorry Labour) party and there are a sizable number of leftie loonies waiting in the wing whipping up the masses.

Their hands are tied. If we really wanted all these structural problems addressed we’d vote in a FG or similar majority and let them get on with their jobs but that will never happen here as the masses will always have enough numbers to prevent it.

Chips Lovell

LordNorbury wrote: »

This government has no moral or legal authority to impose water charges.

What law are they breaking?

Uriel.

LordNorbury wrote: »

Somewhere a line needs to be drawn in this country. If Water Charges are let in, and we've already let in a Universal Social Charge and a Property Tax, then next year or the year after, we'll be having a Universal Health Insurance Charge shaken out of us, and then following on from that, we'll be having Mandatory Pension deductions from our salaries.

None of this would be a problem if we were not living in a high tax economy that takes 41% of your income from you once you earn more than 32,800 Euro, that taxes you at 23% VAT on any "luxury" goods that you buy, and that will take just under 2,900 Euro a year from you via a Universal Social Charge, if you have the audacity to earn a 50K a year salary.

This government laid out a program of deep reform during the last election, they said they would take on the vested interests, (who thus far have had their core pay pretty mush protected from any austerity), who are making this country so expensive to run, the unionised people with no real jobs in the health sector and in the local authorities, the "administrators", the bean counters in the civil service who have no real role or function but who cannot be made redundant pursuant to the Croke Park Agreement and The Haddington Road Agreement.

Then they got elected, and instead of seriously paring down the cost of running the country, they then embarked on this crazy plan of leaving the vested interests in place, and introduced a whole range of new taxes that are now leaving hard working people destitute and all of this is a threat to any real recovery in this economy.

This government has no moral or legal authority to impose water charges on its citizens and the sooner people start standing up to this muppet of a school teacher who is running the country and his lackie fools, the better.

a 10% reduction in numbers and an 18% reduction in the cost of public service is not too shabby in the first three years office. After 5, those figures will be higher.

Making statements like public servants have had "their core pay pretty mush protected from any austerity" is not true either.

The Government does have legal authority to impose water charges. In fact, not only does it have legal authority to do it, it has an obligation under the EU Water Framework Directive and EU Policy.

You call Enda Kenny a muppet, but who do you propose in his place? Gerry Adams? Richard Boyd Barrett?

Bob24

LordNorbury wrote: »

Somewhere a line needs to be drawn in this country. If Water Charges are let in, and we've already let in a Universal Social Charge and a Property Tax, then next year or the year after, we'll be having a Universal Health Insurance Charge shaken out of us, and then following on from that, we'll be having Mandatory Pension deductions from our salaries.

None of this would be a problem if we were not living in a high tax economy that takes 41% of your income from you once you earn more than 32,800 Euro, that taxes you at 23% VAT on any "luxury" goods that you buy, and that will take just under 2,900 Euro a year from you via a Universal Social Charge, if you have the audacity to earn a 50K a year salary.

Or is it the fact that our holy low corporate tax is not compatible with low taxation for individuals? And after years of EU subsidies and property bubble to hide that fact, it is time for Ireland to face reality?

Quite possibly there is some money wasted in the government, but I am not sure it is is the main issue ...

Lemlin

kneemos wrote: »

Curious how people have succumbed so easily to this tax, even to the point of turning against the protesters.Yet no doubt everyone will complain endlessly about having to pay it.

You'd be even more amazed then to learn that rural people have been paying for water for years. And then paying indirectly via their tax for the water of other people also.

Tony EH wrote: »

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that in a few years time, people will be looking at a yearly bill of near enough to a grand for water supply.

Once the privatisation of water supply is finialised, there will be nothing to stop the company from charging the householder what they wish. Our regulators are toothless and we have had a succession of governments that have been completely unwilling to tackle ripoff Ireland in all its guises.

I've seen this scaremongering about privitisation elsewhere. I imagine most people would go and dig their own private well if they were paying 1k+ in water charges a year. A good well can be done for 3k.

If you ask me, any protestor should have their water cut off completely and they should be left to organise their own alternate source until they are willing to pay for the service.

Macy0161

LordNorbury wrote: »

This government has no moral or legal authority to impose water charges on its citizens and the sooner people start standing up to this muppet of a school teacher who is running the country and his lackie fools, the better.

Where do I get my refund for drilling my well, putting in a treatment system and ongoing maintenance and electricity costs? When do those on group water schemes get their refund?

grundie

The government could save themselves a a whole lot of hassle if they just set up a website that offered a detailed breakdown of where our tax money goes.

I'd like to know what proportion of my tax goes to the local council, how much to roads, how much to the ECB for the bailout, and how much goes to Irish Water etc. A sort of basic balance sheet for government spending. I want to actually see where my money is going, that is what will ease my skepticism about all these new charges.

That data is available on various government websites, but it's hardly accessible to the lay man.

LordNorbury

Uriel. wrote: »

a 10% reduction in numbers and an 18% reduction in the cost of public service is not too shabby in the first three years office. After 5, those figures will be higher.

Making statements like public servants have had "their core pay pretty mush protected from any austerity" is not true either.

The Government does have legal authority to impose water charges. In fact, not only does it have legal authority to do it, it has an obligation under the EU Water Framework Directive and EU Policy.

You call Enda Kenny a muppet, but who do you propose in his place? Gerry Adams? Richard Boyd Barrett?

I may be wrong there when I say he technically has no legal authority to impose water charges, as the government of the day can legislate for anything in theory. However he got elected after promising to take on deeply embedded highly unionised vested interests in this country, which he has completely failed to do, and now that he has failed to do that, people are rightly standing up to him on Water Charges and saying that they aren't putting up with it. People have no more to give, so everything should be back on the table now, including our corporate tax rate and our membership of the Euro.

You can't have a society where the vast majority of people in it have been left absolutely destitute, to pay for the whims of a minority living in the same society, who think that because they happen to work for the government, that they are entitled to excess pay and are entitled to terms & conditions of employment that greatly exceed what is available in the private sector jobs market. The boom is long over and its about time some people got with the program I think and snapped out of it and got real with regard to pay.

No Pants

LordNorbury wrote: »

You can't have a society where the vast majority of people in it have been left absolutely destitute

Indeed you cannot.

Where is this?

Shenshen

grundie wrote: »

The government could save themselves a a whole lot of hassle if they just set up a website that offered a detailed breakdown of where our tax money goes.

I'd like to know what proportion of my tax goes to the local council, how much to roads, how much to the ECB for the bailout, and how much goes to Irish Water etc. A sort of basic balance sheet for government spending. I want to actually see where my money is going, that is what will ease my skepticism about all these new charges.

That data is available on various government websites, but it's hardly accessible to the lay man.

You mean this?