Opting out of School Prayer

kylith

I Heart Internet wrote: »

But you spoke of him above as a "being" not an idea.

The idea of a being.

Neither of which is worth any respect, imo.

I occasionally call Joffrey Baratheon-Lannister a bastard too. Does that mean I think he exists?

eviltwin

The few times I have been in church I have never knelt, never had a problem with it from anyone either. Once people know your not religious they are mostly understanding.

robindch

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Uncovering one's head in a sacred space is for lay men in the western, christian tradition an act of reverence and respect for God.

So bishops wearing their hats in church aren't acting reverently?

I Heart Internet

robindch wrote: »

So bishops wearing their hats in church aren't acting reverently?

No

Edit: To clarrify....they are acting reverently by wearing their headgear. They are not not acting reverently.

gctest50

I Heart Internet wrote: »

But you spoke of him above as a "being" not an idea.

Same as Santa ?

daveohdave

No mention of the daughter I notice. Has she been consulted about it? Will it affect her?

endacl

kylith wrote: »

I occasionally call Joffrey Baratheon-Lannister a bastard too. Does that mean I think he exists?

I hope not. GOT SPOILER!

Spoiler

He died.

:pac:

kylith

endacl wrote: »

I hope not.

Boy, did he ever!

Nick Park

endacl wrote: »

I hope not.
:pac:

Flipping heck, thanks for the spoiler!

I've been recording series 4 so I can sit and watch it all at once.

Cabaal

daveohdave wrote: »

No mention of the daughter I notice. Has she been consulted about it? Will it affect her?

So parents should consult their kids before baptising them and entering them into a faith also? Great, I support this fully

magicbastarder

daveohdave wrote: »

No mention of the daughter I notice. Has she been consulted about it? Will it affect her?

should she also be consulted about whether she wants to believe in santa?

daveohdave

The thread is about school prayer. She should be consulted about how she will feel about being "different" in class, or at least advised how to deal with it. She's a person. How did you like being told to do things without consultation or discussion when you were a child?

thehairyone

alf66 wrote: »

Never really gave it much thought before, but i'm not Catholic, and during church services that I have attrended I tend to sit/stand when others do, and just leave out the whole praying bit I'd tend to back whatever your daughter feels most comfortable with

Most sensible post here. let your daughter make up her own mind whether she wants to pray or not.

Zubeneschamali

daveohdave wrote: »

No mention of the daughter I notice. Has she been consulted about it? Will it affect her?

It might, that's why you need to talk to the school.

If she just announces that she's not going to join in the prayers because Jesus is dead and God, like Santa, doesn't exist, she could get some negative reactions.

If the teacher is aware that she's going to sit out any prayers and treats that as normal, there's less risk the other kids will react.

Pherekydes

daveohdave wrote: »

How did you like being told to do things without consultation or discussion when you were a child?

Hated being indoctrinated and brainwashed into the "one true" religion.

Though, at least none of us were different. Couldn't have that, now could we?

Cabaal

daveohdave wrote: »

The thread is about school prayer. She should be consulted about how she will feel about being "different" in class, or at least advised how to deal with it. She's a person. How did you like being told to do things without consultation or discussion when you were a child?

The child was never baptised, won't be doing communion etc because of this. No prayer is the logical extention of this.

I think the vast majority of Catholic parents are very guilty of telling their kids what they'll be doing, you will go to mass, you will do communion etc.

How you are trying to demonise the op is laughable

daveohdave

How am I demonising them exactly? I asked a simple question: Has she been consulted about it? If she has and she's happy, well and good; if she hasn't, she should. Is that too complicated for you to understand, or do you simply deem 7 year olds too stupid or unimportant to consult on things that affect their lives?

Stereomaniac

I believe that the child should be asked what she wants to do, before anything else is done regarding the matter. However, I am in no way passing judgment on the original poster in this.

kylith

daveohdave wrote: »

How am I demonising them exactly? I asked a simple question: Has she been consulted about it? If she has and she's happy, well and good; if she hasn't, she should. Is that too complicated for you to understand, or do you simply deem 7 year olds too stupid or unimportant to consult on things that affect their lives?

Stereomaniac wrote: »

I believe that the child should be asked what she wants to do, before anything else is done regarding the matter. However, I am in no way passing judgment on the original poster in this.

Would you both be of the opinion that all the other children in the class should be similarly polled about whether or not they wish to partake in prayers and religion classes?

daveohdave

The other children in the class aren't part of the equation. Why would you even bring them up?

It's a simple question of a parent consulting their child. I can't understand why people find this so difficult to understand, or why they need to be so aggressive about the whole thing. Is it because you think I'm a catholic trying to defend church prayer?

kylith

daveohdave wrote: »

The other children in the class aren't part of the equation. Why would you even bring them up?

It's a simple question of a parent consulting their child. I can't understand why people find this so difficult to understand, or why they need to be so aggressive about the whole thing. Is it because you think I'm a catholic trying to defend church prayer?

Of course the other children are part of the equation. If you want this child to be asked whether she wants to take part in religious activities such as prayer then surely, in the interest of fairness, every other child should also be asked if they wish to take part in prayers. If you want one parent to consult their child then surely you would encourage every parent to consult their children. Why should one be consulted but not the others?

I don't give toss what religion you are or are not.

magicbastarder

daveohdave wrote: »

The other children in the class aren't part of the equation. Why would you even bring them up?

because you're the one concerned with the concept of treating kids differently.

if you want them to all be treated the same, catholic parents should be also consulting their young children about which major belief system they would like to align themselves with.

endacl

daveohdave wrote: »

How am I demonising them exactly? I asked a simple question: Has she been consulted about it? If she has and she's happy, well and good; if she hasn't, she should. Is that too complicated for you to understand, or do you simply deem 7 year olds too stupid or unimportant to consult on things that affect their lives?

At 7, the parents make the big decisions. Birthday party venues and suchlike? Kid gets a vote.

vitani

kylith wrote: »

Would you both be of the opinion that all the other children in the class should be similarly polled about whether or not they wish to partake in prayers and religion classes?

In an ideal world, all children would be consulted before a decision like that is made for them.

However, in the OP's situation, the daughter might be happy to just go along with chanting a few words twice a day even if the words don't mean anything to her. Better that than her sitting there every day feeling miserable or self-conscious - most children would probably be happy enough to not take part, but if a child is especially sensitive about being 'different', then the lesser of two evils might be to let her continue on as she's doing.

kylith

vitani wrote: »

In an ideal world, all children would be consulted before a decision like that is made for them.

However, in the OP's situation, the daughter might be happy to just go along with chanting a few words twice a day even if the words don't mean anything to her. Better that than her sitting there every day feeling miserable or self-conscious - most children would probably be happy enough to not take part, but if a child is especially sensitive about being 'different', then the lesser of two evils might be to let her continue on as she's doing.

But the OP is apparently unhappy with his daughter being taught to declare herself a sinner and beg for forgiveness in a religion that she is not part of.

I do find myself wondering how many Christian parents would be happy for their kids to join in Muslim prayers since it's only 'chanting a few words'.

vitani

kylith wrote: »

But the OP is apparently unhappy with his daughter being taught to declare herself a sinner and beg for forgiveness in a religion that she is not part of.

I do find myself wondering how many Christian parents would be happy for their kids to join in Muslim prayers since it's only 'chanting a few words'.

A quick google shows the morning prayer in schools is:

Father in heaven, you love me,
You're with me night and day,
I want you to love you always,
In all I do and say,
I'll try to please you, Father,
Bless me through the day. Amen.

So, nothing heavy-handed about sinning or asking forgiveness. While it's trite and saccharine, it's hardly likely to inflict much fear IMO.

And you'd have to ask one of them. My own daughter isn't baptised and if she ends up having to go to a Catholic school, with the exception of making the Sacraments, I'll be guided by her as to what level of participation she wants. Same if she was to end up in a Church of Ireland or Muslim school.

Pherekydes

daveohdave wrote: »

The other children in the class aren't part of the equation. Why would you even bring them up?

You brought up the word 'different' first. Different to whom?

TwoShedsJackson

vitani wrote: »

A quick google shows the morning prayer in schools is:

Father in heaven, you love me,
You're with me night and day,
I want you to love you always,
In all I do and say,
I'll try to please you, Father,
Bless me through the day. Amen.

So, nothing heavy-handed about sinning or asking forgiveness. While it's trite and saccharine, it's hardly likely to inflict much fear IMO.

Tone of that still goes back to the 'I'm unworthy, please don't smite me Lord' thing.

vitani

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Tone of that still goes back to the 'I'm unworthy, please don't smite me Lord' thing.

I don't disagree, but if the OP's daughter would be more comfortable saying the prayer with the rest of the class, then it's a relatively harmless, kid-friendly prayer that just goes on about God's love and being good. At this stage, the kids in the class probably don't even listen to the words as they say it.

I'm not trying to downplay how awful it would be to force someone to pray if they didn't want to - I was forced to go to Mass every Sunday for years, and it was horrible - but in this case, I would be guided by what she feels as she's the one who has to live with the consequences in school.

kylith

vitani wrote: »

A quick google shows the morning prayer in schools is:

Father in heaven, you love me,
You're with me night and day,
I want you to love you always,
In all I do and say,
I'll try to please you, Father,
Bless me through the day. Amen.

So, nothing heavy-handed about sinning or asking forgiveness. While it's trite and saccharine, it's hardly likely to inflict much fear IMO.

You don't find the bit in bold there a bit creepy? "I want to please you, invisible sky man"? If you don't opt her out of that prayer then she won't be opted out of the Hail Mary 'pray for us sinners', or the Our Father 'thy will be done...forgive us our trespasses...'.

It's about setting precedent from the outset. If she joins in the prayers so she's not different then she'll have to be in the religion class so she's not different. Then she'll need to be baptised so she can make her communion and confirmation so she's not different. Make a stand on the little things now and you won't have to make it on the big things later.