Unpopular GAA opinions you hold

ciarriaithuaidh

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Of course he's a top player.Its just he's one of those 'so underrated he's now overrated' ones. Generally consensus these days is putting him in the top 5 man markers of the last 20 yrs or so. I just dont have him that high myself, having at least the 4 mentioned + Darren Fay, Karl Lacey and Kieth Higgins ahead of him.

Marc O'Sé was a better corner back and all round footballer than either Lacey or Higgins. Darren Fay was a full back so hard to compare them.

STIG83

Michael Duignan talks up certain teams especially one team in hurling when he does commentary, very annoying at times.

Nidgeweasel

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

Marc O'Sé was a better corner back and all round footballer than either Lacey

Disagree strongly. Lacey is a superb footballer.

2 all stars at corner back (06.09), 2 all stars at centre half back (11,12).

I would imagine Karl will pick up another couple before he retires.

Prop Joe

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

Disagree strongly. Lacey is a superb footballer.

2 all stars at corner back (06.09), 2 all stars at centre half back (11,12).

I would imagine Karl will pick up another couple before he retires.

I think Marc and Lacey would be in the same league,Marc would be alot more skillful IMO.

I do think Tom Sullivan surpasses both as a corner back

CurryFlavoured

Marc O' Sé over Lacey and Higgins easily for me at corner back.

Lacey and Higgins are as much half backs as they are corner backs, they drive up the field as much as they defend. But when it comes to what a corner back SHOULD be doing (not many do it these days) - ie. keeping the corner forward quiet, then Marc is far better than Lacey and Higgins imo. Neither of Lacey or Higgins are outstanding man-markers, great players but not great at shutting out top class forwards like Marc is.

Nidgeweasel

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

Marc O' Sé over Lacey and Higgins easily for me at corner back.

Lacey and Higgins are as much half backs as they are corner backs, they drive up the field as much as they defend. But when it comes to what a corner back SHOULD be doing (not many do it these days) - ie. keeping the corner forward quiet, then Marc is far better than Lacey and Higgins imo. Neither of Lacey or Higgins are outstanding man-markers, great players but not great at shutting out top class forwards like Marc is.

That's absolute rubbish for a start.

Lacey is an exceptional man marker. He won the two all stars in 2006 and 2009 as a direct result of that. That was his entire role, to stick to whatever marquee forward was there.

Cannot believe I've just read that tripe. It's quite clear now that you actually haven't got the first clue about the player if you've used that as a stick to beat him with.

Lacey not being a good man marker :rolleyes: What next, Cluxton average at kickouts?

Deary me.

CurryFlavoured

A bit selective there, ey? I said they aren't outstanding man markers, I never said they weren't good at man-marking so get off your high horse. They are both fantastic players, but not as good at sticking to their man as O'Sé is.

A lot of recent teams tend to play one man marking corner back who takes the marquee forward and one corner back who is given more licence to drift up the field (e.g. Higgins, Lacey, Jonny Cooper, Ryan McMenamen etc.). Also, most teams tend to play a 2 man full forward line, so the more attacking corner back can drift forward and isn't as reliant on marking his man as the other guy because their are only 2 forwards inside (full back takes one man, 1 corner back takes the other). The way I see it, Lacey and Higgins are more adept at playing the role as the corner back that drifts up and back following the loose corner forward, whereas Marc has always been a pure man-marker who stands toe to toe with the marquee corner forward for the whole game.

Nidgeweasel

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

A bit selective there, ey? I said they aren't outstanding man markers, I never said they weren't good at man-marking so get off your high horse. They are both fantastic players, but not as good at sticking to their man as O'Sé is.

A lot of recent teams tend to play one man marking corner back who takes the marquee forward and one corner back who is given more licence to drift up the field (e.g. Higgins, Lacey, Jonny Cooper, Ryan McMenamen etc.). Also, most teams tend to play a 2 man full forward line, so the more attacking corner back can drift forward and isn't as reliant on marking his man as the other guy because their are only 2 forwards inside (full back takes one man, 1 corner back takes the other). The way I see it, Lacey and Higgins are more adept at playing the role as the corner back that drifts up and back following the loose corner forward, whereas Marc has always been a pure man-marker who stands toe to toe with the marquee corner forward for the whole game.

Lacey won 2 all stars as a result of doing exactly what you're saying O'Se does best before being moved out the field so your argument is done.

He's an exceptional man marker, an exceptional defender and a superb all round footballer.

CurryFlavoured

How is my argument 'done'? I think that Marc's a better man-marker, it's an opinion.

If Lacey was an exceptional man-marker he would have been kept in the FB line, same with Higgins who was moved out to half forward. As all round footballers maybe they're better than Marc, but as a man marking corner back Marc trumps both imo.

ciarriaithuaidh

In fairness, since McGuinness has come in in 2011, Lacey plays a completely different game to what he used to. He WAS a good corner back to be fair, and now he is more or less given free reign to carry ball out of defence and up to attack. He's as good as Marc or any other defender at that.

I think what curryflavoured might be trying to articulate, or at least what I would say is that right now it's a reasonable argument to say Marc has been a better defender than Lacey has..although these debates are best conducted after careers at county level are over. From 2003-2009 I think Marc, along with a few others, was absolutely top class over an extended period.

aveytare

Derry have produced some great defenders, Sean Marty Lockhart, Tony Scullion, Kieran McKeever. Marc O'Se's a very likeable player as well as being a great defender, I don't know if it's a stupid example but I remember he accidentally gave Stevie O'Neill a bit of a nick in the 2008 final and checked that O'Neill was ok.

Nidgeweasel

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

How is my argument 'done'? I think that Marc's a better man-marker, it's an opinion.

If Lacey was an exceptional man-marker he would have been kept in the FB line, same with Higgins who was moved out to half forward. As all round footballers maybe they're better than Marc, but as a man marking corner back Marc trumps both imo.

We've completely changed tact now Why 'waste' the obvious talent of someone like Lacey when with the system we now have we don't need to take on forward out of the game. We have a set up in place that we can have someone like Neil/Eamonn McGee marking someone of the calibre of Gooch or Brogan and be ok with that. There will be plenty of cover and a set up that their impact is going to be massively hindered anyway.

If for some reason we decided to go toe to toe again (suicide) I have no doubt Karl would be redeployed to the full back line with the sole intention of shutting someone down.

As it stands, the team do that more than well enough so we can utilise Karl elsewhere. He's a brilliant footballer as we all know so he can do that comfortably too.

You said:

Neither of Lacey or Higgins are outstanding man-markers,
great players but not great at shutting out top class forwards like Marc is.

Which is wrong. Lacey is an exceptional man marker and the proof of the same are the two all stars he won playing that specific role. Just because he's now out the field doing another job (brilliantly well) doesn't change that.

And I really like O'Se by the way (how could you not?) but Lacey is right up there with the very, very best of them as a defender no matter what way you want to analyse it.

Nidgeweasel

aveytare wrote: »

Derry have produced some great defenders, Sean Marty Lockhart, Tony Scullion, Kieran McKeever. Marc O'Se's a very likeable player as well as being a great defender, I don't know if it's a stupid example but I remember he accidentally gave Stevie O'Neill a bit of a nick in the 2008 final and checked that O'Neill was ok.

Sean Leo's not too shabby either.

keane2097

If Lacey isn't an exceptional man marker we must be using exceptional to mean like top five of all time or something, because he's definitely one of the very best I've ever seen the odd time he still does it.

CurryFlavoured

The 2 all star argument doesn't cut it for me though, you can't just look at that and say "Therefore, he is an exceptional man marker". In both those seasons Donegal were knocked out at the QFs, Marc O'Sé is consistently proven to mark the marquee forwards on the biggest stage. If we're using the all star argument we may as well add in John Keane, Charlie Harrison, Mick Foley etc. into the argument.

To wrap up, Lacey is a brilliant footballer. One of the best defenders of the last 10-15 years so stop getting defensive and acting like I'm slagging him off because I never was, but all I'm saying is that he's more of a half back/attacking corner back than a man marker. If we have a match tomorrow and I had to choose between Lacey, O'Sé and Higgins for who I wanted to man mark Gooch/Bernard Brogan/Colm O'Neill etc. type forward I'd choose O'Sé every day of the week. That's my (apparently unpopular) opinion.

Nidgeweasel

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

The 2 all star argument doesn't cut it for me though, you can't just look at that and say "Therefore, he is an exceptional man marker". In both those seasons Donegal were knocked out at the QFs, Marc O'Sé is consistently proven to mark the marquee forwards on the biggest stage. If we're using the all star argument we may as well add in John Keane, Charlie Harrison, Mick Foley etc. into the argument.

To wrap up, Lacey is a brilliant footballer. One of the best defenders of the last 10-15 years so stop getting defensive and acting like I'm slagging him off because I never was, but all I'm saying is that he's more of a half back/attacking corner back than a man marker. If we have a match tomorrow and I had to choose between Lacey, O'Sé and Higgins for who I wanted to man mark Gooch/Bernard Brogan/Colm O'Neill etc. type forward I'd choose O'Sé every day of the week. That's my (apparently unpopular) opinion.

I've used the All-Stars just to support his level of performance. Your point about O'Se playing at a higher level is a fair one and I feel given Karl is from Donegal I have to use those all star awards to support what I'm saying.

Again, in 2006 and 2009 he played exclusively as a man marker. His role was to take the oppositions marquee player and stop him. He did so. He did it so well he received an All star. Twice.

That's important here because it's not just my opinion of him as a Donegal person. It shows a certain level of performance in that particular role (which you don't believe he can do as well as someone else.) I contend that he can do. I feel those awards back up my argument about his performance level during those two seasons when Donegal had a (rare) prolonged stay in the Championship.

Going back to O'Sé and it is a very fair point. He was in a team getting to 6 AI's in a row whereas Donegal were on the beer. I can't counter that. Donegal didn't do it at the time and ergo it's not an argument which supports Lacey. In fact at the time Lacey was probably our only real shining light. (Others were on the way down, Murphy was just coming into it)

However

If we have a match tomorrow and I had to choose between Lacey, O'Sé and Higgins
for who I wanted to man mark Gooch/Bernard Brogan/Colm O'Neill etc

It'll come as no surprise that I'd be championing Lacey! I just feel he has that bit more about him.

Hulk Hands

As I said a few pages back, Marc O'Se is an excellent footballer but man marking is exactly where he falls down, if we're placing him amongst the very best. Both Lacey and Higgins are better man markers. I could entertain an argument that Marc's a better footballer than the other two. I think him and Higgins are close in that regard

Hulk Hands

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

To wrap up, Lacey is a brilliant footballer. One of the best defenders of the last 10-15 years so stop getting defensive and acting like I'm slagging him off because I never was, but all I'm saying is that he's more of a half back/attacking corner back than a man marker. If we have a match tomorrow and I had to choose between Lacey, O'Sé and Higgins for who I wanted to man mark Gooch/Bernard Brogan/Colm O'Neill etc. type forward I'd choose O'Sé every day of the week. That's my (apparently unpopular) opinion.

Its harping back to an argument from a few pages back but O'Se has struggled massively with a few of these marquee forwards in the past. I'm sure Lacey and Higgins have also but I havent seen it to the same extent as O'Se. In the interest of fairness I'd also have to acknowledge that Kerry and O'Se have played in higher profile and higher class games more regularly than the other two

CurryFlavoured

Funnily enough I think the exact opposite hulk hands. Marc has gotten the better of Bernard almost every time they went head to head, he always marks Corks main man and whether that was Kerrigan, O'Connor or O'Neill he generally has come out on top. Higgins for example has been made mince meat of by the Gooch, Marc has gone head to head with Gooch at club level (I know its not the same but its the only comparison I can make) and given as good as he's got.

Hulk Hands

I wouldn't say he's coming out on top of the Brogan battle at this stage. You can make plenty of those compaisons. Higgins has never done badly against Meehan yet O'Se got torn asunder against him. Higgins and Lacey have both fared far better against Colm McFadden also

aveytare

Who would you consider Kerry's best defender of the last decade or so, Hulk Hands? They've had a lot of good ones.

wicklowwonder

aveytare wrote: »

Who would you consider Kerry's best defender of the last decade or so, Hulk Hands? They've had a lot of good ones.

Moynihan has to be up there. Best defender in the game in my opinion.

Mr. Incognito

aveytare wrote: »

Who would you consider Kerry's best defender of the last decade or so, Hulk Hands? They've had a lot of good ones.

Tomas O Se.

Not even close. Moynihan would be the ten years before that

ProudDUB

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

Funnily enough I think the exact opposite hulk hands. Marc has gotten the better of Bernard almost every time they went head to head, he always marks Corks main man and whether that was Kerrigan, O'Connor or O'Neill he generally has come out on top. Higgins for example has been made mince meat of by the Gooch, Marc has gone head to head with Gooch at club level (I know its not the same but its the only comparison I can make) and given as good as he's got.

Not true. Bernard came out on top in their 2013, 2011 championship meetings and in their recent league encounters too. You'd have to go as far back as the infamous 'startled earwigs' quarter final of 2009, to find the last game that O'Se got the better of him. Bernard has only been playing since 2007, so there haven't been all that many meetings between the two of them over all.

ciarriaithuaidh

ProudDUB wrote: »

Not true. Bernard came out on top in their 2013, 2011 championship meetings and in their recent league encounters too. You'd have to go as far back as the infamous 'startled earwigs' quarter final of 2009, to find the last game that O'Se got the better of him. Bernard has only been playing since 2007, so there haven't been all that many meetings between the two of them over all.

Not 2011, thought Marc did fairly well that day. Kept BB to 0-2 which given the monopoly Dublin had on possession for most of 1st half and 10-15 mins of 2nd was good going.
Bernard definitely got the best of the battle last year in fairness, one of his best ever performances I would think, especially given he was struggling for scoring form prior to that game.
Incidentally Marc did not mark BB in 2009 1/4 final, Tom O'Sullivan did.

ProudDUB

Bernard scored 6 pts back in 2011. Granted only 2 were from play, but he was able to win a fair few frees off Marc, which counts just as well in my book. He kicked a real beaut from play in the 68th minute, that put us ahead for the first time since half time. He left Marc for absolute dust, when he kicked it. Did you see the league game down in Kilarney in February 2013? He absolutely roasted him there. And I do mean roasted. It was quite shocking to see actually. You just don't expect to ever see that happening to an O'Se, even if it is a meaningless league game.

ciarriaithuaidh

ProudDUB wrote: »

Bernard scored 6 pts back in 2011. Granted only 2 were from play, but he was able to win a fair few frees off Marc, which counts just as well in my book. He kicked a real beaut from play in the 68th minute, that put us ahead for the first time since half time. He left Marc for absolute dust, when he kicked it. Did you see the league game down in Kilarney in February 2013? He absolutely roasted him there. And I do mean roasted. It was quite shocking to see actually. You just don't expect to ever see that happening to an O'Se, even if it is a meaningless league game.

So, as you've just said there, BB (reigning POTY at that time remember) got 1 point from play in what 67 mins in 2011..and Marc DIDN'T have a good game? Kind of made the argument against yourself there a bit..

No idea why you're bringing the league game last year into it, was no part of the argument whatsoever..and yes, I was there and I remember it only too well. BB fairly dusted Marc in the semi final last year as I said and is a top class operator...no idea what the fuss about this is.

keane2097

I thought 2011 was fairly break even between them. Brogan was the reigning footballer of the year, he's not going to be in your pocket for 70 minutes like.

Nidgeweasel

I don't get the hype about Brogan. He's a brilliant footballer but I've never been as impressed with him as I have been people like the Gooch, Canavan, Stevie McDonell etc.

Might be the way he wears his socks!

CurryFlavoured

I thought Marc won in 11. Keeping the reigning POTY to 2 points from play is pretty telling. 2013 Bernard obviously won but Marc is about 33 years old at this stage.

keane2097

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

I don't get the hype about Brogan. He's a brilliant footballer but I've never been as impressed with him as I have been people like the Gooch, Canavan, Stevie McDonell etc.

Might be the way he wears his socks!

He's not at Gooch or Canavan's level but there are very few players you would compare favourably to them.

Brogan sits outside that absolute elite level but is still top class.

CurryFlavoured

Here's my opinion on Bernard...

He's a level below Gooch and Canavan, but in 2010 he had the best season I've ever seen from an inside forward - better than any single season Canavan or Gooch have had. He almost carried an out of sorts Dublin to an AI final, ripped apart numerous quality defenders and everything he touched within about 35m of goal went over the bar. Right or left foot, free kick tight on the sideline, it didn't matter. He was something else that season, he hasn't been able to repeat that form though. He showed glimpses of it last season in the League but injuries before championship stuttered his form.

Nidgeweasel

keane2097 wrote: »

He's not at Gooch or Canavan's level but there are very few players you would compare favourably to them.

Brogan sits outside that absolute elite level but is still top class.

That's fair enough I suppose.

As I said, I admire his ability but I don't rate him particularly highly. He was exceptional for a while about 4 years ago but nothing similar since.

aveytare

He still did it when it mattered last year I suppose.

Godge

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

That's fair enough I suppose.

As I said, I admire his ability but I don't rate him particularly highly. He was exceptional for a while about 4 years ago but nothing similar since.

Yawn, scoring 2-3 in an All-Ireland final and getting man of the match doesn't count, sure it doesn't?

3-19 in a championship where he was dogged with minor injuries, you wouldn't rate either.

Nidgeweasel

Godge wrote: »

Yawn, scoring 2-3 in an All-Ireland final and getting man of the match doesn't count, sure it doesn't?

3-19 in a championship where he was dogged with minor injuries, you wouldn't rate either.

I wouldn't rate 3-19, no. Not really.

He had a great game in the final last year, when it really mattered. Absolutely. That's what big players do, and he's a big player for Dublin. There's no disputing that.

Just in the grand scheme of things I'm not overly gone on him.

aveytare

Which marquee forwards would you have ahead of him? As a Donegal man do you think Michael Murphy is better?

Nidgeweasel

aveytare wrote: »

Which marquee forwards would you have ahead of him? As a Donegal man do you think Michael Murphy is better?

Yes.

Murphy is quite possibly the best we've ever had. And he's 24. By the time he is 30 it won't even be a debate. He is a once in a generation (probably more) type player.

davidfitz22

1: The MAYO4SAM campaign is the most painful thing to endure in the run up to the championships

2: GAA football is a minority sport in dublin so the "they have the biggest population" argument doesn't hold (especially when you consider kilkenny hurling)

3: Defensive ulster-style football is a legitimate strategy that works.

Nidgeweasel

davidfitz22 wrote: »

1: The MAYO4SAM campaign is the most painful thing to endure in the run up to the championships

It's pathetic. And Backwards.

"Oh wouldn't it be great if they won it. "

why?

"Ah cause they've lost so many, poor creters they deserve one."

If they were good enough to have won one, they would have. Only really in 96 where it was more unlucky than anything else. No medals handed out on sympathy. Feck off.

ciarriaithuaidh

davidfitz22 wrote: »

GAA football is a minority sport in dublin so the "they have the biggest population" argument doesn't hold (especially when you consider kilkenny hurling)

Anyone who uses the phrase "GAA football" loses the right to any opinion in these debates.

corny

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

I wouldn't rate 3-19, no. Not really.

He had a great game in the final last year, when it really mattered. Absolutely. That's what big players do, and he's a big player for Dublin. There's no disputing that.

Just in the grand scheme of things I'm not overly gone on him.

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

Yes.

Murphy is quite possibly the best we've ever had. And he's 24. By the time he is 30 it won't even be a debate. He is a once in a generation (probably more) type player.

You're not overly gone on big players having big games when it matters.

And you wouldn't rate 3-19. Murphy scored 1-3 from play in 2012.

robbiezero

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

It's pathetic. And Backwards.

"Oh wouldn't it be great if they won it. "

why?

"Ah cause they've lost so many, poor creters they deserve one."

If they were good enough to have won one, they would have. Only really in 96 where it was more unlucky than anything else. No medals handed out on sympathy. Feck off.

Agreed. Was that the year Colm Coyle equalized with a ball bouncing over the bar?
Every other year, they quite simply have not been good enough, no hard luck stories.

robbiezero

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

I thought Marc won in 11. Keeping the reigning POTY to 2 points from play is pretty telling. 2013 Bernard obviously won but Marc is about 33 years old at this stage.

I didn't think he did all that badly.
Brogan was absolutely magnificent on the day, I'm not sure anyone else would have done any better without doubling up on him. They had a great battle. Brogan came out on top, but it certainly wasn't a rout. O'Se won some great ball too.

Fr Tod Umptious

davidfitz22 wrote: »

1: The MAYO4SAM campaign is the most painful thing to endure in the run up to the championships

2: GAA football is a minority sport in dublin so the "they have the biggest population" argument doesn't hold (especially when you consider kilkenny hurling)

3: Defensive ulster-style football is a legitimate strategy that works.

It was grand in 2013, but no need for it in 2014, come up with something new.

I agree with you on the Ulster style too, it may not be pretty but it can win games that teams would not normally win.

robbiezero

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

It was grand in 2013, but no need for it in 2014, come up with something new.

I agree with you on the Ulster style too, it may not be pretty but it can win games that teams would not normally win.

I have great admiration for the teams that do not resort to this. The Monaghan - Armagh game last weekend was one of the worst I have ever seen.

Nidgeweasel

robbiezero wrote: »

Agreed. Was that the year Colm Coyle equalized with a ball bouncing over the bar?
Every other year, they quite simply have not been good enough, no hard luck stories.

Yes it was. Liam McHale was sent off in the replay after that big brawl.

They'll argue black is white that they were the better team in 2012. :D

corny wrote: »

You're not overly gone on big players having big games when it matters.

And you wouldn't rate 3-19. Murphy scored 1-3 from play in 2012.

Where have I said that. I've given Brogan credit for doing what he did. He decided an All Ireland final. Can't have any arguments about that. I'm just saying I'm not overly taken with him.

Murphy was half fit and was only coming into his stride for the AI series. Murphy is a better player but I'd imagine his scoring returns have diminished significantly since 2011. He plays a different role now. A better comparison of player would probably be McFadden who is a score getter in the pure sense of the word, as is Brogan.

Brogan is better.

Godge

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

I wouldn't rate 3-19, no. Not really.

He had a great game in the final last year, when it really mattered. Absolutely. That's what big players do, and he's a big player for Dublin. There's no disputing that.

Just in the grand scheme of things I'm not overly gone on him.

It was 3-10 from play, the highest from play in the country (joint with Martin Dunne from Cavan) and he didn't even get to play the extra games in the qualifiers.

He was also top scorer in the League in 2013 with 2-38.

Brogan consistently appears at the top of the scoring charts when you look at scores from play only. Too many commentators are caught up in the overall scoring total which includes scores from frees. It leads them to laud fairly ordinary players as great.

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

Yes.

Murphy is quite possibly the best we've ever had. And he's 24. By the time he is 30 it won't even be a debate. He is a once in a generation (probably more) type player.

A case in point. How good is Murphy when you take away his contribution from placed balls.

robbiezero

Godge wrote: »

It was 3-10 from play, the highest from play in the country (joint with Martin Dunne from Cavan) and he didn't even get to play the extra games in the qualifiers.

He was also top scorer in the League in 2013 with 2-38.

Brogan consistently appears at the top of the scoring charts when you look at scores from play only. Too many commentators are caught up in the overall scoring total which includes scores from frees. It leads them to laud fairly ordinary players as great.




A case in point. How good is Murphy when you take away his contribution from placed balls.

I would rate Brogan, Gooch and Canavan higher than Murphy. McFadden in 2012 was better than him also.
In time he may be one of the all-time greats of the game, but for me, not yet by a good way.

Prop Joe

Paul Flynn is arguably the best forward in the country But

Martin Dunne,Sean McCormick and Lorcan Mulvey all outscored him last year,So does that make them better forwards? :rolleyes: