Black Economy

Coat22

Will a government ever have the balls to stand up and tackle the issue of the black economy in Ireland as a means to raising extra revenue / reducing welfare costs?

I suspect the answer is never. Sure they will all make sound bites and release the occasional story about how one criminal was caught drawing welfare while living in Dalkey and holidaying in the Seychelles which they know will draw the praise of the masses reading their Evening Herald but when will they get serious about it??

I pay 52% on every penny extra I dare earn over €41,800. This is a joint income as my wife is not working. Before people jump up and down about how wealthy that makes me €41,800 equates to a net wage of €2,760 a month. Out of that has to come mortgage payments (luckily just under €1,500 a month) and all the other bills life throws at you (thankfully no car loans). If I have the drive to work harder (which I do) and earn a bonus for my efforts I will take home 48% of what I’m paid. I’ve learnt to live with this.

However what I am struggling with is that while I’m working 60 hours a week to earn a small bonus which might pay for new blinds, a bit of paint for the walls or maybe even a short holiday (and contribute more to the tax revenue of the state) a good chunk of my neighbours stuff their back pockets with nixxers and moan at having to pay water charges. Others work away happily on building sites etc (yes there are still some) and yet are down the post office on Saturday morning collecting their dole.

The next thing on the horizon I am quite sure will be means tested child benefit. In such a scenario I would surely lose the €280 a month we receive for raising our kids to contribute to paying off the national debt in 20 years time. My neighbours with their “official” incomes being short of mine would continue to get theirs (and probably some family income supplement on top of that). Marxism would be complete and their kids will flourish as mine go without.

What I would like to see is a government getting serious about tax evasion / welfare fraud. Launch a campaign. Have a confidential number and encourage reporting. Hire (yes hire!) staff to go after it (will pay for itself in the first week). 20 years ago everyone thought insurance fraud was acceptable because the insurance companies were screwing everyone. These days they advertise for whistle blowers and it is deemed as a criminal activity (which it always was). The potential is enormous. Much bigger than any water charges or TV licence evaders. But of course it would be political suicide as the masses revolt about how they are taking “their money”. Let them pay 52% tax on their nixxers, level the playing field and then look at means testing child benefit.

But it will never happen.

BMJD

cool story bro

suicide_circus

Report those you know to be working while claiming full dole or else dont bother complaining.

Renegade Mechanic

EXCUSE ME. Its "coloured economy" you racist bastard!

SEPT 23 1989

I think you will find that The State is being absolutely ruthless with people claiming or trying to defraud anything from them at the moment

Valetta

https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/secure/ReportFraud.aspx

It took me approx. 5 seconds to find the above link.

OP, have you reported your neighbours?

If not, then you are a big part of the problem.

BMJD

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

EXCUSE ME. Its "coloured economy" you racist bastard!

WRONG!!! It's "all the same under the skin economy" :rolleyes:

Pinch Flat

Want to know the answer? Send me €100 cash and I'll tell you. If it has to go through the books, €123 incl VAT @ 23%.

waraf

It's almost impossible to eradicate though because we're all full of morals until it comes time to shell out our hard earned cash for them.

For example, a good mate of mine is a carpenter and most of his work comprises of small jobs around the town he lives in. He tried to go legit and add VAT to every job he did but he found that he was losing a lot of work cause his competitors were offering to do the same jobs VAT free (~20% saving to the customer). Very few people are going to turn down a 20% reduction on a small carpentry job

tobsey

I agree completely OP. We just got work done on our house which included plumbing, electrics, painting and decorating and general building work. Every single quote we got was under the condition that it was a cash price. If we wanted to go by the book it would be extra to cover the VAT and presumably their declared income for tax purposes.

I do have sympathy for some of these people who have had their incomes decimated and probably are struggling, but the fact is every single penny I earn is recorded and taxable. It should be the same for all.

tobsey

waraf wrote: »

It's almost impossible to eradicate though because we're all full of morals until it comes time to shell out our hard earned cash for them.

For example, a good mate of mine is a carpenter and most of his work comprises of small jobs around the town he lives in. He tried to go legit and add VAT to every job he did but he found that he was losing a lot of work cause his competitors were offering to do the same jobs VAT free (~20% saving to the customer). Very few people are going to turn down a 20% reduction on a small carpentry job

The home improvement tax scheme will go some way to improve this but the problem is it only becomes worth people's while to use it when they are spending thousands. You don't get the tax credits until 2015 either so people would much rather pay 200 quid today than 240 and wait until next year to get the 40 back in tax credits.

It's different if you're paying 20,000 out and financing it with a loan because then at least the tax credits will soften the blow of the loan repayments.

It's no use to small independent contractors like your friend though.

The Backwards Man

A registered contractor doing a job off the books isn't black economy.

Very little wiggle room for the black economy these days, it's consigned to the history books mostly.

SEPT 23 1989

tobsey wrote: »

I agree completely OP. We just got work done on our house which included plumbing, electrics, painting and decorating and general building work. Every single quote we got was under the condition that it was a cash price. If we wanted to go by the book it would be extra to cover the VAT and presumably their declared income for tax purposes.

I do have sympathy for some of these people who have had their incomes decimated and probably are struggling, but the fact is every single penny I earn is recorded and taxable. It should be the same for all.

what good is a big VAT receipt to you if you are a PAYE worker?

tobsey

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

what good is a big VAT receipt to you if you are a PAYE worker?

It's no use to me except that I know the contractor is declaring the income.

SEPT 23 1989

tobsey wrote: »

It's no use to me except that I know the contractor is declaring the income.

so you want to pay VAT even though you have no way of reclaiming it or offsetting it?

kippy

waraf wrote: »

It's almost impossible to eradicate though because we're all full of morals until it comes time to shell out our hard earned cash for them.

For example, a good mate of mine is a carpenter and most of his work comprises of small jobs around the town he lives in. He tried to go legit and add VAT to every job he did but he found that he was losing a lot of work cause his competitors were offering to do the same jobs VAT free (~20% saving to the customer). Very few people are going to turn down a 20% reduction on a small carpentry job

This is the thing I suppose.
Ultimately those working in the "black economy" are cheaper to use than those that aren't.
For those of us that are "above board" with our affairs, getting work done can cost a fair chunk of our salaries, if we can get it cheaper then generally we are ok to turn a blind eye to it.
Were it not for the black economy a lot of these jobs would cost a lot more for us to do.

Thats not excusing it, just pointing out why a black economy is a part and parcel of any economy.

tobsey

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

so you want to pay VAT even though you have no way of reclaiming it or offsetting it?

No of course I don't want to pay it. Similarly I don't want to pay 52% of some of my income in taxes, but that's the way it is.

Joe prim

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

EXCUSE ME. Its "coloured economy" you racist bastard!

Err..."new Irish" economy, if you don't mind.:D

wilser

OP start cutting grass or washing windows at the weekend then you get to keep 100% of what you earn

Lenin Skynard

Coat22 wrote: »

my neighbours

You could always throw up some net curtains while you save up for the blinds OP. It might help with the compulsion to snoop out the window.

Specialun

Their own parties/Friends are as corrupt as them....

Renegade Mechanic

The Backwards Man wrote: »

A registered contractor doing a job off the books isn't black economy.

Very little wiggle room for the black economy these days, it's consigned to the history books mostly.

Its downsized naturally as more things have become allowed/widely available in the country. There was a time not ages ago when condoms had to be smuggled in! But Its still very much there if youre up to no good:D

Coat22

Right - anoybody on this board thats not a student?

Valetta wrote: »

[It took me approx. 5 seconds to find the above link.QUOTE]

Well done you - of course I can do it myself (who's to say I haven't) but I am talking about a public awarness campaign. Make it clear to Bill & Betty who are struggling to pay water charges etc that actually is partly because Steve, the lovely lad from next door who does all his jobs for cash isn’t paying his way. Make it as socially unacceptable for lads who are known to be on dole turing up for a few pints in their work close as it now is for them to then hop in the car and drive home locked.

The Germans (who some reason we try not to be like) would sell their own mother up the river if they thought it meant they were paying more in tax because she was avoiding it. We should be doing the same rather than just complaining about water/property/bin/tv charges.

Coat22

Right - anoybody on this board thats not a student?

"It took me approx. 5 seconds to find the above link"

Well done you - of course I can do it myself (who's to say I haven't) but I am talking about a public awarness campaign. Make it clear to Bill & Betty who are struggling to pay water charges etc that actually is partly because Steve, the lovely lad from next door who does all his jobs for cash isn’t paying his way. Make it as socially unacceptable for lads who are known to be on dole turing up for a few pints in their work close as it now is for them to then hop in the car and drive home locked.

The Germans (who some reason we try not to be like) would sell their own mother up the river if they thought it meant they were paying more in tax because she was avoiding it. We should be doing the same rather than just complaining about water/property/bin/tv charges.

Coat22

Stupid IE 1.0

SEPT 23 1989

Coat22 wrote: »

Right - anoybody on this board thats not a student?

"It took me approx. 5 seconds to find the above link"

Well done you - of course I can do it myself (who's to say I haven't) but I am talking about a public awarness campaign. Make it clear to Bill & Betty who are struggling to pay water charges etc that actually is partly because Steve, the lovely lad from next door who does all his jobs for cash isn’t paying his way. Make it as socially unacceptable for lads who are known to be on dole turing up for a few pints in their work close as it now is for them to then hop in the car and drive home locked.

The Germans (who some reason we try not to be like) would sell their own mother up the river if they thought it meant they were paying more in tax because she was avoiding it. We should be doing the same rather than just complaining about water/property/bin/tv charges.

And partly because Stefan the lovely bondholder from Stuttgart was paid

Coat22

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

And partly because Stefan the lovely bondholder from Stuttgart was paid

So this excuses Steve from not paying his way? You're what? 25? Coem back to me when you have a job, a mortgage and a family in 10 years time and see how much you care about bondholders etc then.

Nobody working in a business where cash based work is available is declaring all their income.

Anybody saying they would do any different in the same situation is a fool or is lying.

Coat22

Ronan Raspy Sunlight wrote: »

Nobody working in a business where cash based work is available is declaring all their income.

Anybody saying they would do any different in the same situation is a fool or is lying.

Agreed – but in any other grown up country the authorities would at least me making an effort to sniff it out

The Backwards Man

Ronan Raspy Sunlight wrote: »

Nobody working in a business where cash based work is available is declaring all their income.

Anybody saying they would do any different in the same situation is a fool or is lying.

Heh, some us are over declaring because the tax man would never believe we could survive on so little.

Valetta

Coat22 wrote: »

Right - anoybody on this board thats not a student?

"It took me approx. 5 seconds to find the above link"

Well done you - of course I can do it myself (who's to say I haven't) but I am talking about a public awarness campaign.

But have you?

Or are you just another one who want's someone else to do it for you.

Coat22

Coat22 wrote: »

Agreed – but in any other grown up country the authorities would at least me making an effort to sniff it out

There is no country in the world where people are not doing nixers for cash and putting it straight into a drawer in their bedroom.

Just to point out I'm not referring to people on the dole who are working on the sly this is a different situation altogether.

Coat22

Ronan Raspy Sunlight wrote: »

There is no country in the world where people are not doing nixers for cash and putting it straight into a drawer in their bedroom.

Just to point out I'm not referring to people on the dole who are working on the sly this is a different situation altogether.

Sorry its not completely different – both are screwing the system. One is taking money that they are not entitled to and the other is not paying what they should – both are screwing the system but there is a common attitude out there like this that people doing cash jobs are somehow less of a thief than a dole swindler or a common bag snatcher.

When Begley got done for tax fraud on his garlic there was outrage – but as the insurance adds says “they are putting their hand in your pocket”

The Diabolical Monocle

Split the dole into four weekly payments.


Assign next collection time on each day of payment.
They must be at the post office within a time bracket of 4 hours.


i.e -joe soap gets his 47 euro on monday (188/4) with a ticket saying 'your next collection time is ..... [randomly selected] ....(tuesday between 2 and 6 pm)'.


This way if someone is working and collecting they will not be able to agree regular work hours with their employer. Nor will they be able to predict and tell the boss in advance.

When it comes to interviews for legitimate jobs even if its the same day theres a 4 hour window of opportunity or you can just explain to the potential employer.

MadYaker

Coat22 wrote: »

Agreed – but in any other grown up country the authorities would at least me making an effort to sniff it out

Ever heard the saying "don't rock the boat"? Anyway most people dodging tax like that are small business owners most of whom have gotten heavily battered in the recession so I don't harbor too much animosity for them.

Id be more interested in targeting the lifelong social welfare recipients who've never worked a day in their lives because they couldn't be arsed and the state caters too their every need, house, dole, medical cards, child benefit etc and all with the taxes were paying.

The Diabolical Monocle

Also there should be rewards for reporting people who are abusing the system. If they get convicted you get a graded reward based on the amount they were stealing.

The Diabolical Monocle

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Also there should be rewards for reporting people who are abusing the system. If they get convicted you get a graded reward based on the amount they were stealing.

Nothing worse than a rat!

Coat22

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Also there should be rewards for reporting people who are abusing the system. If they get convicted you get a graded reward based on the amount they were stealing.

Great idea

SEPT 23 1989

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Also there should be rewards for reporting people who are abusing the system. If they get convicted you get a graded reward based on the amount they were stealing.

surely the self satisfaction of being a model citizen would be reward enough

The Diabolical Monocle

Ronan Raspy Sunlight wrote: »

Nothing worse than a rat!

well .... theres skangers for a start.

The Diabolical Monocle

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

surely the self satisfaction of being a model citizen would be reward enough

What could be more poetic than the state helping the citizen in return for the citizen helping the state, ahhh brings little a tricolor tear to my eye.

Bog Standard User

reduce taxes on items such as vat, fuel, tobacco & alcohol and there wouldnt be much of a need for a black economy

Hootanany

Coat22 wrote: »

Will a government ever have the balls to stand up and tackle the issue of the black economy in Ireland as a means to raising extra revenue / reducing welfare costs?

I suspect the answer is never. Sure they will all make sound bites and release the occasional story about how one criminal was caught drawing welfare while living in Dalkey and holidaying in the Seychelles which they know will draw the praise of the masses reading their Evening Herald but when will they get serious about it??

I pay 52% on every penny extra I dare earn over €41,800. This is a joint income as my wife is not working. Before people jump up and down about how wealthy that makes me €41,800 equates to a net wage of €2,760 a month. Out of that has to come mortgage payments (luckily just under €1,500 a month) and all the other bills life throws at you (thankfully no car loans). If I have the drive to work harder (which I do) and earn a bonus for my efforts I will take home 48% of what I’m paid. I’ve learnt to live with this.

However what I am struggling with is that while I’m working 60 hours a week to earn a small bonus which might pay for new blinds, a bit of paint for the walls or maybe even a short holiday (and contribute more to the tax revenue of the state) a good chunk of my neighbours stuff their back pockets with nixxers and moan at having to pay water charges. Others work away happily on building sites etc (yes there are still some) and yet are down the post office on Saturday morning collecting their dole.

The next thing on the horizon I am quite sure will be means tested child benefit. In such a scenario I would surely lose the €280 a month we receive for raising our kids to contribute to paying off the national debt in 20 years time. My neighbours with their “official” incomes being short of mine would continue to get theirs (and probably some family income supplement on top of that). Marxism would be complete and their kids will flourish as mine go without.

What I would like to see is a government getting serious about tax evasion / welfare fraud. Launch a campaign. Have a confidential number and encourage reporting. Hire (yes hire!) staff to go after it (will pay for itself in the first week). 20 years ago everyone thought insurance fraud was acceptable because the insurance companies were screwing everyone. These days they advertise for whistle blowers and it is deemed as a criminal activity (which it always was). The potential is enormous. Much bigger than any water charges or TV licence evaders. But of course it would be political suicide as the masses revolt about how they are taking “their money”. Let them pay 52% tax on their nixxers, level the playing field and then look at means testing child benefit.

But it will never happen.

I think we should start with the top on multiple Pensions first then let it trickle down.

Coat22

Hootanany wrote: »

I think we should start with the top on multiple Pensions first then let it trickle down.

Why? These will be taxed when the person draws them down and are already subject to the pensions levy

Hootanany

Coat22 wrote: »

Why? These will be taxed when the person draws them down and are already subject to the pensions levy

The Politicians not proper people

Cuddlesworth

A cashless society would remove the black economy. Would be interesting to live in as a PAYE worker or above board self employed.

JC01

Coat22 wrote: »

Sorry its not completely different – both are screwing the system. One is taking money that they are not entitled to and the other is not paying what they should – both are screwing the system but there is a common attitude out there like this that people doing cash jobs are somehow less of a thief than a dole swindler or a common bag snatcher.”

I'd take serious issue with this. Hypotethically speaking, if I worked 40+ hours a week and payed ludicrous taxes on my earnings each and every week (as I do) then what the hell gives this wonderful country of ours the right to take half of what I earn by spending a Friday night freezing under a neighbours car for an effective rate of 5e per hour?

And not only that but then to be told that I am as bad as a dole swindler or a common bag snatcher for my efforts?

It is nobody's business what I do with my spare time. If I choose to use it to put in the graft and make myself a few extra euro than that's my right. Perhaps you would prefer I jack the job, sell the house and sign on? Sure il have a new house handed to me in no time along with a medical card and the rest all thanks to that sap working away paying his taxes.

Unfortunatly we don't live in some utopia that Sinn Fein would have us beleive where tax is collected for the good of every citizen. Taxes are pissed away left right and centre by incompetent fools in government and end up being used to house, clothe and feed the dredges of society who copped on many moons ago that this is not a country that rewards hard work. So no thank you id be inclined to keep my extra 30e and spend it on my own family.

323

Think it's probably the only part of the economy that is still working, keeping money circulating around communities that would otherwise have shut down completely, all be on the dole or have emigrated.

Bog Standard User wrote: »

reduce taxes on items such as vat, fuel, tobacco & alcohol and there wouldnt be much of a need for a black economy

Reduce taxes...Period!

Much of the black economy would disappear. Ireland proved that in the last recession, and was applauded for it worldwide, reducing tax's removes much of the incentive to avoid payment and increases the tax take.

Heard a discussion on the radio about this time last year estimation that 19% of the economy was black. Not just your painter, plumber, trades etc. but doctors, dentist, solicitors, estate agents.. the works.

Interesting link here, from last year.

http://trueeconomics.blogspot.no/2013/11/irelands-black-economy-sunday-times.html

What they call the shadow economy estimated at EUR20 billion/year. With tax losses way exceeding all the austerity cuts.

kippy

323 wrote: »

Think it's probably the only part of the economy that is still working, keeping money circulating around communities that would otherwise have shut down completely, all be on the dole or have emigrated.



Reduce taxes...Period!

Much of the black economy would disappear. Ireland proved that in the last recession, and was applauded for it worldwide, reducing tax's removes much of the incentive to avoid payment and increases the tax take.

Heard a discussion on the radio about this time last year estimation that 19% of the economy was black. Not just your painter, plumber, trades etc. but doctors, dentist, solicitors, estate agents.. the works.

Interesting link here, from last year.

http://trueeconomics.blogspot.no/2013/11/irelands-black-economy-sunday-times.html

What they call the shadow economy estimated at EUR20 billion/year. With tax losses way exceeding all the austerity cuts.

You think there wasnt a black economy in the 'boom'? If there wasnt it wasnt because of low taxes.

Tail Docker

As an example, I sold one of my vans - there was no way it was going to pass a DOE without a lot of work. A lad I know bought it. I'll contrast his existence with mine.

Me, I wouldn't chance a van with no doe, it would need tax too, and when I am driving it, my mileage is getting recorded, whatever I earn is getting logged and goes straight into the company account - no wiggles, dodges or schnides, all taxes due are paid, including VAT. I get paid a wage by the company, on which there's tax, prsi, blah, blah. I pay all my own bills like all the other regular joes, house, tv, car whatever - so far so normal.

Lad who bought van, he rolls different. He's been driving it now for a couple of years, untroubled by doe tests, road-tax or white diesel. These are seemingly optional. He uses it to work out of, full time, doing nixers. He is also drawing the dole, as is his partner, who also works pretty much full time. They rent a house belonging to another lad I know, and receive €650 a month rent-supplement, leaving them to pay the additional €50... It's a nice, big, detached house. They also get 2 lots of childrens allowance. She drives a nice big car too btw. But officially, they don't live together, as then she wouldn't get the single parents allowance and all that entails..fcuk me, does it ever end??

Black economy? Looks to be doing alright as it happens. Are they alone in this? Are they feck, I know loads others doing the same. I believe that fires me smoothly into the category of "one of the mugs". BTW, I firmly believe that - by playing by the rules and paying what's due, you are one of the mugs. Literally.

sock puppet

The Backwards Man wrote: »

A registered contractor doing a job off the books isn't black economy.

Very little wiggle room for the black economy these days, it's consigned to the history books mostly.

Surely the trade in drugs and prostitution is bigger if anything.