central heating help needed

tomdempsey200

some larger domestic jobs i worked on a separate company would supply and design the heating system

you would be supplied with data sheets and printed wiring diagrams etc

it's the proper job on any decent project

Tuco88

IMO there the most dangerous system to have in a house, that is unless you have a excellent plumber that installs it correctly. I was told by a very good plumber to stay away from replacing a valve(just the Solenoid) on any system that has a pump or MV on a gravity circuit. He told me the amount of systems that are joined incorrectly is frighting, the pressurized and un-pressured system with no heat sink for the stove so on and no 3Bar SVR for the stove as a fall back.. The system links is apparently a good set up from what I hear anyway.

I have come across more complex heating systems in large modern houses than systems on a large Industrial plants I have been on ha.

Sir Arthur Daley

Tuco88 wrote: »

I was told by a very good plumber to stay away from replacing a valve(just the Solenoid) on any system that has a pump or MV on a gravity circuit.

I would question this very good plumbers advice.

Tuco88

Im open to your views please indulge? His point was there should be no or potential obstructions to a gravity circuit, I think it makes a perfect point.

What would happen to a electrician who worked on a inherently dangerious heating system that went kaboom after he/she left.

Sir Arthur Daley

Tuco88 wrote: »

Im open to your views please indulge?

I owe you an apology, im sorry i took up your post up wrong, yes we are singing off the same hymn sheet.
I read your post too fast, if one was to be called to a job where a restriction like a pump or motoriesd valve on a gravity circuit one would have to stress the dangers of it along with immediate recommendations to rectify it.

beanie10

greenore wrote: »

hi,

system has 2xCH & 1xHW Zones

system also has solid fuel back boiler

system has 2x CH Motorized valves

Garage = Oil Boiler & Pump (No over-run)


Hotpress = Cylinder, 2 motorized valves, CH circulating pump & Back boiler pump, cylinder stat, back boiler stat

so there is 3 zone time clock (2x CH & 1xHW)
2 CH room stats


what i need to happen:
CH1 turned on = fire Boiler + pump(garage) & Circulating pump (hotpress) & open corresponding "MV"
CH2 turned on = fire Boiler + pump(garage) & Circulating pump (hotpress) & open corresponding "MV"
HW turned on = fire Boiler + pump(garage)
Back boiler when lit = opens both CH motorized valves & fires Circulating pump(hotpress)

I need a wiring diagram for this system

if you could be so kind to help me out i would be forever grateful

Greenore to answer your question. First you cannot have any restrictions on solid fuel circuit so solid fuel cannot operate MV.
The solid fuel will will primarily heat hot water then when stove reaches temp the pipe stat brings on pump which is located between rads and MV (plumber will advise on this).
The solid fuel pipe stat is central to this operation. Assuming you have wiring sorted from each channel of time clock to its stat and MV.
The common of solid fuel pipe stat gets a permanent feed. The closed contact of same pipe stat at 60deg then feeds the solid fuel pump (when stove reaches 60 stove pump comes on).
The other contact of pipe stat joins onto all grey wires of motorised valves. All oranges of motorised valves are joined together along with switch wire to oil burner and oul burner pump.
So if you turn on any onw channel of heating its mv will open and oil burner will come on. If you should light the stove and it reaches temp the contacts on pipe stat will change over ie bring on stove pump and kill power to oil burner at same time. If I get a min tomorrow ill draw up a diagram.

Sir Arthur Daley

gary71 wrote: »

What would happen to a electrician who worked on a inherently dangerious heating system that went kaboom after he/she left.

Give an example, an incorrect piped system wired to plumbers spec or incorrectly wired system to correct plumbers pipe spec?

Sir Arthur Daley

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Give an example, an incorrect piped system wired to plumbers spec or incorrectly wired system to correct plumbers spec?

Replacing a defective cylinder stat on a hot water cylinder being fed by a stove or solar that has no blending valve and a child gets badly burnt due to the excessive hot water Temperture, which is a real risk with most solar/stove installations.

Splitting one trade in to two separate trades can have its problems which at times are only a problem when their a problem.

Sir Arthur Daley

gary71 wrote: »

Replacing a defective cylinder stat on a hot water cylinder being fed by a stove or solar that has no blending valve

Are you suggesting one should replace if ones sees a stat that is controlling the temperature input from solid fuel or solar?

Sir Arthur Daley

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Are you suggesting one should replace if ones sees a stat that is controlling the temperature input from solid fuel or solar?

I'm not suggesting anything.

As the one trade is split in to two and electricians are only working on one aspect I'm wondering on liability when the clip board warriors come looking for blood after a issue.

As most cylinders are not fitted with Temperture at tap in mind and ye are working on them after the installer is well gone you may find yourself in the hot seat as the last man there.

I will make a suggestion now, go and sit a G3 safety course (a legal requirement for sparks in the UK)which will help identify these very real issues to protect yourselves from bad working practises.

2011

gary71 wrote: »

And I'm not trolling, I was used to a environment where sparks rarely wire a domestic heating system, heating engineers do, so the added issues that i come across between the separate trades can be very interesting:D

My personal view is that this electrical work should be carried out by a qualified electrician because the electrician will:

1) certify the electrical installation.
2) be the one that is ultimatley responsible for all electrical work.
3) be the one that possesses the necessary test equipment and has been trained to use it.

Plumbing for plumbers and electrical for electricians.

However as the plumber that takes that has selected, sized and designed heating the system this is the person that should inform the electrician of the electrical requirements from a safety as well as from a controls perspective. Ultimately the plumber takes ownership of the heating system, not the electrician.
Commissioning / testing of the system should be a joint exercise IMHO.

tomdempsey200

what could a heating engineer do now with restricted works?

he'd prob have to get registered


have they closed off the loophole allowing non electricIan's to register?

Heating engineers are UK tradesmen trained in all aspects of plumbing and electrics of heating installation as there is a great benefit in fully understanding the environment your working in and the level of control your trying to achieve with the electrical components.

RGIs are have proved their electrical competency with heating installations and allowed to do electrical work from the spur out.

tomdempsey200

none of them have test instruments or copy of wiring rules

the RGI drawings from the gas regs for main bonding as posted here don't comply with the wiring rules

and the test procedure for gas boilers is hazardous and a load of nonsense

tomdempsey200

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

none of them have test instruments or copy of wiring rules

the RGI drawings from the gas regs for main bonding as posted here don't comply with the wiring rules

and the test procedure for gas boilers is hazardous and a load of nonsense

But yet they proved competence and can wire from the spur:eek:


Electrical safety checks serve a purpose and engineers are safer than when there were no checks, Why don't you drop a complainant to RECI who are responsible for the registration of RGIs, you'll get no complaint from me for improving safety.

Tuco88

No problem. Is there any exceptions of where it is allowed a pump on a gravity circuit lets say a long run? probably not tho even with some safety gear before the pump the risk of a power failure is to risky.

Tuco88

gary71 wrote: »

Replacing a defective cylinder stat on a hot water cylinder being fed by a stove or solar that has no blending valve and a child gets badly burnt due to the excessive hot water Temperture, which is a real risk with most solar/stove installations.

Splitting one trade in to two separate trades can have its problems which at times are only a problem when their a problem.

Sorry I am a little lost on this one If I go to replace a damaged cylinder stat fine, I replace it with a new one and set it at 60 Degrees lets say, and the stat fails to operate water goes above 60 how does a bleeding valve have anything to do with the child getting burned or preventing it? I thought the bleeding valve was to let out trapped air in the system usually during commissioning?

Tuco88

Tuco88 wrote: »

Sorry I am a little lost on this one If I go to replace a damaged cylinder stat fine, I replace it with a new one and set it at 60 Degrees lets say, and the stat fails to operate water goes above 60 how does a bleeding valve have anything to do with the child getting burned or preventing it? I thought the bleeding valve was to let out trapped air in the system usually during commissioning?

It's like being a car engine specialist but not knowing anything about breaks and the car you just worked on hit a tree because you didn't know the breaks had gone.

Plumbers are less likely to spot when electricians leaves a Dangerious heating installation without proper training and electricians are less likely to spot when a plumber leaves a Dangerious heating installation.

Electricians can come in to contact with unvented cylinders and it may be on their watch(god forbid) when substantial property damage occurs or somebody gets hurt usually the old and infirm or children.

Are you any less liable for working on something and not recognising it's danger to the home owner.

Unvented cylinders are Dangerious, in the Uk they are covered under G3 regs where every installation is inspected for safety by the local building inspector in Ireland there are no regs and cylinders are rarely fitted properly and often discharge large volumes of water destroying the property's there in.