Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Notes in OP,22/7

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

In the case where a highly sought after player is wanted, I can't remember a time where a Spanish club has not sat back and pointed to the buyout clause, in the case where the player hasn't handed in an official transfer request.

Yeah sure, if your buying average play B and the club don't see a future for him, of course its within their best interest to not hold out for the buyout in order to get a sale.

But in the case of highly sought after players, who generate interest and are hot properties, most clubs will point to the buyout clause.

I think you are over estimating your knowledge of transfer negotiations. For the vast majority of them you and I wouldn't have a notion how the negotiations went and what the final fee was.

What I do know is that knowledgeable journalists like Sid Lowe have said that all players in Spain have buy-out clauses and that they are normally set at exorbitant prices. I also know that highly sought after players are sold by Spanish clubs every season and many of them go for fees that are far less than exorbitant.

Cypher_sounds

TheDoc wrote: »

Well considering we simply arn't producing any top quality talent from our youth setup, we are inevitably selling players that we have bought for big enough bucks.

And they are leaving because they are surplus to requirements, in otherwords not good enough.

We are rarely to never going to recoup fees on players, instances like Ronaldo are the very rare occasions where we flip profit on players. And it's very, VERY rare.

I'd like to think that we are still producing talent/buying them in young to help nurture their skills. Welbeck has some qualities I reckon he is worth around 10million if he was to be sold. Januzaj is quality. Lawerence, Wilson and maybe a few others are showing promise.
Paul Pogba was good enough but went for free which is the player that i was thinking about in my last post but i suppose that is an isolated case.

Spazdarn

TheDoc wrote: »

Well considering we simply arn't producing any top quality talent from our youth setup, we are inevitably selling players that we have bought for big enough bucks.

And they are leaving because they are surplus to requirements, in otherwords not good enough.

We are rarely to never going to recoup fees on players, instances like Ronaldo are the very rare occasions where we flip profit on players. And it's very, VERY rare.

Pique left for half nothing, never understood that.

tupac_healy

MagicIRL wrote: »

That ship has long since sailed I'm afraid Wesley! He had his chance, bottled it and ended up wasting away in Turkey. Goodnight and God bless.

Whilst I do agree with you the time for that transfer had passed and he made a big mistake not gracing the theatre of dreams (at the time of the talk it just seemed right for both parties, strange it didn't come off) Van Gaal obviously trusts him and uses him as a very important player for the NT...

I would be surprised to see him making a move for him, surround himself with players he knows and trusts, ala RVP....

Cookiemunster

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Pique left for half nothing, never understood that.

Cause he hadn't a hope of shifting Rio or Vidic and Fergie rated Evans higher.

ElChe32

Please please please not Snejider, he had his chance back in his prime and he's passed his best now.

Liam O

Sneijder has been pure gack in the WC.

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

I don't know if its so much to do with LVG, as much as maybe people seeing him for the first time?

Doubt many people here watch the Dutch league, I certainly don't and hadn't a clue who he was, like a fair few of that Dutch team.

But when you hit two crossfield balls like that in a game against Spain, your bound to sit up and take notice.

He's gone on to be pretty reliable and versatile during the tournament, but he's not someone exactly setting my pulse alight.

Very conservative in his play and would be a squad player at best imo. Definitely not sweating for LVG to get him or anything.

Fair enough if people have not seen much of him until this tournament, I'm in the same boat myself. My point is not that people should have already known about him, but that he is only being considered by most people because they trust LVG's judgement and LVG selected him. I think the majority of people discussing football, judge a player's ability purely on who they play for rather than forming opinions themselves.

Spazdarn

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Cause he hadn't a hope of shifting Rio or Vidic and Fergie rated Evans higher.

Still don't think it should have devalued him, he was considered one of the most promising defenders around at the time.. wanted by the mighty Barcelona

Soldie

Glad we've gotten rid of Evra, Vidic and Ferdinand. All three club legends and heroes in their day but they're past their best so I'm not going to be sentimental about it. Hopefully we can get another midefielder or two in so that we can phase Carrick out.

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

I think you are over estimating your knowledge of transfer negotiations. For the vast majority of them you and I wouldn't have a notion how the negotiations went and what the final fee was.

What I do know is that knowledgeable journalists like Sid Lowe have said that all players in Spain have buy-out clauses and that they are normally set at exorbitant prices. I also know that highly sought after players are sold by Spanish clubs every season and many of them go for fees that are far less than exorbitant.

All players in Spain have buy-out clauses, as technically, they are assets owned by the Spanish FA. The buyout clause thing is nothing to do with clubs, it's a Spanish Fa requirement, which came as part of Spanish legislation as the transfer of Spanish players oversees is seen as an export of an asset.

The Spanish Government receive a portion of every sale of a player oversee's as a % tax.

I'm not implying that I know anything secretive about transfers, but I've read enough down through the years, even from the likes of Sid Lowe, explaining how that buyout system works.

Whilst in the vast majority of cases the buyout clause its never reached because as you say a) it's exageratted and b) The club are actually willing to sell.

However in the case where a club don't want to sell, but are coming under increased pressure from the players agent and the player himself, they can sit back and point to the buyout clause. While it might be OTT, it's actually legally binding and a club unless willing to defer that option, are under no obligation to sell a player, while under contract, for less then that clause.

But as you say, in the VAST majority of cases the sale does go through, but remembering that most Spanish clubs require sales to generate revenue to reinvest in the squad, so will be open to selling.

But when you have BIG sought after players like Herrera, Martinez, Costa etc., it does appear that clubs can try the buyers patience in quoting the buyout clause.

I don't think we are far of the mark here, I agree with you that in most cases it's not a factor, because the selling club need the capital to reinvest. But in the majority of cases, they are not selling their prized asset and might be simply selling players surplus to requirements in order to fund other investments.

I would for example imagine Fabregas and soon Shanchez, will go beneath their buyouts, but only because Barca are looking to re-invest and clear out their wagebill.

I'd imagine at this point, after Costa leaving, any advances for lets say Koke, will result in the buyout needing to be met, as the club save face in assuring their fans they arnt shifting their top assets.

Cookiemunster

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Still don't think it should have devalued him, he was considered one of the most promising defenders around at the time.. wanted by the mighty Barcelona

He was a 21 yr old with 1 yr left on his contract with a total of 23 senior appearences in 4 yrs at the club. That was about what he was worth at the time. And all he did was go home to Barca.

Giggsy11

Pro. F wrote: »

Fair enough if people have not seen much of him until this tournament, I'm in the same boat myself. My point is not that people should have already known about him, but that he is only being considered by most people because they trust LVG's judgement and LVG selected him. I think the majority of people discussing football, judge a player's ability purely on who they play for rather than forming opinions themselves.

I think most/few people considered him (I'm assuming Blind) as he was linked with United by media for obvious reasons and maybe some were impressed with his performance in friendlies and few world cup games.

Yeah I'm talking about myself

The first match I watched him was in the friendly before world cup where he played as CM/DM and I liked what I saw. Then he followed it up with a good performance against Spain as LWB. So I for one felt he would be a good addition to the squad as he plays in multiple position without much drop in his performance levels.

Sample size was too small but I'm not a scout to watch Dutch league and watch all players to form a solid opinion. :cool:

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

Fair enough if people have not seen much of him until this tournament, I'm in the same boat myself. My point is not that people should have already known about him, but that he is only being considered by most people because they trust LVG's judgement and LVG selected him. I think the majority of people discussing football, judge a player's ability purely on who they play for rather than forming opinions themselves.

Yeah I'd go along with that in parts.

I think Vidal for me is a good example. I think subcounsiously my views on him have been formed somewhat from peoples craving for him here. I watched him only at the WC, and probably overvalued my thoughts on him, trying to nearly slot in with the majority who seem to lvoe him and want him.

But there is definitly cases of quick opinions been formed in some scenarios, and your probably right in regards to having faith in LVG alone, and not forming their own opinions.

But at the same time thats par for the course not only for us, but for pundits, commentators, journalists etc. There is a shocking lack of individualism in football, and most people feel safer aligning their opinion with the majority, which is understandable.

We've been linked with most of the Dutch squad for obvious reasons. Before this WC, out of the players that played, I was familiar with RVp, Robben, Sneijder, Huntelaar, Kruul, Vlaar ( to a certain degree) Kuyt and De Jong.

Everyone else was new to me and I'd never seen before. While obviously there was some impressive performances or moments, I think a lot of people lost the run of themselves after that Spanish game. Throughout the tournament Holland have shown an extreme derp of ability in the midfield, and relied on counter attacks.

I think DJwri or however you spell it, is about the only overly impressive player I've seen in that squad, that I would be interested in the club signing.

cdb

We had the 3 R's in Ruud, Rooney & Ronaldo, are we set to have the 3 V's of Van Persie, Vidal & Vlaar/Vermaelen.

bucketybuck

cdb wrote: »

We had the 3 R's in Ruud, Rooney & Ronaldo, are we set to have the 3 V's of Van Persie, Vidal & Vlaar/Vermaelen.

Would be a better joke if we didn't have Van Persie, Vidic and Valencia last season.

MagicIRL

Say it with me Doc; de Vrij. de V-r-i-j.

I am pie

Van Persie looks like he needs a long rest. Lack of Europe might actually benefit him, looked completely out of gas this world cup.

Spazdarn

Cookiemunster wrote: »

He was a 21 yr old with 1 yr left on his contract with a total of 23 senior appearences in 4 yrs at the club. That was about what he was worth at the time. And all he did was go home to Barca.

Was unaware he only had a year left on his contract. Shouldn't have let it get down to a year really

The_Kew_Tour

I am pie wrote: »

Van Persie looks like he needs a long rest. Lack of Europe might actually benefit him, looked completely out of gas this world cup.

Some the the stuff I read about him has been so funny this WC in here.

the man is injured and yet people still cant see that.

the "bottler" stuff is lol worthy x100

Adamocovic

I know most people are discrediting any links to any of the dutch players. And putting it down to the fact that VG manages them now, but honestly De Vrij is a huge possibility.

We've been talking about him for a while ever since Feyenoord announced that he will more than likely be leaving this year and the fact that he has a low enough price tag at around £10 million. I'd like him to come, he still only 22 and he's comfortable playing right back too.

Only downside is he might be a bit young and it would be better to have an experienced centre back like Hummels who can probably step in as a leader figure in the centre. Also really want to see Jones given a full season in centre back.

Can't wait until Holland wrap up their World Cup so VG can meet up with the team.

grames_bond

Giggs talks abouit that him and van gaal discussed in their meeting - interview up on the united site:

http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-Features/Football-News/2014/Jul/Ryan-Giggs-discusses-first-meeting-with-Louis-van-Gaal.aspx?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=ManUtd


very good interview i thought!

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

All players in Spain have buy-out clauses, as technically, they are assets owned by the Spanish FA. The buyout clause thing is nothing to do with clubs, it's a Spanish Fa requirement, which came as part of Spanish legislation as the transfer of Spanish players oversees is seen as an export of an asset.

The Spanish Government receive a portion of every sale of a player oversee's as a % tax.

I'm not implying that I know anything secretive about transfers, but I've read enough down through the years, even from the likes of Sid Lowe, explaining how that buyout system works.

Whilst in the vast majority of cases the buyout clause its never reached because as you say a) it's exageratted and b) The club are actually willing to sell.

However in the case where a club don't want to sell, but are coming under increased pressure from the players agent and the player himself, they can sit back and point to the buyout clause. While it might be OTT, it's actually legally binding and a club unless willing to defer that option, are under no obligation to sell a player, while under contract, for less then that clause.

But as you say, in the VAST majority of cases the sale does go through, but remembering that most Spanish clubs require sales to generate revenue to reinvest in the squad, so will be open to selling.

But when you have BIG sought after players like Herrera, Martinez, Costa etc., it does appear that clubs can try the buyers patience in quoting the buyout clause.

I don't think we are far of the mark here, I agree with you that in most cases it's not a factor, because the selling club need the capital to reinvest. But in the majority of cases, they are not selling their prized asset and might be simply selling players surplus to requirements in order to fund other investments.

I would for example imagine Fabregas and soon Shanchez, will go beneath their buyouts, but only because Barca are looking to re-invest and clear out their wagebill.

I'd imagine at this point, after Costa leaving, any advances for lets say Koke, will result in the buyout needing to be met, as the club save face in assuring their fans they arnt shifting their top assets.

You agree with me that many clubs need or want to sell and are willing to do so at more reasonable prices, so they don't hold out for their buyout clauses to be met. That's different from what you said first about it being difficult to buy a player for less than their buy-out clause.

In the case where clubs don't want or need to sell they can sit back and point to the buy-out clause if they have one. That is true, but if they don't have one they can still sit back and say "we don't want to sell". So the presence or absence of a clause makes no difference.

TheDoc

MagicIRL wrote: »

Say it with me Doc; de Vrij. de V-r-i-j.

Thanks, helps me alot

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

You agree with me that many clubs need or want to sell and are willing to do so at more reasonable prices, so they don't hold out for their buyout clauses to be met. That's different from what you said first about it being difficult to buy a player for less than their buy-out clause.

In the case where clubs don't want or need to sell they can sit back and point to the buy-out clause if they have one. If they don't have one they can sit back and say "we don't want to sell". So the presence or absence of a clause makes no difference.

Yeah my original post was definitely ambigious as the conversation went on. It was assuming the topic was related to "highly sought after" targets.

But your 100% right in saying transfers happen all the time below the buyout, my point and opinion would be though that its more difficult when say someone like us, is chasing hot property, from a club not willing to sell easily.

Your last point is correct aswell, but I think the prescence of a buyout clause gives the club in question a face saving get out of jail card, like in the Herrera case, where the director pleaded victim to not wanting to sell and being forced to because of the clause.

Yet everyone and it's grandmother knew Herrera would eventually leave that club to move onto bigger and better things.

No fan wants to lose their star player(s) and no board/club want to look like a selling club, upsetting fans. For reference, look at Southampton, not a happy bunch over their, and the remaining players are looking for the door ASAP.

A hot tip for relegation imo.

MagicIRL

We must embrace our new dutch overlords!

Pro. F

Giggsy11 wrote: »

I think most/few people considered him (I'm assuming Blind) as he was linked with United by media for obvious reasons and maybe some were impressed with his performance in friendlies and few world cup games.

Yeah I'm talking about myself

The first match I watched him was in the friendly before world cup where he played as CM/DM and I liked what I saw. Then he followed it up with a good performance against Spain as LWB. So I for one felt he would be a good addition to the squad as he plays in multiple position without much drop in his performance levels.

Sample size was too small but I'm not a scout to watch Dutch league and watch all players to form a solid opinion. :cool:

It's not the suggestion of Blind that I think there's anything weird about. Nor that people don't watch the Eredivisie. It's the absence of suggestions for players in general. It seems like most people only suggest players when they are already playing for a successful/big team.

That is not something I would criticise you of at all though. I remember you suggesting Schneiderlin, when otherwise he wouldn't have been getting a mention. (I have no idea how I remembered that. My brain surprises me sometimes.)

ollkiller

Long time follower of the thread but i shall engage in the madness. Vidal, De Blind etc are not signing.

Anyway two great signings already, would be happy with one more central mid and a top centre back. We have more than enough up front but if Di Maria is available at a good price i'd be in for him.

All hail our new Dutch overlord!!!

I would love to be at the first home game in the PL,you can imagine the ovation that LVG will get!

Iseedeadpixels

ollkiller wrote: »

Long time follower of the thread but i shall engage in the madness. Vidal, De Blind etc are not signing.

Anyway two great signings already, would be happy with one more central mid and a top centre back. We have more than enough up front but if Di Maria is available at a good price i'd be in for him.

All hail our new Dutch overlord!!!

Eh thats Futureguys job :mad:

DARK-KNIGHT

Sign devrij bulk him up and nickname him fridge

TheDoc

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

Eh thats Futureguys job :mad:

He said he is new, he'll learn the ropes quick enough

Blatter

Never thought I'd see the day :eek:

brinty

Blatter wrote: »

Never thought I'd see the day :eek:

whats that all about
or am i totally stupid

Edit : Guess i am stupid... Fellaini cut the fro...now would her ever FRO out of our club...

Headshot

And all the afro hair manufactures fall to their knees and yell NO NO NO NO

thelad95

Blatter wrote: »

Never thought I'd see the day :eek:

I have to say, he actually looks pretty intimidating without the stupid afro. :eek:

Insect Overlord

Did he actually cut it, or does he have it in rows?

glued

It'll be very interesting to see what happens to him this season. He's definitely got the talent but he has zero confidence. He'll seriously need to improve his control for van Gaal

thelad95

glued wrote: »

It'll be very interesting to see what happens to him this season. He's definitely got the talent but he has zero confidence. He'll seriously need to improve his control for van Gaal

He would be ideal to play as a squad player if we were in the Europa League but we aren't so I wouldn't be surprised to see him in a Stoke or West Brom shirt soon.

Vic Vinegar

An File wrote: »

Did he actually cut it, or does he have it in rows?

Could be that or tied back really tightly i suppose!

Julez

Blatter wrote: »

Never thought I'd see the day :eek:

I thought it was Federico Macheda!

HaveASnickers

Haven't read the thread since before the Holland game.

I think last night showed the "genius" of LVG wasn't in fact genius, but more a decision out of necessity. Serious questions have to be asked about why Vlaar took the first penalty. I seen some comment that LVG used to take the spotlight off his decision to pick Vlaar as first choice when he said 2 players refused to take (the first?) a penalty. There was Robben/Sneijder/Kuyt/Huntelaar just off the top of my head as 4 players who are vastly more proven in penalty taking than Vlaar.

RichFTW

Julez wrote: »

I thought it was Federico Macheda!

Macheda ages in dog years though. He probably looks about 55 at this stage!

Spazdarn

HaveASnickers wrote: »

Haven't read the thread since before the Holland game.

I think last night showed the "genius" of LVG wasn't in fact genius, but more a decision out of necessity. Serious questions have to be asked about why Vlaar took the first penalty. I seen some comment that LVG used to take the spotlight off his decision to pick Vlaar as first choice when he said 2 players refused to take (the first?) a penalty. There was Robben/Sneijder/Kuyt/Huntelaar just off the top of my head as 4 players who are vastly more proven in penalty taking than Vlaar.

Players bottled it... he can't take the penalties for them

Hococop

HaveASnickers wrote: »

Haven't read the thread since before the Holland game.

I think last night showed the "genius" of LVG wasn't in fact genius, but more a decision out of necessity. Serious questions have to be asked about why Vlaar took the first penalty. I seen some comment that LVG used to take the spotlight off his decision to pick Vlaar as first choice when he said 2 players refused to take (the first?) a penalty. There was Robben/Sneijder/Kuyt/Huntelaar just off the top of my head as 4 players who are vastly more proven in penalty taking than Vlaar.

Apparently huntelaar is one of the players who wouldn't take the first penalty

MagicIRL

There's literally 0 reasons to keep Fellaini now. I can't make bad Thin Lizzy jokes watching games anymore.

HaveASnickers

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Players bottled it... he can't take the penalties for them

I don't think Robben/Sneijder/Huntelaar would have refused to take the first kick.

Argentina sent Messi.
Holland sent Vlaar.

HaveASnickers

And my worries about our strike force were rekindled last night.

RVP can't go on forever. I'd love to think he doesn't rely on pace but his level will drop. How many times was he offside this tournament? I'd love to know...

Hope Chico isn't sold and Welbeck is in LVGs plans.

Spazdarn

Could see Hernandez staying because of his impact off the bench, but Welbeck seems in capable of scoring so he won't be played as a striker and we don't seem to be sticking with our wide play ( this of course is only based off of predictions of LVGs possible formations but...) don't know where he fits really

Johner

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Could see Hernandez staying because of his impact off the bench

Isn't that why he wants to leave?