Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Notes in OP,22/7

Mitch Connor

bucketybuck wrote: »

Nope. The Moyes defence does not apply to Valencia. He was utter trash and had been found out before Moyes ever walked through the door.

At this stage expecting Valencia to improve is no different than expecting Anderson to improve.

Hate this insane crap of valencia being 'found out', that is simply crap to say.

He played in England for a few years before United signed him. He did well the first season at United. He was doing well his second season before injury. He was EXCELLENT in his third season. He has been crap in the last two seasons.

Is your argument that Valencia's game, which had always been direct - knock it past the defender, power it past and cross it in - with basically no use of his left foot, took 5 years for defenders to work out? His game has never been tough to read, it was tough to stop.

The problem isn't that he has been found out, defenders would have known how to defend against him in 2010. The problem is simply he is now playing absolute crap, consistently.

He doesn't even try to power past the defenders anymore - he doesnt take them on, he hesitates. He doesnt look for a cross, he just aimlessly drills it. I don't know why he is now playing like a moron, why he doesnt do the things he once did. It is insane, but it isn't because he was 'found out'.

kryogen

bucketybuck wrote: »

Nope. The Moyes defence does not apply to Valencia. He was utter trash and had been found out before Moyes ever walked through the door.

At this stage expecting Valencia to improve is no different than expecting Anderson to improve.

I have never bought the Valencia was worked out/found out thing, he has been in the league a long time to just suddenly be found out, its not like his game had changed from his time at Wigan to when he was at United, defenders knew what he was going to do, they just couldnt stop him.I think the injuries have had an effect on him mentally as well as physically and that is a factor to his decline, his unwillingness to fully commit imo.

I don't think he will ever get back to the level he was at before, I compare it somewhat to the "ips"

I think we will be able to find a buyer for him next season if needs be, either in the league, someone like Villa, or abroad. Am concerned with what it means for signings this season though, we don't need as big a squad and having Nani, Valencia, Young, Januzaj, Mata, Kagawa and other back up options available to play wide doesn't fill me with confidence that any talent is going to be brought in there

That is ok in itself for this season, other areas require strengthening first and in that sense it makes sense to tie up Valencia and make sure he can't run his contract down and the team get something back for him. Would not be surprised at all if this is his last season with the club

Edit: Damn you Mitch, got there just ahead of me!

umop.episdn

^^ perhaps those injuries haven taken their toll & he is no longer able to play his old way, his blistering pace has waned & maybe (unlike Giggs) he hasn't adapted his game to compensate?

Timmyctc

Valencia is ****e. Thats a given. But people going on about how he's "been found out" are vastly underestimating the ability of 20+ Premier League managers.

Do people honestly think it took people 3+ years to realise Valencia had only one trick?

EDIT: Jesus :P I didn't even see Mitch's post.

Will I Amnt

Mitch just said more or less what I was going to say. Pace and power can't be found out.
Valencia has just become reluctant to take on his man and his crossing has gone to sh*t. It's almost like he waits until there's a defender in front of him to try and cross. I'd imagine it's a mental thing with him more than anything.

Mitch Connor

umop.episdn wrote: »

^^ perhaps those injuries haven taken their toll & he is no longer able to play his old way, his blistering pace has waned & maybe (unlike Giggs) he hasn't adapted his game to compensate?

his third, best, season was the year after the injury. Its an odd one.

redbaron_99

Mitch Connor wrote: »

his third, best, season was the year after the injury. Its an odd one.

Some players fade during their career. Hard to put a finger on what the problem is.
But the limited nature of his game probably makes it a lot harder for him to rediscover his best form.
I have no faith in him anymore. Him being given a new contract is worrying.
There's some poor management at the club in recent years. I thought we would have seen a dramatic turn with LVG being hired.

Timmyctc

Can we buy Besic and Pjanic. They are pure class to watch. Imagine the team you could make from the Former Yugoslav states

sigmundv

redbaron_99 wrote: »

There's some poor management at the club in recent years. I thought we would have seen a dramatic turn with LVG being hired.

The problem is that Louis van Gaal hasn't really started in his job yet. Retaining Valencia is nothing to worry about. You need experienced squad players.

redbaron_99

Timmyctc wrote: »

Can we buy Besic and Pjanic. They are pure class to watch. Imagine the team you could make from the Former Yugoslav states

Pjamic is top notch. Just signed a new deal at Roma, though. I think.

user2011

Timmyctc wrote: »

Can we buy Besic and Pjanic. They are pure class to watch. Imagine the team you could make from the Former Yugoslav states

Looks very impressive.

Timmyctc

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Pjamic is top notch. Just signed a new deal at Roma, though. I think.

Didnt watch much of Roma this year, only the games against Juve but he's been good at this WC so far

user2011 wrote: »

Looks very impressive.

Only 21 or 22 too I think.

user2011

Timmyctc wrote: »

Didnt watch much of Roma this year, only the games against Juve but he's been good at this WC so far



Only 21 or 22 too I think.

I only noticed him when I was looking for a player to be booked in their game against Argentina seen his soccerway profile has him as a defender but he was playing midfield.

Watched him closely that game and he was really good for a defender playing midfield. Can pick a pass, very mobile. Always looking around when getting the ball to see where he can, not just back to defenders forward passes

Crimson King

Considering LVG's connections in Bayern, I wonder if a cheeky hid for Hojbjerg is worth a punt? Guy looks dynamite and not yet really a regular starter for them.

The comparisons between Valencia and Anderson are way off IMO. Valencia has some great seasons for Utd under his belt. Anderson does not. To expect one to come good (again) is not the same at all as expecting the other to come good.

kryogen

stankratz wrote: »

The comparisons between Valencia and Anderson are way off IMO. Valencia has some great seasons for Utd under his belt. Anderson does not. To expect one to come good (again) is not the same at all as expecting the other to come good.

Who made the comparison between Valencia and Anderson?

kryogen

kryogen wrote: »

Who made the comparison between Valencia and Anderson?

There have been posts in the last few pages saying that expecting Valencia to come good is the same as expecting Anderson to come good, unless I'm hallucinating.

Mitch Connor

sunday papers making horror reading for United tomorrow.

Apparently we are looking to sign De Jong from Milan, and play Rooney in central midfield.

To both I say: FCK OFF!

kryogen

stankratz wrote: »

There have been posts in the last few pages saying that expecting Valencia to come good is the same as expecting Anderson to come good, unless I'm hallucinating.

As I am on my mobile searching for things is a pain in the ass so would you mind quoting or linking me to 4 or 5 of these?

Missed them, do remember one post, where someone said people who expect Valencia to come good again are probably like those who expected Anderson to come good, year after year. Dont remember anything else is all. That wasnt even making a comparison tbf, also they are extremely different, Ando never fulfilled his potential, for various reasons. Valencia was a very good weapon for us.

Manutd_4life

Mitch Connor wrote: »

sunday papers making horror reading for United tomorrow.

Apparently we are looking to sign De Jong from Milan, and play Rooney in central midfield.

To both I say: FCK OFF!

no thanks, next one please

Neeson

DeJong is exactly what is required. Your hard man. And I'm sure many would at least agree he'd be better than Cattermole. Personally I'd take both if they were available.

Hard boys are needed. Someone who will slice the ear of Carrick or Rooney if they don't play to the required standards. Roy Keane was a hard man. No hard man has graced the pitch in the United Red since Roy Keane.

Liam O

Neeson wrote: »

DeJong is exactly what is required. Your hard man. And I'm sure many would at least agree he'd be better than Cattermole. Personally I'd take both if they were available.

Hard boys are needed. Someone who will slice the ear of Carrick or Rooney if they don't play to the required standards. Roy Keane was a hard man. No hard man has graced the pitch in the United Red since Roy Keane.

I'm not sure, I think we'd definitely need 2 shadowcomplex 11s to sort the De Jong- Cattermole brain wrencher.

bmcc10

Neeson wrote: »

DeJong is exactly what is required. Your hard man. And I'm sure many would at least agree he'd be better than Cattermole. Personally I'd take both if they were available.

Hard boys are needed. Someone who will slice the ear of Carrick or Rooney if they don't play to the required standards. Roy Keane was a hard man. No hard man has graced the pitch in the United Red since Roy Keane.

You'd take Cattermole?? If i see the day Cattermole has the United jersey stupidly tucked inside his shorts is the day i lose all faith in United.

kryogen

Neeson wrote: »

DeJong is exactly what is required. Your hard man. And I'm sure many would at least agree he'd be better than Cattermole. Personally I'd take both if they were available.

Hard boys are needed. Someone who will slice the ear of Carrick or Rooney if they don't play to the required standards. Roy Keane was a hard man. No hard man has graced the pitch in the United Red since Roy Keane.

You're right, Vidic was a powder puff fairy sure :rolleyes:

Neeson

bmcc10 wrote: »

You'd take Cattermole?? If i see the day Cattermole has the United jersey stupidly tucked inside his shorts is the day i lose all faith in United.

He won't break the bank and he is a tough nut who would give a bit of solidity around the middle.

bucketybuck

kryogen wrote: »

As I am on my mobile searching for things is a pain in the ass so would you mind quoting or linking me to 4 or 5 of these?

Missed them, do remember one post, where someone said people who expect Valencia to come good again are probably like those who expected Anderson to come good, year after year. Dont remember anything else is all. That wasnt even making a comparison tbf, also they are extremely different, Ando never fulfilled his potential, for various reasons. Valencia was a very good weapon for us.

I said it, and I'll say it again.

A poster earlier referenced Valencia perhaps finding his form again under LVG. But it has been years now, and even thinking for one second that Valencia is going to regain his form is just as blindly hopeful as thinking that LVG is going to make Anderson the player we hoped he would be, or a Chelsea fan thinking Torres is suddenly going to become the player he was years ago.

bmcc10

Neeson wrote: »

He won't break the bank and he is a tough nut who would give a bit of solidity around the middle.

I have no words :eek:

kryogen

bucketybuck wrote: »

I said it, and I'll say it again.

A poster earlier referenced Valencia perhaps finding his form again under LVG. But it has been years now, and even thinking for one second that Valencia is going to regain his form is just as blindly hopeful as thinking that LVG is going to make Anderson the player we hoped he would be, or a Chelsea fan thinking Torres is suddenly going to become the player he was years ago.

Yeah thats the one I remember, from my reading of the other lads post I thought there were a few of them, he did say comparisons plural

kryogen

kryogen wrote: »

As I am on my mobile searching for things is a pain in the ass so would you mind quoting or linking me to 4 or 5 of these?

Missed them, do remember one post, where someone said people who expect Valencia to come good again are probably like those who expected Anderson to come good, year after year. Dont remember anything else is all. That wasnt even making a comparison tbf, also they are extremely different, Ando never fulfilled his potential, for various reasons. Valencia was a very good weapon for us.

bucketybuck wrote: »

Nope. The Moyes defence does not apply to Valencia. He was utter trash and had been found out before Moyes ever walked through the door.

At this stage expecting Valencia to improve is no different than expecting Anderson to improve.

KH25 wrote: »

Same as people saying Ando will come good every year. Won't happen.

Why 4 or 5 Kryo? Is there a minimum amount of posts on a subject that have to be made before someone else can comment on it? Maybe there are more than the 2 that I quoted above, I haven't the time to do your searching for you, but the fact is that those posts (and the thought they conveyed) stuck in my head and my disagreement was that strong that I felt like responding with my own opinion. Hope that's alright.

PhlegmyMoses

bmcc10 wrote: »

I have no words :eek:

He does this every few months. It's weird and a bit sad.

Neeson

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

He does this every few months. It's weird and a bit sad.

People are always telling me this. What I'm saying is a bit of a tough but is needed in the middle. Fine if you don't think it's Cattermole or DeJong. That's OK. I'm trying to be reasonable as well though.

I said about McGeady before. I wouldn't say he is worse than Young. And I don't think Cattermole or DeJong are terrible either but a lot here are turning their noses up at them.

PhlegmyMoses

Neeson wrote: »

People are always telling me this. What I'm saying is a bit of a tough but is needed in the middle. Fine if you don't think it's Cattermole or DeJong. That's OK. I'm trying to be reasonable as well though.

I said about McGeady before. I wouldn't say he is worse than Young. And I don't think Cattermole or DeJong are terrible either but a lot here are turning their noses up at them.

Ye.

kryogen

stankratz wrote: »

Why 4 or 5 Kryo? Is there a minimum amount of posts on a subject that have to be made before someone else can comment on it? Maybe there are more than the 2 that I quoted above, I haven't the time to do your searching for you, but the fact is that those posts (and the thought they conveyed) stuck in my head and my disagreement was that strong that I felt like responding with my own opinion. Hope that's alright.

Yes good sir the minimum is 11+4

Seriously, relax! Like I said Im on the mobile, didnt catch them or they didnt register, thanks for showing me what they were like.

I thought you meant different kinds of comparisons, the ones that you showed are not so much comparisons as people dismissing comparisons if you get me.

You have the position that Valencia could well regain his form?

Neeson

Besic is certainly hard. That is for sure.

Vic Vinegar

The Sunday papers seem to be more full of crap than the dailys for some reason. I suppose it was only a matter of time before De Jong was linked, after all, he is Dutch.

bmcc10

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

The Sunday papers seem to be more full of crap than the dailys for some reason. I suppose it was only a matter of time before De Jong was linked, after all, he is Dutch.

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/sport/worldcup2014/article-2664597/Arjen-Robben-best-player-World-Cup-I-wish-hed-signed-Manchester-United-not-Chelsea-2004.html

Hopefully the LVG effect works for us, Kind of another dig at Moyes in there from Rio?

Timmyctc

Jesus. Besic was released on a free by Hamburg. I wouldn't even care if we bought him based off one WC he is so super cool. Pjanic had such a good game.

kryogen

kryogen wrote: »

Yes good sir the minimum is 11+4

Seriously, relax! Like I said Im on the mobile, didnt catch them or they didnt register, thanks for showing me what they were like.

I thought you meant different kinds of comparisons, the ones that you showed are not so much comparisons as people dismissing comparisons if you get me.

You have the position that Valencia could well regain his form?

Alright Kryo, I may have thought you were coming on a bit strong there! My original post today opined that Valencia signing a new contract wasn't the worst news for me and I went into a few reasons why in that post.

For me, saying that expecting Valencia to come back is like expecting Anderson to come back is actually a comparison, and that is what I was commenting on above. I see the 2 situations as completely different, where Valencia has actually produced good form regularly for United while Anderson hasn't.

I didn't and am not now going into the reasons why one produced the goods and one didn't, I was just pointing out that with Antonio we have hard evidence of his ability in a United shirt and with Anderson we don't.

As far as expecting Tony V to regain form goes, I long ago gave up that expectation, but I don't think it's as outside the realms of possibility as expecting Anderson to do the same is. There is nothing I fully expect with United after the season that just transpired and with another new manager coming in, but Tony V signing a new contract isn't as offensive to me as it is to other fans. I believe if anyone can get him back on track it is LVG, I didn't feel that way with Moyes. To say anymore would be repeating my previous post which I linked above.

sigmundv

Mitch Connor wrote: »

sunday papers making horror reading for United tomorrow.

Apparently we are looking to sign De Jong from Milan, and play Rooney in central midfield.

To both I say: FCK OFF!

Please don't pay attention to Sunday papers. Their transfer stories are even more baseless than in the daily papers.

cdb

I've no doubt LVG would have ok'ed Valencia's contract offer and blaming Woodward or even Fergie as if they are somehow conspiring behind scenes to hoist him on an unsuspecting new manager is absolutely ridiculous.

Whatever people's opinions of him are, he is clearly seen as still having something to offer and I wouldn't be surprised if we see him fulfilling a more defensive role in the coming seasons.

Larry Wildman

Renewing Valencia's contract makes business sense. I don't know why people are flying off the handle about it. Regardless of what you think of him, Valencia's still an asset and Louis Van Gaal needs a chance to look at him and to assess whether he has a role to play. If he doesn't, we sell him, simple as that. And by securing our asset with a new contract, we're better placed to sell him (if that's the road we choose to go down).

Sometimes people forget that the players who many of us would like to see the back of probably have a collective value that could be used to make a "dream" signing (never mind their wages).

glued

Mitch Connor wrote: »

sunday papers making horror reading for United tomorrow.

Apparently we are looking to sign De Jong from Milan, and play Rooney in central midfield.

To both I say: FCK OFF!

What's wrong with De Jong? Milan's best player this season and would be a massive upgrade on our midfield. It would be a short term option but I would certainly like to see that deal being done. He's also someone you could attract fairly easily given that Milan aren't in the CL either and apparently De Jong wants to leave anyway. He's much more than the hack merchant that he's made out to be too.

Rooney may have to play in central midfield to get into the side but the press are just putting 2+2 on that one.

redbaron_99

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Renewing Valencia's contract makes business sense. I don't know why people are flying off the handle about it. Regardless of what you think of him, Valencia's still an asset and Louis Van Gaal needs a chance to look at him and to assess whether he has a role to play. If he doesn't, we sell him, simple as that. And by securing our asset with a new contract, we're better placed to sell him (if that's the road we choose to go down).

Sometimes people forget that the players who many of us would like to see the back of probably have a collective value that could be used to make a "dream" signing (nevermind their wages).

Lets just say he has another awful season, which is very likely judging by his performances in the World Cup. And we decide to sell him next summer. How much is our 30 year old asset goin to be worth on the market?

Zico

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Sometimes people forget that the players who many of us would like to see the back of probably have a collective value that could be used to make a "dream" signing (nevermind their wages).

I'm imagining a Frankenstein's Footballer now. Nani's right foot, Anderson's left, Welbeck's head, Valencia's engine and Young's 'fall over in the penalty area' mode.

redbaron_99

Zico wrote: »

I'm imagining a Frankenstein's Footballer now. Nani's right foot, Anderson's left, Welbeck's head, Valencia's engine and Young's 'fall over in the penalty area' mode.

Don't forget rooney's wig!

Edit: and Phil jones' mouth.

Larry Wildman

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Lets just say he has another awful season, which is very likely judging by his performances in the World Cup. And we decide to sell him next summer. How much is our 30 year old asset goin to be worth on the market?

I don't see the point you're making to be honest. Should Van Gaal turf him out without assessing him? Of course not.

He had circa 1 year left on his contract, so all of the options that entails were on the table (talk to other clubs soon, leave for free next year, etc). By signing him up on another contract, Van Gaal can assess him and if he doesn't like what he sees, we can sell him on our terms. The guy's 28. Does anyone think that we'd struggle to sell him if that's the road we choose to go down? I've no doubt that Stoke or Sunderland or someone of that ilk would pay £7m (or similar) for him.

So the choices were as follows:

- Turf him out now without letting Van Gaal assess him (idiotic).

- Don't give him a new contract, let Van Gaal assess him and risk having an asset leave for nothing (idiotic).

- Give him a new contract, let Van Gaal assess him and if he likes him, happy days, and if he doesn't like him, sell him (smart).

kryogen

Let him assess him? I would think he has a pretty good idea of what he is about by now tbh

He might be kept as an option for wing back maybe

redbaron_99

Larry Wildman wrote: »

I don't see the point you're making to be honest. Should Van Gaal turf him out without assessing him? Of course not.

He had circa 1 year left on his contract, so all of the options that entails were on the table (talk to other clubs soon, leave for free next year, etc). By signing him up on another contract, Van Gaal can assess him and if he doesn't like what he sees, we can sell him on our terms. The guy's 28. Does anyone think that we'd struggle to sell him if that's the road we choose to go down? I've no doubt that Stoke or Sunderland or someone of that ilk would pay £7m (or similar) for him.

So the choices were as follows:

- Turf him out now without letting Van Gaal assess him (idiotic).

- Don't give him a new contract, let Van Gaal assess him and risk having an asset leave for nothing (idiotic).

- Give him a new contract, let Van Gaal assess him and if he likes him, happy days, and if he doesn't like him, sell him (smart).

The guy is 29 next month. And no ones paying 7m for him - new contract or not.
And he will be 30 next summer, his form has been dreadful for a number of years. This guy's value is only going in one direction.
Strange that he turfed out butter without assessing him..

Mr_Red

Manchester United's Wayne Rooney to play centre midfield under new boss Van Gaal

Louis van Gaal intends to employ Wayne Rooney in a deep-lying midfield role next season.

The incoming Manchester United boss is desperate to accommodate Robin van Persie, Juan Mata and Rooney into his starting line-up.

And after consulting the Reds' staff on the issue, the Holland manager is ready to play striker Rooney in central midfield during the club’s ­pre-season tour of the United States and into the Premier League season.

Van Persie, who is Van Gaal’s national team skipper at the World Cup, is likely to be given the United armband next term, succeeding Nemanja Vidic in a role which David Moyes had been ready to hand to Rooney.

The Dutch striker is sure to be United’s first-choice No.9, with £37million ­club-record buy Mata likely to start in his preferred No.10 role, behind the main striker.

Van Gaal is not keen on playing Rooney in a wide role, as Roy Hodgson did in England's World Cup opener against Italy – especially as the player is not keen on the role.

It is believed Van Gaal thinks Rooney has the qualities to become a successful central midfield player, as he has a good range of passing and the ability to win the ball back.

And Van Gaal knows he must find a way of getting the best out of the Scouser, who signed a £300,000-a-week five-year contract last season to keep him out of Chelsea’s clutches.

United have been weak in central midfield since the end of Paul Scholes’ time as a ­frontline first-teamer.

Michael Carrick, Tom ­Cleverley and Marouane Fellaini all struggled under Moyes last season, while Darren Fletcher’s career has been hampered by illness.

Rooney has played in central midfield on occasions, though often only late in matches after substitutions have been made, but Sir Alex Ferguson always believed he had a future there.

It is a theory shared by Van Gaal and if the move is successful, it could provide a long-term boost to England who are likely to lose Steven Gerrard to international retirement this week, while they must also replace the 36-year-old Frank Lampard.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/manchester-uniteds-wayne-rooney-play-3738698

Timmyctc

Larry Wildman wrote: »

I don't see the point you're making to be honest. Should Van Gaal turf him out without assessing him? Of course not.

He had circa 1 year left on his contract, so all of the options that entails were on the table (talk to other clubs soon, leave for free next year, etc). By signing him up on another contract, Van Gaal can assess him and if he doesn't like what he sees, we can sell him on our terms. The guy's 28. Does anyone think that we'd struggle to sell him if that's the road we choose to go down? I've no doubt that Stoke or Sunderland or someone of that ilk would pay £7m (or similar) for him.

So the choices were as follows:

- Turf him out now without letting Van Gaal assess him (idiotic).

- Don't give him a new contract, let Van Gaal assess him and risk having an asset leave for nothing (idiotic).

- Give him a new contract, let Van Gaal assess him and if he likes him, happy days, and if he doesn't like him, sell him (smart).

Letting this "asset" leave on a free in a year is probably cheaper than giving him a new three year contract and selling him for <5m (Which is likely what he is gonna fetch, at highest.) Why couldn't he assess Valencia then offer him a new contract? He has, as you say, a whole year left on his contract.