Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Notes in OP,22/7

TheDoc

I've never really got involved in the Nani debate here, mostly because I kinda could easily fall on either side of the arguement. He's that sort of player that divides opinion.

But the point I maintain as what I consider my focus on Nani, is that there is simply to many excuses for him.

He's either being played out of position, or the most notible one is he is not getting a run of games.

At some point, what started as an excuse as to why Nani has had SOME patchy form, has become the main excuse as to the alerting demise of what at one point was the best winger operating in Europe bar none.

Two managers have felt that Antonio Valencia, Ashley Young and an untried, untested 18 year old Belgian who is actually a no.10, were superior in selection to Nani.

While I do agree that Nani has shown great flashes of ability down the year, and on occasion had succesfull runs, I think we need to stop using the excuse of " he needs a run of games".

Sorry, but playing for a club of United stature, you simply can't be afforded to start five games, in the hope you'll hit form for games 6,7,8 , slide back into your mediocirity then come out again.

Nani has serious issues with consistency. He always has massive issues with decision making, and can be pretty abject in the final third. This is something, unlike Ronaldo, he never shook off in his developement, and is still there.

For every one game he does well, there is about five that are pretty rubbish.

for ever five minutes of genius and genuine game changing ability, there is 85 minutes of losing the ball, wayward crosses and dilly dallying.

Sorry but at this point the Nani defence looks somewhat obscured, by turning an excuse into a stark defence for Nani.


You only need to go back to the initial point. Why does he not get a run of games?

And I think you will find the answer pretty much lies why his future is in question, and why he has failed to nail himself down as a critical component to this club.

The Nani defence simply makes no sense anymore.

It's the same sort of stuff the Torres defenders come out with, who are widely considered 100% clinically insane. And it's just harbouring for a level of play that once existed, that hasn't showed a glimpse of returning for a long long time.

beakerjoe

TheDoc wrote: »

I've never really got involved in the Nani debate here, mostly because I kinda could easily fall on either side of the arguement. He's that sort of player that divides opinion.

But the point I maintain as what I consider my focus on Nani, is that there is simply to many excuses for him.

He's either being played out of position, or the most notible one is he is not getting a run of games.

At some point, what started as an excuse as to why Nani has had SOME patchy form, has become the main excuse as to the alerting demise of what at one point was the best winger operating in Europe bar none.

Two managers have felt that Antonio Valencia, Ashley Young and an untried, untested 18 year old Belgian who is actually a no.10, were superior in selection to Nani.

While I do agree that Nani has shown great flashes of ability down the year, and on occasion had succesfull runs, I think we need to stop using the excuse of " he needs a run of games".

Sorry, but playing for a club of United stature, you simply can't be afforded to start five games, in the hope you'll hit form for games 6,7,8 , slide back into your mediocirity then come out again.

Nani has serious issues with consistency. He always has massive issues with decision making, and can be pretty abject in the final third. This is something, unlike Ronaldo, he never shook off in his developement, and is still there.

For every one game he does well, there is about five that are pretty rubbish.

for ever five minutes of genius and genuine game changing ability, there is 85 minutes of losing the ball, wayward crosses and dilly dallying.

Sorry but at this point the Nani defence looks somewhat obscured, by turning an excuse into a stark defence for Nani.


You only need to go back to the initial point. Why does he not get a run of games?

And I think you will find the answer pretty much lies why his future is in question, and why he has failed to nail himself down as a critical component to this club.

The Nani defence simply makes no sense anymore.

It's the same sort of stuff the Torres defenders come out with, who are widely considered 100% clinically insane. And it's just harbouring for a level of play that once existed, that hasn't showed a glimpse of returning for a long long time.

Bravo Doc Bravo. Couldnt say it better myself.

bullvine

Fantastic Doc!

Spazdarn

TheDoc wrote: »

I've never really got involved in the Nani debate here, mostly because I kinda could easily fall on either side of the arguement. He's that sort of player that divides opinion.

But the point I maintain as what I consider my focus on Nani, is that there is simply to many excuses for him.

He's either being played out of position, or the most notible one is he is not getting a run of games.

At some point, what started as an excuse as to why Nani has had SOME patchy form, has become the main excuse as to the alerting demise of what at one point was the best winger operating in Europe bar none.

Two managers have felt that Antonio Valencia, Ashley Young and an untried, untested 18 year old Belgian who is actually a no.10, were superior in selection to Nani.

While I do agree that Nani has shown great flashes of ability down the year, and on occasion had succesfull runs, I think we need to stop using the excuse of " he needs a run of games".

Sorry, but playing for a club of United stature, you simply can't be afforded to start five games, in the hope you'll hit form for games 6,7,8 , slide back into your mediocirity then come out again.

Nani has serious issues with consistency. He always has massive issues with decision making, and can be pretty abject in the final third. This is something, unlike Ronaldo, he never shook off in his developement, and is still there.

For every one game he does well, there is about five that are pretty rubbish.

for ever five minutes of genius and genuine game changing ability, there is 85 minutes of losing the ball, wayward crosses and dilly dallying.

Sorry but at this point the Nani defence looks somewhat obscured, by turning an excuse into a stark defence for Nani.


You only need to go back to the initial point. Why does he not get a run of games?

And I think you will find the answer pretty much lies why his future is in question, and why he has failed to nail himself down as a critical component to this club.

The Nani defence simply makes no sense anymore.

It's the same sort of stuff the Torres defenders come out with, who are widely considered 100% clinically insane. And it's just harbouring for a level of play that once existed, that hasn't showed a glimpse of returning for a long long time.

I understand the argument that he can do something special in a game, I get that, but you can't quantify the amount of goals we probably could have got, or not have conceded if his decision making was better.

adox

TheDoc wrote: »

I've never really got involved in the Nani debate here, mostly because I kinda could easily fall on either side of the arguement. He's that sort of player that divides opinion.

But the point I maintain as what I consider my focus on Nani, is that there is simply to many excuses for him.

He's either being played out of position, or the most notible one is he is not getting a run of games.

At some point, what started as an excuse as to why Nani has had SOME patchy form, has become the main excuse as to the alerting demise of what at one point was the best winger operating in Europe bar none.

Two managers have felt that Antonio Valencia, Ashley Young and an untried, untested 18 year old Belgian who is actually a no.10, were superior in selection to Nani.

While I do agree that Nani has shown great flashes of ability down the year, and on occasion had succesfull runs, I think we need to stop using the excuse of " he needs a run of games".

Sorry, but playing for a club of United stature, you simply can't be afforded to start five games, in the hope you'll hit form for games 6,7,8 , slide back into your mediocirity then come out again.

Nani has serious issues with consistency. He always has massive issues with decision making, and can be pretty abject in the final third. This is something, unlike Ronaldo, he never shook off in his developement, and is still there.

For every one game he does well, there is about five that are pretty rubbish.

for ever five minutes of genius and genuine game changing ability, there is 85 minutes of losing the ball, wayward crosses and dilly dallying.

Sorry but at this point the Nani defence looks somewhat obscured, by turning an excuse into a stark defence for Nani.


You only need to go back to the initial point. Why does he not get a run of games?

And I think you will find the answer pretty much lies why his future is in question, and why he has failed to nail himself down as a critical component to this club.

The Nani defence simply makes no sense anymore.

It's the same sort of stuff the Torres defenders come out with, who are widely considered 100% clinically insane. And it's just harbouring for a level of play that once existed, that hasn't showed a glimpse of returning for a long long time.

Ive no problem with people not wanting Nani at the club but when you get one line posts like "Nani had a run in the world cup and he was pants" and used a s a reason to move him on then I`m going to reply.

The Nani debate has been done to death and I try to stay out of it but with the likes of the above being posted its hard not to comment.

Sgt Pepper 64

I'll eat my hat if Vidal signs for you. You cannot seriously think he would even consider you given teams like Chelsea, Barca, RM would have him in a heartbeat

Mitch Connor

ToiletFusion wrote: »

I understand the argument that he can do something special in a game, I get that, but you can't quantify the amount of goals we probably could have got, or not have conceded if his decision making was better.

compare him to Valencia of the last two seasons.

I would argue that if Nani got as good a run on the right of midfield we'd have got more goals and assists out of him than we did Valencia, and considering the amount of goals Valencia was at least partially responsible for giving away in the last two seasons, and especially last season I don't think we'd have suffered much defensively either.

TheDoc

Billy86 wrote: »

I am not a bi Nani fan myself, but here is an interesting statistic from last season:

Minutes per goal or assist
119.2 - Nani - Premier League
119.8 - Hazard - PL
148.6 - Lingard - Championship
178.0 - Young - PL
205.6 - Januzaj - PL
252.4 - Valencia - PL
274.8 - Zaha - CH
616.0 - Zaha - PL

Again, total misunderstanding of statistics and a use

Statistics form part of a narrative, they arn't THE narrative.

So if you added some narrative here, you would also explore the fact that Nani played a small fraction of the overall minutes played by the rest in that list.

You would also narrate, if you were honest, that you cannot conclude that Nani's involvement in those particular minutes, he was the directing influence in terms of goals scored or chances created etc. You forgetting a pretty massive mitigating factor, in how the rest of the team performed.

You've taken a small dataset, and tried comparing it with a large one. You've also omitted the mitigating factors that simply makes this statistic ambiguous.

So rather then me commenting on what I think your saying, tell us what you think those stats actually illustrate, with your narrative. Then we can discuss them.

You can't just throw down numbers, and draw something from them

My pet hate, data analyst thing, but I just don't get why people throw down stats as if its a " now, there it is, in science". It makes no sense without narrative.

TheFullDuck

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

I'll eat my hat if Vidal signs for you. You cannot seriously think he would even consider you given teams like Chelsea, Barca, RM would have him in a heartbeat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAUOPHqx5Gs

Spazdarn

adox wrote: »

Ive no problem with people not wanting Nani at the club but when you get one line posts like "Nani had a run in the world cup and he was pants" and used a s a reason to move him on then I`m going to reply.

The Nani debate has been done to death and I try to stay out of it but with the likes of the above being posted its hard not to comment.

The argument began with a defence that he could be great if he got a run. He's had runs for club and country and done nothing with them. The world cup, is a short run of games for everybody. Every player there has to perform within said amount of games, hardly a valid argument that he could be so much better if he more games. There are plenty of lesser skilled players at the tournament with less game time coming into the tournament, doing far more... so that doesn't really cut it.

15 appearances 2 goals for his country in the last 2 years... added to his United statistics.

FutureGuy

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

I'll eat my hat if Vidal signs for you. You cannot seriously think he would even consider you given teams like Chelsea, Barca, RM would have him in a heartbeat

Given Shaw looks like signing for United and not his boyhood club, anything is possible

For the first time, United have a bit of momentum in the market and we have a world class manager. Could happen.

yermandan

Cookiemunster wrote: »

While in this case it's probably true, you do need to start following better twitter sources

10/10 agree haha

Spazdarn

Mitch Connor wrote: »

compare him to Valencia of the last two seasons.

I would argue that if Nani got as good a run on the right of midfield we'd have got more goals and assists out of him than we did Valencia, and considering the amount of goals Valencia was at least partially responsible for giving away in the last two seasons, and especially last season I don't think we'd have suffered much defensively either.

Agreed Valencia has been terrible, I don't want either of them to be honest.

Mitch Connor

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Agreed Valencia has been terrible, I don't want either of them to be honest.

Agreed - but my point is that I believe if Nani was given the patience and seemingly blind faith Moyes and Fergie gave Valencia, we would have a very very good player on our hands.

Remember when Valencia was injured and Nani did get a proper go on the right, he was (imo) robbed of player of the season by Bale.

Irishcrx

Delighted that we got Herrera and Shaw , we need a world class CB now. Hopefully Utd will go big and get Hummels, if we do that and get maybe Depay? and another CM it'll have been a great summer..

glued

TheDoc wrote: »

I've never really got involved in the Nani debate here, mostly because I kinda could easily fall on either side of the arguement. He's that sort of player that divides opinion.

But the point I maintain as what I consider my focus on Nani, is that there is simply to many excuses for him.

He's either being played out of position, or the most notible one is he is not getting a run of games.

At some point, what started as an excuse as to why Nani has had SOME patchy form, has become the main excuse as to the alerting demise of what at one point was the best winger operating in Europe bar none.

Two managers have felt that Antonio Valencia, Ashley Young and an untried, untested 18 year old Belgian who is actually a no.10, were superior in selection to Nani.

While I do agree that Nani has shown great flashes of ability down the year, and on occasion had succesfull runs, I think we need to stop using the excuse of " he needs a run of games".

Sorry, but playing for a club of United stature, you simply can't be afforded to start five games, in the hope you'll hit form for games 6,7,8 , slide back into your mediocirity then come out again.

Nani has serious issues with consistency. He always has massive issues with decision making, and can be pretty abject in the final third. This is something, unlike Ronaldo, he never shook off in his developement, and is still there.

For every one game he does well, there is about five that are pretty rubbish.

for ever five minutes of genius and genuine game changing ability, there is 85 minutes of losing the ball, wayward crosses and dilly dallying.

Sorry but at this point the Nani defence looks somewhat obscured, by turning an excuse into a stark defence for Nani.


You only need to go back to the initial point. Why does he not get a run of games?

And I think you will find the answer pretty much lies why his future is in question, and why he has failed to nail himself down as a critical component to this club.

The Nani defence simply makes no sense anymore.

It's the same sort of stuff the Torres defenders come out with, who are widely considered 100% clinically insane. And it's just harbouring for a level of play that once existed, that hasn't showed a glimpse of returning for a long long time.

Nani has started 14 games in the last two seasons. He does not get a consistent run to suggest he does is a complete fallacy. In the two seasons where Nani had a consistent run in the team he scored 9 goals and had 18 assists which placed him joint top with Tevez and Drogba in the goals scored/assisted chart. The following season 11/12 he was injured and played about 500 less minutes on the pitch but still managed to score 8 goals and assist 10 goals.

In the following season 2012/13 Ferguson didn't use him and was suffering with his ankle into the new season and it ruined his season. He only started 7 games. Moyes was just a disaster who didn't know how to use any players effectively.

The hate for Nani is bizarre. It's a myth that Nani is inconsistent because to be inconsistent you have to be involved in a consistent run of games. It's lazy analysis and the sort you would hear coming from a Phil Thompson or Charlie Nicholas. It's a fact that when Nani is involved in a consistent run of games over a season that he produces on the field for Manchester United.

Billy86

TheDoc wrote: »

I've never really got involved in the Nani debate here, mostly because I kinda could easily fall on either side of the arguement. He's that sort of player that divides opinion.

But the point I maintain as what I consider my focus on Nani, is that there is simply to many excuses for him.

He's either being played out of position, or the most notible one is he is not getting a run of games.

At some point, what started as an excuse as to why Nani has had SOME patchy form, has become the main excuse as to the alerting demise of what at one point was the best winger operating in Europe bar none.

Two managers have felt that Antonio Valencia, Ashley Young and an untried, untested 18 year old Belgian who is actually a no.10, were superior in selection to Nani.

While I do agree that Nani has shown great flashes of ability down the year, and on occasion had succesfull runs, I think we need to stop using the excuse of " he needs a run of games".

Sorry, but playing for a club of United stature, you simply can't be afforded to start five games, in the hope you'll hit form for games 6,7,8 , slide back into your mediocirity then come out again.

Nani has serious issues with consistency. He always has massive issues with decision making, and can be pretty abject in the final third. This is something, unlike Ronaldo, he never shook off in his developement, and is still there.

For every one game he does well, there is about five that are pretty rubbish.

for ever five minutes of genius and genuine game changing ability, there is 85 minutes of losing the ball, wayward crosses and dilly dallying.

Sorry but at this point the Nani defence looks somewhat obscured, by turning an excuse into a stark defence for Nani.


You only need to go back to the initial point. Why does he not get a run of games?

And I think you will find the answer pretty much lies why his future is in question, and why he has failed to nail himself down as a critical component to this club.

The Nani defence simply makes no sense anymore.

It's the same sort of stuff the Torres defenders come out with, who are widely considered 100% clinically insane. And it's just harbouring for a level of play that once existed, that hasn't showed a glimpse of returning for a long long time.

First I just have to say that we have a log jam of attacking players, especially without European football, and need to get rid of a few of them. Nani is on my list of players to offload (but LvG does like a pacy dribbler ala Robben, so might give him a swing) But I cannot agree with most of this, at least not fully.

Nani can be maddeningly inconsistent and frustrating, and can implode a match all on his own like Ronaldo used to sometimes do before 2006 and that is why I wouldn't mind to see the back of him.

But the fact is from around Jan 2011 - May 2012 he was one of our top players, with around 20 goals and 25 assists... then for some unknown own reasons he was pretty much dropped completely for Young and Valencia in 2012/13 despite those two players - between them - scoring ONE goal and getting nine assists. This continued last season where they combined for just 6 goals, 6 assists. Basically, there was some reason behind merit that was causing them to be picked over Nani. There were stories about injuries, but it also stank of politics (looking your way, Wayne!).

Even in his very limited appearances last season, Nani was far more consistent and productive than those two, but it didn't seem to matter. Again I would have offloaded him this summer if i was running the show, but not before punting Young and Valencia into touch. Cannot make any sense of resigning the latter.

TheDoc

adox wrote: »

Ive no problem with people not wanting Nani at the club but when you get one line posts like "Nani had a run in the world cup and he was pants" and used a s a reason to move him on then I`m going to reply.

The Nani debate has been done to death and I try to stay out of it but with the likes of the above being posted its hard not to comment.

I'm in agreeance with you there, read that myself and don't really compute.

I do accept that there is a good excuse, for him playing little to no gametime this season for United, playing three games in a world cup, and not lighting it on fire.

It's an unrealistic expectation surely?

But at the same time, and related my point, it's another in a long line of "excuses" for Nani.

How many games do we say quantifies enough to be back to match sharpness?

Suarez came back from his ban all guns blazing. Ronaldo came back from injury all guns blazing. I'll accept there are cases where players come back a little rough after injury, but Nani has been in full training for months. Open to correction, but he played two full games for Portugal in their pre tournament warmup games.

I think it's a realistic expectation that the player is ready to go.

That's just asking the question though, I think there is good weight behind critising a point made that Nani is rubbish JUST BECAUSE he had three bad games.

But at the same time it's somewhat symptomatic of the Nani paradox. If he needs a run of games to get sharp and on form, he's not any use in tournament football. And how do you quantify what sort of run of games he needs.

He's just too inconsistent to be relying on in a squad that is challenging( or wanting to) for titles etc. I wouldn't be so hasty into rushing him out the door, when he is in that electric form, he's incredible. But I think Nani needs to either take a long hard look, and work to sort out his inconsistency and rubbish decision making majority of times, or he needs to accept he will spend most of his time on the bench operating as a potential impact sub.

Considering Nani probably evaluates himself higher then recent form would suggest, the eventual conclusion here is the player leaving.

Spazdarn

Nani performed amazingly one season in seven. Didn't do a whole lot before that season, has done even less since.

From lazy wikipedia research, it appears he's scored about 40 goals in 220 games for United... for an attacking player that shoots as often as he does, is this enough?

MagicIRL

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

I'll eat my hat if Vidal signs for you. You cannot seriously think he would even consider you given teams like Chelsea, Barca, RM would have him in a heartbeat

beno619

TheDoc wrote: »

I've never really got involved in the Nani debate here, mostly because I kinda could easily fall on either side of the arguement. He's that sort of player that divides opinion.

But the point I maintain as what I consider my focus on Nani, is that there is simply to many excuses for him.

He's either being played out of position, or the most notible one is he is not getting a run of games.

At some point, what started as an excuse as to why Nani has had SOME patchy form, has become the main excuse as to the alerting demise of what at one point was the best winger operating in Europe bar none.

Two managers have felt that Antonio Valencia, Ashley Young and an untried, untested 18 year old Belgian who is actually a no.10, were superior in selection to Nani.

While I do agree that Nani has shown great flashes of ability down the year, and on occasion had succesfull runs, I think we need to stop using the excuse of " he needs a run of games".

Sorry, but playing for a club of United stature, you simply can't be afforded to start five games, in the hope you'll hit form for games 6,7,8 , slide back into your mediocirity then come out again.

Nani has serious issues with consistency. He always has massive issues with decision making, and can be pretty abject in the final third. This is something, unlike Ronaldo, he never shook off in his developement, and is still there.

For every one game he does well, there is about five that are pretty rubbish.

for ever five minutes of genius and genuine game changing ability, there is 85 minutes of losing the ball, wayward crosses and dilly dallying.

Sorry but at this point the Nani defence looks somewhat obscured, by turning an excuse into a stark defence for Nani.


You only need to go back to the initial point. Why does he not get a run of games?

And I think you will find the answer pretty much lies why his future is in question, and why he has failed to nail himself down as a critical component to this club.

The Nani defence simply makes no sense anymore.

It's the same sort of stuff the Torres defenders come out with, who are widely considered 100% clinically insane. And it's just harbouring for a level of play that once existed, that hasn't showed a glimpse of returning for a long long time.

He's been injured for the majority of the last 12 months ?

TheDoc

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Agreed - but my point is that I believe if Nani was given the patience and seemingly blind faith Moyes and Fergie gave Valencia, we would have a very very good player on our hands.

Remember when Valencia was injured and Nani did get a proper go on the right, he was (imo) robbed of player of the season by Bale.

I remember this vividly. And I think everyone does. And I think that is part of the problem.

We all long for that form from Nani, some think it will require patience from the manager to give him a run of games, some think it was a flash in the pan, somethink it will never return.

It's what really is the emotional drive I think behind everyone that talks on this subject. Nani was at a point the most inform winger in Europe, and it just didn't last. So we look to ways, excuses, methods, to get that back.

The most obvious arguement is that the managers persisted with Valencia, where they did not persist with Nani. I don't speculate for a minute to know anything about football management, but from my point of view, it somewhat looks obvious why this persistence is kept.

When Valencia is in terrible form, he still works the line like a demon. He provides cover in a defensive capacity, that we can debate until the sun goes down in regards to his effectiveness at it, but he is always there.

When Nani is in rubbish form, he is pretty much non existent. A passenger, a void on the side of the pitch that is completely useless.

If you have two out of form players, which one would you choose? The one that you can somewhat rely on in terms of defensive work and effort, or the one who might, just might, do something incredible to snatch a game.

I know we like to think that it's a game from the movies, where you would go with the guy that could get you that one chance. But if evidence is to be taken into consideration, we can take it that managers prefer the guy who is going to somewhat stick to defensive duties.

We also need to consider we see nothing that goes on in the training ground, where so many decisions and ideas are formed. SO what I also take from it, is that while Valencia and Young were in poisonous form, Nani wasn't doing much better on the training ground.

You can bet your bollox if Nani was replicating any shred of good play in training, he would have been getting more starts ahead of Young and Valencia. So we can only draw from it, that he wasn't doing it in training either.

At some point we need to just draw a line under making excuses and accept some hard truths. Nani has a serious issue with consistency and decision making, and that simply cannot be carried for long periods in a team challenging for titles. It simply can't.

Billy86

TheDoc wrote: »

Again, total misunderstanding of statistics and a use

Statistics form part of a narrative, they arn't THE narrative.

So if you added some narrative here, you would also explore the fact that Nani played a small fraction of the overall minutes played by the rest in that list.

You would also narrate, if you were honest, that you cannot conclude that Nani's involvement in those particular minutes, he was the directing influence in terms of goals scored or chances created etc. You forgetting a pretty massive mitigating factor, in how the rest of the team performed.

You've taken a small dataset, and tried comparing it with a large one. You've also omitted the mitigating factors that simply makes this statistic ambiguous.

So rather then me commenting on what I think your saying, tell us what you think those stats actually illustrate, with your narrative. Then we can discuss them.

You can't just throw down numbers, and draw something from them

My pet hate, data analyst thing, but I just don't get why people throw down stats as if its a " now, there it is, in science". It makes no sense without narrative.

See my other post, which gives larger sample sizes, and shows that Nana's production was far, far beyond Young or Valencia.

Not sure why you feel the need to call my post dishonest, either. It does nothing to help you argument, and as I said given the topics I would sell Nani... after Young and Valencia.

The simple fact is that there is no solid argument that I can see to explain why Young or Valencia merited to start over Nani so consistently following his play from 2010-12, in terms of on field production or overall play. It's not like either of those are tidy in possession or contribute to build up play. Valencia tracks back decently, but that is literally all I can come up with. Possession dies very regularly with all three, probably Young most of all.

beno619

glued wrote: »

Nani has started 14 games in the last two seasons. He does not get a consistent run to suggest he does is a complete fallacy. In the two seasons where Nani had a consistent run in the team he scored 9 goals and had 18 assists which placed him joint top with Tevez and Drogba in the goals scored/assisted chart. The following season 11/12 he was injured and played about 500 less minutes on the pitch but still managed to score 8 goals and assist 10 goals.

In the following season 2012/13 Ferguson didn't use him and was suffering with his ankle into the new season and it ruined his season. He only started 7 games. Moyes was just a disaster who didn't know how to use any players effectively.

The hate for Nani is bizarre. It's a myth that Nani is inconsistent because to be inconsistent you have to be involved in a consistent run of games. It's lazy analysis and the sort you would hear coming from a Phil Thompson or Charlie Nicholas. It's a fact that when Nani is involved in a consistent run of games over a season that he produces on the field for Manchester United.

+1000

This is the Nani debate in a nut shell, with proper runs in the side he is fantastic, he has played feck all football in the past 48 months because of injury.

Liam O

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Nani performed amazingly one season in seven. Didn't do a whole lot before that season, has done even less since.

From lazy wikipedia research, it appears he's scored about 40 goals in 220 games for United... for an attacking player that shoots as often as he does, is this enough?

Why don't you use his assist stats too? Like in his first season with Ronaldo, Tevez, Scholes etc. in the team he was only behind Rooney despite playing fewer games than most? He's a facilitator, strange how Rooney has suddenly become less prolific since Nani started getting his injuries right? Against the US he was putting quality cross after quality cross into the box and was Portugals best player imo. It's not his job to defend, or to score, it's just a bonus that he does both these things to an acceptable level.

RobertKK

I don't think it is hate for Nani, I think many believe we could do a lot better than Nani and if we can sell him then he should be sold.

The team is being overhauled and fresh blood on the wings would be no harm. We need to sell two wingers in my opinion - Young and Nani since we appear to be keeping Valencia for a while longer.
Januzaj is a bundle of potential and with stats similar to Ronaldo at the same age.
The rest - meh, don't inspire one. It is no coincidence we were linked with Muller - not happening and still linked with Reus though he says he is staying put. So we are linked with Depay.
The club is looking for wingers, we need to sell two of our current ones in my opinion.
Defending any of them bar Januzaj is rather pointless in my opinion. They all got their chances.

Mitch Connor

TheDoc wrote: »

The most obvious arguement is that the managers persisted with Valencia, where they did not persist with Nani. I don't speculate for a minute to know anything about football management, but from my point of view, it somewhat looks obvious why this persistence is kept.

I believe Rene M said that Nani is amazingly talented but utterly braindead. He, seemingly, has no idea himself why he does any given thing on the football pitch, good or bad. He doesn't understand his own decisions so can't learn from mistakes. So, it likely boils down to basic trust. If you have no idea what Nani is going to do, can you play him over someone who you can reasonably (!!) expect some level of performance or consistency out of.

For me, I would give nani his head and carry him if required, as I believe the positives would outweigh the negitives. But with millions upon millions resting on the smallest of margins, maybe that is why Fergie went negitive with Park/Valencia over Nani most of the time.

MagicIRL

It's not that people don't like Nani, or that people don't think he's any use, it's more of the fact that the midfield is in such a state that sacrifices have to be made. If Juve want Nani + Cash for Vidal, then Nani has to go.

Mitch Connor

MagicIRL wrote: »

It's not that people don't like Nani, or that people don't think he's any use, it's more of the fact that the midfield is in such a state that sacrifices have to be made. If Juve want Nani + Cash for Vidal, then Nani has to go.

Plus, if we are going 433, then the use for a typical winger reduces. That said, I would far prefer to see Nani wide in an attacking three than I would Valencia.

If we move away from 442, the balance requirements of the squad shift.

bangkok

TheDoc wrote: »

I remember this vividly. And I think everyone does. And I think that is part of the problem.

We all long for that form from Nani, some think it will require patience from the manager to give him a run of games, some think it was a flash in the pan, somethink it will never return.

It's what really is the emotional drive I think behind everyone that talks on this subject. Nani was at a point the most inform winger in Europe, and it just didn't last. So we look to ways, excuses, methods, to get that back.

The most obvious arguement is that the managers persisted with Valencia, where they did not persist with Nani. I don't speculate for a minute to know anything about football management, but from my point of view, it somewhat looks obvious why this persistence is kept.

When Valencia is in terrible form, he still works the line like a demon. He provides cover in a defensive capacity, that we can debate until the sun goes down in regards to his effectiveness at it, but he is always there.

When Nani is in rubbish form, he is pretty much non existent. A passenger, a void on the side of the pitch that is completely useless.

If you have two out of form players, which one would you choose? The one that you can somewhat rely on in terms of defensive work and effort, or the one who might, just might, do something incredible to snatch a game.

I know we like to think that it's a game from the movies, where you would go with the guy that could get you that one chance. But if evidence is to be taken into consideration, we can take it that managers prefer the guy who is going to somewhat stick to defensive duties.

We also need to consider we see nothing that goes on in the training ground, where so many decisions and ideas are formed. SO what I also take from it, is that while Valencia and Young were in poisonous form, Nani wasn't doing much better on the training ground.

You can bet your bollox if Nani was replicating any shred of good play in training, he would have been getting more starts ahead of Young and Valencia. So we can only draw from it, that he wasn't doing it in training either.

At some point we need to just draw a line under making excuses and accept some hard truths. Nani has a serious issue with consistency and decision making, and that simply cannot be carried for long periods in a team challenging for titles. It simply can't.

I think the same can apply for kagawa as well, hasn't done much in 2 years in a united shirt, always excuses being made for him, couple of flashes of good play here and there but generally he has been poor

beno619

TheDoc wrote: »

At some point we need to just draw a line under making excuses and accept some hard truths. Nani has a serious issue with consistency and decision making, and that simply cannot be carried for long periods in a team challenging for titles. It simply can't.

Nani's issue has been with injury. Injury hampers any attempt at obtaining some level of consistency.

TheDoc

glued wrote: »

Nani has started 14 games in the last two seasons. He does not get a consistent run to suggest he does is a complete fallacy.

I don't think anyone says he has. And I would factor in his injuries playing a part. But he has had chances. At this level, if you arn't performing when you get your chance, someone else is in the wings. We arn't some lower table team that can persist with one player with magic hoping he hits form. We have too many that can slot into attacking roles.

In the two seasons where Nani had a consistent run in the team he scored 9 goals and had 18 assists which placed him joint top with Tevez and Drogba in the goals scored/assisted chart. The following season 11/12 he was injured and played about 500 less minutes on the pitch but still managed to score 8 goals and assist 10 goals.

Your making the assumption that "Nani getting a consistent run, means we will get good form from him". Like I said, its the excuse that has formed into his strongest defence. You could easily argue that this was the peak of Nani's powers, that were noticed to have been a flash in the pan.

I don't believe this myself, but I'm just saying, there is no basis for either point. Ryan Babel had flashes of good form. Dirk Kuty has flashes of good form. Damien Duff had flashes of good form. The list goes on. Wingers tend to be for one reason or another some of the most volatile players in a football team. they come in and out of form and confidence, for what reason I don't know. But I don't think it boils down to simply just being given a run of games.

In the following season 2012/13 Ferguson didn't use him and was suffering with his ankle into the new season and it ruined his season. He only started 7 games. Moyes was just a disaster who didn't know how to use any players effectively.

OK so injured, and Fergie didn't play him much when he was fit. We can put that down to him maybe not being 100%, or maybe he was failing to replicate the form the manager expected for him to be started in the team?

Moyes got him a new contract, indicated he saw Nani as an integral part of his plans. The player echoing he had difficult spells with Ferguson and was looking forward to a new lease of life.

Obviously Moyes wasn't too impressed with what he saw on the training ground, from what might have been expectations from seeing him play against Everton.

Is it possible here there is maybe something to Nani we really don't know about, that makes him extremely difficult to select with confidence?

The hate for Nani is bizarre. It's a myth that Nani is inconsistent because to be inconsistent you have to be involved in a consistent run of games.

I'm sorry I'm just not sure this arguement actually holds water at this level of football. Where you have talent, highly paid, highly talented players waiting in the wings, just how does one stick with a player in patchy form, for games on end, in the hope that they come good.

If you play for a top club, and you get a chance, you need to take that chance pretty quickly, or be back out in the wings. This isn't a new developement in football. This is pretty much THE standard and base knowledge any player at a big club or squad will know.

This is an arguement I'd put against Kagawa. He hasn't grasped those chances. The excuses are irrelevant, its an easy get of jail card to excuse disappointing performances. When Kagawa did do well, he got his reward with a run of games.

It's lazy analysis and the sort you would hear coming from a Phil Thompson or Charlie Nicholas. It's a fact that when Nani is involved in a consistent run of games over a season that he produces on the field for Manchester United.

I think it's hardly lazy analysis. I'd call lazy you saying that last line as fact, when it's outragously not the case.

What evidence is there to support it?

Can someone point out, or explain to me, definitively, how for Nani, he requires a consistent run of games in order to be effective? Anyone, one shred of actual proof or anything that supports this, that holds ground and can't be picked to pieces.

If anyone can outline how Nani specifically requires an amount of games to become "inform" I'll be forever grateful, and we can put this arugement to bed once and for all.

Because I have a serious time trying to get my head around how he "requires" a run of games in order to be useful, while we completely dispel the notion that maybe, just maybe, Nani had a run of good form, that was the pinnacle of his abilities, and something that maybe, just maybe, he will never reach again.

Nani is a winger, and wingers behave like wingers. They will have mediorce spells, rubbish spells, and spells where they simply are just unstoppable. It's nothing to do with a run of games, its the nature of the beast.

The problem with Nani is that when he's not in his good form, he's absolutely horrendous on a football pitch.

I don't want to get brawled down into the Nani debate, I've kept away from them entirely. And the reason being is that I don't fall on either side of the arguement. I believe he is an excellent player with unique gifts and attributes we can use to our benefit, but that comes with the tradeoff that you will get spells of rubbish and patchy form from him, and you need to live with the decision making issue that is so obvious it hurts.

I'm not advocating to sell hi, I'm not advocating to keep him

What I would advocate here, is that we maybe just try establish a base by which is accurate and we can properly assess the player, rather then this fantasy notions that Nani requires a "consistent run of games" to be any use.

If that's the excuse, maybe I'm being swayed into the camp of Nani being no use. You can't have a player at a top club, that requires a big lenthy break you see in lower table teams, where they have 1-2 quality players in the squad who they will persist and persist with in the hope they hit form.

You cant afford that in a team looking to clench titles. And thats an arguement I've used against Valencia and Young aswell. in period before providing some results. That is the sort of stuff

MagicIRL

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Plus, if we are going 433, then the use for a typical winger reduces. That said, I would far prefer to see Nani wide in an attacking three than I would Valencia.

If we move away from 442, the balance requirements of the squad shift.

In a perfect world Juve would be interested in Valencia and not Nani but here we are. :pac:

irishfeen

Ducker on twitter saying United are monitoring Vidal but no move planned yet. ... Could yet be a long summer with that one.

jonnyfingers

Nani could fill the role that Robben does in the Dutch team. He's quick, technically strong and can score a goal. I also think both are selfish players who will look to score themselves before passing to a teammate.

However one thing I really like about Robben is his decision making, he seems to know when to take an extra touch before shooting or getting a cross in, and seems to get it right more than he gets it wrong. That almost justifies his selfishness. That's where I think Nani falls down, he'll just hit the thing, sometimes it will go in, most of the time it wont, and his selfishness in that case makes others annoyed with him. His 3 games for Portugal were a good example of this. I thought he played well and took his goal well but there were numerous occasions where his decision making was poor and he either lost possession or tried to shoot when a pass was the better option.

So he has an abundance of talent and could be brilliant in a LVG team, but I don't think his decision making will ever improve, as such we need to hope that he gets more of them right than wrong. Ideally I'd like to see him get a season under LVG and get a "decent run", if nothing to prove if he can or can't do it when given an extended chance. He's still also our best winger so I'd rather get rid of Young before him.

All I know is LVG will do what's best for his team. If he thinks keeping a winger like Nani is more valuable than getting Vidal and chooses not to go for player plus money deal then so be it. If he decides to offload Nani then also so be it. I will trust his decision.

deisedude

bangkok wrote: »

I think the same can apply for kagawa as well, hasn't done much in 2 years in a united shirt, always excuses being made for him, couple of flashes of good play here and there but generally he has been poor

I agree, far too easily muscled off the ball time and time again

Rayne Wooney

Just give Juve 70 million for Vidal and sit back while we win every trophy before us. Simples

Mantis Toboggan

The love for Nani on here is completely deluded!

glued

TheDoc wrote: »

Your making the assumption that "Nani getting a consistent run, means we will get good form from him". Like I said, its the excuse that has formed into his strongest defence. You could easily argue that this was the peak of Nani's powers, that were noticed to have been a flash in the pan.

It's not an assumption though. Nani, when given a consistent run in the side, has been very good for Manchester United.

I think selling him would be a massive mistake unless we get Alexis Sanchez because there aren't many players that offer natural width in the Premier League and Nani does that. Also Ferguson never really liked players that take risks with the ball. Maybe a year under van Gaal will prove the rest of his doubters wrong.

I think Nani, Rafael and Kagawa are going to have a year under van Gaal.

Crimson King

Nothing will happen until Chile are out if the WC. That's what happened with the Shaw move. He obviously agreed to the deal before he went away and as soon as he was back home negotiations resumed.

If indeed Vidal is the target then no movement will happen until he is no longer concentrating on the WC. In fact I would be shocked if any managers even allowed transfer talk between players, never mind players talking to their agents.

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Just give Juve 70 million for Vidal and sit back while we win every trophy before us. Simples

If the rumours of Woodward wanting to make a statement signing are true then this would satisfy that criteria, so I would not be surprised if the Cavani talk was all smoke and daggers and a move for a top midfielder was the real plan. IMO Pogba is much more likely the target seeing as the has just one season left on his contract and Juve not wanting to lose one of their stars for nowt.

Billy86

deisedude wrote: »

I agree, far too easily muscled off the ball time and time again

That's what happens when you buy a #10 and slap him on the left wing for 18 months. It's like buying Robben and trying to use him as a target man, and the same thing happened when Moyes made a show of himself in misusing Mata out wide initially. Given free reign to pass and move between themselves, the two showed some real promising interplay that I hope we look to build on this season.

But wingers they are not.

beno619

Buddy Holly wrote: »

The love for Nani on here is completely deluded!

I dont think anyone is overly in love, its just that there are actual reasons for his failings in the past 2 years, not the lazy "Nani is crap" posts.

Cookiemunster

Right then, enough of this Nani talk. Moyes for Galatasaray?

Eurosport.com EN ‏@EurosportCom_EN 7m

REALLY!? Our Turkish office reports that David Moyes is in Istanbul and could replace Roberto Mancini as Galatasaray manager.

TheDoc

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I believe Rene M said that Nani is amazingly talented but utterly braindead. He, seemingly, has no idea himself why he does any given thing on the football pitch, good or bad. He doesn't understand his own decisions so can't learn from mistakes. So, it likely boils down to basic trust. If you have no idea what Nani is going to do, can you play him over someone who you can reasonably (!!) expect some level of performance or consistency out of.

For me, I would give nani his head and carry him if required, as I believe the positives would outweigh the negatives. But with millions upon millions resting on the smallest of margins, maybe that is why Fergie went negitive with Park/Valencia over Nani most of the time.

Yeah thats my point, I think the selection issues with Nani has been maybe managersyou see in lower table teams, where they have 1-2 quality players in the squad who they will persist and persist with in the hope they hit form.

You cant afford that in a team looking to clench titles. And thats an arguement I've used against Valencia and Young aswell.

I can only draw from what I see, that maybe both managers have had a more favourible look on Valencias graft and defensive work over Nani's complete void.

you know the more I type obviously the more points and counter points run through my head. I can see why this turns into the debate that it does, I'm having it with myself in my own head as I type.

Cause while he might not defend well, while he might be a complete body of nothingness for 88 minutes in a game, he could just last one of those thunderbolts into the top corner, or skin someone alive and create a chance.

****it Nani, stop being a bollox and sort your **** out!

bullvine

Can you really afford to give a player a run of games though to come good, its not like hes an inexperienced player, most good players these days come back from injury or whatever, go into the team and within a couple of games are back to themselves.

markcahill1985

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Right then, enough of this Nani talk. Moyes for Galatasaray?

Eurosport.com EN ‏@EurosportCom_EN 7m

REALLY!? Our Turkish office reports that David Moyes is in Istanbul and could replace Roberto Mancini as Galatasaray manager.

Good move for him, hope he does well! Champions League club as he wanted

MagicIRL

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Right then, enough of this Nani talk. Moyes for Galatasaray?

Eurosport.com EN ‏@EurosportCom_EN 7m

REALLY!? Our Turkish office reports that David Moyes is in Istanbul and could replace Roberto Mancini as Galatasaray manager.

I'm sure Snjieder will love that!

bangkok

glued wrote: »

It's not an assumption though. Nani, when given a consistent run in the side, has been very good for Manchester United.

I think selling him would be a massive mistake unless we get Alexis Sanchez because there aren't many players that offer natural width in the Premier League and Nani does that. Also Ferguson never really liked players that take risks with the ball. Maybe a year under van Gaal will prove the rest of his doubters wrong.

I think Nani, Rafael and Kagawa are going to have a year under van Gaal.

Alex Ferguson?! He actually loved players to take risks, that's why he signed Nani Ronaldo etc

TheDoc

glued wrote: »

It's not an assumption though. Nani, when given a consistent run in the side, has been very good for Manchester United.

I think selling him would be a massive mistake unless we get Alexis Sanchez because there aren't many players that offer natural width in the Premier League and Nani does that. Also Ferguson never really liked players that take risks with the ball. Maybe a year under van Gaal will prove the rest of his doubters wrong.

I think Nani, Rafael and Kagawa are going to have a year under van Gaal.

I'm finding it hard to convey my point, and I'll apologise for that, as its going to draw this out longer.

But I'm trying to convey maybe being a little devils advocate, as to how we can equate a run of games = Nani's good form.

How can we not rule out, that Nani simply hit his peak, and a level he will never reach again?

I can't simplify my point to asking "OK, how many games equates to Nani being ready" cause that's impossible, but it's a part that does weigh in somewhat.

How long do you persist with the turgent, patchy formed Nani, before you are rewarded with the inform, blistering Nani.

Have we seen the top form Nani in recent memory? How do we know we will get it again?

Is it maybe the case he hasn't had much gametime, apart from injury, because management and coaches believe the top notch Nani isn't anywhere to be seen?

Also, as I've never really engaged in the Nani debates before, if this has all being covered, let me know, and I can essentially stop, cause it might be just rehashing the same old questions and same old answers.

The Nani Paradox....mikey can you make one of your t-shirts with this?

bucketybuck

TheDoc wrote: »

Sorry, but playing for a club of United stature, you simply can't be afforded to start five games, in the hope you'll hit form for games 6,7,8 , slide back into your mediocirity then come out again.

Unless you are Antonio Valencia of course.

Nani has serious issues with consistency. He always has massive issues with decision making, and can be pretty abject in the final third. This is something, unlike Ronaldo, he never shook off in his developement, and is still there.

For every one game he does well, there is about five that are pretty rubbish.

What utter rubbish. You have decided that when on form Nani goes missing for five games at a time and its simply a load of old rubbish. When given games Nani is no less consistent than any top attacker and far more productive than most.

You already have five billion TLDR words written since that post and they are all based on a fallacy.