Opening of the Soccer Forum for the World Cup?

Dav

The mods serve as our "voice of the community" when we have discussions around any specific changes in any specific forum. In this case there was a chat, there were and are still several reservations as to whether or not it will go as planned and so we're all well aware that it may not work out. As I said, we roll it all back if it doesn't work. This wasn't bumped into the general soccer feedback thread because honestly Declan said it to me at the start of last week that we might be able to adapt the work that was one on the election stuff for this purpose (and he's our product manager, coming up with these sorts of ideas and getting them done is his job), so there was a pretty quick turnaround based on an idea that we figured was well worth our time - to try and engage and "spec up" a project like this with the help of several hundred strong Soccer Community would have meant we'd still be figuring out what was best by the end of the tournament. No one wins in that scenario. Some of the comments here both for and against the idea only serve to prove this point for me.

The widget is contained in a Notice, that should have been dismiss-able and wasn't - a mistake that I've corrected now - sorry about that. So if you don't want to see it, click the small red X on the top right and it'll disappear. We'll undoubtedly be refining the design of it over the week, it's a big "basic" I think and as noted already, it doesn't have Dark theme support (it appears using the standard white/blue colouring for the moment). Being late in Friday afternoon, we'd rather not make any more changes to it, but we'll certainly be coming back to it on Monday.

Dades

gandalf wrote: »

What you are proposing is saying to a vibrant community on boards "This is how it is, like it or lump it" with Dav saying one of the primary reasons for the change was to allow the "team" test out their new notice board widget on us as well. I find that quite unacceptable.

Actually, after the fact I stated my preference for separate forum. I love the World Cup but have no interest in posting in Soccer.

Ken.

Why not create a new sub off soccer. Call it major championships. Everyone has access(except banned people obviously) Open it a month before a tournament and close it a week or 2 after the final and don't open it again till the next major finals in 2 years. Soccer still stays the way it was but any world cup/euro finals talk goes in the sub.

Lovely Bloke

Dav wrote: »

First of all, as of about 10 minutes ago, you may see a new addition on top of the soccer forum.

yes, an ad.

Thanks for that, a new expanded Soccer Forum with ads.

And this has nothing to do with money.

At least have the balls to call it what it is for jaysus sake, are there no limits to how far Distilled Media will stoop?

El Weirdo

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

yes, an ad.

Thanks for that, a new expanded Soccer Forum with ads.

And this has nothing to do with money.

At least have the balls to call it what it is for jaysus sake, are there no limits to how far Distilled Media will stoop?

Yeah, because this is only a short hop away from killing millions of babies and then gassing their parents.

5starpool

Trying something new in any forum (with the agreement of mods of course) is always good imo. If it doesn't work then lesson learned. I think it'll be fine though generally. I'm glad the thing at the top of the forum had an x button to dismiss it though (which I did straightaway) as it would have been really irritating with it there. I've no problems with anything done so far anyhow, as I'm always in favour of less restrictions, not more.

Steve

Wait, what? the world cup isn't till next year

Ah, sorry, soccer has one as well.. how nice..



/runs..

Zaph

There is only one World Cup. Accept no imitations.

Steve

Zaph wrote: »

There is only one World Cup. Accept no imitations.

Absolutely.. 100% agree.

Calhoun

I am not a member of the forum but see the potential it has to grow the presence of not only the soccer forum but boards in general by having a place to chat about a world event like this .

I don't know what it is with this forum at times but certain elements come across as bad as unions with the us versus them attitude, I am glad common sense has prevailed and this was attempted.

LuckyLloyd

It's convenient to paint those of us demonstrating reluctance at the change as 'snobby' or 'fight the powah' or 'entitled' or whatever else you want to throw around.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=152971

The system exists for a reason. It wasn't dreamed up for the craic. Of the voices questioning this decision on here and in the soccer forum thread you have former mods of the forum and long term and high volume respected contributers to the forum. Could we be wrong? Of course. 5starpool is in favour of the change for an example of a long term poster over there who has seen the place evolve.

So we could be wrong, but we're not being overly precious for the sake of it. Some of us value the place and see that the structures within it have produced a unique football forum in the context of what the Internet offers for football discussion. It isn't perfect, it never will be, but it is in needs of tweaks and incremental changes to the structures not an outright binning of them...in my opinion at least.

Finally and most importantly, the forum is what it is because of a will to do what was right and required rather than what may be most commercially viable. Beware the opinions of product managers focussed on ad revenue and traffic volume relative to the needs of a posting community.

Gordon

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

yes, an ad.

Thanks for that, a new expanded Soccer Forum with ads.

And this has nothing to do with money.

At least have the balls to call it what it is for jaysus sake, are there no limits to how far Distilled Media will stoop?

Calm down, don't want to see you burst a blood vessel. Forgetting the fact that you can close the top section, surely you don't have a problem with boards making money? It pays for stuff like wages and even the boards soccer team's sponsorship doesn't it? As for the fact that you think this has been done to place an ad, I disagree.

The soccer forum's access change was years ago, no harm in trying something new out for a while, and if it fails it can be reverted.

Calhoun

I think if you are a casual watcher of the feedback forum, you will observe of late allot of very angry soccer forum posts. Normally it is related to how the moderating is going, either too harsh or not as consistent but in this case it is around a temporary trial designed to enhance the community and site overall.

I see what you are saying about behavior on the forum as before it nearly took it down (the forum) but that was 10 years ago and before strict moderation was in place. The fact that the mods are willing to give it a go will mean that the place wont be shut down as its "too much work" as the mods are the ones opening the tap, they can surely shut it off.

I don't believe commercial viability and doing whats right for the forum are mutually exclusive, you can grow commercial viability and make a forum a better place. What i don't like however is that elements of the community feel they have more rights/ownership to how things are done than boards themselves. It should be a working relationship between both sides working towards a common goal, obviously the boards management at times may make decisions as they own the site.

gandalf

Calhoun wrote: »

I think if you are a casual watcher of the feedback forum, you will observe of late allot of very angry soccer forum posts. Normally it is related to how the moderating is going, either too harsh or not as consistent but in this case it is around a temporary trial designed to enhance the community and site overall.

Soccer always gets people emotions up. From my years of experience in modding the forum it was a lot more work than any of the other high traffic and high profile forums I moderated.

I see what you are saying about behavior on the forum as before it nearly took it down (the forum) but that was 10 years ago and before strict moderation was in place. The fact that the mods are willing to give it a go will mean that the place wont be shut down as its "too much work" as the mods are the ones opening the tap, they can surely shut it off.

Actually I'd like to correct you there. There was draconian moderating of the Soccer forum before it was locked down ten years ago. The main problem that necessitated the whole access control system being put in place was that there were a very small number of banned posters re-registering and causing chaos.

I think with proper consultation of the community no one would have had a problem with opening up of the forum. However as has been put forward by a few here a good middle ground would have been a sub forum open to all for the world cup. It doesn't appear to have been in the developers mind at all when they decided to use the new widget developed for the elections on the world cup though.

I am actually surprised that a commercial organisation like Distilled Media did not make plans for the World Cup and everything appears to have been at the last minute. I mean if there was thought put into this then how to maximise the World Cup could have been floated during the soccer forum feedback thread that was out up at the end of last month.

I don't believe commercial viability and doing whats right for the forum are mutually exclusive, you can grow commercial viability and make a forum a better place. What i don't like however is that elements of the community feel they have more rights/ownership to how things are done than boards themselves. It should be a working relationship between both sides working towards a common goal, obviously the boards management at times may make decisions as they own the site.

This is the fundamental issue. Just judging some of the responses here you would feel it is a like it or lump it situation. With a bit more thought this could have been a win win situation.

At the end of the day boards.ie provide the medium and does pay for it but we provide the content that drives the eyeballs to the screens and the adverts and hence the revenue. Sometimes I think the back office people in Distilled Media forget this.

Calhoun

gandalf wrote: »

Actually I'd like to correct you there. There was draconian moderating of the Soccer forum before it was locked down ten years ago. The main problem that necessitated the whole access control system being put in place was that there were a very small number of banned posters re-registering and causing chaos.

Well it was the mod team that decided to have a relook at this, i assume if they made the decision they are the ones that could close the door on it if things went wrong.

I think with proper consultation of the community no one would have had a problem with opening up of the forum. However as has been put forward by a few here a good middle ground would have been a sub forum open to all for the world cup. It doesn't appear to have been in the developers mind at all when they decided to use the new widget developed for the elections on the world cup though.

Well they are the owners is it not their decision to try new things, i assume one of the reason for the widget was to trial the advertisement potential of it.

I am actually surprised that a commercial organisation like Distilled Media did not make plans for the World Cup and everything appears to have been at the last minute. I mean if there was thought put into this then how to maximise the World Cup could have been floated during the soccer forum feedback thread that was out up at the end of last month.

This is the fundamental issue. Just judging some of the responses here you would feel it is a like it or lump it situation. With a bit more thought this could have been a win win situation.

At the end of the day boards.ie provide the medium and does pay for it but we provide the content that drives the eyeballs to the screens and the adverts and hence the revenue. Sometimes I think the back office people in Distilled Media forget this.

Honestly, as you can see from a few of the posts there seems to be a chip on the shoulder in how much should actually be shared with posters. The content and tone of some of the posts, gives you insight into why they didn't go directly to the posters with this. Nothing would have happened as allot of time would have been spent arguing about distilled media trying to make money off the back of the poor old poster.

I don't even post there but after seeing some of the feedback threads on here i can get a pretty good idea how that would have gone. Things change and people need to accept that or maybe move on to a place that makes them happy.

Lovely Bloke

Gordon wrote: »

even the boards soccer team's sponsorship doesn't it?

I can't actually remember the last time Boards.ie/Distilled Media gave actual sponsorship to the team (Dav was involved in getting EA Sports on board as jersey sponsors about 4 years ago or so, and did try recently to get companies involved, to no avail, but the last time Boards.ie gave money, despite an agreement to do so? I have literally no idea).

So you should really get your facts in line before throwing out lines in an attempt to be smart, thanks very much. The players and myself pay for that team, in full, out of our own pockets, and have the Boards.ie Crest on our chests, so in fact, we get the Boards.ie brand out there, every week, hail, rain or shine.

gandalf

Calhoun wrote: »

Well it was the mod team that decided to have a relook at this, i assume if they made the decision they are the ones that could close the door on it if things went wrong.

Err I think the mod team were "asked". They themselves didn't decide to relook at this.

Well they are the owners is it not their decision to try new things, i assume one of the reason for the widget was to trial the advertisement potential of it.

Of course but again for a site that relies on user content it should be good practice to share what they plan to do with the community.

Honestly, as you can see from a few of the posts there seems to be a chip on the shoulder in how much should actually be shared with posters. The content and tone of some of the posts, gives you insight into why they didn't go directly to the posters with this. Nothing would have happened as allot of time would have been spent arguing about distilled media trying to make money off the back of the poor old poster.

Well when you foist change on a group of people at short notice without any input especially when a feedback thread has just closed are you surprised that some people have their backs up.

I don't even post there but after seeing some of the feedback threads on here i can get a pretty good idea how that would have gone. Things change and people need to accept that or maybe move on to a place that makes them happy.

So you are making a judgement on a community that you don't really interact with.

Calhoun

gandalf wrote: »

So you are making a judgement on a community that you don't really interact with.

Not really no but the manner in which folk are arguing their corner doesn't really give off the vibe of work with me, that is all i am saying. If you didnt want others involved in this you shouldnt have aired this on feedback but taken it to PM.

I can understand engaging with the community on big issues but something that is a trial for the length of the world cup, i dont see what the big deal is.

Do you think maybe as your an ex mod your being a little bit over sensitive?

gandalf

Calhoun wrote: »

Not really no but the manner in which folk are arguing their corner doesn't really give off the vibe of work with me, that is all i am saying. If you didnt want others involved in this you shouldnt have aired this on feedback but taken it to PM.

Well typically when something is foisted on a community without consultation this happens and far from me interacting by myself it does effect quite a number of community members. Some of them have interacted on this thread.

I can understand engaging with the community on big issues but something that is a trial for the length of the world cup, i dont see what the big deal is.

Again if it was approached and sold the right way this wouldn't have been so contentious. The fact that it appears to have been an afterthought to change the forum in quite a fundamental way is also quite disconcerting.

I am sure it is not a big deal to you as you are someone who doesn't really invest in the forum.

Do you think maybe as your an ex mod your being a little bit over sensitive?

Possibly, I do remember quite clearly the mess that the forum can become if people aren't careful.

Will I Amnt

It wasn't really planned out well at all was it?
First of all we are told the soccer forum charter was being replaced with the general sitewide rules and regs which is for some reason given the label of temporary World Cup charter. The soccer forum charter is removed from the stickies yet posters are still being punished under the soccer forum charter that is supposedly not in place.

Now the old charter is back in the stickies along with the new charter and the OP of the new charter is edited with a link to the old charter which most people that have read it over the last week wouldn't be aware of

Why on earth was the original soccer forum charter replaced in the first place?
If I go into a forum I don't usually frequent, I have to comply with the charter of that particular forum. Why is it different in this case?

It's messy, confusing and seems to be just made up as we go along.

Lovely Bloke

It's working brilliantly, these low-post count additions are really upping the quality

rolleyes

also this absolutely delightful contribution

Mickeroo

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

It's working brilliantly, these low-post count additions are really upping the quality

rolleyes

also this absolutely delightful contribution

It's been going fine actually, our workload hasn't increased much at all tbh even though traffic has increased greatly.

You link to that thread yet the "Hotties" thread is much more off topic, required mod intervention on several occasions and populated mostly by regulars.

The post, which was reported not very long before you posted I might add, has been actioned so no problem there. People not new to the forum have managed to get themselves carded since the tournament started too.

Will I Amnt

So is the usual soccer forum charter in place or not?
If it is, what was the whole idea behind the temporary one and why is it still there?

Mickeroo

Will I Amnt wrote: »

So is the usual soccer forum charter in place or not?
If it is, what was the whole idea behind the temporary one and why is it still there?

Both charters are in place as of last night, all the WC charter states is rather than your usual season long totting up process it's now 2 yellows equals a 1 month ban. The rules on trolling/abuse/backseat modding etc. are still the same.

The main charter was removed originally to make it easier, but then we realised we had nowhere to refer people to regarding the rules on abuse etc. so we put it up again.

It was pretty much a mistake on our part and I apologise for any confusion caused.

TL/DR: Basically the over all rules are the same but there is now a 2 strike rule for the duration of the tournament.

Will I Amnt

Mickeroo wrote: »

Both charters are in place as of last night, all the WC charter states is rather than your usual season long totting up process it's now 2 yellows equals a 1 month ban. The rules on trolling/abuse/backseat modding etc. are still the same.

The main charter was removed originally to make it easier, but then we realised we had nowhere to refer people to regarding the rules on abuse etc. so we put it up again.

It was pretty much a mistake on our part and I apologise for any confusion caused.

TL/DR: Basically the over all rules are the same but there is now a 2 strike rule for the duration of the tournament.

Cool. Maybe the people of the forum should be made aware of this?
Seeing as the thread about the new charter was locked and most people that have read it may not go back and read it again thinking there is nothing new there.

Darkglasses

Mickeroo wrote: »

The main charter was removed originally to make it easier, but then we realised we had nowhere to refer people to regarding the rules on abuse etc. so we put it up again.

The main charter is very, very long for boards. We wanted to bring the forum more in line with the rest of the site (and fora in general) by making it as simple as possible for the expected traffic from people who had never used the soccer forum before. Not quite to the extreme of the suggestions in the feedback to only have one rule ("don't be a dick"), but a step in that direction.

The overwhelming majority (as in, very very overwhelming majority) of the trouble has come from people who already had access. I will still reserve my full judgement until the end of the tournament, but I'm still pretty happy with how it's going so far. This isn't an exact science, we can't predict everything. I'm glad the move was made to put the full charter back, for what it's worth. Hasn't been an avalanche of cards/reports like some people expected.

5starpool

On a slight tangent, was there any official "here is what we are changing" type post after the forum feedback thread a few weeks back? Is it still being decided/discussed? Apologies if I've just missed it, but this is as good a place to ask as any I guess.

Turtyturd

I think the answer to that was posted by th C-Mod within the first few pages.

Bobeagleburger

5starpool wrote: »

On a slight tangent, was there any official "here is what we are changing" type post after the forum feedback thread a few weeks back? Is it still being decided/discussed? Apologies if I've just missed it, but this is as good a place to ask as any I guess.

Don't think it's been posted yet. If it has it's gone below my radar too.

MugMugs

Am I wrong here or was the OP about the "potential" fall out as a result of the opening of the soccer forum?

We're about a week into the WC now and the Mods are openly stating that most of the problems encountered are from those with previous access.

There's a very easy way to spot a re reg on a jolly to troll and they're dealt with usually before they even get into the soccer forum.

The charter revision is proving effective as the DRP can show.

So, what's the actual problem here? It's open season, Boards are potentially attracting new users (and revenue) and there's the potential to expand the current user base.

What's the issue?