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#end fathers day-apparently is oppressive!
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I presume you mean this person? She is in no way a prominent Feminist. To use an analogy from American politics, she's the rabid Tea Party member ranting on YouTube about death panels and socialism. All members of a political movement aren't obliged to formally decry every insane statement by fringe members of their group.
Well, it would make sense that more women than men would be turned off by the frequent sexual violence in GoT. It doesn't particularly bother me, I really enjoy the series/books but I know a lot of women who are really uncomfortable with the way that sexual violence is portrayed in the show. Also, the Guardian piece was responding to recent figures that showed that TWD *was* more popular among women that GoT, her hypothesis as to why was as valid as any other.
If you're referring to the hashtag, Jezebel has already pointed out that it's a hoax and that the premise is ridiculous. EndFathersDay Was Brought To You By Trolls
Hi Aurum,
Thank you for the links - I take it then that the person who you describe as being in no way a prominent Feminist was instantly slated by Feminists everywhere for undermining your image? Have they distanced themselves from her or simply accepted the remarks?
As for The Walking Dead - there actually is some sexual violence in it but that's besides the point. My girlfriend believes she doesn't need a Feminazi to decide what's good for her to watch on TV. Indeed for a group of people who often complain how often they're spoken down to, I find it ironic that Feminists are usually the one doing it most to women!
As for these being a hoax, the very reason it caught on was because Femtards regularly come out with those sort of tripe on a regular basis. Perhaps if you're a feminist you might want to think about why people thought it was so plausible?
As for Jezebel, I stopped reading her after she got behind the idiots who were stalking Richard Dawkins for telling a girl to grow up about some man leering after her in a lift, so you'll forgive me if I don't defer her to her authority.
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Have moderate men's rights activists (the majority) publicly distanced themselves from the woman-hating crackposts?Recondite49 wrote: »Hi Aurum,
Thank you for the links - I take it then that the person who you describe as being in no way a prominent Feminist was instantly slated by Feminists everywhere for undermining your image? Have they distanced themselves from her or simply accepted the remarks?
I don't know. And I don't care. Because I know they don't agree with them - and that is enough. I'm a grown-up and not so needy that I require blatant affirmation of it.
Wow... your girlfriend is like... the vast majority of people...My girlfriend believes she doesn't need a Feminazi to decide what's good for her to watch on TV.
Jezebel is a publication, not a woman. It is too extreme a lot of the time and I don't like it.As for Jezebel, I stopped reading her after she got behind the idiots who were stalking Richard Dawkins for telling a girl to grow up about some man leering after her in a lift, so you'll forgive me if I don't defer her to her authority.0 -
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Have moderate men's rights activists (the majority) publicly distanced themselves from the woman-hating crackposts?
I don't know. And I don't care. Because I know they don't agree with them - and that is enough. I'm a grown-up and not so needy that I require blatant affirmation of it.
Wow... your girlfriend is like... the vast majority of people...
Jezebel is a publication, not a woman. It is too extreme a lot of the time and I don't like it.
Hi Magaggie,
I agree with you about Jezebel, it's probably best to have publications like these in order to give Feminists enough rope to choke themselves with though.
As for my girlfriend being like most people, you're right too. I've noticed when debating issues with Feminists, when they find their positions are untenable (which is almost always), they resort to saying I'm just speaking from the position of the privileged because I'm a man - what was heartening in the case of the Guardian Article was to see the number of women who are fed up to the back teeth of being told my Feminists what they should like and why - and I am inclined to agree.
When you take the time to learn about Feminist campaigns, particularly those online, you find that the hypocrisy is as blatant as it's extreme. The woman I mentioned who wanted to commit virtual genocide against men for instance - her comment barely raised an eyebrow. Someone makes a comment about dressing conservatively (a well meaning if poorly worded piece of advice) and the next thing you know the streets are flooded with so-called Slutwalks.
Double standards much? 0 -
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Recondite49 wrote: »Hi Magaggie,
I agree with you about Jezebel, it's probably best to have publications like these in order to give Feminists enough rope to choke themselves with though.
As for my girlfriend being like most people, you're right too. I've noticed when debating issues with Feminists, when they find their positions are untenable (which is almost always), they resort to saying I'm just speaking from the position of the privileged because I'm a man - what was heartening in the case of the Guardian Article was to see the number of women who are fed up to the back teeth of being told my Feminists what they should like and why - and I am inclined to agree.
When you take the time to learn about Feminist campaigns, particularly those online, you find that the hypocrisy is as blatant as it's extreme. The woman I mentioned who wanted to commit virtual genocide against men for instance - her comment barely raised an eyebrow. Someone makes a comment about dressing conservatively (a well meaning if poorly worded piece of advice) and the next thing you know the streets are flooded with so-called Slutwalks.
Double standards much?
Nah, I don't believe your girlfriend exists either. :pac:0 -
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Personally, I tend credit people with having enough intelligence to know that when I say I'm a feminist, that it doesn't mean I subscribe to such wholely ridiculous (and often fictional) viewpoints.
And also, what do you expect feminists to do? That every time some random kook posts something on Twitter, we should be contractually oblidged to make statements in unison decrying them?
Hi Links,
An interesting question - I would hope you don't hold ridiculous or fictional viewpoints. All I would say is that you don't have much in common then with the mainstream Feminist movements.
Of course any crank can say all men are rapists on Twitter. However when it's appearing in mainstream newspapers I would expect Feminists to make some kind of statement e.g That actually the number of rape scenes in Game of Thrones actually isn't a gender issue and women should be allowed to watch what they want, not too much to ask I hope? 0 -
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Nah, I don't believe your girlfriend exists either. :pac:
My girlfriend doesn't identify as a Feminist precisely because of people who want to try and turn sex scenes in a TV program into a Feminist issue. I think this is probably why we don't see many of these reasonable minded Feminists we've talked so much about - any woman with sense keeps the modern Feminist movement at arm's length. 0 -
Yeh you keep saying that. The only place I see such debates are on Boards (because I couldn't be dealing with those kind of debates otherwise) and I don't see those caricatures of feminists here at all thankfully.Recondite49 wrote: »As for my girlfriend being like most people, you're right too. I've noticed when debating issues with Feminists, when they find their positions are untenable (which is almost always), they resort to saying I'm just speaking from the position of the privileged because I'm a man
"Heartening"? Why are you so keen to believe most feminists are crackpots? And it's hardly new or unusual for reasonable women not to want to be misrepresented by them.what was heartening in the case of the Guardian Article was to see the number of women who are fed up to the back teeth of being told my Feminists what they should like and why - and I am inclined to agree.
Oh yeh the ones that are used as a stick to beat all feminists with?When you take the time to learn about Feminist campaigns, particularly those online
And loon stuff is said against women by the male equivalent of the feminist extremists yet there's no huge storm about it because it's not even worth acknowledging. ":)"you find that the hypocrisy is as blatant as it's extreme. The woman I mentioned who wanted to commit virtual genocide against men for instance - her comment barely raised an eyebrow. Someone makes a comment about dressing conservatively (a well meaning if poorly worded piece of advice) and the next thing you know the streets are flooded with so-called Slutwalks.
Double standards much?
Have a look at the thread about being unemployed and on dating sites - and you will see it ain't the women in there making all the horrible claims about the opposite sex.0 -
Recondite49 wrote: »My girlfriend doesn't identify as a Feminist precisely because of people who want to try and turn sex scenes in a TV program into a Feminist issue. I think this is probably why we don't see many of these reasonable minded Feminists we've talked so much about - any woman with sense keeps the modern Feminist movement at arm's length.
Still not buying it.0 -
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Silly to choose the extremists as a reason not to identify as something.Recondite49 wrote: »My girlfriend doesn't identify as a Feminist precisely because of people who want to try and turn sex scenes in a TV program into a Feminist issue.
The reason I don't identify as one is because there are issues that affect people of all persuasions, but that doesn't mean I don't agree with some moderate feminist ideology.
Oh I see loads. But... confirmation bias is a hell of a thing.I think this is probably why we don't see many of these reasonable minded Feminists we've talked so much about
Are you saying modern feminism just = the crackpots?any woman with sense keeps the modern Feminist movement at arm's length.
Oh I just saw your post above. You are. ":)"0 -
Recondite49 wrote: »Hi Links,
An interesting question - I would hope you don't hold ridiculous or fictional viewpoints. All I would say is that you don't have much in common then with the mainstream Feminist movements.
Of course any crank can say all men are rapists on Twitter. However when it's appearing in mainstream newspapers I would expect Feminists to make some kind of statement e.g That actually the number of rape scenes in Game of Thrones actually isn't a gender issue and women should be allowed to watch what they want, not too much to ask I hope?
The mainstream feminist movements aren't "reduce the male population by 90%" just so you know
I love Game of Thrones, but it's honestly tame. I've watched plenty of things that would leave the average GoT watcher a quivering mess. The thing is though, freedom of speech means that if a paper wants to publish an opinion piece criticizing the show, they're free to do so. Fancy that?
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Recondite49 wrote: »Perhaps my girlfriend will vanish from existence due to the sheer power of your cynicism, or perhaps I spoke to her two minutes ago about the discussion we're having now. Have you heard of the ad hominem fallacy incidentally?
Ad feminem, you chauvinist pig!!!!!!
(not that it applies, unless you meant phallusy?)0 -
The mainstream feminist movements aren't "reduce the male population by 90%" just so you know
I love Game of Thrones, but it's honestly tame. I've watched plenty of things that would leave the average GoT watcher a quivering mess. The thing is though, freedom of speech means that if a paper wants to publish an opinion piece criticizing the show, they're free to do so. Fancy that?
Hi Links,
Naturally any journalist is within their right to criticise a TV show. I think my girlfriend's and other women's objection was the idea that the fact GOT may contains scenes of sexual violence was a) automatically a gender issue and b) was therefore less suitable for women to watch. Can't women decide for themselves?
I was delighted the article was published, it exposed the double standards of modern feminist dogma, so hope we see more to come! 0 -
Ad feminem, you chauvinist pig!!!!!!
(not that it applies, unless you meant phallusy?)
I've always admired people who use multiple exclamation marks. Some might say it's the sign of an unbalanced mind but if you need to get something of your chest go for it. I won't lose any sleep. 0 -
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Are you seriously questioning that there are misogynists who misrepresent the men's rights movement?Recondite49 wrote: »Could you be more specific about this? What loon stuff did you have in mind?
So you keep telling us. And we know. But my point was: you're decrying the way it's not publicly condemned, yet the equivalent from some men isn't publicly condemned either, because most people are not needy enough to require this.I certainly don't have to look to fringe dating sites to see Feminists making untrue and unfair accusations about men.0 -
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Silly to choose the extremists as a reason not to identify as something.
The reason I don't identify as one is because there are issues that affect people of all persuasions, but that doesn't mean I don't agree with some moderate feminist ideology.
Oh I see loads. But... confirmation bias is a hell of a thing.
Are you saying modern feminism just = the crackpots?
Oh I just saw your post above. You are. ":)"
I've heard the reasoning before that we're just dealing with a few fringe nutters but as I said when it's the mainstream Feminists using social media and national newspapers as their mouthpiece, I think it's worth taking a step back and asking if we're really judging the many by the few.
Yes of course, they represent a handful of people as Feminists themselves represent only a small number of women. As I said in my experience, most women have more sense (as you can see from the comments I mentioned on the Guardian's Facebook page above for instance).
You can also look at some of the rhetoric and see that on the face of it, it seems quite plausible and reasonable. Indeed most Feminists I debate say the problem is I haven't learned enough about modern Feminism - I would say I have learned plenty to be going on with, thanks... 0 -
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At the end of the day you'll always find some extremist loons claiming to speak for every movement. Best solution I've always found is to either ignore or laugh at them.
I've heard this argument before from Christians who say that they're not responsible for Fundamentalists who want the dogma of Creationism taught in schools for instance. When you ask them to publicly condemn it though... 0 -
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Recondite49 wrote: »I've heard this argument before from Christians who say that they're not responsible for Fundamentalists who want the dogma of Creationism taught in schools for instance. When you ask them to publicly condemn it though...
That is the problem when you only consult your imaginary mainstream feminists and your imaginary Christians - you get your own fears and neuroses projected back like a slap in the face from a boomerang.0 -
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Recondite49 wrote: »I've heard this argument before from Christians who say that they're not responsible for Fundamentalists who want the dogma of Creationism taught in schools for instance. When you ask them to publicly condemn it though...
Well Christianity is split up into all sorts of sects so it might be a bit much of asking people of Sect A to publicly condemn the people of Sect B. But that's probably a topic best explored elsewhere.
Although I hate to ask, you do understand that there is quite some difference between publicly condemning something and ignoring or laughing at it?0 -
Are you seriously questioning that there are misogynists who misrepresent the men's rights movement?
So you keep telling us. And we know. But my point was: you're decrying the way it's not publicly condemned, yet the equivalent from some men isn't publicly condemned either, because most people are not needy enough to require this.
Hi maggagie,
I agree it's painful to have to repeat things but I'm always happy to do so if the point isn't being made sufficiently. It's been a while since I publicly discussed Feminazism so forgive me if I wasn't clear.
Naturally many MRA's are hateful towards women. I have noted that Feminists never seem to get into trouble for saying they're sexually frustrated as opposed to men who say Feminists just need a good hard... I don't insist upon this theory incidentally!
It seems to me that if you want to paint people claiming to be part of your movement as fringe nutters or extremists the very least you can do is publicly distance yourself from their remarks. At best expel them from your movement.
The MRA's are sidelined even more than the Feminists simply because there's little public support for the belief that men are in need of having their rights championed. I am happy to publicly disavow them incidentally, the ones I spoke to were very scary.0 -
Recondite49 wrote: »Hi Links,
Naturally any journalist is within their right to criticise a TV show. I think my girlfriend's and other women's objection was the idea that the fact GOT may contains scenes of sexual violence was a) automatically a gender issue and b) was therefore less suitable for women to watch. Can't women decide for themselves?
I was delighted the article was published, it exposed the double standards of modern feminist dogma, so hope we see more to come!
Greetings and salutations Recondite,
Can't women decide for themselves what they think are issues that effect them are worth discussing? But I'd imagine that while the average viewer might not have experienced being burned to death by a dragon or killed by a white walker, but that a portion of the women who watch it have experienced sexual violence in their lives and may find such scenes deeply upsetting and therefor feel it is an issue relavent to them. I don't know how many of the men watching the show were ever involved in trail by combat, but it might be less than the amount of women who experienced sexual violence. I'll need to see more solid figures before making an absolute statement to that, but you can see what I'm getting at.0 -
It's "sense" not to agree with women being affected negatively because of their gender? Surely anyone who's sensible and fair would embrace this? (And ditto when men's gender affects them negatively). This is all feminism is. It can happily stand apart from the extremists - and it can be interpreted without *any* putting down of men. It's very telling when someone keeps on insisting that the extremism is the ideology in and of itself.Recondite49 wrote: »I've heard the reasoning before that we're just dealing with a few fringe nutters but as I said when it's the mainstream Feminists using social media and national newspapers as their mouthpiece, I think it's worth taking a step back and asking if we're really judging the many by the few.
Yes of course, they represent a handful of people as Feminists themselves represent only a small number of women. As I said in my experience, most women have more sense (as you can see from the comments I mentioned on the Guardian's Facebook page above for instance).
By your logic, your non condemnation of internet misogyny means you support it.Recondite49 wrote: »I've heard this argument before from Christians who say that they're not responsible for Fundamentalists who want the dogma of Creationism taught in schools for instance. When you ask them to publicly condemn it though... 0 -
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It's "sense" not to agree with women being affected negatively because of their gender? Surely anyone who's sensible and fair would embrace this? (And ditto when men's gender affects them negatively). This is all feminism is. It can happily stand apart from the extremists - and it can be interpreted without *any* putting down of men. It's very telling when someone keeps on insisting that the extremism is the ideology in and of itself.
By your logic, your non condemnation of internet misogyny means you support it.
Hi magaggie,
Show me any instances of internet misogyny, I'll be happy to condemn them across the board. If I were an MRA I'd also be happy to reel someone in but I had a bad experience with them.
As for the ideal that Feminism can be achieved without putting down men, I am inclined to agree. My issue is with modern Western Feminism - I doubt Pankhurst would have much good to say about it. I think the protests taking place in India at the moment are an excellent example of a country that could use a good deal more of the Feminism you're describing. Incidentally have there been many sympathy protests by Western Feminists to show solidarity for their oppressed sisters? Not seen anything in the papers about that so far - I am not being funny I could well have missed it as I've not been well this week.0 -
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