#end fathers day-apparently is oppressive!

Links234

Recondite49 wrote: »

The MRA's are sidelined even more than the Feminists simply because there's little public support for the belief that men are in need of having their rights championed. I am happy to publicly disavow them incidentally, the ones I spoke to were very scary.

I've no problem recognising that there are quite serious issues facing men, including but not limited to parental rights, domestic violence, and mental health issues. I don't base my opinion of how serious or important these issues are on the rantings of the likes of Paul Elam, or any other nutcase MRA.

Shakespeare's Sister

Recondite49 wrote: »

Show me any instances of internet misogyny, I'll be happy to condemn them across the board.

You... are not seriously doubting it's available are you?

If I were an MRA I'd also be happy to reel someone in but I had a bad experience with them.

What do you mean?

As for the ideal that Feminism can be achieved without putting down men, I am inclined to agree. My issue is with modern Western Feminism - I doubt Pankhurst would have much good to say about it.

You mean the extremist end of modern western feminism. This is what's frustrating - the way the fundamentalism is presented as what it's all about.

Recondite49

P_1 wrote: »

That is a reasonable point I guess. Remember that generally you're much more inclined to remember negative encounters and have those meetings colour your own viewpoint than you would with positive ones.

Hi P_1,

That's certainly true. Negative experiences can stay with you a lot longer.

However, if a prominent Feminist had commented on the "Say no to Page 3" campaign to say, "Hey you know what? It's really none of our business if girls want to send topless photos of themselves into a newspaper," it certainly would stand out in my memory as I'd have eaten my hat.

Links234

Recondite49 wrote: »

To take the logic to its extreme, I have debated members of the British National Party before as mentioned above. The public perception of this party is that it's racist, favouring white British people over others. If someone who was a card carrying member told me he or she didn't feel any need to address the public statements made by the party on the issue of immigration and moreover that this wasn't important to be seen as a person of integrity because they were a moderate, I'd be very worried indeed as I'm sure would you.

Hi I'm Mr. Meeseeks, look at me!

The BNP have outlined policies, it's clear what they stand for. What you're doing with feminism however, is saying "look at this random nut from youtube!" and saying that that is mainstream feminist policy.

P_1

Recondite49 wrote: »

Hi P_1,

That's certainly true. Negative experiences can stay with you a lot longer.

However, if a prominent Feminist had commented on the "Say no to Page 3" campaign to say, "Hey you know what? It's really none of our business if girls want to send topless photos of themselves into a newspaper," it certainly would stand out in my memory as I'd have eaten my hat.

True but I guess I find it a bit of a small fry issue to get all hot and bothered over considering we live in an age where it is possible to access all sorts of photos of girls sending off photos of themselves.

Recondite49

Magaggie wrote: »

You... are not seriously doubting it's available are you?

What do you mean?

You mean the extremist end of modern western feminism. This is what's frustrating - the way the fundamentalism is presented as what it's all about.

Re: Internet chauvinism, it's not that I doubt it but I am happy to condemn it wholeheartedly if needs be.

As for condemning MRA's, I don't identify as one but if I were a member of such an organisation I'd be happy to speak up if someone said something that was clearly out of order e.g I've seen comments condoning violence against women. They're a very nasty bunch, I would even go so far as to say nastier than Feminists - but that's the reason I haven't signed on the dotted line!

We do seem to come up against this issue of whether it's fair to judge modern Western Feminists by the so-called fundamentalists. My question to you would be how are you distinguishing between these and the supposed moderates?

I am judging Feminists based on what they say publicly and their campaigns. Is this really that unfair?

Recondite49

P_1 wrote: »

True but I guess I find it a bit of a small fry issue to get all hot and bothered over considering we live in an age where it is possible to access all sorts of photos of girls sending off photos of themselves.

Certainly if you've access to the internet P_1 Censorship is something of a moot point. Far easier to try to restrict what appears in newspapers, perhaps that's why they chose it.

Incidentally it was the Sun's female Editor who became one of the biggest champions of the young women who appear in it. It's also a neat example of the double standards in place - Feminists know a direct appeal to the women in question not to send in their photos would be met with a very short response indeed! (I was inspired by their example).

Recondite49

Links234 wrote: »

Hi I'm Mr. Meeseeks, look at me!

The BNP have outlined policies, it's clear what they stand for. What you're doing with feminism however, is saying "look at this random nut from youtube!" and saying that that is mainstream feminist policy.

Not at all Links, to my count I've mentioned mainstream protests and newspapers where comments from these fascists appear. Where do you go to incidentally when you want to obtain a guide to mainstream Feminist policy? Is there a manifesto we should all be reading?

Links234

Recondite49 wrote: »

Is there a manifesto we should all be reading?

Good afternoon Recondite,

There is not, and that's kinda the point. It's very very easy to make straw feminists.

super_furry

Not going through all eight pages but we do know this whole endfathersday thing is a trolling hoax from 4chan, right?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Pumpkinseeds

So does this mean that I can tell my Dad to enjoy his father's day bottle of whiskey since it's the last father's day gift he'll be getting from me since father's day oppresses me as a woman:D

Links234

super_furry wrote: »

Not going through all eight pages but we do know this whole endfathersday thing is a trolling hoax from 4chan, right?

Yes

Recondite49

Links234 wrote: »

I've no problem recognising that there are quite serious issues facing men, including but not limited to parental rights, domestic violence, and mental health issues. I don't base my opinion of how serious or important these issues are on the rantings of the likes of Paul Elam, or any other nutcase MRA.

Hi Links,

I agree that the importance or lack thereof of an issue has nothing to do with the 'rantings' of MRA's or Feminists ; indeed as a Feminist that might be something to reflect on given how often the issue at hand is eclipsed by a Feminist making an extreme statement or Feminists overreacting to well meaning if poorly worded comments as mentioned before during the "Slutwalk" debacle.

It was precisely the ridiculous parading of women in streets that allowed people to trivialise the issue as a whole - I just did a quick google and found three different meme generators for that movement - presumably not the effect they intended to convey?

I even spoke to my friend Jono at the time who told me he'd asked his girlfriend not to go as he was afraid she'd be laughed at. I actually disagreed with him on that one as that's never a reason to avoid doing something.

The difference here though when it comes to MRA's is I'm not trying to argue that the Men's Rights Movement as a whole is a good and worthwhile thing, nor am I a member of one. If I were and I were failing to pick up on their hypocrisy, lies and threats then we'd have a problem.

Recondite49

Links234 wrote: »

Good afternoon Recondite,

There is not, and that's kinda the point. It's very very easy to make straw feminists.

Thanks for the confirmation Links, I actually knew that there wasn't but was hoping you'd admit it. In that case I take it you've no objection to me continuing to judge Feminists by their statements and actions as described by mainstream media, or lack thereof?

Recondite49

Links234 wrote: »

Yes

Yeah, I'm just killing time while I wait for a package. :-D

Shakespeare's Sister

Recondite49 wrote: »

We do seem to come up against this issue of whether it's fair to judge modern Western Feminists by the so-called fundamentalists. My question to you would be how are you distinguishing between these and the supposed moderates?

Any feminists I know LOVE men and most have boyfriends. They love sex and looking sexy. They just challenge instances of women being affected negatively because of their gender. That's all. You are going to hear about the extremists though before you hear about the ones like those who I know, as the extremists are the ones who'll stir up controversy and interest.
Things have come a long way in this regard in the West, but there are still problems, e.g. the Steubenville case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steubenville_High_School_rape_case
This is why feminism isn't obsolete.

I don't agree with the assertion that the internet and off-line are entirely separate - that's untrue; the lines do blur. But... the internet is a place where the most hateful extreme stuff gets posted, because of the protection of anonymity and geography, and it's not as likely to be encountered off-line. I just never read that fundamentalist feminist and men's rights stuff, because I can't take it. It's unbearable! I don't want to be involved in any way, so let them stew in their hate.

I would see nothing wrong with you getting involved in MRA even if there are crackpots - because they only represent the crackpots, not the entire movement.

Wibbs

Magaggie wrote: »

I would see nothing wrong with you getting involved in MRA even if there are crackpots - because they only represent the crackpots, not the entire movement.

+1, though sadly M, the crackpots seem to get the a lot of column inches. Well I suppose measured thought on a subject is boring for many? The problem is when these utter nutbags are seen as legitimate voices for whichever ism you mention. Even when it kicks off as a troll or a "joke" like this example. What gets scary are the responses that agree and think it real. Meh when I read such nonsense my go to reaction is these muppets must have an easy life, or they're mentallers that skipped the transition from adolescence into adulthood.

Links234

Recondite49 wrote: »

Hi Links,

I agree that the importance or lack thereof of an issue has nothing to do with the 'rantings' of MRA's or Feminists ; indeed as a Feminist that might be something to reflect on given how often the issue at hand is eclipsed by a Feminist making an extreme statement or Feminists overreacting to well meaning if poorly worded comments as mentioned before during the "Slutwalk" debacle.

Well hello there Recondite,

When you reference the slutwalk thing and say feminists overreacting to well meaning comments, what are you talking about here? Because the slutwalk is a response to a very serious issue, eg that women are often told they deserved rape because of how they may have dressed, it shifts the blame onto the victims instead of the rapist.

What's your "well meaning comment" in this sense?

Recondite49

Magaggie wrote: »

Any feminists I know LOVE men and most have boyfriends. They love sex and looking sexy. They just challenge instances of women being affected negatively because of their gender. That's all. You are going to hear about the extremists though before you hear about the ones like those who I know, as the extremists are the ones who'll stir up controversy and interest.
Things have come a long way in this regard in the West, but there are still problems, e.g. the Steubenville case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steubenville_High_School_rape_case
This is why feminism isn't obsolete.

I don't agree with the assertion that the internet and off-line are entirely separate - that's untrue; the lines do blur. But... the internet is a place where the most hateful extreme stuff gets posted, because of the protection of anonymity and geography, and it's not as likely to be encountered off-line. I just never read that fundamentalist feminist and men's rights stuff, because I can't take it. It's unbearable! I don't want to be involved in any way, so let them stew in their hate.

I would see nothing wrong with you getting involved in MRA even if there are crackpots - because they only represent the crackpots, not the entire movement.

I'm not so sure Magaggie,

Certainly I think you're right that the internet affords anonymity to people to make extreme comments but someone who identified as an MRA would have to go to great lengths indeed to convince me he was a liberal minded person only interested in equality.

My experience of these organisations is in fairness limited to the internet. I joined a Google group, several Facebook groups and even a conference line on Skype discussing the issue of men's rights.

Firstly all of the groups contained unmoderated posts saying it's acceptable to hit women. I can't think of any situation where this would be necessary but was told that it was more important that these people had their say than any woman interested in the movement seeing the comments and deciding against joining.

The Google Group changed its name from the euphemistic "Yellow Star" to "A woman's true place" while I was a member. A dozen or so members offered a man advice about how to 'bimbofy' his girlfriend by forbidding her to read, use large words and so on. I resigned in disgust.

The Skype line actually booted me off as they saw on Facebook that I had a girlfriend. I asked if only single men "going their own way" were allowed to join but received no response.

Some of the comments I saw were so sickening I won't repeat them and I agree they were more aggressive than those I see from Feminists, though no less repulsive.

So in light of this, perhaps it's easy to see why if someone identified as an MRA, I might ask them to clarify one or two things and distance themselves from the public statements made by some of their members.

Is it then unfair to hold Feminists to the same standard I do men? Surely equality is what we're all about?

Pullerhair

Links234 wrote: »

Hi I'm Mr. Meeseeks, look at me!

The BNP have outlined policies, it's clear what they stand for. What you're doing with feminism however, is saying "look at this random nut from youtube!" and saying that that is mainstream feminist policy.

Mainstream feminist policy is not necessarily that of random nuts such as her but it is basically a policy reflecting the goals of a trade union for women who aren't interested in equality.

Recondite49

Links234 wrote: »

Well hello there Recondite,

When you reference the slutwalk thing and say feminists overreacting to well meaning comments, what are you talking about here? Because the slutwalk is a response to a very serious issue, eg that women are often told they deserved rape because of how they may have dressed, it shifts the blame onto the victims instead of the rapist.

What's your "well meaning comment" in this sense?

And hello to you Links

The well meaning comment was motivated by a desire for women to dress in a more conservative fashion for their own safety.

If we remove gender from the issue and consider the crime of burglary, this actually becomes a matter of common sense. The local Police often offer information about obtaining Window locks and dead bolts for doors to reduce the chance of a break in.

The "outrage" here seems to be that dressing immodestly might encourage rape and the blame for the crime is shifted from the victim to the assailant. However ignoring the realities of the situation e.g leaving your door unlocked makes you more prone to burglarly is not the same thing as shifting the entire responsibility for the crime onto the victim.

Why is it then we have one standards for your property when it's made of bricks (your house) but another when it's made of flesh and blood (your body)?

I don't believe the comments in question were seeking to blame the victims of rape and of course women who dress conservatively are also victims but the reaction was just ridiculous.

Imagine if people waved placards screaming "BURGLARS CAN STOP BURGLARY!" - Most people would say it's a self evident proposition but agree that protesting in the streets won't do much good - can you see how the same might apply for sexual assault?

Pullerhair

Links234 wrote: »

Well hello there Recondite,

When you reference the slutwalk thing and say feminists overreacting to well meaning comments, what are you talking about here? Because the slutwalk is a response to a very serious issue, eg that women are often told they deserved rape because of how they may have dressed, it shifts the blame onto the victims instead of the rapist.

What's your "well meaning comment" in this sense?

How many people actually think a woman deserves to be raped for what she wears? It seens that they are reacting to a few nutjobs abd ascribing their the beliefs of the nutjob to society as a whole.

Links234

Recondite49 wrote: »

Thanks for the confirmation Links, I actually knew that there wasn't but was hoping you'd admit it. In that case I take it you've no objection to me continuing to judge Feminists by their statements and actions as described by mainstream media, or lack thereof?

If you want to continue to use fringe nonsense and opinion columns about Game of Thrones to paint with wide brush strokes just because there's no official doctrine or feminist pope, you can.

*PS. I nominate myself for Pope of Feminism, I think I'd be pretty good at it

Recondite49

Pullerhair wrote: »

How many people actually think a woman deserves to be raped for what she wears? It seens that they are reacting to a few nutjobs abd ascribing their the beliefs of the nutjob to society as a whole.

I think the comments were poorly worded although no doubt well intended. It's also not true to say that a woman who walks to her car with a group of friends instead of alone won't be raped any more than a house with a bolted door and shatterproof windows can't be burgled.

The issue here seems to be the Feminist construct that in so saying, it's implied that the woman somehow deserved to be raped. I like to use the breaking and entering analogy as it's easy to see that by telling someone to get insurance and secure their house, it would be nonsensical for them to feel that you're somehow holding them responsible for any future home invasion.

Recondite49

Links234 wrote: »

If you want to continue to use fringe nonsense and opinion columns about Game of Thrones to paint with wide brush strokes just because there's no official doctrine or feminist pope, you can.

*PS. I nominate myself for Pope of Feminism, I think I'd be pretty good at it

Hi Links,

So are comments in a national newspaper not sufficient to judge Feminism? I ask you again by what standard should we then judge Feminists? If you look in the comments you've some very hacked off girls to deal with if you're looking to recruit people your Holiness.

Muise...

Links234 wrote: »

If you want to continue to use fringe nonsense and opinion columns about Game of Thrones to paint with wide brush strokes just because there's no official doctrine or feminist pope, you can.

*PS. I nominate myself for Pope of Feminism, I think I'd be pretty good at it

Pope Joan II, good girl yourself!

Recondite49

Muise... wrote: »

Pope Joan II, good girl yourself!

...and we all remember what happened to her.

p.s That was a joke for any Feminists reading, I'm not actually planning on forming a lynch mob. I have to stay home until the package arrives. :-D

Muise...

Recondite49 wrote: »

Hi Links,

So are comments in a national newspaper not sufficient to judge Feminism? I ask you again by what standard should we then judge Feminists? If you look in the comments you've some very hacked off girls to deal with if you're looking to recruit people your Holiness.

Is Eamon Dunphy's opinion not sufficient to judge football? You never answered my last question - should I wade into a discussion on the Football Forum because I read a few facebook statuses about the World Cup?

You do realise that national broadsheet newspapers are shallow sources, comments on their articles even more flimsy, and that you'd be laughed out of a primary school debate with that kind of reference?

HigginsJ

My 1st Father's Day this year. We are going away for the night (with tiny Mr. Higgins) Didn't want or won't need anything special but it's nice to be appreciated. Dads tend to be pretty much ignored by all companies (looking at you SMA ads)

Pullerhair

Muise... wrote: »

Is Eamon Dunphy's opinion not sufficient to judge football? You never answered my last question - should I wade into a discussion on the Football Forum because I read a few facebook statuses about the World Cup?

You do realise that national broadsheet newspapers are shallow sources, comments on their articles even more flimsy, and that you'd be laughed out of a primary school debate with that kind of reference?

So what is feminism?

Recondite49

Muise... wrote: »

Is Eamon Dunphy's opinion not sufficient to judge football? You never answered my last question - should I wade into a discussion on the Football Forum because I read a few facebook statuses about the World Cup?

You do realise that national broadsheet newspapers are shallow sources, comments on their articles even more flimsy, and that you'd be laughed out of a primary school debate with that kind of reference?

As for comments on the articles, they're very amusing but only in the sense that if Feminists were looking to sway women to their cause, they seem to have struck out this time.

The Football analogy is an excellent one - for it to be equivalent to my own experience though I'd not only have read articles in newspaper but followed every major football campaign on social media, spent eight years debating the merits of Football with players, read famous authors of the Football movement and maintain correspondence with self identified footballers over e-mail.

So after doing that, yes I would feel ready to head on over to the football section. As it is, it's just twenty two men and a bit of leather for me, hence my being here instead.

Links234

Recondite49 wrote: »

And hello to you Links

The well meaning comment was motivated by a desire for women to dress in a more conservative fashion.

If we remove gender from the issue and consider the crime of burglary, this actually becomes a matter of common sense. The local Police often offer information about obtaining Window locks and dead bolts for doors to reduce the chance of a break in.

I'm gonna stop you right there and say you're talking about apples and oranges, the two crimes are not comparible. If you wanted to compare it to physical assault for example, you might have some sort of argument, and could make a valid comparison with sexual assault. With that in mind, you don't really hear people coming out of the woodwork saying that the victim had a really punchable face, or a local priest making statements about what a great guy the assaulter is, or a politician claiming that if it was a legitimate assault that the body has a way of shutting down the incoming blows, or people saying that the victim was asking for a beating all along and had asked for it just to change their minds later.

In your analogy, I don't see many people standing up to say that well, the victim invited the burgler in and asked them to take away all their valuables, but now they've changed their mind after the fact and just want to ruin the burger's life. Yet when someone's a victim of rape, all this kind of crap gets trotted out.

Muise...

Pullerhair wrote: »

So what is feminism?

A movement to improve the lot of women; to combat sexual violence and sexual discrimination, to ensure girls' and women's access to education, reproductive and marital choices, voting rights, gainful employment for which one is qualified.

I don't bother with that language-changing or rent-a-cause outrage stuff. I don't know why I bother defending the main against those who insist this fringe is the norm. They'll just come back at me with a fcuking newspaper review of a TV show or some trolling tweet or other.

Recondite49

Links234 wrote: »

I'm gonna stop you right there and say you're talking about apples and oranges, the two crimes are not comparible. If you wanted to compare it to physical assault for example, you might have some sort of argument, and could make a valid comparison with sexual assault. With that in mind, you don't really hear people coming out of the woodwork saying that the victim had a really punchable face, or a local priest making statements about what a great guy the assaulter is, or a politician claiming that if it was a legitimate assault that the body has a way of shutting down the incoming blows, or people saying that the victim was asking for a beating all along and had asked for it just to change their minds later.

In your analogy, I don't see many people standing up to say that well, the victim invited the burgler in and asked them to take away all their valuables, but now they've changed their mind after the fact and just want to ruin the burger's life. Yet when someone's a victim of rape, all this kind of crap gets trotted out.

Your points are excellent Link inasmuch as they say that it's unfair to support criminals and blame victims. Nevertheless, the comments in question were directed at the prevention of the crime and yes, if someone did leave their door ajar there may well be difficult questions raised, particularly if they're claiming on valuables for the insurance.

I don't want to seem dismissive though. It is rather shocking how easily accusations of sexual assault are believed over other crimes e.g if a man gets into an elevator alone with a woman and she accuses him of trying to snatch her purse, you'd have people coming forward and saying this is nonsensical, the man already has plenty of money and even if he wanted to steal there are far easier ways to accomplish it. Certainly the accusation alone wouldn't be enough to get him taken to court.

Compare and contrast with a woman who claims a man sexually assaulted her. I don't want to detract from the original point of the thread too much but suffice it to say this is treated in a very different light indeed!

Muise...

Recondite49 wrote: »

Your points are excellent Link inasmuch as they say that it's unfair to support criminals and blame victims. Nevertheless, the comments in question were directed at the prevention of the crime and yes, if someone did leave their door ajar there may well be difficult questions raised, particularly if they're claiming on valuables for the insurance.

I don't want to seem dismissive though. It is rather shocking how easily accusations of sexual assault are believed over other crimes e.g if a man gets into an elevator alone with a woman and she accuses him of trying to snatch her purse, you'd have people coming forward and saying this is nonsensical, the man already has plenty of money and even if he wanted to steal there are far easier ways to accomplish it. Certainly the accusation alone wouldn't be enough to get him taken to court.

Compare and contrast with a woman who claims a man sexually assaulted her. I don't want to detract from the original point of the thread too much but suffice it to say this is treated in a very different light indeed!

Treated in a different light by whom and how and where are you getting this assumption from? Seriously, evidence or GTFO.

Recondite49

Muise... wrote: »

A movement to improve the lot of women; to combat sexual violence and sexual discrimination, to ensure girls' and women's access to education, reproductive and marital choices, voting rights, gainful employment for which one is qualified.

I don't bother with that language-changing or rent-a-cause outrage stuff. I don't know why I bother defending the main against those who insist this fringe is the norm. They'll just come back at me with a fcuking newspaper review of a TV show or some trolling tweet or other.

Over to you then muise, where are these maidens of mercy who want nothing more than to end violence and discrimination against women - a website, a byline in a column, something please? I really am prepared to be amazed.

Pullerhair

Links234 wrote: »

I'm gonna stop you right there and say you're talking about apples and oranges, the two crimes are not comparible. If you wanted to compare it to physical assault for example, you might have some sort of argument, and could make a valid comparison with sexual assault. With that in mind, you don't really hear people coming out of the woodwork saying that the victim had a really punchable face, or a local priest making statements about what a great guy the assaulter is, or a politician claiming that if it was a legitimate assault that the body has a way of shutting down the incoming blows, or people saying that the victim was asking for a beating all along and had asked for it just to change their minds later.

In your analogy, I don't see many people standing up to say that well, the victim invited the burgler in and asked them to take away all their valuables, but now they've changed their mind after the fact and just want to ruin the burger's life. Yet when someone's a victim of rape, all this kind of crap gets trotted out.

It's as simple as this. People should should take precautions to reduce the risk of unfortunate events taking place or at least be aware of the increased risks and consider if the benefit is worth the risk.

If you you don't take a particular precaution is doesn't mean you deserve the possible consequences, it could mean you are unwise though.

I personally like seeing women wearing revealing clothing so you wouldn't hear me arguing against it.

Another debate altogether is what precautions actually reduce risk materially and what ones don't.

Recondite49

Muise... wrote: »

Treated in a different light by whom and how and where are you getting this assumption from? Seriously, evidence or GTFO.

This actually happened to my own brother but no matter. Would you like me to give you a list of men falsely accused of sexual assault? I'm a member of FACT (Falsely Accused Carers and Teachers) who have worked to exonerate over 12,500 people in the past twenty odd years who were falsely accused of sexual assault, so please spare me.

eviltwin

Recondite49 wrote: »

This actually happened to my own brother but no matter. Would you like me to give you a list of men falsely accused of sexual assault? I'm a member of FACT (Falsely Accused Carers and Teachers) who have worked to exonerate over 12,500 people in the past twenty odd years who were falsely accused of sexual assault, so please spare me.

Links to this please?

ETA: how does your group determine if someone has been falsely accused or not?

Recondite49

Pullerhair wrote: »

It's as simple as this. People should should take precautions to reduce the risk of unfortunate events taking place.

If you you don't take a particular precaution is doesn't mean you deserve the possible consequences, it could mean you are unwise though.

I personally like seeing women wearing revealing clothing so you wouldn't hear me arguing against it.

Another debate altogether is what precautions actually reduce risk materially and what ones don't.

You're right pullerhair and when it comes to rape at least, I think protests like these detract from the main issue which is that women are most commonly assaulted by an intimate partner in the privacy of their own home.

Feminists seem particularly preoccupied with the least common form of rape for some reason. I think probably raising awareness is a good thing about the issue as of course we don't know how many women are abused by their partner and not coming forward about it.

Muise...

Recondite49 wrote: »

Over to you then muise, where are these maidens of mercy who want nothing more than to end violence and discrimination against women - a website, a byline in a column, something please? I really am prepared to be amazed.

off the top of my head - here:

http://www.nwci.ie/

abroad (the balls on those ladies!)

http://www.rawa.org/index.php

Recondite49

eviltwin wrote: »

Links to this please?

http://www.factuk.org/

Read and weep. I did.

Recondite49

Muise... wrote: »

off the top of my head - here:

http://www.nwci.ie/

abroad (the balls on those ladies!)

http://www.rawa.org/index.php

Thanks, Just to be clear, you believe these organisations are a fair representation of the Feminist movement as a whole?

eviltwin

Recondite49 wrote: »

http://www.factuk.org/

Read and weep. I did.

How do you determine if a claim is false?

Muise...

Recondite49 wrote: »

Thanks, Just to be clear, you believe these organisations are a fair representation of the Feminist movement as a whole?

Yes.

But if you believe a newspaper column about GOT is more substantial than real-world issues facing women, or that your brother's experience means that rape victims are believed without question, there's no point in discussing any of this with you.

Recondite49

eviltwin wrote: »

How do you determine if a claim is false?

An excellent question. The figure I mentioned doesn't represent people who were accused and then insufficient evidence was found. As you say that could happen to anyone. It represents the number of people who were exonerated due to the accuser admitting they lied or other evidence was discovered to show they couldn't have committed the crime.

The organisation describes itself as a haven for the innocent, not a refuge for the guilty in denial. Some of their articles really do challenge the idea that we're safe from baseless accusations, please do have a quick look.

Recondite49

Muise... wrote: »

Yes.

But if you believe a newspaper column about GOT is more substantial than real-world issues facing women, or that your brother's experience means that rape victims are believed without question, there's no point in discussing any of this with you.

I just want to play this your way Muise - are you happy for Feminists to be judged by the statements and publications released by these two organisations? I'm more than happy to have a read but I have an idea what I might find...

conorhal

Deleted User wrote: »

A friend of a friend is the worst find of feminist and was discussing this in the pub a few weeks back, she felt that a day celebrating rape was disgusting. As you'd expect she was called on the tape remark and asked what the hell she meant. She replied that "any sex act involving a man is rape because the man has a or use"

I find it hard to believe such people exist, but aparently they do.
You should have called her a mysoginist, which is what she is, since she clearly doesn't credit women with enough intellegence to give informed consent or own their sexuality. The irony of a feminist that clearly hates women must be lost on her.

Muise...

Recondite49 wrote: »

I just want to play this your way Muise - are you happy for Feminists to be judged by the statements and publications released by these two organisations? I'm more than happy to have a read but I have an idea what I might find...

How nice that you'll open the links with prejudice.