England v Italy 11 PM. (Mod warning linked in OP)

Skylinehead

shamrock55 wrote: »

Yep

Two options, pick one.

Says "yes"

Lennonist

DerekDGoldfish wrote: »

He is still bitter at being shipped out of Juve to make room for some French waster.

He went to Sampdoria after that and then Inter and then Ascoli. He spent the best years of his career in Italy.

DerekDGoldfish

Lennonist wrote: »

He went to Sampdoria after that and then Inter and then Ascoli. He spent the best years of his career in Italy.

This is not the first night he has been slightly anti-italian, it could be that something happened to him over there and he is still bitter or it could be that he is just anti everyone thats not Aresnal

shamrock55

the incredible pudding wrote: »

To be fair he played ahead of Veratti and De Rossi for most the game. He didn't just sit in front of the defenders, basically has a free role in midfield and wandered into pockets of space wherever they appear, he was everywhere and displayed a masterclass of a midfield performance.

That being said, arguing that he was supporting the forwards is ridiculous.

My point was that pirlo is more of an attacking midfielder then a defensive one, you couldnt compare him to gerrard because their roles were so different, the only time you might see pirlo in front of the back 4 would be if they wete defending a lead or soak7ng up pressure, its not his natural position

Liam O

Rooney tracks back, he gets lambasted for not being forward enough, stays forward gets lambasted. If it was his role to track back he would have.

daithijjj

tupac_healy wrote: »

I was hoping you would come back on and say you were kidding....

Honestly, Pirlo is the very definition of what Gerrard should have been attempting to emulate tonight...

Playmaker personified

Gerrard has defensive responsibilities in Hodgsons set up. Pirlo has basically got a free role, with almost zero defensive responsibilities, to find pockets of space ahead of another DM/CM. He plays more advanced in the respective set ups. Certainly more advanced than Gerrard.

shamrock55

Liam O wrote: »

Rooney tracks back, he gets lambasted for not being forward enough, stays forward gets lambasted. If it was his role to track back he would have.

If rooney tracked back he would probably fall over himself

tupac_healy

shamrock55 wrote: »

My point was that pirlo is more of an attacking midfielder then a defensive one, you couldnt compare him to gerrard because their roles were so different, the only time you might see pirlo in front of the back 4 would be if they wete defending a lead or soak7ng up pressure, its not his natural position

Or you might spot him in front of his back 4 to get the ball from deep and set up the play from well inside his own half....

Which is...


His entire game basically.....


I'm not being smart here but you must see that England want Gerrard to play the 'Pirlo' role yes?

the incredible pudding

shamrock55 wrote: »

My point was that pirlo is more of an attacking midfielder then a defensive one, you couldnt compare him to gerrard because their roles were so different, the only time you might see pirlo in front of the back 4 would be if they wete defending a lead or soak7ng up pressure, its not his natural position

I'm afraid that's just not true, the position he's famous for is exactly the role that gerrard is being molded into but Pirlo is far, far better at it and probably the best ever to play it. He's a deep lying playmaker. The fact that Pirlo started as an attacking midfielder before changed into a deep lying playmaker (experiement by Ancelotti edit: actually Mazzone was the first to play him there at Brescia) is pretty widely reported. Pirlo often sits in front of the defense and spreads play.

kryogen

daithijjj wrote: »

Gerrard has defensive responsibilities in Hodgsons set up. Pirlo has basically got a free role, with almost zero defensive responsibilities, to find pockets of space ahead of another DM/CM. He plays more advanced in the respective set ups. Certainly more advanced than Gerrard.

You may be getting confused between Liverpools set up and Englands?

the incredible pudding

Liam O wrote: »

Rooney tracks back, he gets lambasted for not being forward enough, stays forward gets lambasted. If it was his role to track back he would have.

The problem is that he doesn't quite do either. He didn't do a Ronaldo and just stay forward to help build counter attacks (when he did he actually had a positive impact and set up a goal, but he rarely was that advanced) nor did he track his man effectively at all. He looked lost on the left and very unsure of his role. The blame is as much Hodgson's as it is Rooney's, Rooney doesn't have the discipline for either role and Hodgson should be aware of that.

kryogen

shamrock55 wrote: »

If rooney tracked back he would probably fall over himself

2 serious questions

1. Do you actually watch football?
2. How drunk are you?

Smithwicks Man

shamrock55 wrote: »

My point was that pirlo is more of an attacking midfielder then a defensive one, you couldnt compare him to gerrard because their roles were so different, the only time you might see pirlo in front of the back 4 would be if they wete defending a lead or soak7ng up pressure, its not his natural position

In disagreement here, the formation that BBC showed of Italy playing a 4-1-4-1 with De Rossi as the anchor and Pirlo in the centre of the 4 behind Balotelli was wrong.

They played with Ancelotti's Christmas Tree formation of 4-3-2-1 with The 3 being Pirlo, De Rossi and Verratti and Candreva and Marchisio then played in the 2 further forward supporting Balotelli.

People seem to think that teams have strict formations that the players stick to but most teams play with as much fluidity going forward as possible and Italy did that tonight.

Candreva attacked down the right wing several times but in the formation they line out with, he was playing as the right attacking midfield of two central attacking midfielders.



There's no reason why you couldn't compare Pirlo's performance to Gerrard's except that there's no point because Pirlo was infinitely better than him.

F1ngers

kryogen wrote: »

2 serious questions

1. Do you actually watch football?
2. How drunk are you?

Yes. :P

tupac_healy

the incredible pudding wrote: »

I'm afraid that's just not true, the position he's famous for is exactly the role that gerrard is being molded into but Pirlo is far, far better at it and probably the best ever to play it. He's a deep lying playmaker. The fact that Pirlo started as an attacking midfielder before changed into a deep lying playmaker (experiement by Ancelotti) is pretty widely reported. Pirlo often sits in front of the defense and spreads play.

I gotta say lads, anyone that doesn't know or agree with this (Pirlo-Gerrard) needs to get outside the premiership for a bit.....

Never thought I'd see the day were Pirlo's positional effectiveness on a football pitch was even an issue!

Lennonist

DerekDGoldfish wrote: »

This is not the first night he has been slightly anti-italian, it could be that something happened to him over there and he is still bitter or it could be that he is just anti everyone thats not Aresnal

I think the latter part of your comment is closer to the mark, and it's just down to who pays the most of his most recent wage..

Nobody forced him to leave Arsenal back in the day btw. Does he have regrets?

He's an Irish player who made it in Italy when the Serie A was a top league in Europe.

He seems to be bitter, and I have little time for his bitterness.

mixery

shamrock55 wrote: »

My point was that pirlo is more of an attacking midfielder then a defensive one, you couldnt compare him to gerrard because their roles were so different, the only time you might see pirlo in front of the back 4 would be if they wete defending a lead or soak7ng up pressure, its not his natural position

ermm Pirlo is the definitione of a Regista. he controls the tempo of the game by dropping back, taking the ball, and looking for gaps, runs. if there are non, he waits. in the italian league he often dribbles and gets fouled. outside of italy the refs don't really give thos calls so it's one aspect of his game eliminated. also in italy he's nearly always tightly marked, so bonucci takes some of the playmaking duties(why the hell didn;t he play instead of that palletta yoke?). pushing up significantly with the ball at his feet is rare, he prefers to stretch the midfield.

it might be hard to grasp that proper defensive midfielders who are there to break up plays play in front of him, but it's just the way the game develops around the master, genius, eccetera. that is pirlo!

Dempsey

Did you miss the praise he gave the italians?

UnitedIrishman

shamrock55 wrote: »

If rooney tracked back he would probably fall over himself

He was playing right back wasn't he?

MisterAnarchy

When was the last time Rooney actually had a good game for England in a major tournament ?

I'm sick of pundits making excuses for him ,its time for them to admit that Rooney just isnt good enough .
He has to be the most overrated player of all time ,the white Pele he is not.

daithijjj

kryogen wrote: »

You may be getting confused between Liverpools set up and Englands?

Maybe you are?

Jelle1880

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

When was the last time Rooney actually had a good game for England in a major tournament ?

I'm sick of pundits making excuses for him ,its time for them to admit that Rooney just isnt good enough .
He has to be the most overrated player of all time ,the white Pele he is not.

I read an article a while ago where it was said that players like him normally hit their peak around now. He has hit his peak a few years back and will only get worse from here on.

NIMAN

Rooney earns that £250,000 each week easily.

shamrock55

I think lallana could be in with a good shout to start on thursday

The Gibzilla

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I read an article a while ago where it was said that players like him normally hit their peak around now. He has hit his peak a few years back and will only get worse from here on.

Was the article by Paul Scholes on the Paddy Power website by any chance? :P

kryogen

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

When was the last time Rooney actually had a good game for England in a major tournament ?

I'm sick of pundits making excuses for him ,its time for them to admit that Rooney just isnt good enough .
He has to be the most overrated player of all time ,the white Pele he is not.

Euro 2012

Dempsey

kryogen wrote: »

Euro 2012

Which match?

kryogen

Dempsey wrote: »

Which match?

He only played in 2 sure!

He was good against Ukraine all things considered and got the vital goal.

Dempsey

kryogen wrote: »

He only played in 2 sure!

He was good against Ukraine all things considered and got the vital goal.

Despite the goal he wasnt up to much in that game tbh

NIMAN

Rooney was often held up as somewhere in the Top 5 players in the world, behind the likes of Messi and Ronaldo, but he's not even close to the Top 50 players in the world.

Very over-rated player. Of course has produced moments of class, but a lot of top players do that.

Dempsey

Name 50 better than him

yohan the great

kryogen wrote: »

He only played in 2 sure!

He was good against Ukraine all things considered and got the vital goal.

He was terrible in that game, stop making up things

The Gibzilla

Rooney tends to be an easy target when results go wrong for England. He didn't play at his best, but he didn't play in his best position. His cross for the goal was good, but I thought Sterling's ball to pick him out was better. I will say Rooney's cross-field, "glory passes" tend to get a bit predictable and ineffective in games.

MisterAnarchy

kryogen wrote: »

He only played in 2 sure!

He was good against Ukraine all things considered and got the vital goal.

He was very rusty in that match ,he missed a sitter of a header in the first half and the goal was a tap in as a result of a clanger by the goalie.
"Easiest goal he will ever score" were the commentators words if I recall correctly.

yohan the great

The Gibzilla wrote: »

Rooney tends to be an easy target when results go wrong for England. He didn't play at his best, but he didn't play in his best position. His cross for the goal was good, but I thought Sterling's ball to pick him out was better. I will say Rooney's cross-field, "glory passes" tend to get a bit predictable and ineffective in games.

I actually agree. Rooney was considerably better than Gerrard tonight

Smithwicks Man

NIMAN wrote: »

Rooney was often held up as somewhere in the Top 5 players in the world, behind the likes of Messi and Ronaldo, but he's not even close to the Top 50 players in the world.

Very over-rated player. Of course has produced moments of class, but a lot of top players do that.

While I don't think Rooney has declined as much as some here do, he was overhyped because he was English.

Always had the same argument with two of my mates where I have said for the last 7/8 years that Ibrahimovic is a better player but they still argue to this day to the contrary.


That being said, he showed outrageous adaptability to be able to drop back from an out and out striker to try and play a more creative role for both club and country.

Have to say that Rooney is definitely one of the best 50 players in the world and has been for years though. Might be off form recently and struggles in internationals but he's still very good.

I am pie

Rooney shifted out wide to accomodate sterling, arguably englands best performer.

why doesnt he carry the ball forward? Shooting was tired and hopeful rather than clinical. looks like a player who lost his way.

when rvp came in and became utd's main man it seems to have knocked his confidence. He was brilliant as a kid because he was fearless

The Gibzilla

yohan the great wrote: »

I actually agree. Rooney was considerably better than Gerrard tonight

Exactly. There was actually nothing worth noting of Gerrard's game tonight, aside from the penalty claim perhaps. Other than that he was anonymous. Extremely contrasting performances between both side's captains.

Pro. F

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

When was the last time Rooney actually had a good game for England in a major tournament ?

I'm sick of pundits making excuses for him ,its time for them to admit that Rooney just isnt good enough .
He has to be the most overrated player of all time ,the white Pele he is not.

Probably whenever Scholes last played and England had a somewhat functioning midfield.

No English wingers or strikers play properly well when they are with the national team because they invariably play with CMs who are incapable of dictating the play.

It's gas that people can't see this and end up coming to the conclusion that a striker who is on course to be United's and England's all time leading scorer and already has multiple PL winners medals plus a CL isn't good enough.

kryogen

NIMAN wrote: »

Rooney was often held up as somewhere in the Top 5 players in the world, behind the likes of Messi and Ronaldo, but he's not even close to the Top 50 players in the world.

Very over-rated player. Of course has produced moments of class, but a lot of top players do that.

Superb hyperbole there

Rooney is a fantastic player, I don't even like him and I have to admit that.

His consistent production year in year out, regardless of playing position or team form is up there with the best in the world.

Not even close to the top 50 is a good one alright.

kryogen

yohan the great wrote: »

He was terrible in that game, stop making up things

You obviously have a very wide criteria for terrible. I would assume most players are terrible week in week out in your estimation.

kryogen

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

He was very rusty in that match ,he missed a sitter of a header in the first half and the goal was a tap in as a result of a clanger by the goalie.
"Easiest goal he will ever score" were the commentators words if I recall correctly.

I did say all things considered. From memory I thought it was a pretty good performance, if you wanna talk about a great performance I am sure you would have to go back as far as Euro 2004

He has normally been injured coming into World Cups, but his euro records are much better

MisterAnarchy

Pro. F wrote: »

Probably whenever Scholes last played and England had a somewhat functioning midfield.

No English wingers or strikers play properly well when they are with the national team because they invariably play with CMs who are incapable of dictating the play.

It's gas that people can't see this and end up coming to the conclusion that a striker who is on course to be United's and England's all time leading scorer and already has multiple PL winners medals plus a CL isn't good enough.

By good enough I meant that Rooney isnt the world class player that the media make him out to be.
This belief that he is up there in the same bracket with Messi and Ronaldo is laughable,he isnt fit to lace their boots.

Ferguson saying that Rooney is as good as Pele,Charlton and Best is heresy.

Ok the English midfield is poor but it is still better than alot of teams that qualify for major tournaments yet their forwards can muster a half decent return.
That's the sign of a good forward,one who can feed on scraps or create something out of nothing ,that's what seperates the top players from the rest.

Robbie Keane has a fairly impressive scoring record for Ireland ,its more impressive than Rooney's,are you trying to tell me that Keane had better midfielders at his disposal than Rooney ??

COYVB

kryogen wrote: »

Superb hyperbole there

Rooney is a fantastic player, I don't even like him and I have to admit that.

His consistent production year in year out, regardless of playing position or team form is up there with the best in the world.

Not even close to the top 50 is a good one alright.

In theory, he's been dreadfully used by a succession of managers, but you have to wonder why. What are they seeing in training that makes them use him differently than the role he appears to be best in?

Dempsey

COYVB wrote: »

In theory, he's been dreadfully used by a succession of managers, but you have to wonder why. What are they seeing in training that makes them use him differently than the role he appears to be best in?

Versatility

MisterAnarchy

Dempsey wrote: »

Versatility

More being a jack of all trades but a master of none

Smithwicks Man

COYVB wrote: »

In theory, he's been dreadfully used by a succession of managers, but you have to wonder why. What are they seeing in training that makes them use him differently than the role he appears to be best in?

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

More being a jack of all trades but a master of none

You could argue that Rooney's ability to adapt to different roles has actually hampered him. If Rooney was a less versatile player and could only play in his favoured position up front then he would always be played up front. In turn, he would probably be playing much better.

The Gibzilla

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

You could argue that Rooney's ability to adapt to different roles has actually hampered him. If Rooney was a less versatile player and could only play in his favoured position up front then he would always be played up front. In turn, he would probably be playing much better.

Absolutely. When he was used as the main front man at United (post Ronaldo, pre RvP) his return was great - 34 goals in both the 09-10 & 11-12 season - It's a shame he's been thrown around the field by club and international managers.
No doubt that if he'd of moved to Chelsea during last summer he'd of been deployed as the focal point of their attack and perhaps his starting position in the World Cup may have been different.

kryogen

COYVB wrote: »

In theory, he's been dreadfully used by a succession of managers, but you have to wonder why. What are they seeing in training that makes them use him differently than the role he appears to be best in?

Adaptability, the ability to influence a game even when played out of position, to produce even when playing poorly or not involved?

His flexibility and natural will to fight for the team go against him a little in that regard I suppose

Delighted England lost.

They have some super players but are managed by a complete joke of a manager.

I'm sure the media surge for a foreign manager will start soon.

Absolute jokers