Logging a Dead Horse

Itziger

I've hit a bit of a downer in the training programme. Was going well enough but hip got really sore after 11 miles on Tuesday. Today is second day on the easy couch, no running. In any case I was considering not doing this week's Q2 and instead upping the number of MP miles for Sunday from 12 to 14.

I'm still hopeful of that. Bit worried about the hip though as it's the only area that has really kept me off the road for more than a few days in my 7 years running. Same one too!!

I'll take another couple of Neurofen tonight and rub it again and hopefully will be able to do a bit on Friday and Saturday. Week's total mileage will be well down, but before this week I'd got in a nice solid stretch where I'd fulfilled all the prescribed sessions. Maybe I was due a mini break.

Itziger

6 miles easy yesterday, hip seems fine though I definitely felt I was dragging the right leg through on the run. No reaction afterwards however which is great. Will do another easy 6 now and hopefully on for decent MP session tomorrow.

Itziger

So, 14 @ PMP done. Happy I think!

While they didn't feel easy I did get into a decent rhythm and the pace was even enough.

Slowest 6.49, fastest 6.40 and all others near the old 6.45 target. Felt fairly cooked afterwards mind. The 1.5 mile cool down was very much in the Granny shuffle department.

1 gooey gel and some water during. Forgot to take a slat tablet. Took one at the end.

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/590026211

Finnt

Your going well, your well on target for sub 3.

Itziger

Finnt wrote: »

Your going well, your well on target for sub 3.

Finnt, I'd take the 'well' out of your statement, but thanks for the vote of confidence. I'm seriously thinking of joining the sub 3 pacers in Frankfurt though I've never done that before.

Itziger

Tough week or 9 days coming up for me at a critical time too. I have a nasty head cold at the moment and even the Easy miles are a bit of a struggle on top of the 14 M miles last Sunday. The wife is heading off to see her parents for 8 days starting tomorrow and I'm left alone with 4 kids and me not the driving type.

Can I do the Q2 session tomorrow..........? I'll see how the body is feeling but I can't be cutting too many more corners now with 5 and a half weeks to target.

Itziger

Well, I more or less did the session. The cold had cleared up a bit and certainly hadn't 'gone to the chest' which is what I'd been fearing. I felt ok but still 'amended' the prescribed workout.

Warm up was much shorter as I couldn't leave the two smallies at home alone for too long waiting for their dinner! I eventually did 4x 3.03k at HM pace instead of the daunting 4 x 3.2k + 2 x 1.6k. At least I hit the paces for the 4 reps. Don't think the body was on for anymore tbh. I was thinking, will I do just one of the miles at the end but decided to head home.

Not ideal but still a decent workout in the middle of another 70 mile week. The extra 2 miles of MP stuff last Sunday hasn't gone unnoticed I fear.

Itziger

I bloody knew this workout was going to be tougher in reality than it appears on paper.

6E+2T+6E+2T+1E.

Jaysus, going from E to T pace is no joke. Even knowing this and speeding up a little before the T miles clicked in, I found it really hard to achieve the 6.20 pace. First of the two was about 6.28 and the second, fortunately, was faster than target. Then the second section of E felt anything but and the second set of 2T was a bit Meh!

The Garmin started acting the bolli$ and I genuinely believe the second of the two T miles was on target. Anyone else use 'lap pace'? Well I looked at it after about 1k of the mile and it was marking 3.55 - just right. Ok, says I, keep her ticking over now... Then I look again and it's gone to 4.06 or something. Even upping the effort for the last few hundred metres I couldn't pull the pace back on target.

Feeling tired these days but the long weeks have actually finished now. No more 70 milers so I'm hoping I'll start to feel fresher. That's the idea, right!?

belcarra

Check the course outline and see if the tracking veers off unexpectedly. That would account for a surprise change in pace.
(Although if there was an extra bit added it should improve the pace. If there is a straight line in there then it will worsen the pace.)

I wouldn't worry too much about it anyways as it was only a small bit of a small segment of a single training run. Keep the faith!

Itziger

belcarra wrote: »

Check the course outline and see if the tracking veers off unexpectedly. That would account for a surprise change in pace.
(Although if there was an extra bit added it should improve the pace. If there is a straight line in there then it will worsen the pace.)

I wouldn't worry too much about it anyways as it was only a small bit of a small segment of a single training run. Keep the faith!

Yeah, you're right about 'keeping the faith'. It can be hard sometimes to sit back and trust the plan though. Even one written by Jack Daniels!

I'm still glad I did the 14 mile MP session instead of just 12 and if I'm ok this coming weekend, I'll go a little longer than 32k. Not much, but just a bit over. Doesn't 20 miles seem a bit basic for the longest run in a programme?

belcarra

Itziger wrote: »

Doesn't 20 miles seem a bit basic for the longest run in a programme?

I'd always aim to get in a couple of 22 milers at least.
Having said that I'll be on a wing and a prayer this Sunday in Berlin!:pac:

Itziger

belcarra wrote: »

I'd always aim to get in a couple of 22 milers at least.
Having said that I'll be on a wing and a prayer this Sunday in Berlin!:pac:

Hey, good luck in Berlin. When did your injury problems start up this year, was it before or during that Dusseldorf marathon?

belcarra

Itziger wrote: »

Hey, good luck in Berlin. When did your injury problems start up this year, was it before or during that Dusseldorf marathon?

Cheers D!
Injuries started around beginning of April, about a month before Dusseldorf.
I raced the marathon anyways and fell apart in the second half which no doubt worsened the injuries. Real stop/start getting back into it afterwards as I never really gave the injury a chance to heal and it's only in the past month that things are settled down. Only problem now is though that I'm sooo unfit and far off my times that I'm just gonna base build this Autumn and hope to maybe improve 5k times in Parkruns over the Winter and then come new year I'll focus on a race plan.
Perhaps even avoid a Spring target marathon and just concentrate on up to HM til April/May, race the Summer and should be strong then for upping to marathon level come October.

Then again, I might just race a 100km in May instead!:pac:

Itziger

This week's Q2 almost went down the swannie as I'd completely forgotten to charge the Garmin. Fortunately I know my 1km markers really well by now and I have a fairly good idea of pace I suppose. No way could I do the full 8 miles of the first part of the workout though. After 5.5 E miles I got into the 6x1k @ 10k pace (or 'I' if you prefer). Felt tough enough but that's to be expected. I did manage to jog the recovery bits - don't know how close to 3 minutes they were.

As for the 200'R'+200jog x 6 (?), well I was planning on not doing that anyway. I'm wary of doing damage with short sharp stuff at this stage.

This weekend says 32k I believe but I'll be looking to do 34 or 35. Easy probably, time on feet and all that.

Itziger

Jeez, here's hoping the taper has me in better shape in 4 weeks time. Tough old 35k this morning. Was going well enough, albeit with a tender left calf from the off, till about 4k from finish when the right hip got sore. If that were to happen on race day with a good bit to go...... Last 15 minutes were painful and ugly as hell to watch I'd say. Lots of dragging the right leg through.

Anyway, positives. Done after a heavy few days (for me). 4 previous days had been 10 miles average, so the legs were a bit tired I suppose.

Was thinking of Yaboya and co in Berlin. Got home and checked the score. Sub 3 0 - Yaboya 1!!

Itziger

Thought I recovered quite well after Sunday's 35k effort. Got in a real easy and short 4 miler on Monday and then a 10 mile at 8 min pace yesterday which went well too, beautiful afternoon for it. However, the hip is sore now. All I'm doing so far is rubbing on a bit of cream and this morning took a couple of Ibuprofen. Will take a rest day today which is fine but I'm a bit worried about Q2 again this week. It's a thin line between getting the sessions done and staying healthy. I'm in fairly good nick I reckon so I'll be smart about it. I'm not going to go mad on a workout if I think it'll damage anything with just 3.5 weeks to go.

Maybe 8 miles would have been enough yesterday

Slightly mad question here maybe...... Has anyone taken a couple of pain-killers during a race? Would it be dangerous, counter-productive??

Ososlo

I took two neurofen plus before a half marathon. I was grand until 10 miles and then died a death and almost fainted and never felt so awful in my whole life. Though I was gonna die. The strangest pains in my stomach and chest.
Maybe something less strong might be ok but I personally wouldn't chance it ever again.

belcarra

I've taken nurofen on a couple of marathons/ultras. They did me good at a time when everything was aching and I just wanted to get it done.
Having said that I'd definitely stay away from them in training as they will only mask pain which could lead to bigger injury problems before your goal race. If it hurts in training then treat it properly!
On the day itself though it can aid the attainment of the goal I feel.

Regarding it's side effects on your system/liver, etc. when in a tired state, you should consult your pharmacist!

I'd leave out that Q2 session also if you are that wrecked...no point in a tiny percentage gain if the flip-side is an injury!

Itziger

belcarra wrote: »

I've taken nurofen on a couple of marathons/ultras. They did me good at a time when everything was aching and I just wanted to get it done.
Having said that I'd definitely stay away from them in training as they will only mask pain which could lead to bigger injury problems before your goal race. If it hurts in training then treat it properly!
On the day itself though it can aid the attainment of the goal I feel.

Regarding it's side effects on your system/liver, etc. when in a tired state, you should consult your pharmacist!

I'd leave out that Q2 session also if you are that wrecked...no point in a tiny percentage gain if the flip-side is an injury!

Thanks J. It's a right little balancing act at the moment; workout which may lead to more damage or rest which means you're skipping 'key' sessions. I say 'key' cos this week's Q2 is another one of those 4E+ 5x1k+ 4E or some such. I want to be in shape to do the MP workout on Sunday (or Saturday if I can persuade Mrs Itz to go to Longchamp for the geegees).

I'm determined not to lose it as much as poor old Yaboya with the taper madness but Christ, the time seems to be flying. As for the Neurofen, I might stick a couple in my pocket on the day. Remind me how many livers we've got again.

Itziger

As expected no Q2 session this week as I'm trying to nurse the hip.... Did an easy 6 miler instead and did it near home so I could bail out if the injury got worse. It didn't but I'm happy I made the right decision in not attempting the much more demanding Q2 workout.

So it continues. As I sit here typing I can just 'feel' the hip. Not even sore, just feel it!! Do I try a run today and/or tomorrow or do I rest as much as possible for the Sunday Q session?

Itziger

Q1 3 weeks out, session salvaged. My current bout of stupidity continues as I discovered I'd left the Garmin in work. So, one small faced, girly Ice watch later, out I go. I was lucky that the distances were easily computed. I did change the 6 miles to 10k as I know the km markers so well by now. The prescribed run was 2E+6M+1E+6M+2E and as I was doing 10k instead of 6 miles I was doing a tiny bit more of the quality.

Of course all I could really keep track of was the 5k spilt and even then I was squinting at the watch hand trying to figure out where it was.. First 10k was a bit fast, it certainly bloody felt that way. 41 mins. Jogged for about a mile and then the second part. Was a bit slower but then again it should be. Just right in fact I reckon, 42.30. The 3k jog home felt like hell for some reason. Maybe the wine and brandy and really late night I'd had.

Can't say I'm feeling great about this Frankfurt marathon on the horizon but we'll keep tipping away and see what happens.

Itziger

Where to start? Just nailed one of the last sessions and I get home and can barely move my right leg. Pain from hip to thigh. Am currently in bed having taken a painkiller. 1g mofo thing. Will have to see how the next few days go and take things real easy. Could be looking at a first ever DNS if this doesn't clear up

Was actually really happy with the actual workout. The T miles (4x2) went well, although I nearly screwed up by going too fast on the 2nd rep. 12.18 instead of 12.40 Oooops!

Told the old body I'd do M pace on the last 2 miles instead of T and I did indeed start off slower. Looked at watch and it was showing between the two paces and it definitely felt a lot more comfortable. So as the last rep went on I decided to up the ante after all and I just managed to come in on target. This meant I was able to go sub T pace on the last of the 8 miles so, like I say, I was actually quite pleased with that.

Though I had felt the area during the run I wasn't expecting the thing to be this bad afterwards. Will just have to see how next few days go. Taper might be more laid back than ever.

Itziger

Hip very much on the mend. Will sit out today's Q1 though. I think it's the first Q1 session missing in the programme. I also think the body needs a fairly easy taper and that's more or less what I plan to give it.

Shame it's such a lovely day here.................

Finnt

Good to hear the hip is on the mend,one Q1 session missed won't make any difference now, take it easy get to the start line fit and healthy.

yaboya1

I've read on here before that those Daniels plans either make you or break you, so if you get to the start line you should be ok
Let's hope that's the case.

Itziger

Yep, it seems to be a bit of a test alright! Went for a stroll with herself and while there is no pain, I think I was right to take today off at least. Next couple of days will be 'jog and see' and if things are good, I'll do one or two more Q sessions and that's it.

Itziger

Yay! Finally something like a confidence booster. I just did a 10 miler with 2E+1T+2M+1T+2M+2E and the session went well. A little on the fast side, pace-wise but not stupidly fast. Hip feels good enough too, so that's a bonus.

The paces should be 6.20 and 6.45 for the T and the M respectively. What I did was:

6:15, 6:34, 6:41, 6:15, 6:39, 6:40. The weird thing is, it's hard to 'slow down' to M pace after a faster mile. On one of the M miles, I was really conscious of not overdoing it and I said, 'ok, lad, rein her in'. But it's not that easy! For future reference and for anyone who wants to experiment, it's the kind of workout that I'll look to do more of in, with little variations. I think the mixture of these two paces is beneficial. Don't ask me for the science but I just feel, this is a good session. Would it be an idea maybe to try M first and then T?

As I haven't come down on the last shower, I don't think that the upcoming 42.2k thingy is now 'in the bag'. However, it's nice to nail a session and not feel like you're about to die at the end of it. 10 days to go!

yaboya1

So if it hasn't broken you........

I think you know

Itziger

Well. after Thursday's effort came a heavy-legged, hard breathing 5 mile recovery jog yesterday that almost sucked the confidence back out of me. Had to WALK during it for about 100m. This morning - an autumn morning from paradise - got out for a nice slow, slow 7 miler. Legs and breathing feeling much happier.

Hope to do maybe 12 easy tomorrow and then very little during the week, just a couple of leg looseness. Will see about throwing in a couple of M pace miles. Either during tomorrow's session or Tuesday.

So this 2nd last week has been 39 miles as opposed to Daniels suggested 56 but as I missed last Sunday's Q1 workout.... I would actually have been near the prescribed.Truth be told I never intended doing the 56. It always sounded too much.

Itziger

So, last "L" run done today. 12 miles, felt a bit long for 1 week to go but felt ok. Kept it easy but not too slow.

Weighed myself afterwards and noticed the biblical figure of 666 (66.6kg) on the scales.

belcarra

Best of luck on Sunday Itzi!
Enjoy the 6 hours in the pub regardless!!

Itziger

Hmmmm...... 6 miler done with middle 2 at MP. Bleeding wind man, hope that settles down. The first MP mile was uphill but with wind and second was downhill and headwind. 2nd was worse I reckon. The legs feel ok. Not incredible but not too 'heavy' either.

yaboya1

Good luck on Sunday.
Make sure to join the club

Itziger

I'll try my best!

Btw, I know a lad who did Hamburg this year (3:00:05, in his first marathon!) and spoke very highly of it. The atmosphere and course were great, though he has nothing to compare the course with, it being his first.

yaboya1

Itziger wrote: »

I'll try my best!

Btw, I know a lad who did Hamburg this year (3:00:05, in his first marathon!) and spoke very highly of it. The atmosphere and course were great, though he has nothing to compare the course with, it being his first.

Sure you might end up joining me in Hamburg. You never know.

Itziger

yaboya1 wrote: »

Sure you might end up joining me in Hamburg. You never know.

If I miss the two 59/59 on Sunday I'll join you in Hamburg but with you as my sub 3 pacer

belcarra

Did someone mention Hamburg??
Hmmmm.... tempting!

yaboya1

Unlucky yesterday. Sub 3 next time.
Hamburg??

ThebitterLemon

Tough day yesterday. Well done on seeing it out. I know exactly how you were feeling yesterday. Keep the faith.

Ps I ran Hamburg a couple of years ago and it was absolutely roasting, personally, despite it been a cool city and nice course, I wouldn't use it as a PB attempt.

TbL

Itziger

Tough day is right. Sixth marathon and first that hasn't been a pb. Also cramped earlier than ever so that was fairly depressing after 16 weeks of training. Will have to reconsider my approach to training. First impression says I have to go longer in training and maybe forget the T efforts or at least cut em down. No plans for the moment though.

Itziger

Being a bit naughty here. Copied and pasting the following from the PRoC* thread I post on. May hit the log on the head, I'll see how the next month or two go.
*PeoplesRepublicofCork


The following is not a race report:

6 days later, back home, sipping my morning coffee and looking forward to a few short miles in an hour's time.

Training for this my 6th marathon had gone fairly well, although it often left me drained and I was skimping a bit on a few of the sessions. How I hadn't spotted the fact that there were only 2 twenty-milers in the programme, I don't know. And me a fella who the bears in the woods know has problems with endurance. In fact 1 of the long runs I extended by 3k. This is going to be my biggest change next time up. I'll be looking to go longish, maybe up to 24 miles, and get in about 6 runs in total of 20+ miles. I'd also be looking to do a few of those as either progression or last hour of 3 hr run at MP. That's a session I've seen in the Garmin Advanced training programme. I'll be almost ignoring the fancy T sessions but not altogether. I thought the mixture of pace was interesting in some of the workouts in the Daniels plan.

As for the race itself....... There truly isn't that much to be said about it. I stupidly didn't print out a little map of the city and where my hotel was so got a bit lost on Saturday after picking up number and walked a couple of miles extra that I could have done without. The morning of the race went fine and I got a kick out of spotting our own DeSelby..........as well as this lovely 'older' woman I often see on my training route. How weird is that in a group of 15,000 or so!

BANG! We're off. I quickly notice that one of the sub 3 pacers is going fairly sharpish and after a km or two I catch him up and tag on. We're slightly ahead of pace but that's what I was hoping for. The weather, it must be said, was near perfect, but it was quite warm and I wasn't too happy when after just 3k I wiped the forehead and noticed I was sweating a lot. I did have two salt tablets though and anyway the clouds drifted in later so temperature wouldn't be an excuse for failure.

For almost the whole first half I felt 'ok'. I never really felt super-comfortable but I didn't feel under much pressure either. As expected the first 10k in the city were a bit scrappy and twisty and like most I suspect, I was glad to cross the bridge and get out into the 'suburbs'. The water stations were a bit of a mess and continued to be so right up to km 30 as there was a big group with the pacers. I saw at least 4 or 5 people hit the floor, mostly at corners and bends - a couple of them sounded like very heavy falls too.

So, just after halfway in almost perfect time and I'm thinking - pure and simple concentration now lad, keep this rhythm and you could just do this sub 3 crack. Real simple stuff, breathe, relax, keep arms pumping but not like mad.... TWINGE in the right calf. The RIGHT!!!! This particular muscle hadn't given the least sign of cramping in the previous 12 months of running. Not in the 35k training bit, not in the 14 mile MP session........ never. I mean, not even tightness. But there it was the unmistakable sign that things were going to get messy. I tried my damnedest to ignore it and there was a couple of kms where it was so slight as to not make a difference to my pace. At about km 25 I was probably a hundred metres behind the balloon although I can't quite confirm that - I'd have to check a video clip. I knew that if the cramps really hit the sub 3 was over and that 3.02 or .03 would be the result.

When the other calf started to act up and when they got more serious, painful and inhibiting the stride, I fell back a bit more and had to make a call - do I push and push and hope that it all comes right in the last 10k and I can maybe make up 30 seconds and dip under the barrier or do I start a little 'limit your losses' strategy? The very last time I had this debate was around km 29 (I think). A few lads had passed me and I had no option but to let em go, then one guy comes to my shoulder and I said, c'mon, last chance saloon man. I stayed with him for a bout 500 mts I'd say and I think he may have dropped off (!!) then I spot a fella in a red top with a thickish neck. I began to focus real hard on the neck (Try telling this to someone who doesn't run marathons!). It was working till the next cramp and then the moment of truth arrived; the left hammy starts to cramp. It wasn't as bad as Rotterdam or Echternach where on both occasions I spent time sitting/lying admiring the skies but it meant my race was run and I had to pull over a couple of times to straighten the leg and try to ease the cramp. That meant that there were about 11 or 12k to go and I knew the time was ****ed and that this was going to be painful.
That's when I had to shout down the little voice saying, 'You could drop out here man, don't do any serious damage to the legs'. It was a very wise voice as you can see, but ultimately bull **** as it was the mind playing games. I shuffled, jogged, slowed and walked at stations to the finish. It was depressing and it was slow and it was humiliating but it was what it was. At km 37 we passed near the finish and I could have cried but I just said, keep her shuffling, you're doing grand!! I wasn't.

The finish. YaY! Fellas smiling, celebrating, hands in the air. WTF! Medal, space cloak, water, juice, fruit.... Walk around, return chip... Feeling fairly sorry for myself. After a shower I went back to the finish area and eventually met up with a few Boards lads who had all run spectacular times. A very nice bunch though and they really perked me up. Had a few beers, then a stroll to another place and a cab to another.... I had to leave em soon after DeSelby rocked up. I'll post about the massage I received along with a few tips for the future after this morning's run. First in 6 days but I'm dying to get out there. I must have caught the running bug!

That run I did just now was indeed lovely! Not a crawl either as legs felt fine.

Itziger

Well, the memory inhibiting drugs seem to have worked. Pisa marathon Dec 21st here I come. Now all I have to do is break the news to herself. Wish me luck.

belcarra

Itziger wrote: »

Well, the memory inhibiting drugs seem to have worked. Pisa marathon Dec 21st here I come. Now all I have to do is break the news to herself. Wish me luck.

Not at all strange that you'd be leaning towards Pisa...

yaboya1

belcarra wrote: »

Not at all strange that you'd be leaning towards Pisa...

Itziger

yaboya1 wrote: »

That doesn't look at all like Pisa

Any (or either) of you mad bastids on for it??

yaboya1

Itziger wrote: »

That doesn't look at all like Pisa

Any (or either) of you mad bastids on for it??

Not me. I'm finished with marathons for 2014 :cool:

belcarra

I'm off marathons 'til at least April.
I'm eager to rebuild my fitness at shorter distances over the Winter and then go longer in March/April to lay down a marker around May.
Loose plans so far but still difficult to resist the urge of every other marathon that pops up before then!!

Itziger

Well, didn't think I'd be back in training this quickly. After two initial untimed efforts at the weekend, I did a 15k medium paced bit of work this evening. Then got home and there's no-one here. Did 2k cool down but still no show so I spend 45 minutes in the cool, wet evening air. Not perfect but I think I'm ok. Was ravenous when I eventually got in the door. Had a protein bar and coffee and then immediately had dinner.

I hope to do about 5 days a week for this 6 week spell with less stress on faster stuff, more rest and longer weekend runs. Will decide race strategy much closer to the day.

opus

Itziger wrote: »

Well, the memory inhibiting drugs seem to have worked. Pisa marathon Dec 21st here I come. Now all I have to do is break the news to herself. Wish me luck.

No hanging about I see! Nice to catch up with you in Frankfurt. Best of luck in Pisa & I must go track down that thread on the PROC forum before I forget

Itziger

Copy and paste update.. Pisa back on the agenda after frustrating couple of weeks.

So, time for a little update on training. Said it wasn't worth my while till I had done this week's LR. After the hip problems, I decided to look into a few homemade solutions. I tried foam rolling the groin (To be done in one's room, door closed and loved one warned just in case). It looks suspiciously like you're humping the instrument in question. Then I saw another foam roll video for the hip as well as a few exercises. I definitely felt I was getting somewhere but of course wouldn't know till I went 'long'.

Yesterday I did my first half decent session of 14k with the middle 10 at or faster than MP. I only looked at the watch once and some of the kilometres were above and below the desired pace but `i wasn't worried. Leg felt fine. Then today the big test, could I go longer than 20 without the bloody hip/groin coming at me. So what I did was to get a roll of Kinesio Tape that I bought months and months ago and I applied some for the first time ever. BINGO! Don't know if it was the foam roller, the exercises, the tape or a mixture of all 3 but the pain was more or less absent. Towards the end I felt the top of the leg getting a bit sore but was able to run through it and even upped the pace for the last 2k a little. Total just over 26k.

All in all much happier than this time last week. Will use the tape again for sure and in fact will almost certainly try it on the calf muscles too. I'll be all strapped up, but if it works I don't give a damn. At least it's flesh coloured so I won't look too bad.