Season 4 Finale : HAVE read the books - spoilers possible

December2012

So here we are, approaching the end of a magnificent season and one of the best books in the book series.

The promo is here: http://youtu.be/_PA4pfwmFyE

The title is "the Children"

Possibly referencing Danaerys and her dragons, the shepherds daughter, LS, the Children of the Forest.

And of course, Tyrion and Tywin.

Can't wait!

GerB40

Usually I watch the new episodes first thing Monday morning but I'm going to wait till the evening to watch it with my non-reader friends. I want to experience the shock of Tyrion sorting out his daddy issues, I want to see if the hound gets mercy, I want to see Brans storyline see some sort of resolution. But most of all I want to relive the WHAT THE MOTHERFÚCKIN ABSOLUTE FÚCK?! moment of meeting what's left of Catelyn Stark..

I genuinely envy those who don't know what's in store for this finale. Bástards..

Soft Falling Rain

GerB40 wrote: »

Usually I watch the new episodes first thing Monday morning but I'm going to wait till the evening to watch it with my non-reader friends. I want to experience the shock of Tyrion sorting out his daddy issues, I want to see if the hound gets mercy, I want to see Brans storyline see some sort of resolution. But most of all I want to relive the WHAT THE MOTHERFÚCKIN ABSOLUTE FÚCK?! moment of meeting what's left of Catelyn Stark..

I genuinely envy those who don't know what's in store for this finale. Bástards..

Well, in a way, you don't really know what's in store either. I've a feeling there's going to be a lot of outrage tomorrow morning, even if the episode is brilliant.

It's sad tbh, personally as long as we get a quality episode I won't be too worried about deviations or omissions.

bopper

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

Well, in a way, you don't really know what's in store either. I've a feeling there's going to be a lot of outrage tomorrow morning, even if the episode is brilliant.

I have to quote this hilarious post from imdb. I think it's pretty accurate.

Much like every major event, the forum will be filled with hate.

People will hate if STANNIS! STANNIS! STANNIS! Isn't yelled for a full 15 minutes.
People will hate if stoneheart doesn't show up
People will hate if Dany shows up for more than one second, even if I do think her scene this episode will be good.
People will hate if the children of the forest don't look like how they pictured them
People will hate if the mountain is dead, and they dont show him poisoned.
People will hate if tyrion doesn't kill shae, or any of the scene is different.
People will hate if tywin doesn't say ''wherever whores go''
people will then hate if tyrion doesn't say something about *beep* gold even though he didn't even say it in the books.
People will hate absoloutely everything about this episode. EVEN IF IT IS THE BEST EPISODE THEY EVER MAKE, ONE THING WILL MAKE EVERYONE HATE IT.

Iwasfrozen

bopper wrote: »

I have to quote this hilarious post from imdb. I think it's pretty accurate.

Man I don't care about anything else but i will shít gold if Tywin doesn't say "wherever whores go".

Tristram

Tired Monday morning in work until I remembered I have this to look forward to later. Have perked up a bit now

Witcher

Ending;

No LS..goddammit

Liam O

Joke worthy altogether given what they had to work with. No Tysha, no Lady Stoneheart, it seems they are merging Bran's storyline with thatof Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat. I didn't think anything could annoy me more than Jojen dying the way he did but then they go and trivialise Tywins death. Everything was so short and pointless. The thing that Tyrion resents Tywin for the most completely cut out. Nothing between him and Jaime either. If Tyrion wasn't so wound up at Jaime's revelation he definitely would not have gone out to kill Tywin imo. I was really coming around to the show after how well they dealt with the changes at the Wall but I think this was the last episode I'll watch until the books are finished. Argh.

mrkite77

Bran's storyline with thatof Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat

No no, Bran is an Argonaut!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF_Fi7x93PY

Nody

I feel they missed a great opportunity to not only make cross season story lines but also to make it way more epic rather then tying up the story lines for the season and moving people to be ready for next season's story lines. Why not have Stanis with the wildlings attacking the wall? Or have Shae beg for mercy (my great lion) to make the scene even more a gut puncher...

Witcher

I think the NW deserved the honour of repelling the first Wildling attack with their own strength, then Stannis breaks them before they can really hit the Wall. Played out pretty much the same as it did in the books.

GerB40

God fúcking dammit.... At every turn, for better or worse, I stood up for this show. Even changes I didn't like I understood because it's a tv adaptation. But what in the name of bollóx was that ending? There couldn't possibly be a better ending than Lady Stoneheart. I mean, the information is right there in the books but of course the bástards in charge had other ideas. Season 4 could have been the best, the finale (for me) fúcked that up...

Edit: Having thought about it, it makes a bit of sense television wise. Even though LS would have made an unbelievable cliffhanger the show runners need as much storyline for season 5, lest it be as uneventful as the books.
One possibility I've been thinking about is that they open next season with a seemingly irrelevant PoV from the eyes of a dire wolf wandering the wilds. The unknown wolf could pick up the scent of rotting flesh and eventually find the body of a naked woman washed up on a river bank. As soon as the feast begins Arya wakes up and viewers will realise that it was her warging into Nymeria (setting up the fact that she's a warg too).
The next time we see this corpse she won't be quite as dead....

December2012

Did anybody else watch all through the end credits thinking...ooooookaaaay maybe they'll sting the end with Stoneheart...... Any time now ...... Any time now...... Huh?

Soft Falling Rain

Brienne and the Hound was absolutely brutal, heart in mouth stuff. Highlight of the episode for me.

TBH I kind of resigned myself to the fact that there would be no LS before they cut to Tyrion's escape. I was looking at the clock while The Hound was begging for mercy and it went on longer than I expected. So unless they were doing a rushed hatchet job on Tyrion (which I don't think they did) I knew there wouldn't be enough time to do the LS reveal justice.

Better to leave it to S5 than making a hamfisted effort at it before leaving us hanging (no pun intended) for 9 months.

FURET

Disappointed with Tywin's death especially, and annoyed by Jojen's.

It's maddening that more time isn't spent with the characters. For example, I really wanted to see much more of Tywin's private reaction to Cersei's revelation. Was he shaking? Was he sitting in silence? Did he cry? Was he perhaps truly tempted to spare Tyrion given that he had only just learned that his favorite children are actually incestuous? Failure to spend more time with the characters robs them of the depth that they deserve. We never get to see characters on their own. If you think back to the Sopranos, the scenes of Tony or Paulie on their own, where they were the only ones in the scene, always managed to deepen the characters. We get none of that in GoT.

The series is suffering from overstretch. I wouldn't mind if they focused on fewer characters per episode if it meant that we could get to know them better.

ArmaniJeanss

Hmmmm, haven't seen the episode yet but it sounds as if the live-in-running thread on westeros.org is going to be an absolute joyful read later.

Oh, and well played Lena Headley on that instragram LS pic a while back, top notch trolling.

bopper

I am really really surprised we didn't see LS. Out of everything people were hoping for in the season finale she was the one thing I was certain they were going to include.

I am disappointed in the episode overall, but I think it's more a case of my hopes being built up so much. In retrospect I'll probably appreciate it a lot more.

username123

Im glad Ive read the thread now, Ill be watching the episode later. I have adjusted my expectations accordingly.

Soft Falling Rain

The only worry I'd have about Lady Stoneheart's absence in this episode is that it would have made the most sense to pull the trigger now. Unless it's a very early introduction in S5 there would just be a slight worry that the character's dropped.

Rosy Posy

I did enjoy the episode- Stannis at the wall was visually stunning and I also loved the way they've represented the children of the forest- very like how I had imagined them. I was minorly irked that Bloodraven didn't have the tree growing through his eye- it wasn't immediately obvious that he only had one eye, leaving the line 'a thousand eyes and one' somewhat redundant.

Even though I really enjoyed the extra dimension the Tysha storyline gave to the Lannisters, I can see why they left it out. It would be so hard to show how much it meant to Tyrion without the pov from inside his head.

Liam O

Rosy Posy wrote: »

I did enjoy the episode- Stannis at the wall was visually stunning and I also loved the way they've represented the children of the forest- very like how I had imagined them. I was minorly irked that Bloodraven didn't have the tree growing through his eye- it wasn't immediately obvious that he only had one eye, leaving the line 'a thousand eyes and one' somewhat redundant.

Even though I really enjoyed the extra dimension the Tysha storyline gave to the Lannisters, I can see why they left it out. It would be so hard to show how much it meant to Tyrion without the pov from inside his head.

Not really, all you would have to do was show him being a dick to Jaime, literally the same as in the book. They just trivialised everything. It was a random decision from Tyrion to go and kill Tywin in this whereas in the book it was the Tysha revelation that drove him to take the biggest risk he could have at that moment. The scene on the privy just lacked the emotion required and Shae's death was also lacking something, probably a good actress more than anything.

The fireball thing wasn't in the book in any shape or form was it. To have Jojen reduced to being killed by his sister and obliterated by a fireball was silly. If you were going to have someone save them why not Coldhands? Just pointless deviations.

username123

Liam O wrote: »

It was a random decision from Tyrion to go and kill Tywin in this whereas in the book it was the Tysha revelation that drove him to take the biggest risk he could have at that moment.

Considering Twyin is responsible for sentencing Tyrion to death its hardly random!

Nody

username123 wrote: »

Considering Twyin is responsible for sentencing Tyrion to death its hardly random!

Compared to the books? Yes it is. Why would he simply not run away which was the goal; why the need to get revenge on a father who's approval he's been craving since day 1? Because he found out about Tysha; his first true love. Instead in the episode he gets freed, is on his way out and as an after thought decides oh wait let me go kill my father before running away.

bopper

Nody wrote: »

Compared to the books? Yes it is. Why would he simply not run away which was the goal; why the need to get revenge on a father who's approval he's been craving since day 1? Because he found out about Tysha; his first true love. Instead in the episode he gets freed, is on his way out and as an after thought decides oh wait let me go kill my father before running away.

The episodes aren't written with "compared to the books" in mind though. Response to the episode from non readers seems to be largely positive.

username123

Nody wrote: »

Compared to the books? Yes it is. Why would he simply not run away which was the goal; why the need to get revenge on a father who's approval he's been craving since day 1? Because he found out about Tysha; his first true love. Instead in the episode he gets freed, is on his way out and as an after thought decides oh wait let me go kill my father before running away.

Im not making a comparison with the books, this is the tv show under discussion is it not?

Given what we have seen on screen, Tywin has hurt Tyrion over and over again, its no surprise at all that Tyrion would want to kill him. Plus - he needs to get rid of him or the mighty reach of Tywin Lannister could follow him wherever he goes.

Nody

bopper wrote: »

The episodes aren't written with "compared to the books" in mind though. Response to the episode from non readers seems to be largely positive.

And if they had included Tysha (which would have taken 3 min dialogue earlier (with anyone, his old lover, new lover, squire, dreams while wounded etc. and another 1 min in this episode as a throw away comment from dear old brother) it would have been brilliant and explained but they did not; which is a pity. In the end the series is not based to be exactly as the book but a lot of it reflects over; adding a bit of human nature and character does not hurt the series and put the action in my clearer lights and helps justify the action better then "you sentenced me to death so now that I'm running away I'll kill you first!". It would also help set up the upcoming issues for Jamie regarding his feeling of his dwarf brother knowing he was the trigger for the action he took.

Mr.Prodston

I don't want to be that guy but.... (I will be :pac:)...goddammit they butchered it. Tywin's death was up there with the Red Wedding for me, moreso in fact. It all just seemed off, yes in broad strokes everything happened the same but it was so different at the same time. I'm not against Jaime and Tyrion ending on good terms but it's their conversation that truly is the catalyst. If Tysha was never mentioned on the show then fair enough but she was and they just seem to have missed a trick.

Also how the hell did the men in the Eyrie just leave Westeros' most wanted man and Arya Stark, you know one of the most important people in the realm who is presumed dead just leave? It just doesn't add up.

For what was billed as the finest hour of the show so far I can't help but feel massively underwhelmed. It's my problem I know and I'm sure people who just watch the show will be happy enough with what they've seen but it just niggles at me.

Dany's scene was well done, Stannis arrived, the hound isn't confirmed dead and Arya is off to Braavos. I enjoyed all of those scenes. A little surprised they killed Jojen off though.

I'll let it all sink in and rewatch it tonight so maybe I'll come back a little less grumpy. I'd even forgotten about Lady S but I'd better not start on that :P

Nerdlingr

No LS!! gutted. Was really looking forward to that reveal ! Thought the end of season 4 would have been perfect... it would leave the non book readers stewing over it for another year!! Last shot of the season + LS taking off her hood = Jaw on the ground moment. Think they missed a trick...dont know if the impact will be as big if they do it in the middle of next season.

jebidiah

Nerdlingr wrote: »

No LS!! gutted. Was really looking forward to that reveal ! Thought the end of season 4 would have been perfect... it would leave the non book readers stewing over it for another year!! Last shot of the season + LS taking off her hood = Jaw on the ground moment. Think they missed a trick...dont know if the impact will be as big if they do it in the middle of next season.

I still don't get why people were still hoping for that this season. It's been pretty obvious for the last few weeks that it wasn't going to happen soon.

We would need to be reintroduced to the BwB first at least. And there was no way they could have fit that in this episode.

Im pretty pissed they altered Jamie and Tyrions scene. Especially when they added the Beatle scene last week. I loved that scene, but I'd of dropped that in favor of the actuall conversation

RobbingBandit

Another pointless death in Jojen, Vargo Hoat death for the hound as she bit off his ear, great end scene with him and Arya. Scooby Doo Rains of Castamere when Jamie and Tyrion were running down the tunnel was good too.

Witcher

Jojen is dying in the books anyway, better off killing him now rather than dragging it out.

Tom.D.BJJ

The Hound kicked Brienne right in the mary :D:D

RobbingBandit

Captain thought Arya was a Faceless Man.

RobbingBandit

Blay wrote: »

Jojen is dying in the books anyway, better off killing him now rather than dragging it out.

Jojen was a greenseer, might be the reason the three eye raven killed him as he could see the future/predict the future and could have told Bran that this guy is an evil ****er, at least that is my guess.

Nerdlingr

jebidiah wrote: »

I still don't get why people were still hoping for that this season. It's been pretty obvious for the last few weeks that it wasn't going to happen soon.

We would need to be reintroduced to the BwB first at least. And there was no way they could have fit that in this episode.

Im pretty pissed they altered Jamie and Tyrions scene. Especially when they added the Beatle scene last week. I loved that scene, but I'd of dropped that in favor of the actuall conversation

I was hoping for it because its the ultimate cliffhanger. As I said imagine the non-book readers reaction if the whole season ended on that reveal?
Dont see how it was pretty obvious. The fact this episode was 60 odd minutes long only gave greater rise to the hope that LS would be in it.
Re-introducing BwB could be done in about 30 seconds aswell. They come across a group of Freys along the road, Thoros of Myr introduces who they are, take their gold and proceed to string em up. Wouldnt take more than 2 minutes.

username123

Nerdlingr wrote: »

I was hoping for it because its the ultimate cliffhanger. AS i said imagine the non-book readers reaction if the whole season ended on that reveal?
Dont see how it was pretty obvious. The fact this episode was 60 odd minutes long only gave greater rise to the hope that LS would be in it.
Re-introducing BwB could be done in about 30 seconds aswell. They come across a group of Freys along the road, Thoros of Myr introduces who they are, take their gold and proceed to string em up. Wouldnt take more than 2 minutes.

Yeah Thoros of Myr is very distinctive onscreen, I think it could have been easily handled in a short scene.

chupacabra

The butthurt about the lack of Lady Stoneheart is utterly baffling. It would have been a great ending to the season but some people are calling for the show runners to be sacked and hurling personal insults at them. She will appear next season. Its likely that her reveal will happen once Brienne is captured by the BWB later on in season 5 much like how it went down in a feast for crows.

I am a bit annoyed about the lack of the Tysha story. Jamie and Tyrion parting ways on good terms is nice tv but I really wanted that moment of transformation within Tyrion from relieved and thankful to be free to the broken empty hate filled man that caused him to head for the tower of the hand and define the nature of his character in the later books.

Also Varys going across the narrow sea with Tyrion? I bet they are going to replace Jon Connington with Varys and let Pycelle die of old age or something.

username123

That The Hound was left with a leg injury lends support to him as the gravedigger on the Quiet Isle.

mrkiscool2

I just read the non-book readers thread there and they are hailing it as the greatest finale ever. I'd love to not have known what was going to happen but I'm still very annoyed at the way it went down.

First on the LS thing. I was building up for that. A whole season of waiting because it floored me in the books as well (something that the ASOIAF does to me a good bit but this was one of the biggest shocks for me). I really wanted to see what the reveal would be like, how they would do it etc. I know the BWB will probably capture Brienne early in the new season and we will get the reveal there but still. Infuriating.

Also, what was with Tryion going to find Tywin? What reason did he have? Why didn't Jaime tell him about Tysha? Like that was most of the reason for letting Tryion escape (at least in the books). And it just made that the fact he went to the room so dangerous for seemingly nothing! At least if he talked about Tysha then it would make sense for Tyrion to put himself in danger. Also, I didn't like Shae's death. I wanted her to plead for her life like in the books. Would have been way better.

Didn't really like the episode at all. And had I not seen the book I probably really would have enjoyed it (though I would have brought up the illogicality of Tyrion's decision in the first place.)

hussey

I really don't see how people thought she was going to be in the TV series, I mean she is rarely in the books, how many chapters do we have on LS? 3 (the runaway frey, the ransomed frey & Brianne ), for a TV adaptation I can't see why they would have her come back. Her part can be played (up to book 5) by the brotherhood.

I thought the fight between the hound & Brianne was excellent and gruesome, Arya was cold as ice leaving him to die.

I was more disappointed Tyrion didn't find out about his wife from Jamie.

Great episode and possibly the best season (since 1)

I'm a partial book reader, but really think a lot of people's judgement is clouded by the way things happened in the books.

If I was watching it without having read the books, I would have thought Tyrion was off to have his final say with his father, and maybe he thought his father wouldn't stop him from escaping afterwards. Bit of a crazy move, sure, but I don't think he entered that room with the intention of killing his father. To me, it was only discovering Shae and subsequently killing her, that led to him wanting to kill his father.

I also thought almost nothing was made of the killing of Shae in the books. It seemed to be over and done with so quickly that I had to read it again to make sure that it had actually happened.

Mr Freeze

Haven't see the episode yet, but I am not one bit surprised that LS was cut, and have said so all season long.

That said, I am disappointed, its far from one of the best twists in the books, but it would have made for an incredible cliffhanger in the show.

Plus dead Freys, what's not to like? :pac:

PhlegmyMoses

Couldn't really care less about LS at this point in the books, let alone whether she appears now or next season. It's just a sideshow story at the moment. Cool but barely relevant at present.

Tyrion and Tywin was a bit weak compared to the books but it really is the time constraints letting the show down, and even then, only slightly. If they could have 12/13 episodes a season and a bigger budget it would give them more room to expand on these characters.

Because of the sheer amount of characters GRRM has put into the books, it is very difficult to include every little thing. People may come back with Grey Worm and Missendei as examples of superfluous content, but such examples are few and far between.

My biggest worry now is that I need to make a decision on whether to keep watching or wait for the books. There is very little of Bran's story left, for example, and we may fall into Night King territory a lot more next season.

Daith

Not surprised or disappointed bout LS though Arya's comments that her mother was dead was a perfect lead in.

I'm more disappointed we didn't get Arya howling at a wolf pack but they might be leaving Arya as a warg as a surprise for viewers next season.

The Tyrion/Tywin scenes felt rushed but. Whatever Tyrion's motivation was (wanted to ask his father why he wanted him dead, showed that he had escaped) would have be triumphed by seeing Shae anyway though.

PhlegmyMoses

Basil3 wrote: »

I'm a partial book reader, but really think a lot of people's judgement is clouded by the way things happened in the books.

If I was watching it without having read the books, I would have thought Tyrion was off to have his final say with his father, and maybe he thought his father wouldn't stop him from escaping afterwards. Bit of a crazy move, sure, but I don't think he entered that room with the intention of killing his father. To me, it was only discovering Shae and subsequently killing her, that led to him wanting to kill his father.

I also thought almost nothing was made of the killing of Shae in the books. It seemed to be over and done with so quickly that I had to read it again to make sure that it had actually happened.

This is the other thing. Shae essentially replaces Tysha as Tyrion's motivation to kill his dad in the TV adaptation. He kills Shae because she betrayed him and to prevent her from raising the alarm.

He blames Tywin for setting in motion the events that caused him to kill someone he loved.

MacBizzle

There's a good chance LS will be in the first scene next season imo. They had so much to cover this season that the LS reveal would either have been rushed, or other parts would have been cut down to compensate. Like everyone's saying, there's not half as much to work with next season so they might as well wait to reveal LS then to make season five more entertaining.

That being said, Tywin's death could definitely have been improved on, although I don't think the whole Tysha thing would have made much sense to a non-book reader, she's been mentioned what, twice maybe in the show? The fact that he found Shae in Tywin's bed is good enough reason for me. If I hadn't read the books I wouldn't have much interest in the Tysha storyline, or Rhaeger Targaeryen for that matter. They have to make the show with the TV audience in mind, not just to satisfy the book readers, so imo the decision they made was reasonable enough.

Without the internal monologue of the books you don't get half as much depth to the characters, so some book readers believe some characters to be shallow because they've already got such insight into their thinking. Watching the show as a non-reader I don't think this would come to the surface and everything would seem grand.

All our complaints stem from being book-readers is basically what I'm saying. There's very little actually wrong with the show, the books are just so good and detailed that it makes it look like there is.

Daith

MacBizzle wrote: »

All our complaints stem from being book-readers is basically what I'm saying. There's very little actually wrong with the show, the books are just so good and detailed that it makes it look like there is.

Exactly. Really baffled at the "Why did Tyrion want to find his father. Yes I know his father tried to kill him but that's not proper motivation is it?"

Liam O

Daith wrote: »

Exactly. Really baffled at the "Why did Tyrion want to find his father. Yes I know his father tried to kill him but that's not proper motivation is it?"

Not at that moment, he was resigned to death one minute and freed, suddenly thinks "oh I'll risk all that Jaime has done to free me for revenge against Daddy". It's purely illogical. Then the whole scene just lacked the proper emotion. Tyrion breaking down after Shae's death goes completely against the empty pure anger he should be feeling at that stage and Dinklage is capable of better emotion than in the final scene with Tywin.

As for LS not being in the books much, neither was Robb Stark, didn't stop the whole 2nd season being pretty much based around him. Oberyn was in 3 chapters if I remember correctly too.

Daith

Liam O wrote: »

Not at that moment, he was resigned to death one minute and freed, suddenly thinks "oh I'll risk all that Jaime has done to free me for revenge against Daddy". It's purely illogical.

Except it's not is it? We don't know he went there for revenge. He only picked up a weapon after killing Shae.

He had motivation for wanting to see his father. When he saw Shae then it went to revenge and anger.

Nody

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

This is the other thing. Shae essentially replaces Tysha as Tyrion's motivation to kill his dad in the TV adaptation. He kills Shae because she betrayed him and to prevent her from raising the alarm.

Which is very weak as Shae had plenty of time to call out during the fight but did not (which irked me greatly; she had nothing to lose yet stayed quiet the whole time...).

Witcher

Non reader thread is infinitely more interesting than this one as usual.