Season 4 Finale : HAVE read the books - spoilers possible

Liam O

Daith wrote: »

Except it's not is it? We don't know he went there for revenge. He only picked up a weapon after killing Shae.

He had motivation for wanting to see his father. When he saw Shae then it went to revenge and anger.

His father is much bigger and stronger than him. Tyrion is smart, he's not going to take the risk of going there if not clouded by anger imo. Convenient he knew the way too without Varys help.

Liam O

Blay wrote: »

Non reader thread is infinitely more interesting than this one as usual.

Nobody cares.

MacBizzle

Liam O wrote: »

Not at that moment, he was resigned to death one minute and freed, suddenly thinks "oh I'll risk all that Jaime has done to free me for revenge against Daddy". It's purely illogical

He still risked all Jaime had done for him in the books when he went to get "revenge against Daddy", just that there were different circumstances, which still makes it an illogical act going by your reasoning.

Tyrion's life had been essentially ruined by Tywin; he got no recognition for all the hard work he'd done in King's Landing, is accused of killing his nephew even though he didn't kill him, and the his father goes and sentences him to death even though he knew Tyrion was innocent. Plenty of reason for him to kill him going by that.

Witcher

Liam O wrote: »

Nobody cares.

Aw say it ain't so Liam O?:pac:

I suppose here is still better, I'd miss you moaning about every scene of every episode if I went over there:pac:

Daith

Liam O wrote: »

His father is much bigger and stronger than him. Tyrion is smart, he's not going to take the risk of going there if not clouded by anger imo. Convenient he knew the way too without Varys help.

So he was clouded by anger because his father wanted him dead even though he knew Tyrion was innocent. Is Tyrion not allowed to be illogical?

And yes Tyrion probably does know his way around Kings Landing and buildings?

OneOfThem Stumbled

Daith wrote: »

So he was clouded by anger because his father wanted him dead even though he knew Tyrion was innocent. Is Tyrion not allowed to be illogical?

And yes Tyrion probably does know his way around Kings Landing and buildings?

I hate to be the stereotypical reader but... the Jamie-Tyrion-Tywin finale just sucked imo. Did I miss a scene? Is the first we see of Tyrion, Jamie turning up at the cell having murdered two guards? Security on the black cells seems pretty lax these days... and hell, the black cells are looking a lot better than when Eddard was there.

Just don't buy how Tyrion would be angry enough in this scene. With his... first wife... cannot remember her name... there was the implication that Tywin had fked Tyrion's life up; that his whoring and drinking from Dorne to the Wall was largely a consequence of this big lie, and the lie was created by Tywin "for the sake of the family".


Instead Tyrion seems to kill him because Tywin never loved him (as if that was any kind of revelation). Why not kill Tywin when he risked Tyrion's life against the forces of Roose Bolton and forbade him from bringing any whores to the capital? T'would make as much sense.

Other than that the episode had its highs (STANNIS!) and lows (Fancy a Stark, who announced to the world that they were a Stark, just walking away from the Bloody Gate).

Also lightning chucking children of the forest... :pac:

Daith

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Instead Tyrion seems to kill him because Tywin never loved him (as if that was any kind of revelation).

Nope not at all.

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Just don't buy how Tyrion would be angry enough in this scene.

Right his dad tried to kill him even though he knew Tyrion was innocent then his Dad was shagging his girl. Then Tyrion killed that girl. Nope, we def needed another backstory about another whore.

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Also lightning chucking children of the forest... :pac:

Didn't the Children of The Forest break the arm of Dorne or something? It's not like we haven't seen magic in the show before.

Mr.Prodston

Blay wrote: »

Non reader thread is infinitely more interesting than this one as usual.

I apologise, let Disco Snow entertain you:

OneOfThem Stumbled

Daith wrote: »

Nope not at all.

Tyrion always knew it - he had said as much a number of times.

Daith wrote: »

Right his dad tried to kill him even though he knew Tyrion was innocent then his Dad was shagging his girl. Then Tyrion killed that girl. Nope, we def needed another backstory about another whore.

But we already got the backstory

So... what's the point?

I mean, Shay's emotions for Tyrion were a lot more complicated than her just being a "lying whore" to quote Tyrion, but he wasn't to know that.

Daith wrote: »

Didn't the Children of The Forest break the arm of Dorne or something? It's not like we haven't seen magic in the show before.

Yeah, but always with a bit more subtlety.

Also, what's with all the wraiths outside the three eyed raven's home? This is the same in the books afaik, but you'd think someone would have got rid of them at some stage.

Daith

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Yeah, but always with a bit more subtlety.

What? Has that scene being depicted in the books?

Witcher

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Also, what's with all the wraiths outside the three eyed raven's home? This is the same in the books afaik, but you'd think someone would have got rid of them at some stage.

I don't think BR gets many visitors so it's never been a priority:pac:

Daith

Blay wrote: »

I don't think BR gets many visitors so it's never been a priority:pac:

Plus he wanted Jojen to die to make into weirwood paste.....

Witcher

Daith wrote: »

Plus he wanted Jojen to die to make into weirwood paste.....

There's Jojen paste all over the north now:pac:

Daith

Blay wrote: »

There's Jojen paste all over the north now:pac:

Was just a glamour. Not a real explosion or did the show ruin another book reader's wild theory?

Witcher

Daith wrote: »

Was just a glamour. Not a real explosion or did the show ruin another book reader's wild theory?

I think Meera cut his throat before she left him. They blew up his body to stop him becoming a wight.

GerB40

Daith wrote: »

Plus he wanted Jojen to die to make into weirwood paste.....

Well we can't have Brannibal now because Jojen is a pile of ash. It's a shame, I liked that theory..

Daith

GerB40 wrote: »

Well we can't have Brannibal now because Jojen is a pile of ash. It's a shame, I liked that theory..

GRRM kills characters that you like.

The TV Show kills theories that you like!

Liam O

Blay wrote: »

Aw say it ain't so Liam O?:pac:

I suppose here is still better, I'd miss you moaning about every scene of every episode if I went over there:pac:

If you've a problem with the discussion start a new one. Moaning eh? Good way to blanket discredit criticism. I've been quite complimentary of recent episodes. This one was poorly adapted.

Witcher

Liam O wrote: »

If you've a problem with the discussion start a new one. Moaning eh? Good way to blanket discredit criticism. I've been quite complimentary of recent episodes. This one was poorly adapted.

When you're criticising everything and anything you lose credibility. I'm not saying you're not entitled to your opinion, you most certainly are no matter what it is.

username123

Liam O wrote: »

If you've a problem with the discussion start a new one. Moaning eh? Good way to blanket discredit criticism. I've been quite complimentary of recent episodes. This one was poorly adapted.

Youre joking right? I suggest you go back and read your own posts, you are negative about every single episode. I dont want to go quoting all your negativity from other episode threads, but its there. Its as though you dont like the show at all.

Liam O

username123 wrote: »

Youre joking right? I suggest you go back and read your own posts, you are negative about every single episode. I dont want to go quoting all your negativity from other episode threads, but its there. Its as though you dont like the show at all.

The show has so much more potential than they are showing. When they have the right director they can do great things, the problem is that they spend time with ridiculous things like Grey Worm and Missandei among other pointless stories rather than give more time to big scenes like Oberyn and Clegane. I think I've said I don't really like the show on multiple occasions so not sure what that has to do with it. It's a collection of great scenes and casting around some terrible acting and structure most weeks. When they get it right it's amazing but it's few and far between.

MacBizzle

Liam O wrote: »

The show has so much more potential than they are showing. When they have the right director they can do great things, the problem is that they spend time with ridiculous things like Grey Worm and Missandei among other pointless stories rather than give more time to big scenes like Oberyn and Clegane. I think I've said I don't really like the show on multiple occasions so not sure what that has to do with it. It's a collection of great scenes and casting around some terrible acting and structure most weeks. When they get it right it's amazing but it's few and far between.

You sound like you just want the show to be the books, which isn't what they're trying to do,

GerB40

I assume that, because Varys left with Tyrion, we won't be seeing Illyrio (or whatever his name is) in Essos. Perhaps Varys will take his place and we'll get some of his back story, especially seeing as they're going to where Varys became "the spider".
Plus we'll have two of the most intelligent characters together trying to make the most of their new situations which sounds far more interesting than how it transpires in the book.
That does leave the whole Kevan Lannister thing though but that'll probably be changed too..

username123

Liam O wrote: »

The show has so much more potential than they are showing. When they have the right director they can do great things, the problem is that they spend time with ridiculous things like Grey Worm and Missandei among other pointless stories rather than give more time to big scenes like Oberyn and Clegane. I think I've said I don't really like the show on multiple occasions so not sure what that has to do with it. It's a collection of great scenes and casting around some terrible acting and structure most weeks. When they get it right it's amazing but it's few and far between.

I agree there is some dross, but the show is not meant to be the same as the books. It's playing for a non book reading audience too. Already many non book readers think there are too many characters on screen while us book readers are missing small characters like Strong Belwas.

I honestly cannot agree with you re terrible acting. Who?

MacBizzle

username123 wrote: »

I agree there is some dross, but the show is not meant to be the same as the books. It's playing for a non book reading audience too. Already many non book readers think there are too many characters on screen while us book readers are missing small characters like Strong Belwas.

I honestly cannot agree with you re terrible acting. Who?

DANY. Jesus, I could do a better job.

Witcher

Alex Graves on LS and the Hound

Looks like she's not going to appear at all.

Liam O

username123 wrote: »

I agree there is some dross, but the show is not meant to be the same as the books. It's playing for a non book reading audience too. Already many non book readers think there are too many characters on screen while us book readers are missing small characters like Strong Belwas.

I honestly cannot agree with you re terrible acting. Who?

Dany and Shae this season bring down the quality of every scene they're in. Bran is quite annoyingly acted even though I like the character. I think the show is acted well in general but some baffling decisions such as putting ex porn stars in lets it down hugely. Kit Harrington is very up and down too.

Liam O

MacBizzle wrote: »

You sound like you just want the show to be the books, which isn't what they're trying to do,

I don't. Last week's ep was as different to the books as could be and I thought it was brilliantly adapted. This week's was poorly done, they rushed through so many storylines with great potential. I've always maintained the show if on any other network would be 2-5 episodes a season longer which they could really do with rather than cramming so much into episodes that are for some reason normally 50 minutes these days.

GerB40

Blay wrote: »

Alex Graves on LS and the Hound

Looks like she's not going to appear at all.

I don't see it that way. He basically said that, to his knowledge, LS won't be appearing. But he isn't a writer, he's a director. Which means he can only work with the story D&D give him. He even makes a point of reminding the interviewer how secretive the writers are so he obviously can't tell whether or not they're keeping her in the show.
If she's irrelevant to the story as a whole they probably will cut her out. If she's relevant to the story down the line they might be keeping her up their sleeves until she matters.
Although the longer LS doesn't appear, the less believable her appearance will be but this is fantasy after all.

Witcher

GerB40 wrote: »

I don't see it that way. He basically said that, to his knowledge, LS won't be appearing. But he isn't a writer, he's a director. Which means he can only work with the story D&D give him.

He still has a lot of insight into how they want the series to run/play out. He has to know how they want things to flow so he can direct episodes. He's giving as definite a no as we have seen thus far.

I think this quote sums up how LS is seen within the context of D&D's show;

But to bring back Michelle Fairley, one of the greatest actresses around, to be a zombie for a little while — and just kill people? It is really sort of, what are we doing with that? How does it play into the whole story in a way that we’re really going to like?

I think they're trying to tone down some of the fantasy elements within the story; CH for example. LS will be a casualty of their stylistic direction I think. If they wanted her in they would have made time this season and had her in for the cliffhanger.

rawn

I'm actually shocked that so many people dislike Emilia Clarke's acting. I think she is one of the strongest actors in the series, her voice carries so much strength and I feel she portrays emotions in a more complex and believable manner than most of the other actors!

Witcher

rawn wrote: »

I'm actually shocked that so many people dislike Emilia Clarke's acting. I think she is one of the strongest actors in the series, her voice carries so much strength and I feel she portrays emotions in a more complex and believable manner than most of the other actors!

The only time her voice has any strength is when she's speaking Valyrian, the rest of the time she speaks in a monotone, half bored way.

GerB40

Liam O wrote: »

Dany and Shae this season bring down the quality of every scene they're in. Bran is quite annoyingly acted even though I like the character. I think the show is acted well in general but some baffling decisions such as putting ex porn stars in lets it down hugely. Kit Harrington is very up and down too.

Dany, fair enough I won't argue with you there. She's certainly not the worst actor I've seen but the quality of acting on this show is so high that she does seem a bit amateur in comparison.
Shea, I can't complain about her acting. She's done what was asked of her and any complaints I would have would be with how her scenes were written.
The same can be said about Bran. He did as well as any actor could with the little screen time he had.
Before this season I would have agreed with you regarding Kit Harrington but he was excellent this season. It was his time to shine and he acted accordingly.
Of all the reasons people can criticise Game of Thrones, acting definitely isn't one of them.

Iwasfrozen

GerB40 wrote: »

I don't see it that way. He basically said that, to his knowledge, LS won't be appearing. But he isn't a writer, he's a director. Which means he can only work with the story D&D give him. He even makes a point of reminding the interviewer how secretive the writers are so he obviously can't tell whether or not they're keeping her in the show.
If she's irrelevant to the story as a whole they probably will cut her out. If she's relevant to the story down the line they might be keeping her up their sleeves until she matters.
Although the longer LS doesn't appear, the less believable her appearance will be but this is fantasy after all.

What's the point of adapting the books at all if you leave out cool characters?

GerB40

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What's the point of adapting the books at all if you leave out cool characters?

I totally agree. After the red wedding, the Lady Stoneheart reveal was what I was looking forward to seeing the most. Even though she doesn't do an awful lot that initial shock just blew me the fúck away..
Realistically though, money restraints and more importantly time restraints make it difficult to fit her into a ten episode season.
We actually see her only twice that I remember, and most of the mentions of her are off the cuff remarks that only serve to remind the readers that she even exists.
Rumours of a mad lady leading the Brotherhood without banners are grand in a 600+ page book but next to impossible in the show unless she actually contributes to the story.
I really do hope she's important but I'm starting to get the feeling she ain't..

Awesomeness

As a tv show I thought that was awesome. But as a book reader I am very pissed.

Jojen dying was fine - dont like him in the books anyway but got my hopes up for coldhands. Brans story is too far ahead and heading in to unreleased books.

Brienne beating the hound annoyed me though I thought it was well done. No val or dalla. No LS.

And no tysha mention bit the cake. That tywin scene just seemed so boring and no shock or emotion to it compared to the books.

Again as a tv show awesome but i dont think i can enjoy this show anymore until after all the books are done

OneOfThem Stumbled

Unlike others I'm not a total purist about LS or Coldhands.

I think zombification as a plot device can only go so far.

The introduction of LS in the fist place always felt like a... little bit... of a cop out by GRRM. If you are going to kill a character, kill them; if not, don't. The only real purpose that LS serves is for revenge against the Freys. That, and the continued war in the Riverlands was really quite cool.

I haven't a clue where the war is atm in the series. Is Riverrun captured? Are the Brotherhood Without Banners Disbanded? Are the Ironborn doing... anything? Did Stannis lose Storm's End?

I mean, the war is kind of a big deal. Certainly more so than Jamie and Cersei's tempestuous romance.

Why introduce the Brotherhood Without Banners, and Beric Dondarrion, and all the rest, if you're gonna do nothing with it? Same deal with Tyrion's back story. Did they suddenly just say "ah nah, the viewers will have forgotten that stuff" and rip it out?

Iwasfrozen

GerB40 wrote: »

I totally agree. After the red wedding, the Lady Stoneheart reveal was what I was looking forward to seeing the most. Even though she doesn't do an awful lot that initial shock just blew me the fúck away..
Realistically though, money restraints and more importantly time restraints make it difficult to fit her into a ten episode season.
We actually see her only twice that I remember, and most of the mentions of her are off the cuff remarks that only serve to remind the readers that she even exists.
Rumours of a mad lady leading the Brotherhood without banners are grand in a 600+ page book but next to impossible in the show unless she actually contributes to the story.
I really do hope she's important but I'm starting to get the feeling she ain't..

She contributes to the story alright, Brienne's arc wouldn't be complete without her. I mean is Brienne suddenly going to decide to kill Jaime on her own?

But even if she didn't contribute to the story overall the rule of cool should be enough to see her in the show, otherwise what's the point of adapting the books at all if not for the sheer enjoyment of the viewers?

podgemonster

Well I thoroughly enjoyed that episode, the lack of LS was disappointing but I trust in D&D and what they have planned for season 5.

My guess is the Riverlands will be a major focus for next year and it's best to do it properly with a proper cast of bandits rather than bringing them on and for the sake of a 5 minute jaw dropper that'll be almost as effective in S5E1.

Bar S2 the show does like to end on a high and Arya smiling on a ship was a sweet moment. Firstly the Mannis bit was excellent, the size of the charge, the flashing of the banners, 2 men in the mist emerging. Wonderful. Poweful. Stannis.

I never tire of Hodor going apeshít, show went full fantasy there in that bit could be a sign of things in TWOW.

Cersei really rattled Tywin, he was more uncomfortable there than in the privy scene. Dance has been a tour de force from his first scene to his last I will miss him, we all will. As for the Tysha thing well if would never have worked. Even reading the illiterate thread they get confused over the smallest of things, bringing up a conversation from S1 would have melted their heads, it had to be about Shae in the end. Unfortunately necessary.

What wasn't necessary but freaking unreal was Brienne v. The Hound. That was a vicious fight, so much aggression. An amoured warriors just kicked a lady full for in the fanny and she does a Mike Tyson on him. The backdrop for the Arya scenes were incredible. The valley where the hound lay dying to the shore along where Arya rides to her boat. Beautiful

Did you know that one episode of Game of thrones is cheaper to make than an episode of Friends in its final season due to the demands of the leads. HBO are producing the most lavish expansive and well crafted series I have ever seen or possibly will ever. It's not perfect mind or totally in step in the books but I know I will be a little sadder next week when I don't see those epic opening credits.

A Great Season
#BringBackJoff

Iwasfrozen

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Unlike others I'm not a total purist about LS or Coldhands.

I think zombification as a plot device can only go so far.

The introduction of LS in the fist place always felt like a... little bit... of a cop out by GRRM. If you are going to kill a character, kill them; if not, don't. The only real purpose that LS serves is for revenge against the Freys. That, and the continued war in the Riverlands was really quite cool.

I haven't a clue where the war is atm in the series. Is Riverrun captured? Are the Brotherhood Without Banners Disbanded? Are the Ironborn doing... anything? Did Stannis lose Storm's End?

I mean, the war is kind of a big deal. Certainly more so than Jamie and Cersei's tempestuous romance.

Why introduce the Brotherhood Without Banners, and Beric Dondarrion, and all the rest, if you're gonna do nothing with it? Same deal with Tyrion's back story. Did they suddenly just say "ah nah, the viewers will have forgotten that stuff" and rip it out?

The beautiful thing about Lady Stoneheart is she is revenge personified. The North remembers and the Frey's severely wronged the Starks so now Lady Stoneheart is taking her revenge on anyone even loosely connected to Walder.

wyrn

I actually quite enjoyed it and I'm surprised by the reaction here. I think introducing LS as a cliffhanger would have been too much. For me the ending felt like the pieces on a chess board were set - some characters were removed from the game, some changed direction and others were brought to the front.

When you think about it, nearly all the main characters are off in a new direction, Varys, Tyrion, Ayra, Sansa, Bran, Stannis... Meanwhile those who are left pretty much where they were are not in as great or as safe as a position as they thought like Ceresi and Danys. To me it seems that to take over and hold power is much harder than in previous rebellions (Roberts). There is a big change in the air and yes winter is coming and what does that mean. It gave me chills (no pun intended) when Mance told Jon that he wanted to get the wildlings to safety behind the wall.

Soft Falling Rain

I'd still see LS as a banker to appear purely for the issue alone of what on earth will they do with Pod and Brienne if they cut the character? Why go to the effort of actually putting them together in the storyline if you're going to cut the legs from underneath it?

intellectual dosser

Disappointed...what happened to "Where do whores go?"

mrkite77

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What's the point of adapting the books at all if you leave out cool characters?

If you say so. I, for one, rolled my eyes when LS's identity was revealed in the books. I hated her character. She made a lot of really stupid decisions when she was alive, and continued to do so when she was a zombie. I'm glad she's not going to be in it.

RobbingBandit

Spoiler territory.

Lady Stoneheart is not a cop out, Cat had nothing left to live for, Sansa is lost to the Lannisters, Arys too as she hasn't been seen since the day Ned died, Bran and Rickon dead, Robb dead all as far as she knows at least. After Thoros brings her back from the dead as her throat has been slashed she now has no voice, all she is now is vengeance, Brienne did not retrieve the girls from Kings Landing so she failed and must be punished,Cat has no reason to live other than to see the Lannisters die, it will now be a total cluster **** on screen as the story has changed again and Brienne has seen Arya, oh HBO how you totally pissed this up is maddening to me.

Iwasfrozen

mrkite77 wrote: »

If you say so. I, for one, rolled my eyes when LS's identity was revealed in the books. I hated her character. She made a lot of really stupid decisions when she was alive, and continued to do so when she was a zombie. I'm glad she's not going to be in it.

She will be in it.

username123

I loved it.

Although I am confused on some issues! Have they just scrapped Cersei sleeping with the Kettleblacks?

And why wouldn't Brienne have told Arya that they were on the trail of Sansa?

Rory McCann, amazing. Definitely left the Quiet Isle theory open. The Hound vs The Mountain is still a dream!

Bit rushed with Tywin Lannister, also, they must be ditching Tyrion travelling with Penny or perhaps ditching Jon Connington, which would be a shame.

I was watching with a non book reader so I couldn't jump up and down shouting "Stannis! Stannis!" at the screen but it was amazing.

Bloodraven looked totally different to how I imagined him, my imagination had better cgi. But I did like the Children.

Arya off to Braavos. Yes.

Son0vagun

Balon Greyjoy is still alive!

Liam O

Son0vagun wrote: »

Balon Greyjoy is still alive!

Which would surely make Stannis doubt Melisandre's power which is another needless change.

Daith

Liam O wrote: »

Which would surely make Stannis doubt Melisandre's power which is another needless change.

Jesus. He's going to die. There's surely going to be a big focus on the Iron born next season.

Can you at least wait until the show actually shows this?