Season 4 Finale : HAVE read the books - spoilers possible

Mr.Prodston

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

Also how the hell did the men in the Eyrie just leave Westeros' most wanted man and Arya Stark, you know one of the most important people in the realm who is presumed dead just leave? It just doesn't add up.

Seriously though this still annoys me. Is it just a massive plot hole from the butterfly effect of changing the story which we're meant to ignore?

Maybe it's trivial but I find it so difficult to believe that they would be just let go.

Mickeroo

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

Seriously though this still annoys me. Is it just a massive plot hole from the butterfly effect of changing the story which we're meant to ignore?

Maybe it's trivial but I find it so difficult to believe that they would be just let go.

Yeah it made no sense to even have that scene, though I suppose if he was still taking Arya to the Aerie there would have been much less of a reason or Brienne to attack him.

username123

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

Seriously though this still annoys me. Is it just a massive plot hole from the butterfly effect of changing the story which we're meant to ignore?

Maybe it's trivial but I find it so difficult to believe that they would be just let go.

How would the Knights of the Vale have known the Hound was a wanted man? Tywin hardly sent Lady Lysa a raven personally. Very little time had passed since Tywin put a bounty on him so word probably hadn't spread.

As for Arya, unless she explicitly said "Let me in", they probably wouldn't invite her in. It was her Aunt she was looking for, her Aunt was dead, so why go in?

Daith

username123 wrote: »

As for Arya, unless she explicitly said "Let me in", they probably wouldn't invite her in. It was her Aunt she was looking for, her Aunt was dead, so why go in?

Yup especially if they know that Baelish is in charge. The last time Arya saw him, Baelish was helping Tywin.

username123

Daith wrote: »

Yup especially if they know that Baelish is in charge. The last time Arya saw him, Baelish was helping Tywin.

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be making any decisions re visitors. Surely only if a visitor says "let me in", do they send a message up to Lady Lysa and see what her instructions are? Seeing as she is dead, it's one of those situations where no one is officially in charge and they probably haven't been instructed what to do.

Daith

username123 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be making any decisions re visitors. Surely only if a visitor says "let me in", do they send a message up to Lady Lysa and see what her instructions are? Seeing as she is dead, it's one of those situations where no one is officially in charge and they probably haven't been instructed what to do.

Well I assume the guards know that Lysa married Petyr? So Petyr would have to be in charge?

I assumed it went like this

"Your aunt is dead"
"Ha ha ha ha.........ha ha"
"Who's in charge?"
"Lord Petry Baelish"
Arya and The Hound exchange a look
Arya and The Hound leave.

mewso

I love the certainty here that Lady you know who will make an appearance. To me is very obvious they are considering leaving her out completely or they would not have missed an opportunity here. You can talk about how it works better without her at the season's end but in TV land a good cliff-hanger ending is considered gold. If they were sure she was going to appear at any point I think we would have seen something here. She may well appear but I'm not convinced they have decided on it yet.

Someone else also mentioned Arya possibly warging into Nymeria at some point. This is another thing that is blatant by now. It looks to me like they have no intention of anyone other than Bran showing any warging capabilities.

These are clues to me of decisions that have been made. Many changes have been very good in the show but others have stood out they have been so clumsy/bad. And no doubt those that defend the show by saying, for example, that LS will show up next season will defend it if she doesn't too. I don't really have strong feelings one way or another on changes. I find some bad, some good but I'm not going to attack/defend them over zealously.

I was disappointed with the final episode on may levels but I get that others thought it was fine. Brienne meeting the Hound and Arya to me was ridiculous but in terms of the show made sense to make things happen (Hound dying, something for Brienne to do) never mind the Hound and Arya reaching the Eyrie last week only to have left without any issue.

The skeletons might have been a nice nod to Harryhausen but in terms of the world of Ice and Fire it made zero sense. We have wights/walkers and at no point is there a suggestion there might be skeletons lying in wait under the snow (at the most northerly part of the world no less - must get bored).

I think they chickened out of the Jaime/Tyrion confrontation and had no trust in the viewers about the Tysha background story whatsoever (perhaps well founded) so we lose out on some really powerful stuff from the books because TV viewers. Oh well.

Next season is a big problem now for me. They have 2 more seasons to finish the whole thing if I'm not mistaken so season 5 will go well beyond where we are books wise which is a major dilemma in terms of watching it. On the other hand changes won't stand out of which there will no doubt be plenty.

Daith

mewso wrote: »

Someone else also mentioned Arya possibly warging into Nymeria at some point. This is another thing that is blatant by now. It looks to me like they have no intention of anyone other than Bran showing any warging capabilities

That was me I think (I love the direwolves )

I think you could be right and Bran will remain the only warg really. At the same time I could easily see it be a shock to the audience when Arya gets blinded and it "awakes" her warg ability.

I might be disappointed, I might not. I'm looking forward because even as a book reader I've no idea what they'll do.

mewso wrote: »

The skeletons might have been a nice nod to Harryhausen but in terms of the world of Ice and Fire it made zero sense.

Ah here. We have resurrected zombies, people made of Ice, corpses without heads walking about but skeletons make no sense?

Mickeroo

There was strong hints that Rickon wargs/green sees in the show since he was having the same dreams about Ned that Bran was.

I can see them ditching Arya's skills completely alright unless she starts warging into cats in Bravos but would be very surprised if Jon doesn't Warg at some stage as it seems like it would be a pretty essential part of his "death".

Mr.Prodston

username123 wrote: »

How would the Knights of the Vale have known the Hound was a wanted man? Tywin hardly sent Lady Lysa a raven personally. Very little time had passed since Tywin put a bounty on him so word probably hadn't spread.

As for Arya, unless she explicitly said "Let me in", they probably wouldn't invite her in. It was her Aunt she was looking for, her Aunt was dead, so why go in?

What use is putting a bounty on somebody if you don't inform people of said bounty. If the Hound was suspected to be in the general area of the Riverlands then the Eyrie would be somewhere that was informed surely? It would probably be one of the few places that would receive a raven personally being one the 7 kingdoms.

The guards have been employed by Lysa for quite a long time and would surely have heard through heresay if nothing else about the Stark downfall and be aware of the name Arya Stark. Littlefinger is Arya's Uncle by marriage, just because Lysa's dead doesn't really mean much.

Following the logic of the show that's what you'd expect to happen. Look it doesn't really make a difference I guess but still.

Nody

rawn wrote: »

. Oh well. I hope the books will eventually tell us where whores go.

They go everywhere!

Naux

Daith wrote: »

They just wanted enemies that the kids could kill. Otherwise why would people be afraid of walkers?

I meant wights like the one Sam killed. Skeletons just looked ridiculous to me.

If Sam killed one(wight) then the direwolf and Hodor could have handled one or two you'd imagine.

Nerdlingr

Naux wrote: »

I meant wights like the one Sam killed. Skeletons just looked ridiculous to me.

If Sam killed one(wight) then the direwolf and Hodor could have handled one or two you'd imagine.

They dont have dragon glass though.

Witcher

Naux wrote: »

I meant wights like the one Sam killed. Skeletons just looked ridiculous to me.

If Sam killed one(wight) then the direwolf and Hodor could have handled one or two you'd imagine.

It was a White Walker that Sam killed.

Nody

Nerdlingr wrote: »

They dont have dragon glass though.

They could easily have found some on the way / been given some at any of the random meetings or have the children throw them weapons (we're making up things anyway).

Mickeroo

Nerdlingr wrote: »

They dont have dragon glass though.

Don't need dragon glass for wights.

Witcher

Nody wrote: »

They could easily have found some on the way / been given some at any of the random meetings or have the children throw them weapons (we're making up things anyway).

Sam gave them each a piece before they parted ways.

Mr Freeze

They should have just used wights, as we have seen in the show already for that scene instead of the skeletons...

People at work (who don't read the books) are asking what the skeletons were, I just said, Wights, same as anything else you have seen, despite the fact that they seemed to be super fast exploding sprinting out of the ground skeleton warriors straight out of Skyrim...

Daith

Mr Freeze wrote: »

They should have just used wights, as we have seen in the show already for that scene instead of the skeletons...

People at work (who don't read the books) are asking what the skeletons were, I just said, Wights, same as anything else you have seen, despite the fact that they seemed to be super fast exploding sprinting out of the ground skeleton warriors straight out of Skyrim...

Bran's going to turn into a tree people. Skeletons are the least of your worries.

mewso

Daith wrote: »

Ah here. We have resurrected zombies, people made of Ice, corpses without heads walking about but skeletons make no sense?

That is not what I mean. We have a world where we have been shown certain things. Now we have been shown skeletons under the snow in a remote northern part of the world. Should we expect them elsewhere? Restricted to that part of the world? Under Kings Landing? It looked to me exactly as it was likely conceived. As something cool to throw in.

Mr Freeze

Daith wrote: »

Bran's going to turn into a tree people. Skeletons are the least of your worries.

I'd keep the skeletons and swap out the magic grenade throwing person! :pac:

I think the whole turning into a tree thing is going to be seriously downplayed in the show if Bloodravens appearance is anything to go by!

He just looked like an old guy in a throne made from roots! Not a dried ancient corpse with roots growing into him and coming out of him, including his eye!

razorblunt

Reintroducing the Freys would work if they start dissappearing one by one.

I also felt the skeletons were weak, I don't care if they were a nod or not. Fair enough you can't show kids beating White Walkers without Coldhands but why not make it an ice lake or something. Would have saved the poor fire grenades too.

Daith

mewso wrote: »

That is not what I mean. We have a world where we have been shown certain things. Now we have been shown skeletons under the snow in a remote northern part of the world. Should we expect them elsewhere? Restricted to that part of the world? Under Kings Landing? It looked to me exactly as it was likely conceived. As something cool to throw in.

Why are you not saying the same thing about Giants and mammoths or the children then?

Mickeroo

Daith wrote: »

Why are you not saying the same thing about Giants and mammoths or the children then?

Because they have been long established in the show and are consistent with everything we know about the lore.

The only way the skeletons make any sense is they are just really really old decomposed wights, but even then that's pretty tenuous (plus their eyes weren't glowing blue).

I enjoyed the scene and wasn't really bothered by it but I get where people are coming from.

mewso

Daith wrote: »

Why are you not saying the same thing about Giants and mammoths or the children then?

I don't expect Giants to come out of nowhere. They have a background. They are mentioned more than once and shown more than once. Not thrown in to make the show cooler. If we see skeletons coming out of the ground several more times then fair enough but I suspect you just want me to cry about what is in the books and what is not. That is not my point. they can change the books all they want. Some of it might piss me off but at least make it less clumsily and less about shoehorning something cool in for the sake of it.

Daith

Mickeroo wrote: »

Because they have been long established in the show and are consistent with everything we know about the lore.

So because someone hasn't mentioned skeletons in the show before then it's impossible? Isn't the whole point of Bran's journey is that he's going further North than most people alive or dead?

mewso

Daith wrote: »

So because someone hasn't mentioned skeletons in the show before then it's impossible? Isn't the whole point of Bran's journey is that he's going further North than most people alive or dead?

Nobody has mentioned shape-shifting giant worms that spit acid. Hopefully next season.

Mr Freeze

I loved the bit in Mance's tent, drinking to Ygritte and Grenn and Mag!

Thought that was great!

Nerdlingr

Mickeroo wrote: »

Don't need dragon glass for wights.

Sorry, the poster mentioned "like the one sam killed". Which was a white walker. Hence the dragon glass reference.

Daith

mewso wrote: »

Nobody has mentioned shape-shifting giant worms that spit acid. Hopefully next season.

Only if it's cool though.

Nerdlingr

Why did they all drink to ygritte though? It wasnt like she was any major player or head of a clan. She was a lookout, a foot soldier... I think they over stated her importance to be honest.

Mickeroo

Daith wrote: »

So because someone hasn't mentioned skeletons in the show before then it's impossible? Isn't the whole point of Bran's journey is that he's going further North than most people alive or dead?

Nobody said impossible, it was just unexpected and seemed a bit out of place. Only bad fantasy has no internal consistency when it comes to these kinds of things. Anyway as I said, the scene didn't really bother me.

Beniof and Weiss acually refer to the skeletons as "wights" in this interview so I guess they are just more decomposed than usual wights like I said, makes sense since they're so far north, it was the agility that seemed odd to me.

Nody

Daith wrote: »

Only if it's cool though.

As long as they look like Sandworms from Dune I'm all for it; we can have them eat up part of Danysis army as she's walking around a random desert and tell everyone to not make any vibrations...

Witcher

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Why did they all drink to ygritte though? It wasnt like she was any major player or head of a clan. She was a lookout, a foot soldier... I think they over stated her importance to be honest.

She meant something to Jon and she was a Wildling.

Same with the other two: Grenn-Jon, Mag-Mance, it's just highlighting that they have both suffered losses in a futile conflict.

Daith

Mickeroo wrote: »

Beniof and Weiss acually refer to the skeletons as "wights" in this interview so I guess they are just more decomposed than usual wights like I said, makes sense since they're so far north, it was the agility that seemed odd to me.

Ok, I think that's an issue if they're refered to as wights but don't look or act anything like previous wights. That's bad consistency I'll grant you.

But then the whole North North, Children of the Forest is really at odds with almost everything else in the books.

Nody wrote: »

As long as they look like Sandworms from Dune I'm all for it; we can have them eat up part of Danysis army as she's walking around a random desert and tell everyone to not make any vibrations...

Better than have her ****ting herself. Or have we gone past that part?

Mickeroo

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Why did they all drink to ygritte though? It wasnt like she was any major player or head of a clan. She was a lookout, a foot soldier... I think they over stated her importance to be honest.

I dont think so, Mance knew her, knew she went over the wall and knew Jon was involved with her. Made sense they would drink to her.

Nody wrote: »

As long as they look like Sandworms from Dune I'm all for it; we can have them eat up part of Danysis army as she's walking around a random desert and tell everyone to not make any vibrations...

Will fit nicely into the Dorne scenes I'm sure :pac:

Nerdlingr

Blay wrote: »

She meant something to Jon and she was a Wildling.

Same with the other two: Grenn-Jon, Mag-Mance, it's just highlighting that they have both suffered losses in a futile conflict.

Sure but it was Mance who toasted her. Granted its to magnify jon's suffering but meh..ygritte..whatever like!

Witcher

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Sure but it was Mance who toasted her. Granted its to magnify jon's suffering but meh..ygritte..whatever like!

I don't think Jon was expecting a round of toasts when he arrived but when Mance said her name he did too.

I don't think the other Wildlings would have done it, but Mance has a bit more of a brain I think. They just added it in to make Mance a bit more 'good' in the eyes of the non readers.

Iwasfrozen

intellectual dosser wrote: »

They also missed a trick of Tyrion chastising Tywin just as he was about to die.

"Ah, so it turns out the great Tywin Lannister doesnt **** gold afterall" <<smirk>>

In fairness Tyrion thought this rather than saying it out loud.

Daith

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

In fairness Tyrion thought this rather than saying it out loud.

I think it would be cool if some nameless Kings Landing person makes the same observation in S5 to someone.

Duckworth_Luas

Last nights show has confirmed that Robert Strong = FrankenClegane, not that there was any doubt.

Godge

I didn't like Lady Stoneheart in the books. I thought her appearance was a contrivance and added little if anything to the plot. I had thought that she was being introduced to add to future events. However, Martin is adept at taking us down pointless side-roads that never go anywhere - Quentyn Martell, various Ironborn etc. - and I am sure that the conversation has been had with Martin as to where LS is going in the books. If she doesn't have a huge relevance to future events in the books, she can be dropped by the show without a problem.

The only plot point to date that she is still needed to influence is Brienne's capture of Jaime. Depending on where that is going, there are other ways of dealing with that issue.

It has been difficult enough for the TV series to hold the narrative together without the extra dimension of a zombified Catelyn Stark. Introducing her at this stage could turn off the TV viewers and that would be of most concern to the producers. The quiet dropping of the BWB this season in the TV series would support such a scenario.

This may be an unpopular view but I don't think the TV series has lost anything to date by her non-appearance but we will see.

FunLover18

The trouble with skeletal wights is that the thing that identifies wights as wights is there blue eyes, and skeletons don't have eyes. I wasn't a fan myself, dead people with ice-blue eyes are scarier than a bunch of bones. The effects weren't great either, wights would have been cheaper

TheIrishGrover

Loved that episode.

• Glad they didn't bring back Lady whatshername. Hope she never comes back.
• Loved the Tywin/Tyrion scene. Loved the dialogue between them. Charles Dance is the biggest loss for me. Thought he was AWESOME as Tywin. Hopefully they'll big up Diana Rigg in the next season now that he's gone. Need some gravitas.
• Great to see Ciaran Hinds and Liam Cunningham in a scene together.
• And Liamo looks badass in armour walking through the smoke!
• May be controversial but I'm glad they had Jamie and Tyrion part as they did as opposed to the books.
• Surprised they left some things in: Would have bet any money that they would have had Tyrion find Shae dead and THAT would have been the straw. In the book I always assumed she was into Tyrion for the money but it seemed in the series she had genuine love for him. Last time I trust a whore. Pffffft. Was also surprised they left the Hound as was. Thought they'd have had Arya end him. (But then I don't totally believe he's dead in the books either despite what was said later)
• Surprised how much into the next books they went with Bran's story. Gonna have little enough to do with him next season(s) but I suppose there's so much to do with Tyrion, Stannis, Cercie and all the new characters that some characters are bound to get short-changed.
• Great to see Stannis' LoTR troop movements but looked like they were just charging 5 people.

Looking forward to next season but please please PLEASE no Penny and no Ironborn boll0x though.

Witcher

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Tywin. Hopefully they'll big up Diana Rigg in the next season now that he's gone. Need some gravitas.

She's gone back to Highgarden.

TheIrishGrover

Blay wrote: »

She's gone back to Highgarden.

Ah I know but if they've any sense they'll bring her back and have her behind the scenes stirring - being the one involved with Cercie's storyline. Would be a shame to not use such a popular character. Wouldn't take too much tweaking of the storyline and it would make Cercie's storyline more believable (I was never 100% convinced of her storyline in the last book. But then again, I suppose 75% of the last two books were filler to give the dragons time to grow IMHO)

December2012

I wonder will Kevan feature? I haven't heard any casting news and he did nothing in his s1 appearance

I was really disappointed, the entire Arya going to the Eyrie and then meeting Brienne is really, really dumb. And I really expected the Tyrion scenes to be way better than that, had none of the gravitas of the conversations between him and Shae and Tywin, such a waste after seeing how fantastic Dinklage was in the trial scene.

Whole episode felt rushed and sloppy.

lynski

I was on my feet when stannis arrived at the wildlings camp, just as shocking and lightening fast as i thought it was in the books, and the main actors killed it.

I got a shock when the hand came out of the snow and still jumped, even though i was half expecting it.The wights and re-animated beings make no sense at all so far, we have bodies coming back to life within a few hrs, within a few days, and now after xxx time. Is it that the growing strength of the WW is making the anything dead come back regardless of duration of death?As most of the people north of the wall burn their dead to prevent re-animation anyway there cant be too many bodies lying around, so perhaps there are not too many skeletons or bodies to come back in bad shape?

I think the NW situation with Jon and Sam is set up nicely, you can see the threads, and Mance is awesome looking so forward to seeing him and Stannis on screen together.

The Hound and Arya at the eyrie made sense to me, Lysa was nuts and paranoid, if she got a raven from lannisters, who she blames for killing her husband, she would not tell anyone about it, she would probably not hand over the hound even if she caught him and someone that 'flying' happy would have soldiers who do as they are told.

Delighted with the Brianne and Hound fight, total nod to fandom imho, dont like how it changes the story, dont like that we 'know' about zombie clegane.

Delighted Arya found a boat straight away as westeros is no place for a lone traveller.

I think they needed to show one of the children a few weeks ago they seem to have appeared out of nowhere now.

The tyrion/tywin scene was deadly, i get they way they played out the tyrion story. makes sense on screen, he had plenty if reason to go to his old chamber, he was well versed in sneaking around in the tunnels, not sure about in the show as i dont remember them using the tunnels in the show. His life is over, he wants closure, doesnt matter if he goes or not.

Disappointed no LS but needed the BWB back on show before she comes, also needed warging arya.
looking forward to next year.

Lone Stone

Just finished it there, that was a lot going on. It was rather disappointing that no cold hands made an appearance. But over all a good episode, been a while since i read the books i dont think the hound was killed by Brienne i in the book was he ? i cant remember, anyway that whole scene just felt like it was put in there for some girl power jobber jabber. but it was definitely one hell of a fight scene.

I didnt like the way the whole scene tywin and tyrion went, it seemed more rage fuelled in the book it was oddly calm anyway it was great all around i thought. Just making me want the next book more