GoT Illiterate Season 4 finale *HAVE NOT READ THE BOOKS*

iamanengine

My thoughts on most things unexplained in GoT is simply that they just have yet to be explained and it tends to work out most times, the action was fairly fast paced this episode, probably didn't have time for them to go Oh, btw this is why this happened. If the old guy is gunna tutor Bran next season I imagine we're gonna find out a lot more about the magic/warg side of things and it's inner workings, or so I'm hoping. To my knowledge all we know is that magic exists, hopefully they elaborate on it more next season! Basically I just want more of the Fantasy stuff and thus will accept any magic related hijnks they throw at us haha

Dan_Solo

Lemlin wrote: »

Because reading your comments every week grows tiring. Most of them can be rebutted quite easily (e.g. why didn't Oberyn just murder Tywin). Look at my post above, I'd hardly call it "so much effort" to string together a few lines.

And do you have a notepad with "100 reasons I'll make up for why things happened in GoT that I have no evidence for"?
But you still had to dream up reasons that have no basis in what was shown to us on the screen. The fact remains that for all your whining about "nitpicking" you yourself have absolutely no idea who the skeletons were, why they were there, who put them there or anything else about them really. That's OK for "check out the elf fireballing the zombies! Awesome dude!" watchers, but isn't really enough for me.

Dan_Solo

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Why didn't the Child of the Forest do something about the battle sooner, or just not have a whole load of spectral skeletons in shallow graves outside the front door in general (you're disturbing my corpse garden, yo!).

This bit is pretty important. Apparently 3 eye guy knew Bran and entourage were coming for years. Yet he still let that kid get stabbed by zombies on his front porch. Zombies he can obliterate with a snap of his fingers.
Pretty sh1tty of him, no?

Taylor365

To test are they truly worthy no doubt.

If you cant handle a few measly bones, how can you handle an empire.

When he saw Bran was going to be toast, the young girl was activated.

loyatemu

some bearded dude explains why Stannis suddenly appeared at the wall (considering at the end of S3 Stannis, after receiving the raven, more or less drew his sword and cried "To the wall!" - it took him bloody long enough to get there, how long does a loan application take?):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c-ZxuWhhCw

Anyway, in summary, Stannis is the man!

Dan_Solo

Taylor365 wrote: »

To test are they truly worthy no doubt.

If you cant handle a few measly bones, how can you handle an empire.

When he saw Bran was going to be toast, the young girl was activated.

Then Bran wasn't worthy as he needed saving... :P

seamus

Dan_Solo wrote: »

This bit is pretty important. Apparently 3 eye guy knew Bran and entourage were coming for years. Yet he still let that kid get stabbed by zombies on his front porch. Zombies he can obliterate with a snap of his fingers.
Pretty sh1tty of him, no?

Storylines involving people with precognitive abilities typically have lots of people dying when those with the abilities could have prevented it.
Typically this is ignored by acknowledging that one cannot know the future if one changes it. It was basically explained in terms that Jojen knew he was going to die but came anyway - i.e. his fate is set and cannot be changed.
So they could not simultaneously know Bran & co were coming but also save them.

iamanengine

Taylor365 wrote: »

To test are they truly worthy no doubt.

If you cant handle a few measly bones, how can you handle an empire.

When he saw Bran was going to be toast, the young girl was activated.

Surely if that's the case he failed and yer man would have been like gtfo?

Lemlin

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And do you have a notepad with "100 reasons I'll make up for why things happened in GoT that I have no evidence for"?
But you still had to dream up reasons that have no basis in what was shown to us on the screen. The fact remains that for all your whining about "nitpicking" you yourself have absolutely no idea who the skeletons were, why they were there, who put them there or anything else about them really. That's OK for "check out the elf fireballing the zombies! Awesome dude!" watchers, but isn't really enough for me.

But why do I need to know who they are!? That's what you are missing. We don't need every little thing that appears in every episode explained to us. This isn't Home & Away. And, as I said, that's why you have so much discussion here. You are still struggling to comprehend my most basic point: the mystery is what makes it a great show.

I don't know why the skeletons were there but I can speculate as to the reasoning behind what we see on screen. As pointed out above by a separate poster, most things are explained in the show at a later date. Often we are pointed one way and then the plot will actually go another e.g. we were initially pointed towards Cersei poisioning Jon Arryn but it was actually Lysa and Littlefinger who did it.

To be honest, you present yourself as someone capable of independent thought about the episodes but you haven't displayed that in the past e.g. asking why Oberyn didn't just kill Tywin in Kings Landing. It requires fairly basic thought to realise that if he did that he wouldn't have lasted too long.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

This bit is pretty important. Apparently 3 eye guy knew Bran and entourage were coming for years. Yet he still let that kid get stabbed by zombies on his front porch. Zombies he can obliterate with a snap of his fingers.
Pretty sh1tty of him, no?

Yes, pretty ****ty but perhaps he had his reasons for same which will be explained in later episodes. Perhaps the 3 eyed crow knows Jojen has now fulfilled his destiny of getting Bran to the tree and is no longer needed. Harsh but who's to say what his opinion is, we only saw a couple of minutes of him on-screen.

How many of your notepad of points on last night's episode have we responded to at this stage? How about you engage some independent thought yourself and have a think about these things?

sebastianlieken

To all the posters unimpressed by the opposition put up by the 100,000 stong wildlings agains stannis' unspecified number

The series has made it very clear that while the wildlings are good individual fighters, their arms/armor are crap and their coordination/cohesion is terrible. Then consider that all of Stannis' men are well disciplined, organised, heavily armored mounted cavalry with forged weaponry; This is how Rome consistently defeated much larger Barbarian armies. Heavy cavalry could just ride into an area of Wildlings, slaughter them while they're all over the place, and then move on to another unorganised group when they're meeting too much resistance from one area.

The wildlings camp was scattered, there were no defensive implacements, and they were taken by surprise, add to this that it was a decapitation raid -hit the command center, and the army falls apart. (exactly what Jon Snow was planning on doing).

Additionally, 100,000 wildlings doesn't neccessarily mean 100,000 men at arms. Men, women, and Children make up these numbers, whereas each and every one of Stannis' men were heavy cavalry.

Dan_Solo

Lemlin wrote: »

How many of your notepad of points on last night's episode have we responded to at this stage?

Responded and answered are very different things.
As for Oberyn right from when he turned up in KL I said it made no sense for either him or Tywin... turns out I lucked out and was on the money. LOL.

seligehgit

wprathead wrote: »

Yes we are gonna have Varys, Tyrion, Jorah, Ayra all chilling around Essos - looking forward to seeing more of this land. Not to mention Dario, Ser Barrister and Daenarys

Hopefully the Dothraki make a return - they were savage

I can see Mercella having a part to play - Cercessi mentioned her daughter alot this season which would make me think alot of next season be set in Dorne. Plus have to see how the Martells feel about Oberyn being killed

It is a pity Jon Snow has made vow to the Night Watch as he is kind of stuck there now at the wall

Yeah it definitely seems to be implied that Mercella is going to play a significant role next season.

Dan_Solo

sebastianlieken wrote: »

To all the posters unimpressed by the opposition put up by the 100,000 stong wildlings agains stannis' unspecified number

All those things make sense, but now we have to consider that there were only a few thousand auld eejits flinging themselves at the wall like mad yokes in episode 9, which now isn't all that epic at all.

Lemlin

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Responded and answered are very different things.
As for Oberyn right from when he turned up in KL I said it made no sense for either him or Tywin... turns out I lucked out and was on the money. LOL.

If you want to know what happens in future episodes, why not just go and ask on the reader's thread or read the books?

quad_red

Dan_Solo wrote: »

All those things make sense, but now we have to consider that there were only a few thousand auld eejits flinging themselves at the wall like mad yokes in episode 9, which now isn't all that epic at all.

A few thousand wildlings with giants and mammoths and wargs against 100 men of the Nights watch.

That still sounds epic to me....

Dan_Solo

Lemlin wrote: »

If you want to know what happens in future episodes, why not just go and ask on the reader's thread or read the books?

If you want to make up things I supposedly asked for why don't you enter a short story competition?

Lemlin

Dan_Solo wrote: »

If you want to make up things I supposedly asked for why don't you enter a short story competition?

I'm being quite serious. You want the answers to questions that only book readers can know. Anyone here can only speculate. You know yourself we were not told in the episode why the skeletons were there or what purpose they served. That doesn't mean we won't be told next season. The episode was quite stretched so I'm sure they didn't want to get bogged down explaining it all when there was so much to get through.

So if you want a definitive reason and aren't willing to wait for it in the show, why not just get it by asking the book readers or reading the books?

Dan_Solo

quad_red wrote: »

A few thousand wildlings with giants and mammoths and wargs against 100 men of the Nights watch.

That still sounds epic to me....

It now turns out though that there wasn't really all that much else for Mance to throw at the wall. The giants and mammoth were his only real shot at it, until his 400 guys get around the wall anyway. This came up earlier, but he should've sent 400 lads over the wall in the first place.
That forest burning down and reappearing still has me bamboozled too...

Dan_Solo

Lemlin wrote: »

I'm being quite serious. You want the answers to questions that only book readers can know. Anyone here can only speculate. You know yourself we were not told in the episode why the skeletons were there or what purpose they served. That doesn't mean we won't be told next season. The episode was quite stretched so I'm sure they didn't want to get bogged down explaining it all when there was so much to get through.

So if you want a definitive reason and aren't willing to wait for it in the show, why not just get it by asking the book readers or reading the books?

So then why don't you have a go at people who are putting forward theories (quite entertaining ones at that) why the skeletons should indeed be there?
How unbiased of you...

cletus van damme

Hodor eye gouged a skeleton. 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Kinda cheered me up..

😂

Mr. CooL ICE

Dan_Solo wrote: »

That forest burning down and reappearing still has me bamboozled too...

The fire was lit in the background. There is still a massive unburnt forest between it and the wall.

arch_stanton

Dan_Solo wrote: »

All those things make sense, but now we have to consider that there were only a few thousand auld eejits flinging themselves at the wall like mad yokes in episode 9, which now isn't all that epic at all.

I'm sure that in Game of Infinite Budgets they would have built a practical wall of ice, costumed, armed and choreographed 100,000 specially imported wildlings but in the real world of tv budgets (even as huge a budget as GoT must have), there is only so much you can do. A little imagination and suspension of disbelief is still required of the viewer.

Lemlin

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It now turns out though that there wasn't really all that much else for Mance to throw at the wall. The giants and mammoth were his only real shot at it, until his 400 guys get around the wall anyway. This came up earlier, but he should've sent 400 lads over the wall in the first place.
That forest burning down and reappearing still has me bamboozled too...

Maybe they just burned down a few trees at the front of the forest? How do you know they burned down the whole forest?

nibtrix

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It now turns out though that there wasn't really all that much else for Mance to throw at the wall. The giants and mammoth were his only real shot at it, until his 400 guys get around the wall anyway. This came up earlier, but he should've sent 400 lads over the wall in the first place.
That forest burning down and reappearing still has me bamboozled too...

It's not the whole forest, just a section of it. You can still see some trees left!


Edit: Beaten to it, same picture and everything!

Lemlin

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So then why don't you have a go at people who are putting forward theories (quite entertaining ones at that) why the skeletons should indeed be there?
How unbiased of you...

Why would I have a go at people putting forward their theories? They could be right for all I know. I don't know why the skeletons are there. I can only speculate myself. It'd be a bit harsh to have a go at someone when I don't know the answer myself.

What I will have a go at is someone complaining because every miniscule plot point is not explained the moment it occurs. The mystery is part of what I enjoy about the show.

It's why I come here to read people's theories and present my own.

Dan_Solo

Lemlin wrote: »

Maybe they just burned down a few trees at the front of the forest? How do you know they burned down the whole forest?

The wildling insurgents could see the flames from the other side of the wall. Must have been pretty big... some trees don't burn as well as others I guess from that photo. I'll have a look at the aeriel shots of Stannis' invasion and see can we still make out the acres of burned down trees.

DeVore

In terms of the horsemen... a knight was considered basically like artillery today. A knight on a horse was an Abrams tank.

Asking why 100,000 men would surrender to 10,000 horsed knights is like asking why 100k infantry would be wiped out by 10,000 tanks.



The skeletons... they have nothing to do with the Children. The little girl talks about how the power that animates them has no power inside the tree. Clearly there is a malevolent "power" that doesn't want Bran to get inside the tree and it animated the skeletons as a means of attack. Its clearly not the first time its done so either (judging from the bones). I'm not sure whats confusing about that bit...


Finally, there is a thing called poetic/dramatic license... a writer is allowed to time things and arrange things for the good of the drama, rather than for realisms sake. If you watch Monty Pythons Life of Brian and The Holy Grail both films deliberately break this license for comic effect... looking at things from a genuine/realistic point of view rather than the romanticised view of things normally portrayed.
Good drama needs the viewer to "go with it" for the sake of a good tale.

That said, a writer builds his world and asks the viewer/reader for their license, offering the promise of the integrity of the world in return.

Someone mentioned above how wrong it would feel if Jack Bauer started tossing fireballs... that's a great example of my last point. The writer is pitching a drama set in a realistic world. We agree to buy into that world of spies and subterfuge on the grounds that the writer doesn't "push his luck" so to speak

Its one of the reasons people got pissed off with Lost, and to a lesser extend, Battlestar. Both seemed incapable of wrapping up their stories within the world they built and instead slacked off by blaming it all on God
That feels like a betrayal because in fact it IS a betrayal. The writers promise a consistent world while the reader/viewer agrees to overlook the odd bit for dramatic-license. They broke their promise.


The kid with the fireballs feels a bit like that because up until now no one has been throwing around that kind of power but very quickly we are lead to understand that these are not humans. They are very old and very powerful and then that becomes ok again. This is a world with dragons in it after all, so its reasonably consistent.

If on the other hand, Tyrion returns with an AK 47... we'd all complain, even though the world has explosives and standard physics, so its actually quite within the physical laws to moot guns!

The agreement between writer/viewer is a tentative thing rather than a hard set of rules is my point

Gregk961

Never understood people who try to find plot-holes in everything they watch (or read). Do minor details really matter that much or is it just a need to feel clever? Surely you are going to have some things unexplained its an entertainment tv show not a perfect equation.

I honestly couldnt enjoy anything if i was worrying about every plot point, but each to there own i suppose!

calex71

Lemin and Dan wind the necks in a bit , it's growing tiresome for people to read through this with your constant back and forth and nitpicking at each other. Just agree to disagree and move on please

nibtrix

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The wildling insurgents could see the flames from the other side of the wall. Must have been pretty big... some trees don't burn as well as others I guess from that photo. I'll have a look at the aeriel shots of Stannis' invasion and see can we still make out the acres of burned down trees.

They had a warg with an owl on top of the wall that saw the flames, no?

Dan_Solo

DeVore wrote: »

Clearly there is a malevolent "power" that doesn't want Bran to get inside the tree and it animated the skeletons as a means of attack. Its clearly not the first time its done so either (judging from the bones). I'm not sure whats confusing about that bit...

What's clear about this? It's a theory based on nothing. You even had to put "power" in inverted commas as you have no idea what this is.
Sure, maybe it's true, but there's no info either way on it at this point.

Dan_Solo

nibtrix wrote: »

They had a warg with an owl on top of the wall that saw the flames, no?

The guys at the bottom saw the glow at the top of the wall before they attacked Castle Black IIRC.

gazzamc

nibtrix wrote: »

They had a warg with an owl on top of the wall that saw the flames, no?

Yes..

Lemlin

gazzamc wrote: »

Yes..

That's my memory of it also. The warg was up near Jon at the top of the wall as Jon and Thorne spoke.

Mr. CooL ICE

Dan_Solo wrote: »

What's clear about this? It's a theory based on nothing. You even had to put "power" in inverted commas as you have no idea what this is.
Sure, maybe it's true, but there's no info either way on it at this point.

*facedesk*

If the writers went to the effort of explaining every minute detail such as this, every episode would be so incredibly long, drawn out and boring that nobody would watch it.

Stop nitpicking about these details. Use your bloody imagination to fill in the gaps like the rest of us.

EyeSight

Good finale.
I hated the Bran stuff. It was all a bit too "Narnia" for me.

I'm really going to miss the Hound. I'm surprised Arya left him like that. I know she wanted to kill him but they had a bond and he lost his life protecting her(even after he found there was no reward). Is she still going North or to Bravos?

I assume the Northern people will want Stannis as their king now, seeing as he saved them. Maybe Stannis Vs Bolton next season?

I hope the Tyrells stick around - for obvious reasons

Dan_Solo

LordChessington wrote: »

*facedesk*

If the writers went to the effort of explaining every minute detail such as this, every episode would be so incredibly long, drawn out and boring that nobody would watch it.

Stop nitpicking about these details. Use your bloody imagination to fill in the gaps like the rest of us.

Which would be the opposite of it being "clearly" anything...;)

gazzamc

Lemlin wrote: »

That's my memory of it also. The warg was up near Jon at the top of the wall as Jon and Thorne spoke.

yep some screens:

calex71

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Which would be the opposite of it being "clearly" anything...;)

Dan you are at it again, keep it up and you will be taking an end of season holiday, I've given you enough of a chance at this stage, cut it out.

Awkward Badger

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The guys at the bottom saw the glow at the top of the wall before they attacked Castle Black IIRC.

After the warg said "Its time" they all stood and turned to see the glow from behind the wall.

challengemaster

Cianos wrote: »

Tyrion wasn't someone who would just kill for the sake of it. He killed Shae partly out of self defense but also because seeing her in his father's bed pushed him over the edge. But all of that was unbeknownst to him when he decided to turn back from the stairway.

Read this wiki, in the notes section, but only specifically about this episode. It doesn't spoil anything, but it does explain fully the reasons for Tyrion doing what he did.

Dan_Solo

Pugsly wrote: »

After the warg said "Its time" they all stood and turned to see the glow from behind the wall.

Which was what I originally said. The fire was big enough to see from South of the wall.

Rasheed

Are the dragons locked up for good now?

Awkward Badger

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Which was what I originally said. The fire was big enough to see from South of the wall.

Well you said they saw the flames from the other side of the wall. But lets just agree they were aware of the fire from the other side of the wall and conclude it was the biggest fire the north had ever seen.

Al Capwned

Rasheed wrote: »

Are the dragons locked up for good now?

If anyone was to answer this they will have their head ripped off and stuck on a spike and lifeless body dragged through the seven kingdoms and fed to said dragons.

:pac:

Dan_Solo

Rasheed wrote: »

Are the dragons locked up for good now?

There's one I don't think anyone can answer at this stage.

Timmyctc

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Which was what I originally said. The fire was big enough to see from South of the wall.

The glow they see is probably the knights watch lighting the torches along the top of the wall. There's a scene before the warg scene where it shows the wall lighting up in preparation for the attack.

Awkward Badger

Rasheed wrote: »

Are the dragons locked up for good now?

Hard to know really. On the one hand she cant control them and they are only going to get bigger and do more damage. On the other she cant keep two dragons chained up, eventually she wont be able to go near them and when they are fully grown they wont be held by those chains.

She may make an attempt to train them in some way in future.

Mickeroo

Timmyctc wrote: »

The glow they see is probably the knights watch lighting the torches along the top of the wall. There's a scene before the warg scene where it shows the wall lighting up in preparation for the attack.

I think the glow was mainly supposed to be from the fire, the glow from a fire that size would easily have been visible from where they were even with the wall there.

Dan_Solo

challengemaster wrote: »

Read this wiki, in the notes section, but only specifically about this episode. It doesn't spoil anything, but it does explain fully the reasons for Tyrion doing what he did.

We know what he found, but what was he expecting to find?