Dogs killed sheep. Trying to find owners of dogs.

Jamboat

This is a bit complicated.

My neighbour found two dogs running loose in the countryside when he was walking his own dogs. He brought them home with him and had them checked for microchips which they didn't have. He held on to them for a few days while he tried to locate the owner however they started to fight with his own dogs so he asked me if I knew anyone who could hold on to them for a couple of days while he tried to figure out what to do with them.
I have a friend who lives in the country and he used to have dogs and has an enclosed run. He agreed to keep the dogs for a couple of days. The day after taking them my friend arrived home from work to find the dogs gone. The run was sill closed up so they must have gotten out over the wall, which is 7 ft high. He rang me and we went out straight away looking for the dogs. About 30 minutes later we met a farmer who said that 3 of his sheep had been killed by 2 dogs and the dogs were hiding in a wooded area at the bottom of his field. I went down to try and lure the dogs out. The farmer and a few others (family or neighbours I presume) also were trying to lure the dogs out.
Eventually we got them out and I explained to the farmer that I didn't actually own the dogs nor did my friend but that we were just trying to help out the dogs because they had been found running loose a few days previously. My neighbour who had initially found the dogs then arrived on the scene ( I had rang him while I was trying to lure the dogs out) and was putting the blame on my friend who was holding onto the dogs as they were last in her possession.
The farmer asked for the dogs to be destroyed and my neighbour who had found them said that he would have them put to sleep the following day (this was evening time).
The next day the guards and dog warden arrived at my house looking for the dogs. I was gone away for a few days so my husband had to deal with them. He explained the story and that they weren't our dogs nor my friends dogs, that he had been doing us a favour. He told them my neighbour had the dogs so they called there and took the dogs from him with the intention of destroying them if they couldn't locate the owners. The guards then told my husband that the farmer is looking for compensation and that there were 8 dead sheep and not 3 as originally thought. They also said that my friend who was minding the dogs would be liable because he was the last one in possession of the dogs before they killed the sheep.

I feel very bad about this because he was only doing me a favour and also the farmer is his neighbour and it's awkward for him. My husband called to the farmers house to determine the financial damage and the farmer is looking for €1300. Of this, €200 is vet and disposal fees and €1100 for the sheep.

It's amicable at the moment because we all agree that what happened to the farmer and the sheep is awful but I don't have €1300 to give the farmer and I don't know how far he's prepared to go with it or if he'll take it to court. My neighbour who initially found the dogs is having nothing to do with it now and leaving it to us.

It's turned into such a mess and all for trying to do someone a good turn. The poor dead sheep, two dead dogs and possible fallout between neighbours and a €1300 bill

Who is liable here? I feel the farmer will pursue it because his sheep have been killed before (by different dogs) so he's probably sick of it which is fair enough.

TheChizler

Did the farmer actually see the dogs kill the sheep? It's just a bit strange that on second thoughts it went from 3 to 8 sheep.

I wouldn't be putting up any money if I was in your position, it sounds like you didn't have the dogs in your posession at all. The neighbour who found the dogs in the first place who is letting you deal with it should sort out tracking down the owner with your friend.

VonVix

This is a really tough situation. You may be better off having this posted in the Legal Discussion section (not sure though!). My first thought is is there evidence that there was indeed 8 sheep killed? First I would try and get all the paper work possible from vets, etc. with regards proof that that sum of 1300 is accurate.

Jamboat

Apparently the farmers wife saw the dogs but I don't know if she saw them chasing or killing the sheep. She ran into the field to chase the dogs away from the sheep. When we eventually lured the dogs out one of them had blood around his mouth. There were no pictures taken of the dogs during the fiasco.
I agree that it's starnge the number increased. They took pictures and my husband saw the pictures when he went to the farmers house but he said the sheep were so badly damaged that it was difficult to see how many exactly. Poor sheep
I actually think that my neighbour who initially found the dogs should be taking the responsibilty because in the course of things both myself and my friend were only helping out. But that neighbour is not having anything to do with it and he told the farmer and the guards that my friend had them and they got out of his property. I just can't let my friend take sole liabilty for it because we're friends a long time and he was doing me a favour taking the dogs for a couple of nights. We're good friends and he wouldn't say no to me.
It's just so messy.

VonVix

Jamboat wrote: »

Apparently the farmers wife saw the dogs but I don't know if she saw them chasing or killing the sheep. She ran into the field to chase the dogs away from the sheep. When we eventually lured the dogs out one of them had blood around his mouth. There were no pictures taken of the dogs during the fiasco.
I agree that it's starnge the number increased. They took pictures and my husband saw the pictures when he went to the farmers house but he said the sheep were so badly damaged that it was difficult to see how many exactly. Poor sheep
I actually think that my neighbour who initially found the dogs should be taking the responsibilty because in the course of things both myself and my friend were only helping out. But that neighbour is not having anything to do with it and he told the farmer and the guards that my friend had them and they got out of his property. I just can't let my friend take sole liabilty for it because we're friends a long time and he was doing me a favour taking the dogs for a couple of nights. We're good friends and he wouldn't say no to me.
It's just so messy.

Unfortunately I would view it the responsibility of the person who last had the dogs and intended to keep them secure on their property. That said, you could always split it. It is indeed a messy situation. But I wouldn't go giving money to anyone until you have paperwork from someone not involved with regards the sum of money mentioned to you.

happywithlife

Would the farmer not be able to claim the lost value of the sheep from his insurance?
I haven't a clue really bout sheep farming but it wouldn't surprise me if an extra few died later due to stress - I think ewes are particularly vulnerable after lambing? Then again farmer could be chancing their arm. But I presume he'd have to have records re tagging the sheep etc and so prove how/why/when they died etc so I'd politely ask for formal verification before handing over any money (if you decide to so so)
Crappy situation to be in and either way I'd say there will be fallout between some of the people involved. Pity it's over trying to do a good deed :-(
initial neighbour should have been straight onto local pound when they found the dogs first day

Lemlin

happywithlife wrote: »

Would the farmer not be able to claim the lost value of the sheep from his insurance?
I haven't a clue really bout sheep farming but it wouldn't surprise me if an extra few died later due to stress - I think ewes are particularly vulnerable after lambing? Then again farmer could be chancing their arm. But I presume he'd have to have records re tagging the sheep etc and so prove how/why/when they died etc so I'd politely ask for formal verification before handing over any money (if you decide to so so)
Crappy situation to be in and either way I'd say there will be fallout between some of the people involved. Pity it's over trying to do a good deed :-(
initial neighbour should have been straight onto local pound when they found the dogs first day

Why should his insurance be effected by something which wasn't his fault?

Also, if the farmer claims, the first thing the insurer are going to do is investigate recovery of any monies they pay from the liable party.

The only thing the three of you can involved with the dogs can do is sit down and work it out between the three of you. The innocent farmer certainly shouldn't be troubled. He's probably out alot more of his own time and energy that the compensation he'll be getting.

Snakeweasel

happywithlife wrote: »

Would the farmer not be able to claim the lost value of the sheep from his insurance?
I haven't a clue really bout sheep farming but it wouldn't surprise me if an extra few died later due to stress - I think ewes are particularly vulnerable after lambing? Then again farmer could be chancing their arm. But I presume he'd have to have records re tagging the sheep etc and so prove how/why/when they died etc so I'd politely ask for formal verification before handing over any money (if you decide to so so)
Crappy situation to be in and either way I'd say there will be fallout between some of the people involved. Pity it's over trying to do a good deed :-(
initial neighbour should have been straight onto local pound when they found the dogs first day

Why should the farmer have to claim off his insurance when it wasn't his fault and knows the dogs did it? The other sheep could easily have been attacked in a different field that the farmer hadn't seen by the time he was talking to the OP, but yeah it should be easy enough for the farmer to prove they were legit deaths that time if he keeps any reasonable amount of records, there's a surprising amount of paperwork involved with sheep farming!

wexie

VonVix wrote: »

Unfortunately I would view it the responsibility of the person who last had the dogs and intended to keep them secure on their property.

This is how I would see it, it's a bad situation but the person looking after the dogs (and taking responsibility for them) would be held responsible. Same as if your friend decided to take them out for a walk and let them off the lead and they killed the sheep then. It's unfortunate they managed to get out of such a big run but that's probably how they were found in the first place.

Having said all of that I'd perhaps contact the local vets and see if they know who owns the dogs?

Like you said you really shouldn't be out of pocket for trying to do the right thing.

Jamboat

I'm going to contact the farmer and ask him for paperwork from the vet etc to prove how many dead sheep there were. Apparently it was 5 lambs and 3 ewes. 2 out of the 5 lambs had to be put down by the vet so all of that would also be on record I presume.

sillysmiles

Have you and the person who last held the dogs actually sat down with the farmer and talked to him?

willfarmerman

The problem with an attack from dogs is that it doesn't stop with the dead ones. You are left with maimed sheep that are shocked. if in lamb abort the lambs. It would break your heart. The insurance isn't on most policies and it has to be specified. And is very expensive. The farmer may have lost 3 sheep at first and lose 3 times that afterwards between ones that die and have to be put down afterwards. If the man can prove he didn't own the dogs he won't be held accountable. You can't blame the farmer. because these dogs never have an owner. He'd can't know if he is being told the truth.

Edit .. On reading back through post I see your friend had taken care and possession of the dogs so in my view he / she is responsible.

looksee

So the moral of this story is, if you see animals roaming, do absolutely nothing about it...oh right, that is what happens - usually.

Its a great pity you got caught up in this op, trying to do what was right, at the same time there is no reason the farmer should be out of pocket either. The animals should have been taken straight to the pound though, and really it is the other neighbour who chose to get involved in the first place.

MayoAreMagic

Have you given any thought to investing some time in finding the actual owners of the dogs? What breed are they? Are they sheepdogs? Ask vets, maybe the farmer can ask other farmers if they recognise the dogs. Maybe consider putting a picture up on donedeal saying you found them. Someone had to have owned them and ultimately they are the people to blame...

mitresize5

this just goes to prove that no good deed goes unpunished I'm afraid

The farmer has lost a lot more than the lambs ewes that have been killed or being destroyed. Sheep that are spooked like that never thrive again in most cases and will be most likely sold off for mutton next year if they don't get in lamb.

Get documentation of the farmers loss and pay the man what he is owed, whatever way ye decide to do it between the three of ye

Flippyfloppy

It sounds very unfair, obviously your friend was the last one responsible for them, but how was he to know they could scale a 7ft wall. Also how is the neighbour who gave them to you managing to have 'nothing to do with it' take a leaf out of his book!!!

Jamboat

I spoke to the farmer the evening that it happened. My husband called to the famers house to try and sort it out because I was very upset about the whole mess and if the farmer had been very confrontational I would have just started crying. But I am going to make contact with the farmer to look for the paper work. According to my husband he is reasonable and justs wants to be compensated which I can understand.

The two dogs in question were huskey's. When I spoke to the farmer the evening it happened he said he had never seen the dogs around that area before. It's also possible the dogs were dumped as unwanted pets. It's an awful pity they weren't microchipped.
Splitting it three ways would be ideal but the best that will happen is splitting it two ways between myself and my friend who took them for a couple of nights.

Whispered

Incidents like this is why mandatory chipping is a good idea. It's such a pity, the whole things is tragic from start to finish. I'm sorry you got caught up in it all.

MayoAreMagic

Huskies would probably rule out another farmer. But they are not the most common of breeds and are quite distinctive. If they are purebred you could do some research around the area. 2 huskies means that that there is a good chance that both were owned by the same person, which again, means you can ask around for someone who bought/owned 2 huskies... They aren't a cheap dog to buy, so them being dumped as unwanted is unlikely, they could have sold them... You are far more likely to find the owner of 2 huskies than 2 mongrels...

muddypaws

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Huskies would probably rule out another farmer. But they are not the most common of breeds and are quite distinctive. If they are purebred you could do some research around the area. 2 huskies means that that there is a good chance that both were owned by the same person, which again, means you can ask around for someone who bought/owned 2 huskies... They aren't a cheap dog to buy, so them being dumped as unwanted is unlikely, they could have sold them... You are far more likely to find the owner of 2 huskies than 2 mongrels...

I'm sorry, but that is not the case, huskies have been overbred big time by puppy farmers and dogs from those circumstances are not expensive, the pounds and rescues are now full of them, so there is a good chance they were dumped, as people can't even sell pups, let alone adults. However, as huskies are known escape artists, they could well have escaped from their owners, and there may be someone looking for them. OP do you know if anyone checked them for a microchip, as it is their owners that should be responsible, not people who tried to help. Can you post up a general area, as someone on here may know of two dogs that are missing, sometimes missing dogs are shared on the internet.

My sympathies to all of you involved, the farmer has lost his livestock, and obviously you and your friends were trying to do a good deed. I hope that it gets resolved.

DBB

+1 to Muddypaws... Huskies have become so common now that they're virtually ubiquitous! They are also great escape artists, and tend to have a high prey drive. Pounds and rescues are stuffed with them.
UK studies indicate that 97% of livestock attacks there are carried out by local dogs (I assume the figure would be much the same in Ireland), but in the case of huskies, they can range over huge distances with remarkable speed, so whilst I'd make all attempts to find the owner, the stats in this case may not apply.
As for liability, I'm afraid that despite your friend's kindness in offering to put the dogs up for the night, he is held liable for damage they do to livestock under the 1986 Control of Dogs Act:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1986/en/act/pub/0032/sec0009.html#sec9

The correct legal course of action, under the same Act, would have been for the original finder (or perhaps you or your friend) to contact the guards or dog warden to let them know that they had found the dogs. They would have been given the option to impound the dogs:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1986/en/act/pub/0032/sec0013.html#sec13

That however does not remove any liability from your unfortunate friend.

Rips

Do you have a photo of the dogs alive?

I would still appeal for the owner to come forward, (saying nothing about the sheep) and ask the farmer for some time.

Hell, if you are going to have to fork out the compensation, it may be even worth putting a paid ad in the local paper (where the dogs were found) to see if you have any luck.

What awful luck.

Rips

As far as the number of sheep, more may have later died from their injuries, or simply from shock, he will have a lot more loss that can't be quantified seeing as his herd has been stressed.

Jamboat

I've been looking through all the lost and found websites and rescue pages etc and rang around a lot of places and no sign of anyone reporting them missing.
My gut instinct is they were dumped.

willfarmerman

Pay the man what he is owed.

Jamboat

Willfarmerman there is not a problem with paying the man. Not once have I said that he was not going to be paid.

Jamboat

Willfarmerman there is not a problem with paying the man. Not once have I said that he was not going to be paid.

But we have been told by another sheep farmer, after asking around, that €1300 is too much. As I don't know anything at all about sheep farming I have asked the farmer to provide vet bills etc and I will also be looking for a valuation. If I'm forking out €1300 for dogs that aren't mine I definitely will want more proof than just his word.

_Brian

This has turned out to be a sorry mess for everyone.
However only one persons livelihood has been impacted and so the farmers compensation is priority.

In my mind the liability is spread between all who handled these stray dogs , is that three if ye??
In the end none if ye did the correct thing - contact the dog warden an have the dogs controlled or destroyed. Instead they were passed from one to another till they were allowed out to terrorise and kill defenceless animals. Your probably lucky as the sheep will probably all have had their lambs or you could also be faced with additional abortions, I've heard of flocks where more than 20 sheep have aborted.

I'd say between the three of ye come up wih the money and out this behinds you.

The farmer will have dockets from the disposal company to prove how many were taken away. But to be honest it's a cheek after killing animals from his livelihood to then accuse him of being a liar.

Kimbot

Sorry OP but you should not be paying out money to the farmer at all, the dogs were not in your care or control at the time of the incident and they arent even your dogs. I understand that the farmer needs to be compinsated but not by you.

willfarmerman

Jamboat wrote: »

Willfarmerman there is not a problem with paying the man. Not once have I said that he was not going to be paid.

But we have been told by another sheep farmer, after asking around, that €1300 is too much. As I don't know anything at all about sheep farming I have asked the farmer to provide vet bills etc and I will also be looking for a valuation. If I'm forking out €1300 for dogs that aren't mine I definitely will want more proof than just his word.

Well if you ask around enough you will always get the answer you want. In my educated opinion you are lucky it isn't 10000. They could have killed 60 sheep in day in a large flock. You are questioning the integrity of the farmer? And while you gaff about he is without sheep. Left with non thriving shell shocked stock and no money. Pay the man.

moy83

OP would it be worth a call to your house insurers ? I think they cover your own dogs if they are licensed
I dont think the farmer is being hard on you with his price considering the worry the rest of his flock would have gone through aswell which could cost him more again