Midlands reloading
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The reloading scheme is for F-Class only. So you need to join both the range and the F-Class squad and compete in long range shooting.
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Surely it beneficial for more than f class shooters if people want to learn to reload
And I presume the cost is the same for every member ?
If you can't enjoy the benefits of reloading , what sort of money is it to buy .308 or .223 ammo in midlands ?0 -
I have explained this numerous times over the years.
The reloading scheme was granted by the DoJ for F-Class/long range shooting ONLY to the NRAI. So it is not a range rule.
The NRAI sought reloading, and as they operate out of the Midlands it is only available to NRAI/F-Class/Long range shooters. The range itself did not seek reloading. It was granted for long range shooters to stay competitive so no reloading for anything other than this is permitted. This way all ammo, propellant, primers, etc. can be tracked and a case to keep it can be given. As a long range facility they are not looking to reload fro hunting purposes. As for other disciplines well if a member wants to partake and reloading helps (benchrest, match, TR, etc) then these are all covered under the banner of F-Class so reloading for them is allowed.
The yearly range fees are the same for all members. The range was established well before reloading was allowed. So members are members because they use the range facilities and not just to get reloading.
As for buying ammo on the range. It's not done. There is an armory, and the range controls the reloading components, but for factory ammo, it is not sold there.
There has been constant criticism of the reloading scheme since it was introduced to the Midlands. There is a sense of entitlement from some camps that because the "midlands" have it they should too. I said this before, but the NRAI have it, not the actual range, but also what have the other NGBs done for their members that wanted reloading. Nothing. They all refused it. The NRAI/Midlands has reloading because they sought it, and without reloaded ammo the long range lads would be at nothing.
A question for ya. It the NRAI did not seek reloading would we be having this conversation or would reloading be lost for good, as was the direction it was heading? The fact is reloading, however limited, is still here. If played correctly it might become available to more over time. The one thing for sure is with the NRAI/Midlands keeping the scheme running the door is already opened for other groups to follow suit, however since the introduction no other range/NGB has applied for it. Well none that i know off.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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Cheers for that , I was presuming that it was the range restricting it . Which I know now not to be that case . U covered everything I need to know .
So u bring ur own ammo to the range, am I correct in saying that ?
Thanks for taking the time to write that cass .0 -
I don't intend to come across as blunt or gruff, but there has been a lot of bad feeling, rumors, accusations and speculation about the reloading scheme in the Midlands. People don't know or understand the ins and outs so either make make it up or do understand and simply want to stir the sh*t.
As i've said before the NARGC refused it, the NASRPC refused it, other NGBs like the Pony club, ICPSA, and NTSA did not need or want it. The NRAI, as a long range governing body, needed reloading as factory ammo is simply not good enough especially when every other country has reloading and competing against other nations where they have tailor made ammo with factory stuff has, and is, a waste of time.So u bring ur own ammo to the range, am I correct in saying that ?Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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How do you join the "F Class Squad"?
How does Benchrest come in under F Class banner? I read somewhere that F Class was F Open & F/TR & possibly TR as didn't F Open & F/TR derive from TR?0 -
Dian Cecht wrote: »How do you join the "F Class Squad"?
Simple really. If you like the sport you can go about getting the right rifle and tools, but at the beginning you may use whatever rifle/gear you have and shoot in the Development squad. This caters specifically to newbies, lads that are curious about F-Class, and lads that want to shoot F-Class informally and not train for the Irish team.
None of this costs you more than your membership fee.How does Benchrest come in under F Class banner? I read somewhere that F Class was F Open & F/TR & possibly TR as didn't F Open & F/TR derive from TR?Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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Be a member of the Midlands, which is affiliated to the NRAI, gain membership to the NRAI through membership to the Midlands, go out and shoot F-Class.
Simple really. If you like the sport you can go about getting the right rifle and tools, but at the beginning you may use whatever rifle/gear you have and shoot in the Development squad. This caters specifically to newbies, lads that are curious about F-Class, and lads that want to shoot F-Class informally and not train for the Irish team.
None of this costs you more than your membership fee.
But isn't the development squad separate to the F Class squad? Isn't there a charge of €200 to join the F Class Squad? Or am I being misinformed?
So can development squad reload?Not under the F-Class banner, but the NRAI banner. They are NGB for Benchrest, Match, TR, FTR, F-Open. Most fullbore stuff which i believe includes historic rifle too.
What's "NGB"?
Not what you said aboveAs for other disciplines well if a member wants to partake and reloading helps (benchrest, match, TR, etc) then these are all covered under the banner of F-Class so reloading for them is allowed.
As for historic rifle isn't there a crowd called VCRAI or something like that responsible for older rifles? tac who posts here has mentioned it a few times.0 -
tac who posts here is the president of the VCRAI.
Anybody who shoots older manually-operated - or even the rare semi-auto -ex-military style of long arm from the metallic cartridge era forward is very welcome to join with us.
If it is within the fireams law of Ireland to own, it qualifies, from 6mm up to 8mm. Open sights, of course, up to three hundred YARDS for those arms as issued. Those arms that have have better sights as issued get penalised in the score, as is right and proper. Military calibre target rifles and sharpshooter rifles with telescopic sights as issued, based on military or modified military actions, like the Carl Gustav CG63 or Kongsberg Arsenal equivalent - even P14 and L-E - are all included, although those with telescopic sights - a maximum of x4 magnification BTW - have their own particular 'weighted' competitions for fairness' sake.
The following short list is not totally inclusive - I'm sure that you can think of some more that fit in there -
6mm Navy Lee
30-40 Krag
Any 6.5x55 Swedish
Any 7x57 Mauser
Any 7mm Lebel
Any 7.65 Argentine Mauser
Any .303 British
Any calibre of Arisaka or Murata
Any .30-06 Springfield
Any as-issued 7x62x51/.308Win
Any converted L-E, as well.
Any 7.5x55 Swiss, IG11,K11,K31 and anything else based on the original Schmidt-Rubin design.
7.92x57 Mauser
...and anything else that fits in there that might not be easy to find ammunition for -
Any of the Mannlicher, Terni, Carcano, Kirrikale rifles and carbines, and so on.
We are due to have a shoot at An Riocht Ranges later on this summer - the third Sunday in September to be specific.
Feel free to join us over on www.vcrai.com
In view of the more 'modern' outlook of the vast majority of shooters on this forum, for whom anything over ten years old is positively paleolithic, I try to keep any mention of the VCRAI down to responding to direct questions about that type of shooting, so now I'll shut up.
tac0 -
Dian Cecht wrote: »But isn't the development squad separate to the F Class squad? Isn't there a charge of €200 to join the F Class Squad? Or am I being misinformed?Dian Cecht wrote:How do you join the "F-Class Squad"?
Anyway for clarification, any other fee other than the membership fee of the Midlands is for F-Class lads that are training on the Irish Team. Those fees (the amount i don't know, but you obviously do) are for competitions entrance fees, and other expenses that relate solely to those that are on the Irish squad and competing abroad. It also, IIRC, covers them for a period of 2 years. It DOES NOT apply to anyone shooting on the range that is not training for the actual Irish Team.
The development squad is still under the banner of F-Class. It is a separate squad consisting of people off varying levels of ability. It would be unfair to lump a lad, with a standard hunting rifle into a crowd of lads with the best in custom gear, and expect him to keep up or even learn. All disciplines of fullbore shooting still come under the remit of the NRAI and as such reloading.What's "NGB"?Not what you said aboveAs for historic rifle isn't there a crowd called VCRAI or something like that responsible for older rifles? tac who posts here has mentioned it a few times.
What i do know is Historic falls under the banner of the NRAI.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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I'm even more confused now
As for not knowing, I asked how would someone join it not what it was
So if NRAI are NGB for historic rifle can they reload as historic rifle falls under banner of nrai and their disciplines all come under F class so therefore participants can reload on either the development squad or the F class squad or am I reading this thread arseways?0 -
Dian Cecht wrote: »I'm even more confused now
I don't shoot on the Irish team. I shoot in the development squad. Both come under the F-Class squad, as does match, TR, etc, etc. All disciplines of long range shooting. The squads are separated to accommodate newbies, lads not interested/unable to shoot for the Irish team, and to bring along intermediate shooters.
If a lad on the development squad wants to shoot for the Irish team he simply talks to the Irish team captain, and they will bring him on board. Vice versa. If a lad, like i did, cannot continue to shoot for the Irish team wants to take a step back from the Team end of things, but continue to shoot he goes into the development squad.
The range is 1,200 yards with 24 firing points accommodating two lads to a firing point.
So there is more than enough room to let everyone shoot at the same time.
The development squad is a great idea. I wish i had it when i started. You are not intimidated or put off by shooting next to lads that have years of experience and even medals under their belt. You learn at your own pace and with experienced lads shooting on the same squad you have the benefit of their knowledge to help you with.
You DON'T need a full custom FTR rig. Actually i would advise against buying one from the start. Come out, use your current rig, and shoot away. If you like the sport then you can decide to upgrade whenever you can afford to. However this DOES NOT stop you from shooting in any NRAI discipline, and allows you to join the reloading scheme.
To join the reloading scheme you shoot for a bit in the squad (any of them), and then you put your name forward to the lads at the MNSCI. They forward your details to the DoJ (because they control it), and you can now get your reloading gear and start to reload. A course is available for anyone that wishes to learn the basics of reloading. You then have the experienced lads that will help you perfect your load through tips and techniques they have learned over time.
The fee you mention is ONLY for the Irish Team. Not for anyone else. So my comment about the membership fees being your only cost is true (outside guns, ammo, etc). I never paid any fee, but as i said above i don't shoot for the Team. With the team going to at least two international shoots a year the fee was to cover registration for shoots, and to know who was committed to the team. It runs for 2 years, afaik. Any other fee is competition related as with all competitions so it's not a surprise when you turn up to a comp and are asked to pay to enter.
I think that covers most things if not everything. Unless there is something i have missed in which case ask.As for not knowing, I asked how would someone join it not what it was
If you know more than you are letting on then please do me a favour and stop trying to drag this thread out by asking "leading" questions when you know the answer(s). I am being upfront and honest and answering question fully on the pretense you don't know anything. If something is bothering you, if you have a specific question then ask.
I really don't have time for the "i don't know any better" poition.So if NRAI are NGB for historic rifle can they reload as historic rifle falls under banner of nrai and their disciplines all come under F class so therefore participants can reload on either the development squad or the F class squad or am I reading this thread arseways?
@ tac foley - I see your post about the VCRAI, and the edit, but i do not see any clarification on the issue of the position of the VCRAI. Dian Cecht asked why the NRAI has NGB status over this instead of the VCRAI. AS president perhaps you can answer the following:- Are the VCRAI an NGB?
- Do they represent classic/historic shooting?
- Are the NRAI actually the NGB for this shooting?
Thanks.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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As for "misrepresentation" do you check under you're bed for monsters before you get into the bed? Seriously, I've heard stories, whispers, rumours and what not and sometimes it's nice to get the right version.
Specific questions so far
what's Irish Sports Council?
what's the difference between an NGB and an association?
why does recognition of ISC seem to be so important?
can an association be recognised by this isc?0 -
Dian Cecht wrote: »As for "misrepresentation" do you check under you're bed for monsters before you get into the bed? Seriously, I've heard stories, whispers, rumours and what not and sometimes it's nice to get the right version.
Specific questions so far
what's Irish Sports Council?
what's the difference between an NGB and an association?
why does recognition of ISC seem to be so important?
can an association be recognised by this isc?
Whatever you have heard, as a new member there , starting out in FTR , all I can say is I've never met a bunch of blokes more welcoming, friendly and willing to help you out.0 -
Dian Cecht wrote: »As for "misrepresentation" do you check under you're bed for monsters before you get into the bed?Seriously, I've heard stories, whispers, rumours and what not and sometimes it's nice to get the right version.
It annoys me to no end. It would be akin to me being pissed at you for having a .308 rifle when i don't even though i never bothered to apply for one. Simplistic example but you et my meaning. I've asked this before and never got an answer. What deal could the NRAI do to get reloading? Seriously. What has the NRAI got that the DoJ could want? The answer is simple. NOTHING. Whatever the NRAI has is granted at the discretion of the DoJ/An Gardaí. We do not have a right to firearms or reloading. If the DoJ wanted to take something form us they do not need us to deal with them they can simply take it by introducing an SI or amending the Act to ban it.what's ISC?what's the difference between an NGB and an association?
An association is a club with no governing body status. Unless i'm corrected, like the VCRAI. A collection.group of like minded guys enjoying their sport.why does recognition of ISC seem to be so important?can an association be recognised by this isc?Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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OH Holy God :eek: There's more to this than I thought0
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There always is.
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Right, been trying to get my head around this.
Why is it so important to be the NGB for something unless you want money from ISC?
Sure once people can participate in the discipline does it matter who the "boss" is?0 -
Omg !! What have I done !
Look I've done a deal for a blaser lrs2 . All I want to know is can I join midland , join the development squad and Lear to reload and what caliber would be cheapest/best for reloading0 -
Dian Cecht wrote: »Right, been trying to get my head around this.
Why is it so important to be the NGB for something unless you want money from ISC?
For the ordinary shooter, it doesn't matter a huge amount unless it all goes pear-shaped. For the sport as a whole, and for the seriously competitive shooter, it matters quite a lot.0 -
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Dian Cecht wrote:Why is it so important to be the NGB for something unless you want money from ISC?
The main reasons are to be able to represent your country, and have representation to the likes of the DoJ, etc. for the people involved. Up until a few years ago Irish shooters could not compete as Ireland in long range/F-Class because we did not have NGB status. So any comps won could not be rewarded with medals, and each guy had to compete in individual comps as Irish shooters, but not shooting for Ireland.
As i said above most sports are worldwide. As such there is always a worldwide governing body. Much like FIFA for soccer. They lay down the rules for international comps and demand that the team shooting has been recognised by them, and represents their country. I don't know the ins and outs of other organisations, but it's the same with the NTSA.Dian Cecht wrote:Sure once people can participate in the discipline does it matter who the "boss" is?Omg !! What have I done !:P
Look I've done a deal for a blaser lrs2 . All I want to know is can I join midland , join the development squad and Lear to reload and what caliber would be cheapest/best for reloading
We have had lads come in and ask "how do i get reloading". When asked if they shoot long range, etc. they simply say "i've no interest in that, i just want reloading". They are politely told it won't happen. Reloading is still a fragile thing. The NRAI with the Midlands are keeping the practice alive, and will not jeopardise it for anyone.
As for caliber. The three main ones are 6.5x284, 7mm (and derivatives), and .308. There are a couple of others but none that are competitive.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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I'd like to draw the attention of readers here to the basic tenet of the VCRAI -
'The VCRAI was formed in late 2008 by a group of members from various clubs around the country and has as its aim the promotion and development of the sport of Vintage & Classic target rifle shooting in the Republic of Ireland, and to foster associations with like-minded shooters in other countries to the benefit of all of who love old guns. We therefore welcome members from all clubs. The VCRAI regularly holds competitions both in Ireland and abroad, including recent trips to the world famous NRA UK Bisley range. Range days are held throughout the year. One of the appealing elements of this type of target shooting is the simplicity of equipment needed - just one person and one vintage or classic rifle.'
Although small by most standards the VCRAI is nevertheless well-supported on a totally voluntary basis by its members, drawn from all over the island of Ireland to a wind-blown and often wet or foggy range - An Riocht at Castlemaine in Co Kerry - to take part in the competitions out to 300 yards.
It is not an NGB, but is nevertheless not only affiliated to the UKNRA at Bisley, but is, we are led to believe, widely regarded by the DoJ as akin to an NGB, having been introduced by Mr Craven of The Midlands back in 2008, when we were first set up, at that time, actually at the Midlands ranges. The increasing interest in the affordable shooting of older firearms, within the historical context of the three-hundred yard range limit, and in the our classic shooting positions, seems to have renewed the interest of a certain section of the shooting community, if the license applications and resultant sales of suitable firearms and ammunition over the last six years or so is anything to go by. In particular, the increasing popularity of the Swiss Schmidt-Rubin and K31 rifles, with their incredibly accurate GP11 surplus ammunition, is more or less down to the efforts of association members and their keenth to acquire one of finest and most accurate of all former military longarms. Most of those examples we see [including both of mine] have been far longer in private hands back in Switzerland than they were ever in service. I'd like to point out, too, that the VCRAI is, to my knowledge, the only shooting association whose members compete in four positions at different ranges - unlike most others, that stay at 300 yards/meters and shoot whatever it is that they shoot, whatever position they adopt.
I am unaware that the NRAI has made any claim to be the spiritual 'home' of classic rifle shooting in the Republic of Ireland. In any event, I have not noticed any marked movement by that organisation into the fostering of such shooting interests, apart from the odd mention of 'classic rifle'. As you yourself pointed out so succinctly, old guns have no interest for you whatsoever - a point of view that I'm sure is shared by the vast majority of shooters who visit the Midlands. It is therefore up to little associations like the VCRAI, made up of enthusiastic and knowledgeable amateurs and their older rifles, to fill that important gap in our shooting interests without having the benefit of the support, in whatever form it might take, of a national organisation that is more intent on garnering recognition for its present-day shooters [rightly so] than living in the past, as those of us in the VCRAI do.
tac0 -
Although small by most standards the VCRAI is nevertheless well-supported on a totally voluntary basis by its members, .......It is not an NGB, but is nevertheless not only affiliated to the UKNRA at Bisley, but is, we are led to believe, widely regarded by the DoJ as akin to an NGB,
Also, and without nit picking, "akin" is not an actual NGB. So when it comes down to it you do not enjoy the privileges NGB status may grant.I am unaware that the NRAI has made any claim to be the spiritual 'home' of classic rifle shooting in the Republic of Ireland
I, on the other hand, made the remark that i believed they were the NGB for such shooting. I also asked for correction on that matter above because as i have said numerous times both here and in other threads i don't know much about old guns. I am lead to believe there is a difference, but honestly Vintage, classic, historical, etc. all mean the same thing to me. Old.
The midlands/NRAI host historical shoots, and facilitate black powder shooting. As an NGB they may represent the country whereas the VCRAI not being an NGB would not have the same recognition. Yes your members can shoot as individuals, and fair play to them, but going on past experiences without NGB status they cannot represent the country as an Irish Team. Also if they are affiliated to the NRAUK would that not cause problems too?
Let me clarify one point here. This thread started out as a simple question which i answered. Dian Cecht then took it in another direction. He also mentioned the VCRAI, and that is the reason why attention has been drawn to the association. I am not on some vendetta against the VCRAI. To be so, i would need a reason, which i don't have. I don't claim to know it all, and in some cases a little information can be a dangerous thing. However i am trying to answer all questions openly an honestly. However i also have questions that i need answering.
What i would like to know is this. Why does the VCRAI not apply for NGB status? If, as you claim, the NRAI are only the "spiritual home" of such shooting (not sure whether to use classic, vintage, etc) then surely they are not represented and a vacancy exists that the VCRAI can fill.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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Forget it il buy a airsoft gun0
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Join the range and the NRAI, put your name forward for F-Class, then the reloading and there is no reason you cannot do it.
As for caliber as i said above the three main calibers are 6.5x284, 7mm, and .308. These are the three main calibers used in FTR and F-Open. Macth rifle, benchrest varies, but other calibers include but are not limited to 6mmBR, .223, etc. However the development squad is designed for lads starting off to use the gun and caliber they have. This negates the need to buy a specific caliber and invest a lot of money into a rifle when you are not sure if you want to stay at the sport.
So in short any caliber you want to start with is fine, but the .308 is probably the best all rounder.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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Cheers lad the blaser comes with a 6.5x55 , but interchangeable barrel so I could just buy a .308 .
Cheers for the reply0 -
6.5x55 with factory ammo would go as far as 800. Anything after, and sometimes up to that, is a waste. The factory stuff is just not good enough. With reloaded the 6.5x55 would easily do 1,000 so no need to go changing barrels just yet.
Go over sometime you get a chance, have a look around, talk with a few people and then work with what you have until you decide which way you want to go. IOW keep the cost low at the start.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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Cass - You asked why we chose to affiliate to Bisley, actually to the UK NRA, whose home is located there. It was made very plain to us at that time that in order to continue to use the facilities at the Midlands that we would have to drop the 'I' off association title.
We chose not to do that, and were therefore obliged to look elsewhere for range facilities that did not require a name-change. A point here - I did NOT say that the VCRAI is the 'virtual home' of anything, although by inference from its very title, it focuses principally on older-style rifles and carbines, usually ex-military in nature.
IF the VCRAI were ever to go looking for a base that would allow its members to shoot further than 300 yards, then it would have to be one where there were no strings attached that would require us to change any part of it that currently exists.
In any case, VCRAI members who want to compete as individuals in classic vintage arms shoots of the kind that we shoot in the VCRAI competitions are able to do so at Bisley, or anywhere else for that matter. However, Bisley has not only inumerable competitions in which to compete, but literally hundreds of fellow 'old gun shooters' with whom to share the experience at the world-famous home of long-range shooting of all kinds. The VCRAI-style shooter is not a funny anachronism there, with his strange old ióc of a gun, but is just one or two or three of hundreds of other shooters of old guns from all over the Commonwealth and ROW. I have to say that the cachet of being associated, albeit in a very small way, with an organisation and set-up with such international fame and prestige, is very heartening.
As for why the VCRAI does not apply for NGB status, the answer is linked inextricably to the point detailed above. However, at the time the now-defunct SSAI was the body tasked with bestowing NGB status. As they disbanded several years ago, it therefore is of little relevancy to bother now, especially in view of the likely price to our organisation's very name. Having 'Ireland' in the name is very important to us, as you can appreciate.
Anyhow, I've drifted away from your thread long enough. I think that I've answered your questions as much as I'm prepared to do on a public forum, and I suspect that the readers here will make their own minds up about the VCRAI and join us or not. This is categorically not a trawl for membership.
Best to all here, no matter what you shoot.
tac
www.vcrai.com0