Brewery quarter not required

dwiseman

BUNK1982 wrote: »

It seems like a no brainer which is why the council will probably opt for it - no brains.

Albert Quay is a great location for many different types of development but a 5,000 capacity events centre is not one of them. Drop that in there and all the arguments around traffic and accessibility will be moot.

The Beamish site is already in the city centre.

Can you elaborate as to why its not suitable or how you think the beamish site is more feasible?

dwiseman

Balmed Out wrote: »

Concerts happen at night. Theres no city centre congestion then. Most will use public transport or be staying in a city centre hotel. Putting it outside the heart of the city would result in far more car journeys.
Yes large conferences would affect day time traffic but again for large conferences most will stay in a city center hotel so they will be driving in there anyhow

Concerts happen at night? Doors open around 5 to 6pm normally, you'd be increasing traffic at peak times. Outside the heart of the city? This isn't London you'd walk from one side of the city to another in under 15 minutes. Albert quay is also closer to the main arteries for traffic entering the city than the beamish site is so by your reasoning putting it in the beamish site would result in more car journeys....
Seriously, with all the time you had to reply that's all you could come up with? :rolleyes:

BUNK1982

dwiseman wrote: »

Can you elaborate as to why its not suitable or how you think the beamish site is more feasible?

I believe Albert Quay is not suitable for this particular development because:
1. it's at the end of the South Link Road and is the main route for crossing the city North/ South, that route is already in need of a relief bridge further down the river which was recommended as part of the docklands development
2. it won't won't fit in with the overall theme of the area which is more along the lines of a business district, i can't see it being a catalyst for developing the area
3. architecturally it won't add much to the city

By contrast if they go for the Beamish site
1. it creates definitive centre for culture, entertainment and the arts in Cork, good for locals and tourists alike as it's near St. Finbarres Cathedral, the Glucksmann, Fitzgeralds Park etc.
2. the surrounding area would benefit more from having it built there - lot's of pubs, restaurants and shops in the area already. Barrack Street and Douglas St. are affordable areas currently so people involved in the industry would start to live nearby and revitalise the community, old buildings would be done up etc.
3. It will look better

AugustusMinimus

dwiseman wrote: »

Concerts happen at night? Doors open around 5 to 6pm normally, you'd be increasing traffic at peak times. Outside the heart of the city? This isn't London you'd walk from one side of the city to another in under 15 minutes. Albert quay is also closer to the main arteries for traffic entering the city than the beamish site is so by your reasoning putting it in the beamish site would result in more car journeys....
Seriously, with all the time you had to reply that's all you could come up with? :rolleyes:

Do we really have to repeat Mahon Point but in the city centre.

Massive shopping centre development happens right beside the South Ring Road with a single access point and of course, it leads to traffic nightmare.

You want to see the Albert Quay development go ahead which will position it right beside the N27 which is the 2nd largest North-South traffic artery in the entire city. It could cause absolutely traffic chaos in the city centre.

AugustusMinimus

BUNK1982 wrote: »

I believe Albert Quay is not suitable for this particular development because:
1. it's at the end of the South Link Road and is the main route for crossing the city North/ South, that route is already in need of a relief bridge further down the river which was recommended as part of the docklands development
2. it won't won't fit in with the overall theme of the area which is more along the lines of a business district, i can't see it being a catalyst for developing the area
3. architecturally it won't add much to the city

By contrast if they go for the Beamish site
1. it creates definitive centre for culture, entertainment and the arts in Cork, good for locals and tourists alike as it's near St. Finbarres Cathedral, the Glucksmann, Fitzgeralds Park etc.
2. the surrounding area would benefit more from having it built there - lot's of pubs, restaurants and shops in the area already. Barrack Street and Douglas St. are affordable areas currently so people involved in the industry would start to live nearby and revitalise the community, old buildings would be done up etc.
3. It will look better

What a difference is would make to South Main Street and the area in general. The area at present is viewed as the cultural / nightlife area of the city. This development would only enhance it further.

Milly33

Well said!!! It would be daft to put it in the City, again another Mahon Point which will be chocker block for any events.. And haha bring more work to town me arse they will probably outsource any new work there is

dwiseman

BUNK1982 wrote: »

I believe Albert Quay is not suitable for this particular development because:
1. it's at the end of the South Link Road and is the main route for crossing the city North/ South, that route is already in need of a relief bridge further down the river which was recommended as part of the docklands development
2. it won't won't fit in with the overall theme of the area which is more along the lines of a business district, i can't see it being a catalyst for developing the area
3. architecturally it won't add much to the city

By contrast if they go for the Beamish site
1. it creates definitive centre for culture, entertainment and the arts in Cork, good for locals and tourists alike as it's near St. Finbarres Cathedral, the Glucksmann, Fitzgeralds Park etc.
2. the surrounding area would benefit more from having it built there - lot's of pubs, restaurants and shops in the area already. Barrack Street and Douglas St. are affordable areas currently so people involved in the industry would start to live nearby and revitalise the community, old buildings would be done up etc.
3. It will look better

For all that typing you have no solid argument.

All the reasons you gave for it to go into the city centre can be applied to Albert quay, revitalization of an area, benefit to surrounding area. Some waffle about affordable areas and people starting to live nearby?

Then you talk about why albert quay isn't suitable and you mention how its at the end of the link, which gives it a clear advantage, so dont really see your point. Then you address the theme of the area. The area is changing as the city expands, the placement of the venue here would be major driving force for many other developments and businesses in the area, that's economics. Then you give architecture your unique critque.

AugustusMinimus

dwiseman wrote: »

For all that typing you have no solid argument.

All the reasons you gave for it to go into the city centre can be applied to Albert quay, revitalization of an area, benefit to surrounding area. Some waffle about affordable areas and people starting to live nearby?

Then you talk about why albert quay isn't suitable and you mention how its at the end of the link, which gives it a clear advantage, so dont really see your point. Then you address the theme of the area. The area is changing as the city expands, the placement of the venue here would be major driving force for many other developments and businesses in the area, that's economics. Then you give architecture your unique critque.

You are clearly ignoring 2 points.

1. The traffic chaos it will cause placing a 5,000 seater arena beside the N27. As has been experienced just about everywhere in the country, putting large developments right beside important traffic arteries is a big no no.
2. That it is being built in the middle of the business district when the development will be largely an entertainment venue.

dwiseman

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Do we really have to repeat Mahon Point but in the city centre.

Massive shopping centre development happens right beside the South Ring Road with a single access point and of course, it leads to traffic nightmare.

You want to see the Albert Quay development go ahead which will position it right beside the N27 which is the 2nd largest North-South traffic artery in the entire city. It could cause absolutely traffic chaos in the city centre.

And if you place it at the beamish site where do you think the traffic will go as it exits the link? Into the city centre?

AugustusMinimus

dwiseman wrote: »

And if you place it at the beamish site where do you think the traffic will go as it exits the link? Into the city centre?

People all won't be using the link to access the Beamish site.

The location of Albert Quay leads to only 3 access points. North and South on the N27 and the Blackrock to the West. That is all.

On the other hand, the Beamish site is more accessible with higher street density in the area and the one way systems actually being a lot more helpful overall. Thankfully, South Main street isn't a traffic hot spot.

dwiseman

Let's see how it pans out then.

Balmed Out

dwiseman wrote: »

Concerts happen at night? Doors open around 5 to 6pm normally, you'd be increasing traffic at peak times. Outside the heart of the city? This isn't London you'd walk from one side of the city to another in under 15 minutes. Albert quay is also closer to the main arteries for traffic entering the city than the beamish site is so by your reasoning putting it in the beamish site would result in more car journeys....
Seriously, with all the time you had to reply that's all you could come up with? :rolleyes:

I havent seen anything you've said with any actual point other then throw away comments such as 'no brainier' so its a bit childish and rich replying in such a flippant manner.

It may have escaped you but congestion in the city at 6pm is worst on out ward routes, not approach routes.

It may also escape your notice but while albert quay is very accessible from Douglas, mahon and Blackrock its not so easy from other areas. Indeed for anyone approaching from the north itll be a bit of a bottle neck bringing a car there.

I dont like to be dismissive but seriously, with all the time you had to reply that's all you could come up with? :rolleyes

I dont think its a perfect choice but it is the best choice imho. Id be more worried about losing views of the cathedral and yes the area could do with more parking but from a transport viewpoint, a tourist viewpoint, a city management viewpoint I think its the best option.

dwiseman

Balmed Out wrote: »

I havent seen anything you've said with any actual point other then throw away comments such as 'no brainier' so its a bit childish and rich replying in such a flippant manner.

It may have escaped you but congestion in the city at 6pm is worst on out ward routes, not approach routes.

It may also escape your notice but while albert quay is very accessible from Douglas, mahon and Blackrock its not so easy from other areas. Indeed for anyone approaching from the north itll be a bit of a bottle neck bringing a car there.

I dont like to be dismissive but seriously, with all the time you had to reply that's all you could come up with? :rolleyes

I dont think its a perfect choice but it is the best choice imho. Id be more worried about losing views of the cathedral and yes the area could do with more parking but from a transport viewpoint, a tourist viewpoint, a city management viewpoint I think its the best option.

Approaching from the north off dunkettle through tivoli and directly onto albert quay couldnt be more straightfoward. The point in dublin would be a similar scenario with regard to its position. Anyway this is all conjecture we will see the result soon enough.

BUNK1982

dwiseman wrote: »

For all that typing you have no solid argument.

All the reasons you gave for it to go into the city centre can be applied to Albert quay, revitalization of an area, benefit to surrounding area. Some waffle about affordable areas and people starting to live nearby?

Then you talk about why albert quay isn't suitable and you mention how its at the end of the link, which gives it a clear advantage, so dont really see your point. Then you address the theme of the area. The area is changing as the city expands, the placement of the venue here would be major driving force for many other developments and businesses in the area, that's economics. Then you give architecture your unique critque.

It's not waffle - it's looking at this particular development in the context of the city's development as a whole in the short, medium and long term. Like i said, the Albert Quay area is an excellent development opportunity but just not suitable for this.

1. Affordable areas and living in the city centre could lead to a thriving cultural scene in Cork with enormous economic potential. Having a large population in the city centre reduces crime and ensures the area is well kept - money follows voters!
2. This development at the end of the link road increases traffic on the link which leads to congestion a la Mahon Point, Dunkettle and the Jack Lynch tunnel
3. Yes the theme of the Albert Quay area is changing - towards high rise office blocks, which i agree with but why drop a venue in there? Also why is the city expanding?? There are loads of areas primed for development in the centre so why not use them.
4. If you want economics, then try selling an Event Organiser an identikit glass and steel box that could be built anywhere. Or sell a venue that used to be a world famous brewery, has a museum nearby that maintains the original facade and is overlooked by the city's historic walls and cathedral

dwiseman

BUNK1982 wrote: »

It's not waffle - it's looking at this particular development in the context of the city's development as a whole in the short, medium and long term. Like i said, the Albert Quay area is an excellent development opportunity but just not suitable for this.

1. Affordable areas and living in the city centre could lead to a thriving cultural scene in Cork with enormous economic potential. Having a large population in the city centre reduces crime and ensures the area is well kept - money follows voters!
2. This development at the end of the link road increases traffic on the link which leads to congestion a la Mahon Point, Dunkettle and the Jack Lynch tunnel
3. Yes the theme of the Albert Quay area is changing - towards high rise office blocks, which i agree with but why drop a venue in there? Also why is the city expanding?? There are loads of areas primed for development in the centre so why not use them.
4. If you want economics, then try selling an Event Organiser an identikit glass and steel box that could be built anywhere. Or sell a venue that used to be a world famous brewery, has a museum nearby that maintains the original facade and is overlooked by the city's historic walls and cathedral

We will see soon enough.

Nash Bridges

Does anyone know when a formal decision will be made?

Whichever site is chosen I think it will be a very positive addition to the city.

evilivor

Nash Bridges wrote: »

Does anyone know when a formal decision will be made?

July 8th.

Cork City Council will then decide whether or not they will put City funding into it the following week.

AugustusMinimus

evilivor wrote: »

July 8th.

Cork City Council will then decide whether or not they will put City funding into it the following week.

What exactly are they deciding on July 8th. I thought the only decision was which one to put public funding into as planning has already been granted to both sites ?

evilivor

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

What exactly are they deciding on July 8th. I thought the only decision was which one to put public funding into as planning has already been granted to both sites ?

There are two tranches of pubic funding available - €10m in state funding and Cork City Council's potential investment of a further €6m

The evaluation panel is issuing its report July 8 indicating the preferred developer. Councillors will then decide on whether the City Council should invest its own funds in the event centre at a meeting on July 14.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Thepikapi

A subway would be great, and cork does have approx 300,000 people including the metro and urban areas of the city, but we should do these changes step by step, work on things a block at a time. We need to get rid of this poisonous pessimistic attitude to everything, our city will shrivel up and die and become a wasteland if we carry on like this, making cork great is a tangible achievement!

KCAccidental

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

no where near enough population for that line. there's about 500 people who live around the viaduct. plus it would be cost prohibitive to create a right of way or tunnel for that.

BRT from ballincollig to carraigaline via CIT, UCC, south mall, blackrock, mahon point and mount oval would be enough. with a spur to the airport. Even creating a right of way for that would be expensive due to the **** car-centric planning in Cork's Western suburbs.

if successful it could be upgraded to LRT in time.

anyways, it doesn't really have anything to do with an events centre!

Balmed Out

Ye arent comparing like for like population figures, Rennes is well over half a million its a much bigger city then Cork, Lausane also I believe is actually bigger then Cork. What matters most is population density and im not sure Cork has any potential line with the necessary population density.
:mad:

Thepikapi

Cork and Lausanne are very similar in population, Lausanne has a population density of 3,153 /km2 while Cork has a density of 3,194 /km2. In size Cork is 37.3km2 while Lausanne is 41.38 km2 (we should also take into account that a city boundary extension is proposed to take place which will increase the Corkonian population to 180,000). They are very close, I think that a light rail would work well as they're generally faster, more efficient and hold more people than a bus if a metro is out of the question.

CHealy

Cant build a subway in Cork ffs, it is a MARSH.

Need to get a BRT sorted though as someone else mentioned. Such an easy and proactive service to implement but I doubt we'll ever see it in our lifetime.

Balmed Out

Lausanne id bet had some other rail system that was modernized to build from scratch a system in Cork without first at least trying to get a proper bus system up and running would be madness.

CHealy

Balmed Out wrote: »

Lausanne id bet had some other rail system that was modernized to build from scratch a system in Cork without first at least trying to get a proper bus system up and running would be madness.

Its a pity the corporation or whoever it was at the time saw fit to tarmac over the tram lines in Cork. If anything, they would have even served as a tourist attraction as I saw with the old trams in Lisbon.

Balmed Out

CHealy wrote: »

Its a pity the corporation or whoever it was at the time saw fit to tarmac over the tram lines in Cork. If anything, they would have even served as a tourist attraction as I saw with the old trams in Lisbon.

TRUE same with lines going to west cork, would have been great for tourism but the cost of reinstating would be too high.

Pepsirebel

dwiseman wrote: »

,


It's 5 minute walk to the city centre, 2 minutes form the clarion and jurys inn for accomodation, 5 minutes from the bus station, 10 to the train station. Easy access to the south link. Within 100 metres from Golbergs bar, The idle hour and the sextant. Numerous sites within 800 metres on centre park road to create ample parking for patrons. It is the most suitable site in the county, a real no brainer.

I would agree......the cork bonded warehouse on the wedge between the north & south river channels could be renovated into restaurants/cafe bars/etc with a boardwalk wrapped around and upgrade the mooring that's there at present.

The brewery quarter could be utilised best as a brewery/smithsonian type museum.....making two new attractions in one swoop

BUNK1982

More good news:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/revised-euro45m-office-block-granted-approval-273205.html

Like I've said previously, i think sort of development is perfect for the Albert Quay area but the conference center should go to the Brewery Quarter.

In any case it's bringing money and jobs back to the city centre