New Quays Cycling Lane Dublin

kencoo

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/new-quays-cycle-lane-to-lead-to-restrictions-for-dublin-motorists-1.1834760

I use the quays every day - south quay is like running the gauntlet... id say motorists are happy!

magicbastarder

that's an odd article - the subhead mentions moving an historic park to allow this, but there is no mention of this in the main body of the article. i wonder if it's the croppy acre.
it's low on other detail as well.

i can imagine how confusing it will be for all road users to have all motor vehicles allowed one direction up the quays, but only cyclists coming the other direction.

buffalo

I emailed the two councillors mentioned as having reacted negatively/cautiously to this plan, and have now received two responses.

One was detailed, explaining some of his economic reasoning, and the other said simply, 'thanks'.

I'd urge everyone on the forum to get in touch with anyone who has influence in the matter, and make sure your voice is heard. Otherwise they'll go on believing what the newspaper editors tell them - that this will kill the city centre, just like the bus gate. Or an awful shambles, just like the Dublin Bike scheme.

Orion

buffalo wrote: »

Or an awful shambles, just like the Dublin Bike scheme.

I actually thought that would be a disaster myself. Not just because of the way it works but I mainly didn't think the bikes would last a day without scumbags smashing them and/or littering the Liffey with them. I am still pleasantly surprised at how much of a success it's been.

Hmmzis

Regarding the concerns about traffic getting worse if this is implemented:

http://www.wired.com/2014/06/wuwt-traffic-induced-demand/

Research shows it might not make a difference whatsoever.

Johnny Jukebox

I have some sympathy for people who have to drive in and out of the city for whatever reason and I'd be hacked off at this proposal if I was one of these. I am lucky enough to be able to cycle and I really don't like bus/Luas/DART/car on the very rare occasion I have to use them to commute.

Add in the vast, free car parking for DCC employees (and other city center based public servants) and it looks a bit more shabby.

Kav0777

I misread the thread title as "New Quays Cycling League Dublin"

I'm a little disappointed to be wrong, to be honest...

mirrormatrix

I'm an avid cyclist myself but this idea is not one that I would be in favour of. The quays are a main artery for traffic in this city and, I believe, should be kept as is with cars and bicycles sharing the road. Introducing a two-way cycle lane would give rise to a number of issues. The two major ones I can think of off the top of my head are:

1) You would have contra flow traffic. This would mean that you would have to have a separate lights system for bikes, pedestrians and cars like on the canal. And we all know how crap that bike lane is. Takes hours for anyone to get anywhere along it on a bike.

2) Because of the contra-flow, you would have to keep the bike lane separate from traffic. This would give rise to a lot of the problems associated with keeping cycling traffic separate that posters have gone into on numerous other threads about badly designed cycle lanes in Ireland. It would also have the added effect (as many cycle lanes do) of a lot of cyclists not using the bike lane and clogging the (now reduced in size) road. This would only serve to further heighten tensions between cyclists and motorists and I believe would likely end up in cycle lanes becoming mandatory again.

We all know the quays aren't a particularly nice place to be if you are a novice cyclist. Could cyclists not use alternate routes around the city centre? I'm sure the same question could be asked of motorists, but I don't think that the number of cyclists vs number of motorists using that road in any way justifies giving cyclists an entire lane?

smackyB

mirrormatrix wrote: »

...

We all know the quays aren't a particularly nice place to be if you are a novice cyclist. Could cyclists not use alternate routes around the city centre? I'm sure the same question could be asked of motorists, but I don't think that the number of cyclists vs number of motorists using that road in any way justifies giving cyclists an entire lane?

One of the major reasons motorists outnumber cyclists using that road is because it's far too intimidating for the majority of cyclists. I've cycled for years and I hate using the quays, I can't imagine how scary it must be for a novice. You can't use current numbers as an argument against creating a lane. Build it and they will come.

buffalo

smackyB wrote: »

One of the major reasons motorists outnumber cyclists using that road is because it's far too intimidating for the majority of cyclists. I've cycled for years and I hate using the quays, I can't imagine how scary it must be for a novice. You can't use current numbers as an argument against creating a lane. Build it and they will come.

I've seen this argument time and time again - motorists make up the majority of visitors to the city centre, most people commute by car... therefore we should make life easier for those people, which means more people will choose to drive, and it becomes a vicious circle.

Tenzor07

Widen roads, remove bus/cycle lanes, free on-street parking, double that silly 30kph speed limit, reduced pedestrian crossing time. Luas stops for cars, make the BXD line a priority car lane instead..

Signed, G.Hook, and "The AA"

eeeee

mirrormatrix wrote: »

We all know the quays aren't a particularly nice place to be if you are a novice cyclist. Could cyclists not use alternate routes around the city centre? I'm sure the same question could be asked of motorists, but I don't think that the number of cyclists vs number of motorists using that road in any way justifies giving cyclists an entire lane?

I actually think cycling the quays isn't that bad. Yes some of the junctions are a mess but if you keep a good eye around you they're no more intimidating/hard than anywhere else. When I started cycling around Dublin, 12 years ago now, I was told the quays were super scary etc. They never were, I had way more problems on the n11 than I have ever had on the quays. It's slower for one.

I am ambivalent about the new lanes. I never use the two-way canal one, the white line is advisory at best, and the amount of slower moving cyclists makes it too dangerous and aggravating to use (Passing out others and the salmoning.) and I am not super speedy by any means. If you commute over 15kph it's a no go I find. The Clontarf one is better for wrong side of the 'road' riders but still a problem every time I go on it. Unless it's quite I avoid it.
Which is the biggest problem. Not cycling in the cycle lane is the biggest cause of getting beeped/shouted at/pushed off the road for me, and this definitely won't help lessen this. Drivers with little understanding of the above issues are hardly going to be more sympathetic to cyclists heading up by them on the road in a traffic jam when there is a two way cycle lane right beside it.
Also the filtering right/left depending on direction. I have yet to find an off the road cycle lane in Dublin that does this at all well.

All said though, it might encourage more people out on the bike and commute to work which is no bad thing, more cyclists on the road etc. etc. etc.

Orion

mirrormatrix wrote: »

Could cyclists not use alternate routes around the city centre?

For those of us that work in the city centre what do you suggest? Change job so we don't have to cycle down the quays?

buffalo

For me, it's not so much about the specific facility, but more of a general push to make cycling 'normal'. To make it acceptable that road space is given over to facilitate cyclists of any shape or form. That'll encourage more people cycling, and hopefully that'll continue the upward spiral currently underway.

dave_o_brien

For what it's worth, I'd be supportive of just removing a lane on the north quays in it's entirety and giving it over to pedestrians, narrowing the remaining lane and resurfacing the whole area to single level with a heavier tactile material for the traffic lane (increases the in-car noise and encourages slower driving, allegedly). Route the buses down the Luas line, or via Manor Street towards O'Connell Street.

The north quays has the potential to be a wonderful riverside amenity, and the fact that it remains an "important traffic artery" is an embarrassment that highlights how utterly poorly we have used our public spaces.

Tenzor07

gadetra wrote: »

I actually think cycling the quays isn't that bad..

For a bike-user the quays have many hazards, bus's swinging in and out of stops, taxi's pulling in suddenly, pedestrians cross en-masse once no cars are coming..

Speed is also an issue, is the "30kph" limit still in place? When my Garmin tells me I'm doing 30kph i see cars passing me going double that speed..

rollingscone

dave_o_brien wrote: »

For what it's worth, I'd be supportive of just removing a lane on the north quays in it's entirety and giving it over to pedestrians, narrowing the remaining lane and resurfacing the whole area to single level with a heavier tactile material for the traffic lane (increases the in-car noise and encourages slower driving, allegedly). Route the buses down the Luas line, or via Manor Street towards O'Connell Street.

The north quays has the potential to be a wonderful riverside amenity, and the fact that it remains an "important traffic artery" is an embarrassment that highlights how utterly poorly we have used our public spaces.

Spoken like a true architect...as read by someone who has read a lot of Urban sociology :0

@Gadetra, I commute at about 30kph on the GC cycle lane and find it manageable. It does have a lot of idiots psi though.

@Orion, The reason scobies have left Dublin bikes largely alone is because they're so sturdy it's easier to just burn someone's car.

buffalo

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Speed is also an issue, is the "30kph" limit still in place? When my Garmin tells me I'm doing 30kph i see cars passing me going double that speed..

30kph zone doesn't apply to the quays, apart from two sets of two just west of O'Connell St.

Idleater

buffalo wrote: »

For me, it's not so much about the specific facility, but more of a general push to make cycling 'normal'.

This.

This facility is not to push cycle commuters out of the way of vehicular commuters, it's about general bicycle access in the city center, for everyone.

II've partaken in commute time cycling in Copenhagen and a few Dutch towns, and there are the equivalent of traffic jams for bikes.

Remember the humorous bill board "you're not in traffic, you are traffic".

The more that cycling embraces what it used to be, just another form of travel, the more accessible it becomes. But in order to achieve Copenhagen levels of accessibility and normalisation, we need it to be accessible to as many people as possible.

Lumen

Idleater wrote: »

I've partaken in commute time cycling in Copenhagen and a few Dutch towns, and there are the equivalent of traffic jams for bikes.

I don't want traffic jams for bikes. Half the reason I commute by bike is that I can do 15km in 35 minutes through traffic.

The current system is entirely fair. If you're a whiny pampered wimp*, sit in your box and enjoy jau doofy or whatever in the 90 minutes it takes to crawl to work through traffic. If you can be arsed to learn to ride a bike properly and deal with mixed traffic, enjoy the freedom to get to work quickly.

I don't want the system re-engineered so that the same set of whiny pampered wimps can then hold me up on my way to work on their stupid slow bicycles.

(* I realise there are people who are not physically able to cycle because they have some sort of disability, but they're a tiny minority)

Chips Lovell

I don't think segregated infrastructure normalises cycling. If anything, it reinforces the incorrect perception that cycling is dangerous and cyclists need to be protected from other traffic.

Johnny Jukebox

Lumen wrote: »

I don't want traffic jams for bikes. Half the reason I commute by bike is that I can do 15km in 35 minutes through traffic.

The current system is entirely fair. If you're a whiny pampered wimp*, sit in your box and enjoy jau doofy or whatever in the 90 minutes it takes to crawl to work through traffic. If you can be arsed to learn to ride a bike properly and deal with mixed traffic, enjoy the freedom to get to work quickly.

I don't want the system re-engineered so that the same set of whiny pampered wimps can then hold me up on my way to work on their stupid slow bicycles.

(* I realise there are people who are not physically able to cycle because they have some sort of disability, but they're a tiny minority)

Unless you count obesity as a disability and then they become the majority...

Caliden

As a motorist, I for one would be in favour of a congestion charge in addition to these bike lane changes so long as there is an alternative. Increased commuter services, larger car parks, Dublin west Luas line

idiottje

My take on this. I do support it, but I can cycle into work, and don't have to use the Quays. Planners in the past have looked at the issue in terms of how many cars we can get down here, as opposed to how many people can we get down here. The car is the current solution for many as public transport (park and ride facilities, etc) not only in Dublin, but also in the commuter belt are nonexistent. I feel that the long term (10/20 years) plan should be to make the city centre, Hueston down, and between the canals car free, apart from public transport (including taxis), with allotted times for deliveries. Dublin as a city is small, and relatively flat. There is no need for the city to be so reliant on private car ownership.
I know that there is a lot of investment needed regarding public transport, that is effective, and that it will take time, in conjunction with park and ride further out, but Dublin could be more attractive for people to live and shop in, and be more vibrant if the cars were simply removed. Other cities in Europe are doing this, and footfall in City Centre has gone up, not down, and people are happier to come into the city centre than out of town shopping centres.
Regarding the lane, it is a step along the path. There are plenty of people from Lucan/Palmerstown, etc use that route as well as the people from Castleknock/Blanch. It will force them to reconsider if they 100% need to take that journey by car, which should lead to not only more cyclists, but more people on public transport, meaning profits go up, which should (unless there is brown paper envelopes) lead to more investment in public transport. It is a harsh thing to do, but maybe a bit of behaviour modification is the only thing that is going to work here.
Rant over. I'll get my coat.

Tenzor07

Oscar Gateaux wrote: »

I don't think segregated infrastructure normalises cycling. If anything, it reinforces the incorrect perception that cycling is dangerous and cyclists need to be protected from other traffic.

Is segregated not what there is now? Currently, the primary aim in the design of any of the dis-jointed cycle paths around the city is to remove bike-users from the road and thus out of the way of the motor-vehicle?

So what we need is an integrated cycle infrastructure with raised kerbs, direct routes, bicycle specific traffic light signals?

Chips Lovell

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Is segregated not what there is now?

Not really, the lanes there currently are painted on the road and you can easily move in and out of them from the regular traffic lanes. I don't feel the need for them, but I don't think they do that much harm either.

Tenzor07

Oscar Gateaux wrote: »

Not really, the lanes there currently are painted on the road and you can easily move in and out of them from the regular traffic lanes. I don't feel the need for them, but I don't think they do that much harm either.

True, there is a lot of that, sometimes i feel better about the painted line as it serves as a reminder to drivers that they should give more space...

Though we have a lot of off-road segregated stuff, fairview cycle path(disaster), marlay park/grange road cycle path, the cycle-path around by the O2/East wall road, sections on the Malahide road particularly by roundabouts which divert you off to the side roads almost...

Idleater

Lumen wrote: »

I don't want traffic jams for bikes...

I don't want the system re-engineered so that the same set of whiny pampered wimps can then hold me up on my way to work on their stupid slow bicycles.

My point albeit slightly hidden or badly explained, wasn't that you now must commute using the new infrastructure, more that there is an accessible infrastructure in place for anyone wishing to use it.

My point explicitly stated that the new infrastructure should be designed to be accessible to everyone, to make a city accessible for people to use bikes as a mode of transport, not just a realm of the enlightened few who brave the busses trucks et al on the quays.

Chips Lovell

Yes, the off-road stuff is usually worse.

magicbastarder

will cyclists on the south quays be shunted onto the north quays now?
what's to stop you continuing to cycle down the south quays anyway?

Chips Lovell

Nothing. You're not obliged to use cycle lanes.