Spain vs Chile - 8pm (BBC1 & RTE2)

Oat23

shamrock55 wrote: »

Im glad spain are gone, they were embaressing to watch useless bunch of pre maddonnas,

Prima donna.

Pre-madonna would be something that happened before the singer Madonna was born (c.1876).
-

Aidric

Out on a wimper which is both a surprise and disappointment. Dodgy keeping aside they were pretty rudderless when going behind.

McGrath5

The end of an era.

Over the past 6 years Spain certainly set a benchmark for success that I doubt we will be seeing anytime soon again.

Bacchus

mike65 wrote: »

So then, too early for the "Are Spain and De Bosque Done" thread?

What'd be the point. It's an open and shut case.

Spain need new ideas cos they still have the players.

HalloweenJack

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Fabregas, a fantastic player but a divisive figure at the club, has been removed. Puyol is gone. Valdes is gone. Xavi, the heartbeat of the team, is on hos way out it seems, don't be surprised if Alves goes, possibly with one of Pedro or Sanchez. Deadweight will likely be moved on too. While, by the end of the summer, 8 players are hoped to be introduced to the squad. Rakitic is in, Delofeu and Rafinha Alcantara will also be added to the first team, 5 more players to come possibly and you will likely see Adama, Munir or Samper play more first team football.

Lucho hasn't been there long but it's been decisive, much as Pep was when he arrived. That you haven't even noticed the evolution take place tells me that it's being efficiently carried out.

Most of that was already in motion before Tata even left. Let's see the players he brings in and the style he gets them playing before talking about the evolution.

Andersonisgod

ceegee wrote: »

5 players POSSIBLY coming in isnt an evolution. The spine of their team is on the way out and wont be easily replaced

8 players. With key players like Valdes (the number 1 goalkeeper throughout this period) Alves (one of Pep's first signings and undisputed first choice right back), Puyol (club captain and leader), Xavi (vice captain, leader and the hub of the team), Fabregas (highly rated, but ultimately problematic playmaker), and one of Pedro or Sanchez. If that isn't evolution, perhaps even bordering on revolution, then I don't know what is.

Timmyctc

Thought I'd be happy seeing Spain collapse like this, given how much I hate their abysmal sportsmanship, however, Chile are equally bad in that regard so I'd be happy to see Chile get schooled in the next round.

kevpants

McGrath5 wrote: »

The end of an era.

Over the past 6 years Spain certainly set a benchmark for success that I doubt we will be seeing anytime soon again.

Here's hoping they go back to being perennial underachievers. That sh1t was hilarious. Would be even more hilarious if it was the encore to their tika-taka bullsh1t.

kryogen

Andersonisgod wrote: »

8 players. With key players like Valdes (the number 1 goalkeeper throughout this period) Alves (one of Pep's first signings and undisputed first choice right back), Puyol (club captain and leader), Xavi (vice captain, leader and the hub of the team), Fabregas (highly rated, but ultimately problematic playmaker), and one of Pedro or Sanchez. If that isn't evolution, perhaps even bordering on revolution, then I don't know what is.

Devolution

Hitchens

kevpants wrote: »

Would be even more hilarious if it was the encore to their tika-taka bullsh1t.

ya can't bate the long ball

IRISHSPORTSGUY

Xavi was the fulcrum behind tika taka, it's very core. When you don't have a freak like that in your team with a mind like a protractor it's ineffective in my eyes. He was the most important player in this team by far

Dempsey

Andersonisgod wrote: »

8 players. With key players like Valdes (the number 1 goalkeeper throughout this period) Alves (one of Pep's first signings and undisputed first choice right back), Puyol (club captain and leader), Xavi (vice captain, leader and the hub of the team), Fabregas (highly rated, but ultimately problematic playmaker), and one of Pedro or Sanchez. If that isn't evolution, perhaps even bordering on revolution, then I don't know what is.

Its neither, its just a high turnover of aging players.

ceegee

Andersonisgod wrote: »

8 players. With key players like Valdes (the number 1 goalkeeper throughout this period) Alves (one of Pep's first signings and undisputed first choice right back), Puyol (club captain and leader), Xavi (vice captain, leader and the hub of the team), Fabregas (highly rated, but ultimately problematic playmaker), and one of Pedro or Sanchez. If that isn't evolution, perhaps even bordering on revolution, then I don't know what is.

Its regression, not evolution.

Until their replacements prove themselves adequate then the club hasnt evolved, merely declined

Fuhrer

Why was Fabregas so problematic at Barcelona?

Andersonisgod

Dempsey wrote: »

Its neither, its just a high turnover of aging players.

....the evolution of the first team at the club. Anyway I won't argue semantics because such niggling based on words is ridiculous.

Nuri Sahin

BOHSBOHS

sweet chile play lol

GavRedKing

gandalf wrote: »

Surprised at how bad Spain have been. The guy in work who drew them might actually win the worst team prize.

I wonder what the odds were on them being elimated first was?

Australia were eliminated first no?

Dempsey

Andersonisgod wrote: »

....the evolution of the first team at the club. Anyway I won't argue semantics because such niggling based on words is ridiculous.

I think you should look up what words mean before you use them

Sanity_Saviour

Washington Irving wrote: »

We haven't seen a title defence this weak since Manchester United 13/14.

Yeah Spain really slipped up there.

Am I doing it right?

Seaneh

Amazing.
Delighted Spain and their sterile, boring, uninspired "tiki-taka" crap are going home early.

Seaneh

GavRedKing wrote: »

Australia were eliminated first no?

Australia scored more goals.

ceegee

GavRedKing wrote: »

Australia were eliminated first no?

Nope, had spain won, australia could have still got through. Technically they both went out at the same time

Seaneh

Dempsey wrote: »

I think you should look up what words mean before you use them

He's just finished his junior cert, give him a chance.

shadowcomplex

GavRedKing wrote: »

Australia were eliminated first no?

No, if Spain had beaten Chile. Australia could have qualified if they had beaten spain in their 3rd game and Holland beat Chile

SlickRic

Andersonisgod wrote: »

8 players. With key players like Valdes (the number 1 goalkeeper throughout this period) Alves (one of Pep's first signings and undisputed first choice right back), Puyol (club captain and leader), Xavi (vice captain, leader and the hub of the team), Fabregas (highly rated, but ultimately problematic playmaker), and one of Pedro or Sanchez. If that isn't evolution, perhaps even bordering on revolution, then I don't know what is.

I love your assumption that it's all going to be glorious.

bravo.

8 new players, many of them replacing the spine of one of the greatest teams in history, lead by Luis Enrique who has done little of note, and you've made it sound like it'll be smooth as silk.

good luck with that.

Too Tough To Die

Seaneh wrote: »

Amazing.
Delighted Spain and their sterile, boring, uninspired "tiki-taka" crap are going home early.

Uninspired? If the technical proficiency required to carry off that style of football at the level they did to such devastating effect doesn't inspire you then i don't know what will.

Andersonisgod

Dempsey wrote: »

I think you should look up what words mean before you use them

I think your argument that replacing key players, which, in an effort to help you, I've already outlined, with 8 new players, included 2 from the academy and the hiring of a young coach who was a player and B team coach isn't evolution when the club is taking the tiki taka ideals of the most successful era in the club's history and beginning to build a new squad on that premise but, obviously with tweaks (such as the pursuit of a number 9) then I don't know what constitutes evolution in a football club unless you want these new Barca players to grow extra thumbs or something.

But if I ever do need assistance with my vocabulary I'll be sure to contact you.

Cienciano

Bacchus wrote: »

RTE panel... "Sad day" WTF! You adapt and grow or you fall by the side. Spain looked to have bought into the idea that they just had to turn up to win. They played terrible football and the better teams won. This is what the WC is about. "Sad day" pffft I'm sure the Chileans don't see it that way.

Brady was always of the opinion "if you don't like spains style of play, you're not a football fan". Made me dislike them more, nothing worse than being told you have to like something.
Have to say, delighted they're gone. Tiki taka was a load of ****, glad it's gone.

Andersonisgod

SlickRic wrote: »

I love your assumption that it's all going to be glorious.

bravo.

8 new players, many of them replacing the spine of one of the greatest teams in history, lead by Luis Enrique who has done little of note, and you've made it sound like it'll be smooth as silk.

good luck with that.

They said the same thing about Pep. I'm confident.

bucketybuck

Andersonisgod wrote: »

But if I ever do need assistance with my vocabulary I'll be sure to contact you.

May give him a bell then because you still don't know what evolution means.

Hitchens

why does Bill keep saying that it's sad to see Spain out of the WC?

mikeym

Poor old Espanna!

Wish we had them in the qualifying group for the Euros

Andersonisgod

bucketybuck wrote: »

May give him a bell then because you still don't know what evolution means.

Obviously I'm on the edge of my rather comfortable seat wondering what evolution could mean in regards a first team squad at a professional football club so please, by all means, do relieve me of this terrible suspense and provide the definition with an example please.

Dempsey

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I think your argument that replacing key players, which, in an effort to help you, I've already outlined, with 8 new players, included 2 from the academy and the hiring of a young coach who was a player and B team coach isn't evolution when the club is taking the tiki taka ideals of the most successful era in the club's history and beginning to build a new squad on that premise but, obviously with tweaks (such as the pursuit of a number 9) then I don't know what constitutes evolution in a football club unless you want these new Barca players to grow extra thumbs or something.

But if I ever do need assistance with my vocabulary I'll be sure to contact you.

You do waffle on and on

Its quite simple

Evolution: A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.

That doesnt happen when you gut a squad of players. You are denial if you think that is the case. Its a cyclic process that has been going on since the invention of the sport that doesn't signal nor guarantee improvement over what has gone before.

Diabhal Beag

This will hit Graham Hunter hard. Poor ladeen.

Seaneh

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

Uninspired? If the technical proficiency required to carry off that style of football at the level they did to such devastating effect doesn't inspire you then i don't know what will.

Bore the other team into submission with sideways and backwards passes, never risk playing the ball forward until it's a foregone conclusion, never try anything inventive, just sideways passes for 89 minutes per game.

It's boring, it's sterile and it's un-inventive and it's been found out for the ****e that it is, thank christ.

ShiverinEskimo

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Obviously I'm on the edge of my rather comfortable seat wondering what evolution could mean in regards a first team squad at a professional football club so please, by all means, do relieve me of this terrible suspense and provide the definition with an example please.

Evolution is based on the progress and improvement on a species.

Losing the core of a team that's dominated European football for half a decade and replacing them with unproven youngsters is not evolution - it's regression, however temporary.

Don't take my word for it though, look it up in the thesaurus you evidently keep in close proximity to your electronic personal internet viewing device.

Too Tough To Die

Seaneh wrote: »

Bore the other team into submission with sideways and backwards passes, never risk playing the ball forward until it's a foregone conclusion, never try anything inventive, just sideways passes for 89 minutes per game.

It's boring, it's sterile and it's inventive and it's been found out for the ****e that it is, thank christ.

Found out?

Lol, are you seriously saying that?

DerekDGoldfish

The first casualty of the poor Spanish performance, Juan Carlos I of Spain has resigned as King.

The Showstopper

Amazing the hatred some people seem to have for Spain. And for those calling the Spanish style boring you probably are watching the wrong sport tbh given what they have achieved playing with that style. I'm not saying it's the 'right' way to play the game or any nonsense like that but surely there should be some level of admiration for this Spain team.

However as is the case with all great teams in sport their run must come to end, just a shame it had to happen in the manner which it did.

Seaneh

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

Found out?

Lol, are you seriously saying that?

In European club football for the last two years and in international football since the end of the last Euros, yup, found out, nullified and surpassed.

Tiki-taka is dead.

Too Tough To Die

Seaneh wrote: »

In European club football for the last two years and in international football since the end of the last Euros, yup, found out, nullified and surpassed.

Tiki-taka is dead.

So that whole era was merely a fluke?

Perhaps what has been found out is Xavi's importance to that style of football seeing as the demise of both era's seem to be coinciding with what is effectively his retirement.

Hank Scorpio

What about the doping allegations that came around in 2012, weird timing

Seaneh

Nope, other teams have just realise that the way NOT to defend is to sit back and let them come at you.

Press high, play at a high tempo and don't give them space and they cack themselves, especially with dross like Pique and Alba in defence.

Seaneh

nuxxx wrote: »

What about the doping allegations that came around in 2012, weird timing

Operación Puerto implicated Barcelona massively but the prosecutors and the judge decided it was "outside the scope of the trial" to investigate so the evidence is buried. Absolute farce of a decision.

delw

Didn't expect Spain to do to well this world cup but to be dumped out after two games, wow :eek:

Too Tough To Die

Seaneh wrote: »

Nope, other teams have just realise that the way NOT to defend is to sit back and let them come at you.

Press high, play at a high tempo and don't give them space and they cack themselves, especially with dross like Pique and Alba in defence.

High tempo and don't give them space! Genius. Why didn't some master tactician come up with that sooner?

eagle eye

Well thats the end of one of the greatest international teams in history. I loved to watch them when they were at their best.

The most important players are gone now. Xavi looks like he has reached the end of the road, Puyol has already gone and Casillas is finished too I think. Those three for me were the key components in that side.

I've no doubt though that Spain will be back and competitive in four years time. All you have to do is look at the younger players like De Gea, Javi Martinez, Azpilicueta, Jordi Alba, Busquets, Koke, Mata and Costa who have now experienced a World Cup. Then you look at the younger players who weren't even there like Moreno, Carvajal, Inigo Martinez, Bernat, Thiago Alcantara, Isco, Iturraspe, Ander Herrera, Illarramendi, Deulofeu, Muniain, Morata and Jese and there are more and you just know they are going to be strong at the next World Cup. They have almost always been strong but there was such pressure on them because they had not won it. Now there is a different type of pressure on these young men and which is to match the accomplishments of a previous team. Its a lot different and it won't be easy but they will always have the players to be seriously competitive.

Andersonisgod

Dempsey wrote: »

You do waffle on and on

Its quite simple

Evolution: A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.

That doesnt happen when you gut a squad of players. You are denial if you think that is the case. Its a cyclic process that has been going on since the invention of the sport that doesn't signal nor guarantee improvement over what has gone before.

Oh no, I'm intrigued and thus I will reply to your comment.

More complex or better. Not "more complex and better." If you take what is generally considered to be the beginning of tiki taka, that being the period after Spain's elimination at World Cup 2006 up to their Euro 2008 victory under Luis Aragones. The original shape started out as something resembling a 4-4-2, with Villa and Torres more often than not being the two strikers in tandem. 4-4-2 I think we can all agree has been the default formation in football in the western hemisphere for quite some time, I'd go into it a bit more but I think most of us have read "Inverting The Pyramid" so I feel no need to re-hash facts. Even if you don't agree that 4-4-2 isn't the dominate formation you can't deny that for that last 15-20 years it's been one of the pre-dominant formations in football, as such, it's very basic. Most Sunday league teams will play it, you will often see it used in the Premier League. Of course it's just a shape and movements of that shape and how the players operating in it are told to play deviate. But, at it's core, 4-4-2 is basic.

Guardiola's opening season as Barcelona coach. A student of Johan Cruyff, the embodiment of the beautiful 1992 European Champions side, he will utilise this possession based philosophy but take it on even further, developing different shapes, movements, strategies and ultimately differing playing styles for this philosophy, thus evolution. His first season he sets up in a 4-3-3, Messi, Eto'o and Henry are his regular front 3. Eto'o, a striker who plays on the shoulder, and Messi and Henry playing as inverted wingers, or inside forwards if you want to be more technical.

Guardiola's second season see's Eto'o leave and a target man, Ibrahimovic, brought in. Ultimately the ploy fails, Barcelona win the league but Ibrahimovic's contributions don't measure up to expectations. There are issues with him occupying space in a side that is becoming increasingly reliant on Messi. In any case, Guardiola has attempted to evolve the playing style, while keeping the core basic of tiki taka he has tried to find more complex solutions to, what he sees as problems for the side and he wishes to avoid stagnation and becoming predictable.

Guardiola in later seasons will dabble with 3 at the back, he will introduce Villa as an inside forward, he will introduce Sanchez as a diagonal running threat from the flank and, most famously, he will develop Messi as his false 9. All the time the side is changing, morphing and evolving. From first season to last the shape of the side, the actual implementation of the philosophy (though the core of the philosophy does not change) and many of the personnel implementing Guardiola's ideas (which, in itself will naturally bring about a change) have changed. Guardiola has continuously evolved the squad while not up-heaving personnel or core ideas each season.

Now onto Lucho. The squad isn't necessarily being gutted nor is the core philosophy changing, it is simply undergoing complex changes. The addition of a recognised centre back at the heart of the defence to partner Pique. The introduction of Rakitic and Rafinha add a much more physical element to the midfield, something Guardiola changed when he opted for Busquets over Yaya Toure at the base of the midfield and the gradual marginalizing of Seydou Keita. The pursuit of a target man to play as a number 9. All deviations, all changes, all evolution in the ultimate possession-obsessed framework.

Nobody said it would be better, obviously that can't be said one way or another as Lucho's team have yet to play a match, friendly or otherwise. However the evolution of the squad under Guardiola, Tata (for better or worse) and now Lucho is clear to see. I highlight this evolution as I believe that the changes that Lucho and the club are now making will bring Barcelona closer to what it was under Pep, rather than drifting further and further away as they were under Tata.

I hope this has helped to clarify my position and reasoning. No problem.