Foal killed in Galway

grosser

Roquentin wrote: »

because when you educate children, you teach them empathy and when you teach them that, they may just think twice about killing animals.

that doesn't answer the question. how do you deal with the aspect of educating them in this? lots of kids get the same education and aren't out there flogging animals. I understand education starts at home and its the parents that should be doing this but that isn't the case.

enforcement of laws that actually protect the animals by groups willing to do their jobs is whats needed for now, combined with groups going around to schools and communities educating both the parents and kids alike.( of course where does the money come from for such a venture?)

there are multiple issues at play here(legal,social, financial etc) which led to this incident and would all have to be addressed.education alone wont change it.

Roquentin

galwaygirl08 wrote: »

Yes it boils down to education and teaching right from wrong, but sadly we all were not reared in the same manner. Some people live their lives thinking they are above the law, with absolutely no fear. They do as they please and if you dare step in their way then you will sadly deal with the consequences.

Real animal lovers, especially if horses are a huge part of their 'culture', should not inflict cruelty on them as we witness almost every single day in our housing estates.

I agree. But this behavior is built from childhood. Putting them in jail or fining them is a short term solution to a long term problem, as some other kid, reared in the same conditions will do the same crime in dublin or limerick or wherever.

To solve it long term would involve changing the dynamics of the home and also the school place.

The problem is that the parents mistreat their kids and then these kids when they grow up mistreat their own kids and the cycle continues.

yes better prosecution will minimize the damage but not remove it completely.

Roquentin

grosser wrote: »

that doesn't answer the question. how do you deal with the aspect of educating them in this? lots of kids get the same education and aren't out there flogging animals. I understand education starts at home and its the parents that should be doing this but that isn't the case.

enforcement of laws that actually protect the animals by groups willing to do their jobs is whats needed for now, combined with groups going around to schools and communities educating both the parents and kids alike.( of course where does the money come from for such a venture?)

there are multiple issues at play here(legal,social, financial etc) which led to this incident and would all have to be addressed.education alone wont change it.

If you educate children both at home and in school and teach them morals and how to be respectable citizens, they should grow up to behave accordingly. You will always get a bad apple regardless, but it would minimize it.

A lot of the traveller way of life is rotten. The fathers are bullies who beat the wives and children and thus lay the foundations for the cycle to continue.

I agree. Better legislation should be in place. No question and i would be all for it. But i also think the traveller way of life would have to be changed as well.

Discodog

Roquentin wrote: »

because when you educate children, you teach them empathy and when you teach them that, they may just think twice about killing animals.

Do we really have to teach empathy? A child or adult knows how it would feel to be beaten or starved.

The bigger danger is not teaching consequences. If a child tortures a horse & gets away with it then what's to stop it doing the same to another child.

Numerous studies have shoe the link between early animal abuse& future violence.

As for the parents they should be made criminally responsible for the actions of their children until they are adults.

Discodog

grosser wrote: »

that doesn't answer the question. how do you deal with the aspect of educating them in this? lots of kids get the same education and aren't out there flogging animals. I understand education starts at home and its the parents that should be doing othis but that isn't the case.

enforcement of laws that actually protect the animals by groups willing to do their jobs is whats needed for now, combined with groups going around to schools and communities educating both the parents and kids alike.( of course where does the money come from for such a venture?)

there are multiple issues at play here(legal,social, financial etc) which led to this incident and would all have to be addressed.education alone wont change it.

Exactly. The priority is to end the suffering. The next priority is to ensure that those who cause it don't get a second opportunity.

Discodog

Roquentin wrote: »

If you educate children both at home and in school and teach them morals and how to be respectable citizens, they should grow up to behave accordingly. You will always get a bad apple regardless, but it would minimize it.

A lot of the traveller way of life is rotten. The fathers are bullies who beat the wives and children and thus lay the foundations for the cycle to continue.

I agree. Better legislation should be in place. No question and i would be all for it. But i also think the traveller way of life would have to be changed as well.

Do you really think that what a teacher tells them will take precedence over what their families tell them?

Roquentin

Do we really have to teach empathy? A child or adult knows how it would feel to be beaten or starved.

Children dont know anything at such an age. The learn from observing their parents/guardians. You go over to china and they torture dogs and eat them. Now if mammy and daddy do it, the child then learns that he can do it. You add in the sense of entitlement that travellers possess and they feel they can do anything as kids. They then grow up with complete apathy for people and nature.

You raise them in a proper home, teach them empathy and compassion and they become decent citizens.

The bigger danger is not teaching consequences. If a child tortures a horse & gets away with it then what's to stop it doing the same to another child.

That is true. The difference was that when we were young and did something unjust (not on the same level as foal beating) we were told it was wrong and told not to do it again. When the kids who beat the foal went home, daddy probably gave him a pat on the back and said he was a good guy.

Numerous studies have shoe the link between early animal abuse& future violence.

Yes no doubt, they start with animals and move on. But lots of serial killers come from privileged backgrounds if you are thinking that criminals come from impoverished backgrounds. The most infamous serial killer in the UK was a doctor. Ted Bundy had a degree in psychology. The traveller adults are also cute. They rarely trouble people other than rob them. Its part of the problem in that they know they can abuse animals and get away with it. Most of the criminals walking out of the courts are not travellers.

As for the parents they should be made criminally responsible for the actions of their children until they are adults

They should and that would implore them to teach their children ethics and so on.

Roquentin

Discodog wrote: »

Do you really think that what a teacher tells them will take precedence over what their families tell them?

I said they have to be both educated at school and at home. Both. As a person you mirror your parents.

Discodog

Roquentin wrote: »

I said they have to be both educated at school and at home. Both. As a person you mirror your parents.

I know a primary school teacher who won't neuter his cats because it's not natural. He also doesn't feed them much because they might not hunt.

I have tried giving advice to this type of community. They either pretend to agree to get rid of you or they tell you not to interfere & that it's their culture. Either way nothing changes.

I don't believe that the parents gave the kids a pat on the back. But the "community" will close ranks to protect them.

Normal society would report those involved in cruelty.

Roquentin

Discodog wrote: »

I know a primary school teacher who won't neuter his cats because it's not natural. He also doesn't feed them much because they might not hunt.

I have tried giving advice to this type of community. They either pretend to agree to get rid of you or they tell you not to interfere & that it's their culture. Either way nothing changes.

I don't believe that the parents gave the kids a pat on the back. But the "community" will close ranks to protect them.

Normal society would report those involved in cruelty.

That is part of my point. That they have a method of living keeps the cycle going on and in order to arrest the violence, the system on the whole needs to be augmented.

No question i am all for better legislation with regards animal welfare, but the traveller community will continue their abuse and violence for the foreseeable future, because their style of living is the way it is.

My point is that their way of life needs to be completely overhauled. But that wont happen because only they can change themselves and they dont want to change.

The government should try and enforce them to live better though.

Dutchess

Another issue with law enforcement is that the only punishments are either fees, or prison. A person like anyone on this thread who lives in normal society with jobs and a reputation to uphold (and a moral compass that likely stops us from committing crimes beyond speeding in the car in the first place) will pay a fee because a stint in prison will affect our current and future lives. Not so with those of the "community". They will not pay fees, and sending them to prison will not scare them. They probably already have a few buddies in there and will just do their time in relative Western prison luxury and will then go back to their lives which - due to already not being part of the social system with regular jobs and such -remain completely unaffected and they only cost the State money.
Correct me if there is already, but I would heavily be in favour of a law where, if one commits a crime, any Social Welfare payments are promptly cut off. "Can't play by the rules? Off to fend for yourself".

I am still not sure how many kids were involved but I find it hard to believe that there would be more than one or two completely in favour of torturing an animal to death. That level of mental problem is pretty "special". Theorising here, there is probably one alphakid, a ringleader of sorts who is an actual full fledged psychopath in the making who came up with this. Likely this kid would be a bit of a bully to other kids. He/she presents this idea of attacking the foal to the rest and -scared to be labelled a coward/sissy/whatever or get physically targeted themselves- they all go along with it.

Along with teaching empathy and humane treatment of animals, I would try to encourage children to be assertive when it comes to peer pressure. There might be perfectly good kids doing bad things because in certain areas of the city - and in some cases that might be the only place a family can afford to live- it's easy to fall in with a rough crowd and even easier to go along with that crowd to protect yourself. Nobody wants to be the first to say: that's wrong. But if people/kids pulled together in standing up to a bully, they might just get a result.

Regarding keeping the issue alive, good auld Galway is going to be in the spotlight for the next month, with the Film Fleadh, Galway INTERNATIONAL Arts Festival and last but not least: horse lover's Race Week coming up.

I would be in favour of staging a protest of some kind of public display during this time, Race Week seems especially good because of the horsy reasons.

Discodog

Can someone post links to the relevant Facebook pages. There is another way of tackling this. If people could pass through the area, take photos & location details, we could build a database of horses. We could log their movement, & identify them.

Then we could log all calls, emails etc to the authorities & relate them to the right horse. So, for example, we could complain that horse number 123 was reported x amount of times. Most horses will have identifiable features.

By making this public the "owners" will be aware that they are being monitored. I think that a few here tried something similar before.

Roquentin

Discodog wrote: »

Can someone post links to the relevant Facebook pages. There is another way of tackling this. If people could pass through the area, take photos & location details, we could build a database of horses. We could log their movement, & identify them.

Then we could log all calls, emails etc to the authorities & relate them to the right horse. So, for example, we could complain that horse number 123 was reported x amount of times. Most horses will have identifiable features.

By making this public the "owners" will be aware that they are being monitored. I think that a few here tried something similar before.

ideally this plan would be done by the minister for agriculture. It needs to be legal. Id get the councillor in on it

Discodog

Roquentin wrote: »

ideally this plan would be done by the minister for agriculture. It needs to be legal. Id get the councillor in on it

No. We need to do it because no one else will. You can't complain effectively without evidence.

Dutchess

Discodog wrote: »

Can someone post links to the relevant Facebook pages. There is another way of tackling this. If people could pass through the area, take photos & location details, we could build a database of horses. We could log their movement, & identify them.

Then we could log all calls, emails etc to the authorities & relate them to the right horse. So, for example, we could complain that horse number 123 was reported x amount of times. Most horses will have identifiable features.

By making this public the "owners" will be aware that they are being monitored. I think that a few here tried something similar before.

Not sure what you mean by the relevant Facebook pages. I know protesting was mentioned on here: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Justice-for-Irelands-horses/1439605252921121
There is also https://www.facebook.com/forgottenhorsesireland and the people that actually rescued some horses from outside my workplace: https://www.facebook.com/EGAR.ie

There is a need to be careful when it comes to showing your face monitoring "their" horses.
I want to scream sometimes because it seems there is such heavy emphasis on working with them because against them makes it worse. Ban sulky racing? It will go underground. Cut off their dole? They will start committing more crime. So is there no choice but to reward bad behaviour?

Roquentin

Discodog wrote: »

No. We need to do it because no one else will. You can't complain effectively without evidence.

My point is that you have to be careful because there is grounds for litigation in posting horses who belong to someone on the net.

I am pretty sure you cant go around saying Dicky O Brien owns this horse and look at how he has abused him/her. You will get in trouble if you do that.

Thats why ideally the agriculture office would set up its own data base to avoid litigation

TristanPeter

I don't think this would apply if the horses are being kept illegally on public lands. One of the main excuses the GSPCA/Gardai use to validate their inaction is that they cannot find the owners.

Any ideas as to how an online database can be set up to track this?

Discodog

Roquentin wrote: »

My point is that you have to be careful because there is grounds for litigation in posting horses who belong to someone on the net.

I am pretty sure you cant go around saying Dicky O Brien owns this horse and look at how he has abused him/her. You will get in trouble if you do that.

Thats why ideally the agriculture office would set up its own data base to avoid litigation

Tristan is right. You can photograph pretty much anything provided that it's in areas with public access.

In any event no one would be naming owners

Discodog

TristanPeter wrote: »

I don't think this would apply if the horses are being kept illegally on public lands. One of the main excuses the GSPCA/Gardai use to validate their inaction is that they cannot find the owners.

Any ideas as to how an online idatabase can be set up to track this?

The only way that owners might be tracked would be by surveillance like cctv.

I am not proposing identifying owners but keeping an eye on individual animals.

One advantage with the horses being on public land is that anyone can examine or photograph them.

Roquentin

Discodog wrote: »

Tristan is right. You can photograph pretty much anything provided that it's in areas with public access.

In any event no one would be naming owners

Its a grey area. I am not sure of the legality, but to be safe whether it is photographing or videoing someone, you need a consent form. Because they can either ask for you to take something down or they can go through a lawyer.

Unless the horse was in a terrible state, you need consent to post pictures/videos online.

You can take a picture of nature and so on.

Mrs OBumble

Dutchess wrote: »

I want to scream sometimes because it seems there is such heavy emphasis on working with them because against them makes it worse. Ban sulky racing? It will go underground. Cut off their dole? They will start committing more crime. So is there no choice but to reward bad behaviour?

There is plenty of evidence that getting more socially acceptable behaviour from a minority group is is best achieved by education and working with community group leaders to engage them in seeing that things are a problem and taking some ownership to fix it. Cutting off the dole, thowing "them" all in prison, taking away their horses, houses, children, whatever .. may make you feel like you're doing something, but really just creates angry, disenfranchised people who cause even more problems.




There is also the slight matter of what exactly counts as "abuse", which you will need to work out before you start any database.

I know some people who believe that the whole horse-racing industry is abusive because horses are whipped.

I know others who believe it's ok for small (define that) children to ride ponies - and I've certainly seen it happen in situations where the ponies were happy enough.

There are some privately owned fields around the city which regularly have horses in them. The horses have water and food - but are open to the public eye and visits from people passing by, and don't have indoor shelter. Is that abuse?

inisboffin

Discodog wrote: »

Tristan is right. You can photograph pretty much anything provided that it's in areas with public access.

In any event no one would be naming owners

This came up recently on Boards with regard to photographing cars. Again it was mentioned that it was a public area (I think it was in relation to illegal parking), however I believe it was decided not to show as it could be litigious to a previous owner who was not breaking the law etc.
This is possibly the case here too I'd say, at least as far as Boards is concerned?
Maybe the mods can comment.

Discodog

People seem to be seriously getting the wrong end of the stick here. Photographs would be posted on Facebook or on a Google group.

We aren't referring to fields. These horses are on public land.
The person who confirms cruelty or neglect is Vet.

Some of the posters here are imitating the Guards & the Council in that they keep trying to find reasons not to do anything.

This is why the problem exists in the first place.

Discodog

"Mrs wrote:

There is also the slight matter of what exactly counts as "abuse", which you will need to work out before you start any database.

I know some people who believe that the whole horse-racing industry is abusive because horses are whipped.

I know others who believe it's ok for small (define that) children to ride ponies - and I've certainly seen it happen in situations where the ponies were happy enough.

There are some privately owned fields around the city which regularly have horses in them. The horses have water and food - but are open to the public eye and visits from people passing by, and don't have indoor shelter. Is that abuse?

It could be, depending on the breed of horse & the weather conditions.

The law has always been incredibly clear. The new legislation has just strengthened what was there before.

The RSPCA have no problem prosecuting. The ISPCA also manage some prosecutions.
But in many cases the issue here is illegal horse ownership.
The purpose of monitoring is to provide evidence to show that the Council & Guards are not dealing with the problem.

galwaygirl08

Discodog wrote: »

Can someone post links to the relevant Facebook pages. There is another way of tackling this. If people could pass through the area, take photos & location details, we could build a database of horses. We could log their movement, & identify them.

Then we could log all calls, emails etc to the authorities & relate them to the right horse. So, for example, we could complain that horse number 123 was reported x amount of times. Most horses will have identifiable features.

By making this public the "owners" will be aware that they are being monitored. I think that a few here tried something similar before.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ban-horses-from-our-residential-areas-in-Galway-City/1472689289636178?ref_type=bookmark

Page updated daily.

Dutchess

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

There is plenty of evidence that getting more socially acceptable behaviour from a minority group is is best achieved by education and working with community group leaders to engage them in seeing that things are a problem and taking some ownership to fix it. Cutting off the dole, thowing "them" all in prison, taking away their horses, houses, children, whatever .. may make you feel like you're doing something, but really just creates angry, disenfranchised people who cause even more problems.

I am certainly not suggesting punishing every member of a community just for being born into it. Only the ones that actually break the law and can be considered a danger to society.

To me the notion that a law breaker from any background will continue to receive money from the government is absolutely ridiculous. I do understand the fear that punishing some people will turn them into more of a criminal, not less of one. But I don't think it's right that more aggressive people get treated less aggressively because society fears the consequences, there's a fear of giving people reasons to commit more crimes so the choice is to placate them into not doing this?

I'd genuinely like to see some evidence regarding a situation comparable to this, where in some cases generations of traditions can be turned around. The impression I am getting is that those who do the worst things are least open to being educated and will resist the suggestion to turn their ways around the most.

I am certainly not against the idea of educating. Certainly make it clear how living within the boundaries of the law and considering the people who live around you can only be beneficial for everyone. But I don't think education only should be the way. Criminals need to be punished, people need to know unpleasant actions have unpleasant consequences.

In relation to the monitoring:
Quoted from http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/animal_welfare_and_control/control_of_horses.html:
In some parts of the country (particularly urban areas), there are problems with horses straying, roaming, causing danger on roads and being ridden without proper restraint by underage riders. In areas where these problems exist, your local authority can name the area a "Control Area". If you own a horse and keep your horse in a Control area, you must obtain a horse licence, issued by your local authority. Failure to have a horse licence in a Control Area can mean an on-the-spot fine or it could mean that your horse will be seized and impounded.

Based on that info, Castlepark would qualify to become a control area, right? And what about the chipping law for horses born after 2009? Regardless of abuse, the owner of a chipless horse would be in breach of the law.

Is there any interest for the protest? I can understand people might not want to put their faces out there depending on where they live and such...

Don't know if it has been done or if there is even a point, but I am sending an e-mail to Simon Coveney...

Dutchess

Sorry for double posting but this is the reply I received from Ministry of Agriculture. I am not impressed. We know all of this already, legislation not being enforced is what is the issue. And sure, they know that too...

I would like to acknowledge your recent correspondence dated s"" July 2014 to Minister Simon
Coveney in relation to issues pertaining to animal welfare in Galway.

The incident regarding the burning of a foal was notified to the Galway SPCA who brought it to the
attention of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and also referred the matter to An
Garda Siochana in Galway for investigation. It is not appropriate to comment on the incident itself as
charges may be brought by the Gardai against the perpetrators.

On the general issue of animal cruelty - any incident of cruelty to any animal is unacceptable in a
civilised society. Ail owners of animals must look after animals in their care and or ownership or
indeed any animal with which they may come in contact and this can include animals in public
places. The recently introduced Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013, which strengthens the already
existing protections for animals in Irish Law and updates cruelty legislation in place since 1911,
places clear obligations to protect animals and provides for increased penalties for acts of animal
cruelty. For the first time judges will be granted specific powers to prevent persons convicted of
cruelty to, or failing to protect the welfare of animals from owning or working with animals. In order
to facilitate reporting of any incident of maltreatment or cruelty to any animal - be if a farm/nonfarm
animal or a companion animal - the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine has been
operating an Animal Welfare Helpline lo-call 1850211990 for a number of years. This enables
persons who are concerned about any issue of animal cruelty/welfare to report the matter in
confidence to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine for investigation, in conjunction
with An Garda Siochana, if appropriate.
1 hope this information is of assistance.

Roquentin

Dutchess wrote: »

I am certainly not suggesting punishing every member of a community just for being born into it. Only the ones that actually break the law and can be considered a danger to society.

To me the notion that a law breaker from any background will continue to receive money from the government is absolutely ridiculous. I do understand the fear that punishing some people will turn them into more of a criminal, not less of one. But I don't think it's right that more aggressive people get treated less aggressively because society fears the consequences, there's a fear of giving people reasons to commit more crimes so the choice is to placate them into not doing this?

I'd genuinely like to see some evidence regarding a situation comparable to this, where in some cases generations of traditions can be turned around. The impression I am getting is that those who do the worst things are least open to being educated and will resist the suggestion to turn their ways around the most.

I am certainly not against the idea of educating. Certainly make it clear how living within the boundaries of the law and considering the people who live around you can only be beneficial for everyone. But I don't think education only should be the way. Criminals need to be punished, people need to know unpleasant actions have unpleasant consequences.

In relation to the monitoring:
Quoted from http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/animal_welfare_and_control/control_of_horses.html:
In some parts of the country (particularly urban areas), there are problems with horses straying, roaming, causing danger on roads and being ridden without proper restraint by underage riders. In areas where these problems exist, your local authority can name the area a "Control Area". If you own a horse and keep your horse in a Control area, you must obtain a horse licence, issued by your local authority. Failure to have a horse licence in a Control Area can mean an on-the-spot fine or it could mean that your horse will be seized and impounded.

Based on that info, Castlepark would qualify to become a control area, right? And what about the chipping law for horses born after 2009? Regardless of abuse, the owner of a chipless horse would be in breach of the law.

Is there any interest for the protest? I can understand people might not want to put their faces out there depending on where they live and such...

Don't know if it has been done or if there is even a point, but I am sending an e-mail to Simon Coveney...

The mods point is one that i generally agree with. Putting these people in jail generally endeavors to make them more angry and frustrated.

I am all for stricter laws and better legislation with regards horses and so on. But the threat of imprisonment or fines will not eradicate this problem. In this case prison is a short term solution to a long term problem because the cycle will continue in that the next generation of kids will commit the same behaviour.

By educating the next generation both at home and school you teach the empathy, compassion and respect. That coupled with the improved law will minimize the risk of such an event happening again.

Discodog

If you are not going to have penalties like fines or prison then there is no point in having law.

If an adult batters a horse to death they should get a minimum of 3 years.

Those who keep horses illegal should be made to pay for their rehoming. The owners should be punished, not the horses.

Roquentin

Discodog wrote: »

If you are not going to have penalties like fines or prison then there is no point in having law.

If an adult batters a horse to death they should get a minimum of 3 years.

Those who keep horses illegal should be made to pay for their rehoming. The owners should be punished, not the horses.

Pardon me for being arrogant, but even with the law and ten year sentences, the jails are still full and the six o clock news is on every night. The law minimizes amoral behavior, but it will not completely remove it.

Education and legislation would have a better effect than legislation alone.