Foal killed in Galway

Discodog

Roquentin wrote: »

Pardon me for being arrogant, but even with the law and ten year sentences, the jails are still full and the six o clock news is on every night. The law minimizes amoral behavior, but it will not completely remove it.

Education and legislation would've have a better effect than legislation alone.

I agree that education is important but it's not even close to happening. When it starts it will be years before it starts having an effect. Until then animals need protecting.

Many in this community believe that the law is wrong or doesn't apply to them.

By the way do you think that humans who batter humans should avoid jail because the jails are full?

Roquentin

902 signatures. Just need 98 more. Final push

TristanPeter

This thread is just going round in circles, arguing the same points over and over again. Yes, of course education is hugely important but this could take years, even generations to take effect. Abused animals cannot wait till the people who do these things become more educated. What we need to look at now is the fact that we are ALL legally obliged to uphold the laws which are currently in place. People need to stop bringing minority groups into this issue...it should not matter a f**k who you are, where you come from etc. If you break the law you have to be willing to accept the consequences. Loads of people, not just those in minority groups, abuse animals. Arguing about education, background etc. is just an excuse to do nothing by pretending to be looking at it long term. It's like saying, let's not deal with the chronic traffic problem in Galway right now, there's no point, because we all know it's not a long term solution; instead let's continue to wait for the outer bypass to be built... because eventually, even if it continues to take years and years, this will solve everything.

We need to be proactive here and now, so stop throwing up stuff which will take years to implement, if ever even. Don't post if you can't offer anything constructive...and hypothetical arguments imo are not constructive, as in, they are not what we need right now to deal with horse neglect and abuse.

Discodog

Well said.

This is why we need evidence. If we say that the Council, Guards, GSPCA aren't doing their job then we need proof.

So, say we photograph a particular horse & report it. The authorities say they are acting on it. Then we photograph the same horse two weeks later. It can be proved that no action was taken.

Dan_Solo

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

There are some privately owned fields around the city which regularly have horses in them. The horses have water and food - but are open to the public eye and visits from people passing by, and don't have indoor shelter. Is that abuse?

I would personally say no, but then again we haven't had anybody at all here claiming legally held, healthy, well looked after horses were a cause of concern. Maybe you could point out who here has claimed your scenario constitutes abuse?

galwaygirl08

TristanPeter wrote: »

This thread is just going round in circles, arguing the same points over and over again. Yes, of course education is hugely important but this could take years, even generations to take effect. Abused animals cannot wait till the people who do these things become more educated. What we need to look at now is the fact that we are ALL legally obliged to uphold the laws which are currently in place. People need to stop bringing minority groups into this issue...it should not matter a f**k who you are, where you come from etc. If you break the law you have to be willing to accept the consequences. Loads of people, not just those in minority groups, abuse animals. Arguing about education, background etc. is just an excuse to do nothing by pretending to be looking at it long term. It's like saying, let's not deal with the chronic traffic problem in Galway right now, there's no point, because we all know it's not a long term solution; instead let's continue to wait for the outer bypass to be built... because eventually, even if it continues to take years and years, this will solve everything.

We need to be proactive here and now, so stop throwing up stuff which will take years to implement, if ever even. Don't post if you can't offer anything constructive...and hypothetical arguments imo are not constructive, as in, they are not what we need right now to deal with horse neglect and abuse.

Well said.

As you know, I have been doing my best to tackle an ongoing issue for the past 3-4 weeks now. Having been in touch with almost every single authority in question several times a week, let me tell you it is one of the most frustrating issues I've ever come across.

What residents witnessed over the past week alone has been horrendous. Never mind the weeks previous to this. I'd be here all day if I tried to explain the conversations we've had at length with these people who should be doing everything in their power to retrieve this one animal in particular from its dangerous owner. And yes, its all happening in the middle of a council estate, obvious to all.

Overall: The blame continues to be passed between all parties.
We were literally driven around the bend with lies and false promises.
The warden was 'afraid' of these people so the animal was not seized. The animal continued to suffer.
The Gardai and community Garda continually referred back to the Council & The GSPCA. It is not a priority to the Gardai let me tell you.
The council lied blatantly and never responded to urgent calls from the very beginning. This problem would not have escalated to the level it did if they had acted on their word straightaway.

The animal has not been seen for the past few days so unsure of the current situation. Hand on heart, if calls continue to be ignored, this animals fate is surely sealed. This has driven us to tears of utter frustration.

All I do know is the Council, the Gardai and the GSPCA need to come together on this issue fairly lively.
We need to start looking forward instead of going around in circles here. Its happening. And right on peoples doorsteps.
We need to work on the authorities in question and go forward from there.
In terms of education and the likes, we would need some kind of magic wand to change the attitudes of these people. It's 'tradition' for them to own these animals and whilst the law is not enforced correctly, the same behaviours will be carried forward and the poor animals will continue to suffer. End of.

Next step forward: Keep the petition going. Get in touch with any Cllr willing to tackle the matter. This issue needs to be made an overall priority to all Council members.
Perhaps a meeting will be on the cards as already suggested here, and on Facebook. All parties will have to come together and hopefully some kind of committee will be formed between them.

Mrs OBumble

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I would personally say no, but then again we haven't had anybody at all here claiming legally held, healthy, well looked after horses were a cause of concern. Maybe you could point out who here has claimed your scenario constitutes abuse?

Yes we have has someone say that there is a concern with legally held, healthy, well looked after horses.

This post refers: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90995994&postcount=262




I'm a little bemused that people think I am opposed to what posters here are doing: I've made a point of suggesting broader community groups that may be inclined to help, and linking to community groups in Ballybane and newspaper articles that give some context.

But this is not a problem which has simple solutions, and simplistic cries to enforce the laws, without understanding thy dynamics of the situation are not helpful.

Personally, if animals were systematically removed (assuming infinite resources for this), then I'd be rather concerned about the consequences for the women and children in the area.

Discodog

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Yes we have has someone say that there is a concern with legally held, healthy, well looked after horses.

This post refers: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90995994&postcount=262


Personally, if animals were systematically removed (assuming infinite resources for this), then I'd be rather concerned about the consequences for the women and children in the area.

I can't see which post you're referring to. Couldn't you of just quoted it?

The reference to women & children is inexplicable & bizarre. I would of thought that allowing people, that torture horses to death, to roam free poses a greater risk.

Discodog

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Yes we have has someone say that there is a concern with legally held, healthy, well looked after horses.

This post refers: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90995994&postcount=262


Personally, if animals were systematically removed (assuming infinite resources for this), then I'd be rather concerned about the consequences for the women and children in the area.

I can't see which post you're referring to. Couldn't you of just quoted it?

The reference to women & children is inexplicable & bizarre. I would of thought that allowing people, that torture horses to death, to roam free poses a greater risk.

Dan_Solo

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Yes we have has someone say that there is a concern with legally held, healthy, well looked after horses.

This post refers: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90995994&postcount=262

Nope. No mention of legally held well treated horses being considered as abuse there at all I'm afraid. He was very clear that he was referring to horses illegally kept on public land, which isn't the same thing at all.
Do you want to try again?

Dan_Solo

Discodog wrote: »

I can't see which post you're referring to. Couldn't you of just quoted it?

Probably would've been too obvious then that the post he was talking about didn't support his claims, so I guess not.

Dutchess

Discodog wrote: »

The reference to women & children is inexplicable & bizarre. I would of thought that allowing people, that torture horses to death, to roam free poses a greater risk.

What I am getting from that is that people in the area need something to abuse, and if there are no animals available, they will turn to the women and children. Of course in the case of the foal, it was children doing the abusing in the first place.
And this continues the notion that if criminals are stood up to by enforcement of the laws, they will just do something worse in retaliation so it's better to just let them carry on and look the other way.

I feel for galwaygirl08. I was involved in having horses removed from IDA land surrounding our office a few months ago (and some have now turned up again since last week so time to start again:rolleyes:) and the amount of effort and resilience it takes do deal with the various authorities and make them take action is astounding.

To me, what is needed is a taskforce that is not scared of dealing with agressive people because it seems to me that a lot of people currently in responsibility are. (I would be/am.)

Discodog

There are two issues & this leads to a passing of the buck.
If it's cruelty the SPCA should deal with it. If it's horse control then the Council should deal with it.

In either event the Guards take responsibility if there is a breach of law.

None of the above want the job. It needs vehicles, experienced handlers, & somewhere to take the horses.

The Council should appoint a equine welfare warden with a vehicle & horsebox. They could act as a Dog warden as the horse problem shouldn't be everyday.

So the only additional cost is a horsebox & some equine training.

Roquentin

Discodog wrote: »

There are two issues & this leads to a passing of the buck.
If it's cruelty the SPCA should deal with it. If it's horse control then the Council should deal with it.

In either event the Guards take responsibility if there is a breach of law.

None of the above want the job. It needs vehicles, experienced handlers, & somewhere to take the horses.

The Council should appoint a equine welfare warden with a vehicle & horsebox. They could act as a Dog warden as the horse problem shouldn't be everyday.

So the only additional cost is a horsebox & some equine training.

thats what i was saying a while back. Ideally this would be done by the councill on a legal basis, with the backing of the garda. Id bring in the army if it needs be.

Discodog

I have an update. The problem is that I can't quote my sources :-)

I can assure people that the GSPCA are monitoring the situation daily. But they can only get involved if a horse is being subjected to cruelty.

If you see a horse in a public place take a photograph & note the location. Send the photo & complaint to the Council. If you see the same horse photograph it again, report it & complain that nothing was done the first time.

Apparently individual horses seized are being rehomed.

There is a strong suggestion that the Council will be taking a harder line in the future.

Roquentin

Discodog wrote: »

I have an update. The problem is that I can't quote my sources :-)

I can assure people that the GSPCA are monitoring the situation daily. But they can only get involved if a horse is being subjected to cruelty.

If you see a horse in a public place take a photograph & note the location. Send the photo & complaint to the Council. If you see the same horse photograph it again, report it & complain that nothing was done the first time.

Apparently individual horses seized are being rehomed.

There is a strong suggestion that the Council will be taking a harder line in the future.

great news. make sure they are true to their word

Dutchess

Discodog wrote: »

I have an update. The problem is that I can't quote my sources :-)

I can assure people that the GSPCA are monitoring the situation daily. But they can only get involved if a horse is being subjected to cruelty.

If you see a horse in a public place take a photograph & note the location. Send the photo & complaint to the Council. If you see the same horse photograph it again, report it & complain that nothing was done the first time.

Apparently individual horses seized are being rehomed.

There is a strong suggestion that the Council will be taking a harder line in the future.

Good news, but I take an 'I'll believe it when I see it' stance.
I'm wondering what the definition of cruelty is to the GSPCA? Does someone have to be hurting the animal? Or does a lack of water in the area where it is qualify as well (it should imho)?

At work we have the issue that horses have been abandoned on surrounding land but it's not public land. IDA own it but they don't care:(

Discodog

Dutchess wrote: »

Good news, but I take an 'I'll believe it when I see it' stance.
I'm wondering what the definition of cruelty is to the GSPCA? Does someone have to be hurting the animal? Or does a lack of water in the area where it is qualify as well (it should imho)?

At work we have the issue that horses have been abandoned on surrounding land but it's not public land. IDA own it but they don't care:(

A lack of water could be an issue depending on time. If horse is tethered & the owner brings water or takes the horse to water it then it wouldn't be cruel. It depends on the overall condition of the animal.

At the recent Animal Welfare conference the Minister said that they had been adopting a soft approach to give owners a chance to make arrangements.

He said that this grace period was coming to an end & that money would be provided for Councils to implement the Act.

The IDA issue poses problems because you can't do anything without the permission of the landowner.

Dutchess

Horses were on the land before and we have seen them die so I would not expect different this time. One of them has a limp that is getting worse...
We tried working with IDA before but as the responsible people are based in the Midlands, it's easy for them to ignore.

Good to hear they are planning to end this grace period. The probability of these horses not being chipped borders on certainty so I don't see how going soft on owners is in any way right.

Roquentin

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/684/384/393/punish-the-youths-who-beat-and-burnt-a-2-week-old-foal-to-death-and-tortured-its-mother/

this is another petition. close to 6000 signatures plus the other one

Irishgoatman

Discodog wrote: »

The IDA issue poses problems because you can't do anything without the permission of the landowner.

I am fairly sure that, with Gardai present, the GSPCA can go anywhere in order to assist an animal believed to be in distress, in the same way that Guards can break into a house if they believe there is a person in distress.

Discodog

Irishgoatman wrote: »

I am fairly sure that, with Gardai present, the GSPCA can go anywhere in order to assist an animal believed to be in distress, in the same way that Guards can break into a house if they believe there is a person in distress.

Yes they can if it is a cruelty or neglect issue. I don't think that the Council can regarding horse control.

The new Animal Welfare Act does make it easier. If you see any animal that appears in distress then call the GSPCA.

Also try & monitor if anyone is visiting the animal & if there is water present. Take a photo & if possible geotag it. Send the photo to the GSPCA as it will help with identification. If you see a vehicle then note the registration number.

If you have information regarding the specific owners of any of these horses photograph the horse & forward the photo plus owner information to the GSPCA. Any information will be treated in the strictest confidence.

Irishgoatman

Discodog wrote: »

Yes they can if it is a cruelty or neglect issue. I don't think that the Council can regarding horse control.

The new Animal Welfare Act does make it easier. If you see any animal that appears in distress then call the GSPCA.

Also try & monitor if anyone is visiting the animal & if there is water present. Take a photo & if possible geotag it. Send the photo to the GSPCA as it will help with identification. If you see a vehicle then note the registration number.

If you have information regarding the specific owners of any of these horses photograph the horse & forward the photo plus owner information to the GSPCA. Any information will be treated in the strictest confidence.

I fully agree with you. I was pointing out that if animals are being ill treated/neglected then it doesn't matter where they are, but if they are being looked after on private land then it really isn't a problem for us, just for the land owner.

Discodog

Irishgoatman wrote: »

I fully agree with you. I was pointing out that if animals are being ill treated/neglected then it doesn't matter where they are, but if they are being looked after on private land then it really isn't a problem for us, just for the land owner.

The moot point might be the definition of looked after. The critical thing is to gather evidence. Otherwise the owner will just claim that they are calling in to provide food & water.

This can be time consuming for limited resource SPCA'S. It really helps if the public gather evidence.

Roquentin

whats the latest on this front?

Dutchess

On my way to work this morning I saw a horse standing on a small grass patch behind the empty hotel at the roundabout by GMIT. Was wondering if this could be the mother of the foal that they are trying to hide away...

Reported it to the GSPCA and they said they'd pass it on to the field officer but I'll take a little look this evening and bring a camera with me.

TristanPeter

Roquentin wrote: »

whats the latest on this front?

Good question! We still have had no official response from the City Council about anything. So far they have just ignored the petition (apart from Mike Cubbard). We still need a meeting with them. As mentioned earlier by DiscoDog, they intend to take a tougher stance on the issue. This is great but I think we need something more concrete than good intentions, so we can hold them to it, work on solutions and monitor progress. They are probably not willing to put anything in writing or make anything official though for exactly this reason, being held accountable. It would really help imo if we could discuss the situation face to face with the relevant people so we can work together on it. If we collect evidence of horses being abused we have to know it is being acted upon, that there is a very specific procedure in place so all the evidence does not end up in a pile collecting dust.

Discodog

The comments regarding toughening up were made by the Minister. If there is evidence that the Council are refusing or not dealing with the issue, write to the Minister. But you must have specific examples otherwise the Council will just deny it.

Roquentin

Id say once that petition reaches is quota, print it off or send it by email to the councillors. I know i will. The whole situation seems to have lost a bit of momentum, but id still keep at them.

Id get on to the minister as well about enforcing laws

Discodog

Dutchess wrote: »

On my way to work this morning I saw a horse standing on a small grass patch behind the empty hotel at the roundabout by GMIT. Was wondering if this could be the mother of the foal that they are trying to hide away.

Reported it to the GSPCA and they said they'd pass it on to the field officer but I'll take a little look this evening and bring a camera with me.

Why would they be trying to hide the mother?

Bear in mind that the GSPCA can only act if a horse is being subjected to cruelty or neglect.