Foal killed in Galway

thegreatgonzo

TristanPeter wrote: »

I will ask them this at the public hearing.

When is the next public meeting? Has anyone here requested this issue be added to the agenda?

Dan_Solo

TristanPeter wrote: »

"often they receive complaints too late or not at all"

If they don't receive a complaint how do they know there was a complaint at all? :eek:

Discodog

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

There is also the little question of budget. Do you know how much budget the council has for seizing horses and the follow-up worik that is needed?

What do you think the council officers should do if the budget is inadequate?

I think that it's about €480 per horse. The exact figure together with the numbers seized is in one of links that I posted.

The Council should stop wasting money on vanity projects & focus on upholding the law.

People will be very reluctant to report a horse when they realise that they are signing it's death warrant. The owner should be made to pay for the upkeep & rehoming.

Yet again the human commits the crime & the innocent animal gets punished.

TristanPeter

Discodog wrote: »

The Council should stop wasting money on vanity projects & focus on upholding the law.

People will be very reluctant to report a horse when they realise that they are signing it's death warrant. The owner should be made to pay for the upkeep & rehoming.

Yet again the human commits the crime & the innocent animal gets punished.

You hit the nail on the head Discodog. Also, I don't see why the council want to engage in talks with people who clearly abuse animals, and will continue to do so. Just uphold the law, it should apply equally to everyone.

Any ideas on how we can get them to stage a public hearing based on the petition? Is there some process we can follow maybe?

thegreatgonzo

TristanPeter wrote: »

Any ideas on how we can get them to stage a public hearing based on the petition? Is there some process we can follow maybe?

There is a public meeting every month, I think the next one is July 7th, why not just go to that one?

Mrs OBumble

Dan_Solo wrote: »

If it's purely a budget issue then I'd scrap all €4,000,000 the City Council spends on the arts per year. Horses are being left to starve and be beaten to death on the side of the road, but at least the flowers lovely this time of year and you can watch some auld crap as Gaeilge down the theatre.


There you go. The Council had allocated a total budget of zero to horses, but now has €50,000 for it. I propose they spend it all on immediate destruction of impounded horses.

So let me see if I've understood:

You want all mis-treated horses to be killed ASAP.

And you don't want to spend money on the arts-stuff that draws tourists to Galway, and thus keeps businesses (which pay rates which fund council services) going and people employed.

And you don't want to fund any education initiatives which might see ignorant people educated so they can avoid mis-treating their horses in the first place.






Are you getting any idea that this issue is complex, and why it's not quite as simple to solve as you might think?

And tell me - if the Travellers object to having their horses confiscated and shot, and perhaps decide to protest to show their displeasure, what do you think we should do with them?

TristanPeter

thegreatgonzo wrote: »

There is a public meeting every month, I think the next one is July 7th, why not just go to that one?

I have been to one of them before and from what I could tell, the meeting is held in public but the public don't participate, they just watch and listen. I want a meeting with a Q&A session specifically dedicated to this. Also, they have an agenda. Even if this issue was included, I don't want them to put it at the very end so they can all give it 2-3 mins of their time and them be out the door (which is what happened at the meeting I was at before regarding planning for the Tesco proposal, Westside).

thegreatgonzo

TristanPeter wrote: »

I have been to one of them before and from what I could tell, the meeting is held in public but the public don't participate, they just watch and listen. I want a meeting with a Q&A session specifically dedicated to this. Also, they have an agenda. Even if this issue was included, I don't want them to put it at the very end so they can all give it 2-3 mins of their time and them be out the door (which is what happened at the meeting I was at before regarding planning for the Tesco proposal, Westside).

Well you have to work with the system that's in place. According to the website you can submit items to the agenda. There won't be any meetings held in August and I doubt that they grant specific meetings to everyone that wants them anyway.
There's no point in demonising one section of the community and excluding them from finding a solution and there's no point either endlessly pointing the finger at the guards and the council for their failures. It just won't achieve anything.The community has to get together on this and if that means a fundraising or education initiative that we all get involved in we have to realise change won't happen overnight.

TristanPeter

thegreatgonzo wrote: »

There's no point in demonising one section of the community and excluding them from finding a solution and there's no point either endlessly pointing the finger at the guards and the council for their failures. It just won't achieve anything.The community has to get together on this and if that means a fundraising or education initiative that we all get involved in we have to realise change won't happen overnight.

I agree, and I don't want to demonise any group of people. I just want the laws that are there to be enforced. It's not about pointing the finger at the council or the Gardai, it's about keeping pressure on them so they do what they should have been doing all along.

Education in schools I believe is critical, from an early age as to how to treat animals well, but as for the youths who killed the foal, that's just wrong, plane and simple. I don't know who did it, and I won't speculate.

TristanPeter

thegreatgonzo wrote: »

Well you have to work with the system that's in place. According to the website you can submit items to the agenda. There won't be any meetings held in August and I doubt that they grant specific meetings to everyone that wants them anyway.

I was just looking at the Council's website. I don't see anywhere to request something be added to the Agenda. Do you have a link please? I am looking here:
http://www.galwaycity.ie/council-meetings-details/council-meetings-detail-information/#2

Also, I see they have a the minutes available for a number of "special" meetings so I don't see why they can't have one for this.

http://www.galwaycity.ie/council-meetings-details/council-meetings-detail-information/council-meetings/?filter=agenda

thegreatgonzo

TristanPeter wrote: »

I was just looking at the Council's website. I don't see anywhere to request something be added to the Agenda. Do you have a link please? I am looking here:
http://www.galwaycity.ie/council-meetings-details/council-meetings-detail-information/#2

Also, I see they have a the minutes available for a number of "special" meetings so I don't see why they can't have one for this.

http://www.galwaycity.ie/council-meetings-details/council-meetings-detail-information/council-meetings/?filter=agenda

Sorry I phrased that wrong. There is a person you can email with the issue you want raised but I found that out by ringing the number that's on that page. I was told the special meetings are arranged by councillors so you might have a long wait.

Dan_Solo

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

So let me see if I've understood:
You want all mis-treated horses to be killed ASAP.
And you don't want to spend money on the arts-stuff that draws tourists to Galway, and thus keeps businesses (which pay rates which fund council services) going and people employed.
And you don't want to fund any education initiatives which might see ignorant people educated so they can avoid mis-treating their horses in the first place.
Are you getting any idea that this issue is complex, and why it's not quite as simple to solve as you might think?
And tell me - if the Travellers object to having their horses confiscated and shot, and perhaps decide to protest to show their displeasure, what do you think we should do with them?

I have no problem with humane destruction of horses if that's what you're getting at. This is the norm for every other animal in the country.
Arts stuff can take a back seat until we get some pretty fundamental basics, such as neglected livestock in urban areas, fixed. If all this fabulous tourist money is swelling council coffers but not getting near more important issues like this, what is the point of it?
No, I don't want any money wasted on education initiatives a.k.a. yet more freebies for travellers. I want the law adhered to and enforced. I'm not sure why anybody should care if travellers are upset by Irish laws being enforced? If I arrange a protest is it OK for me to grow opium in my garden or shoot random passers by?
Would travellers be more upset about their abused horses being taken away than I am about them being abused?
Are there any circumstances under which you feel local and national laws and by-laws should ever be enforced?

The main problem here seems to be the council, the Gardai (and a few posters here) who will regurgitate the line that "nothing can be done" ad nauseum and think that's good enough.

Discodog

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Are you getting any idea that this issue is complex, and why it's not quite as simple to solve as you might think?

And tell me - if the Travellers object to having their horses confiscated and shot, and perhaps decide to protest to show their displeasure, what do you think we should do with them?

The let's tell them that it's too complicated for them to understand, the standard patronising argument. The issue is staggeringly simple. There is a law & a penalty for breaking it.

Any citizen has the right to peaceful protest. If they become violent then they get arrested.

No one wants to see horses killed & there is no reason why they should be. A simple ammendment to the Act would allow the authority to bill the owner for all costs.

The critical point is to ensure that people who have their animals seized are never allowed to replace them.

Dan_Solo

Discodog wrote: »

No one wants to see horses killed & there is no reason why they should be. A simple ammendment to the Act would allow the authority to bill the owner for all costs.

I would prefer if they could be rehomed or something, but this doesn't appear to be possible with the current budget. You could try fining the owners for the money, but I doubt that would get you anywhere. The main thing is that people learn quickly that there's no point trying to keep a horse illegally as it'll be immediately removed.

TristanPeter

Discodog wrote: »

The let's tell them that it's too complicated for them to understand, the standard patronising argument. The issue is staggeringly simple. There is a law & a penalty for breaking it.



The critical point is to ensure that people who have their animals seized are never allowed to replace them.

I totally agree. I don't see that this has anything specifically to do with minority groups in terms of law enforcement. We should all be equal in the eyes of the law so we need to start applying it to everyone, equally. The fact you happen to belong to a minority group should be irrelevant.

Discodog

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I would prefer if they could be rehomed or something, but this doesn't appear to be possible with the current budget. You could try fining the owners for the money, but I doubt that would get you anywhere. The main thing is that people learn quickly that there's no point for trying to keep a horse illegally as it'll be immediately removed.

I would seize their assets like the shiny jeep on the drive. Or take 50 a week from their benefit.

thegreatgonzo

So getting back to the meeting on the 7th July, as it would be an opportunity to present the petition to the council, is anybody able to go?

TristanPeter

I should be able to go. Even though they already have the petition, it may be no harm presenting them with a hard-copy.

thegreatgonzo

TristanPeter wrote: »

I should be able to go. Even though they already have the petition, it may be no harm presenting them with a hard-copy.

I agree. Unfortunately I'll be working in Dublin so I can't go then.

Mrs OBumble

Discodog wrote: »

The let's tell them that it's too complicated for them to understand, the standard patronising argument. The issue is staggeringly simple. There is a law & a penalty for breaking it.

...

No one wants to see horses killed & there is no reason why they should be. A simple ammendment to the Act would allow the authority to bill the owner for all costs.

Haaaaaaaa .. that's a good laugh: Bill the owners (if you can determine who they are) - and then when they don't pay (either can't or won't), jail them (I'm hearing that the average length of actual sentence served in Castlerea for debt offences is 15 minutes). Oh - and who picks up the bill for shooting the horse then?

Clearly you've never been involved in a complex issue in which law enforcement can only ever be part of the solution.

What you're saying is horse equivalent of "We should not bother with road safety education or road-engineering projects. Just fine people who break the traffic laws, and if they repeat offend, take their cars away from them." Sound great - doesn't work in real life.

And no, I'm not being patronising. Or saying we should do nothing.

But it's not as simple as just enforcing laws. If it was, it would have been done years ago.

meoklmrk91

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Haaaaaaaa .. that's a good laugh: Bill the owners (if you can determine who they are) - and then when they don't pay (either can't or won't), jail them (I'm hearing that the average length of actual sentence served in Castlerea for debt offences is 15 minutes). Oh - and who picks up the bill for shooting the horse then?

Clearly you've never been involved in a complex issue in which law enforcement can only ever be part of the solution.

What you're saying is horse equivalent of "We should not bother with road safety education or road-engineering projects. Just fine people who break the traffic laws, and if they repeat offend, take their cars away from them." Sound great - doesn't work in real life.

And no, I'm not being patronising. Or saying we should do nothing.

But it's not as simple as just enforcing laws. If it was, it would have been done years ago.

It may not be as simple as enforcing laws, but it might be a good place to start.

If I'm honest I don't see what education is needed, you are not allowed to keep a horse in an urban setting, why does that require education?

I certainly agree that education is needed to teach children in primary schools to be kind to animals and that it is wrong to treat them cruelly. But if the horses weren't there in the first place then they couldn't abuse them, beat them, set them alight.

TristanPeter

Today's Lesson: Do not beat animals to death and/or set them on fire.

JillyQ

There is an article in the Galway Independent today about it. The GSPCA are asking the City Council to build stables for the horses. here is the link http://www.galwayindependent.com/20140625/news/call-to-build-stables-for-stray-horses-S40222.html

Mrs OBumble

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

If I'm honest I don't see what education is needed, you are not allowed to keep a horse in an urban setting

Can you give us a link to the law saying that?

Dan_Solo

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Haaaaaaaa .. that's a good laugh: Bill the owners (if you can determine who they are) - and then when they don't pay (either can't or won't), jail them (I'm hearing that the average length of actual sentence served in Castlerea for debt offences is 15 minutes). Oh - and who picks up the bill for shooting the horse then?

Clearly you've never been involved in a complex issue in which law enforcement can only ever be part of the solution.

What you're saying is horse equivalent of "We should not bother with road safety education or road-engineering projects. Just fine people who break the traffic laws, and if they repeat offend, take their cars away from them." Sound great - doesn't work in real life.

And no, I'm not being patronising. Or saying we should do nothing.

But it's not as simple as just enforcing laws. If it was, it would have been done years ago.

This issue is obviously confusing you immensely.
Travellers do not need horses. They are illegal to own in residential areas. They have zero equivalence to car ownership. What relevance does a "road engineering project" have to dumping a horse in a public green area? Is it likely car owners will be getting free garage facilities too now, just like free stabling is being proposed for travellers' horses?
Lousy analogy is lousy.

Dan_Solo

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Can you give us a link to the law saying that?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/animal_welfare_and_control/control_of_horses.html

Seizure and detention of horses
Members of the Gardai and authorised persons from your local authority have the right to seize and detain your horse if they suspect that your horse is:

a stray
causing a nuisance
being mistreated
not under adequate control
posing a threat to other people or property
posing a threat to the health and welfare of other people and animals
not identifiable or capable of being identified
in need of veterinary attention and is unlikely to receive this care
in an area/kept in an area/being ridden/driven in an area where it is not allowed by your local authority
kept in a local authority Control Area without a licence.

Look, we get it at this stage that you've no interest in having this issue solved, but your reasons for ignoring it are somewhere between ludicrous and insulting.

Dan_Solo

JillyQ wrote: »

There is an article in the Galway Independent today about it. The GSPCA are asking the City Council to build stables for the horses. here is the link http://www.galwayindependent.com/20140625/news/call-to-build-stables-for-stray-horses-S40222.html

“The council has loads of land - they’d be much better off spending the money on stables as opposed to the hundreds of thousands they’re spending on picking up horses and getting them destroyed.”

I simply don't believe it is cheaper to stable horses that are never claimed by their owners than it is to destroy them. It just isn't possible.
Also, the indicative budget for horse control is €50,000 this year and was zero last year. Where's this "hundreds of thousands" coming from?

TristanPeter

IMO, the GSPCA are just trying to create the impression that they are doing something, talking through their hats. They should start by making an official complaint about the incident to the Gardai. How long ago did it happen now

Mrs OBumble

Dan_Solo wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/animal_welfare_and_control/control_of_horses.html

Look, we get it at this stage that you've no interest in having this issue solved,

Nice link - but it does not say that you are not allowed to keep horses in an urban area. All it says is that is some designated Control Areas, you must have a license.

Is Galway City even designated as a Control Area?

And please point to the place where I have said that I have no interest in having the issue solved.

I would say that I'm equally interested in having it solved, but that I do not believe a solution which basically says "shoot them all" is going to be acceptable. (I'm not a horse lover .. but even I don't think they deserve to be shot just 'cos their owner is ignorant.)

Dan_Solo

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Nice link - but it does not say that you are not allowed to keep horses in an urban area. All it says is that is some designated Control Areas, you must have a license.

causing a nuisance
posing a threat to other people or property
posing a threat to the health and welfare of other people and animals
not identifiable or capable of being identified

No bye law required at all. Urban is fine as long as they're on your own land with adequate space.
Next reason to do nothing please.