Uruguay Vs England 8pm (RTE/BBC/ITV) Group D

Paul Tergat

Our problem is that we dont have good enough players to compete with the best. We can generally get through qualifying ok but when it comes to the step up this current crop is nowehere near good enough.

Joeface

All one has to do is look at the Top 4 from lthe premiership , and compare to other leagues even the premiership has no faith in its national born players , I took a quick look at the squads they list and below is the number of English on each panel

(English/total squad)
Man City 7/27 , Liverpool 10 /29 , Chelsea 7/30 and Arsenal 4 /25

Go to Germany and you get this for German players , Bayren 15/27 , Dortmund 23/34 , Schalke 24/43 , Leverkusen 24/40

I am pretty sure if you were to check the other top leagues you would find similar to Germany. Yes they buy in foreign players but its to advance there own development , not dump the local players altogether.

Will I Amnt

Paul Tergat wrote: »

Our problem is that we dont have good enough players to compete with the best. We can generally get through qualifying ok but when it comes to the step up this current crop is nowehere near good enough.

Or just blame everything on Hodgson...

Nuri Sahin

Blame CanadaLiverpool and their fans.

bucketybuck wrote: »

Personally I don't belive that Gerrard was that important to Liverpool last year and that he wasn't really effective at all, he is hyped because of his name and his history rather than because of his actual performances. He wasn't really any better or worse for England than he was for Liverpool.

But thats by the by, because even thinking that there still weren't many alternatives to him, which is the real problem instead of formations.


Sure, try it. But if they had done what you suggest here they still wouldn't have done anything at this world cup. Gerrard, Henderson and Lallana still aren't going to control midfield, Rooney, Sterling and Sturridge still aren't going to rip teams apart.

Said it before as well. Italy provide a solid platform for Pirlo because he is worth it, but why exactly should England be deciding on formations to accommodate Gerrard? Because Gerrard sure as hell ain't no Pirlo.

I've been one of Gerrard's biggest critics over the past near handful of years amongst Liverpool supporters, calling for him to be dropped at a few various points, but the above is so far and away wrong.

He should have called it quits after Euro 2012 in which he was impressive though.

smileyj1987

Roy hodgson is to blame for the mess England are in . He should pick a formation to go with the players at his disposal .

I would really consider trying out my below formation for a number of games and see how it works .

---

hart

---

Johnson

---

Cahill----jagielka--baines

---

gerrard

---

---

Henderson

---

Barkley

---

---

sterling

---

---

Sturrigde

---

Rooney

---

That's how I would have lined that team up for the World Cup .

Alonso77

Will I Amnt wrote: »

It seems people just want England to be Liverpool, play the same system and have the same players in the same positions they are in at Liverpool and other players doing the same job covering as the Liverpool players that aren't available?

Who has said this ? but they prob would do a lot better than they are doing now

SlickRic

Will I Amnt wrote: »

It seems people just want England to be Liverpool, play the same system and have the same players in the same positions they are in at Liverpool?

if you're going to play Gerrard in CM, you kind of have to in order to accommodate him.

he doesn't have the legs or the nous to play in a system like last night.

CBs need to split, full backs push on, Gerrard sits, and two midfielders with energy play in front of him to protect him. it's the only way you can get the best out of Gerrard as a deep lying midfield player. Rodgers isn't dumb. he knows what Gerrard can and can't do. it took him a few months, but he gets it.

Hodgson doesn't. he buys into this myth that all the media, and even those in football, have bought into - that Gerrard is a fantastic all-round CM. he's not. he can do certain things that others can't, but he doesn't do a lot of the basics well enough - he needs others to do that.

in Roy's system, Gerrard can only be effective on the right wing, or behind the front man taking pot shots and making the odd driving run. Henderson can't control a midfield on his own.

why do we think Rooney was dropping so deep so often? Sturridge too? because there was no control in the middle, because Stevie can't do it in that system. Rooney had to rise above the mess of the setup and try to do something. many said England controlled the game against Italy. they didn't. Italy had no problem with England having the ball 40 yards out. none whatsoever. it was an illusion.

i don't blame Stevie. i don't blame Rooney. i don't blame the CBs. i don't blame the wingbacks.

it's the manager. he's out of his depth, and he always has been. England were never going to win the World Cup, but that is not the best they have to offer. he thought that bringing all these talented young players would make the public happy. the problem is, he knows very little about how to get the best out of them. for instance, against Italy, he threw on a load of no.10s and hoped for the best.

if this tournament had been overseen by Eriksson, Capello, or even Mourinho if he was in the job, the manager would have been absolutely castigated. as it is, Roy is pretty much getting a free pass. his position should really be untenable at this stage.

bucketybuck

SlickRic wrote: »

if you're going to play Gerrard in CM, you kind of have to in order to accommodate him.

he doesn't have the legs or the nous to play in a system like last night.

CBs need to split, full backs push on, Gerrard sits, and two midfielders with energy play in front of him to protect him. it's the only way you can get the best out of Gerrard as a deep lying midfield player.

But why? Why are they trying to accommodate him, what exactly is he offering from that position?

Soups123

SlickRic wrote: »

if you're going to play Gerrard in CM, you kind of have to in order to accommodate him.

he doesn't have the legs or the nous to play in a system like last night.

CBs need to split, full backs push on, Gerrard sits, and two midfielders with energy play in front of him to protect him. it's the only way you can get the best out of Gerrard as a deep lying midfield player. Rodgers isn't dumb. he knows what Gerrard can and can't do. it took him a few months, but he gets it.

Hodgson doesn't. he buys into this myth that all the media, and even those in football, have bought into - that Gerrard is a fantastic all-round CM. he's not. he can do certain things that others can't, but he doesn't do a lot of the basics well enough - he needs others to do that.

in Roy's system, Gerrard can only be effective on the right wing, or behind the front man taking pot shots and making the odd driving run. Henderson can't control a midfield on his own.

why do we think Rooney was dropping so deep so often? Sturridge too? because there was no control in the middle, because Stevie can't do it in that system. Rooney had to rise above the mess of the setup and try to do something. many said England controlled the game against Italy. they didn't. Italy had no problem with England having the ball 40 yards out. none whatsoever. it was an illusion.

i don't blame Stevie. i don't blame Rooney. i don't blame the CBs. i don't blame the wingbacks.

it's the manager. he's out of his depth, and he always has been. England were never going to win the World Cup, but that is not the best they have to offer. he thought that bringing all these talented young players would make the public happy. the problem is, he knows very little about how to get the best out of them. for instance, against Italy, he threw on a load of no.10s and hoped for the best.

if this tournament had been overseen by Eriksson, Capello, or even Mourinho if he was in the job, the manager would have been absolutely castigated. as it is, Roy is pretty much getting a free pass. his position should really be untenable at this stage.

If all this is so obvious to you and others, then why does the blame not lie with Stevie G? If he isnt able for this level he should retire so the blame lies with him also.

I agree its Hogsons call and tbh he called it wrong Stevie G is past it at this level, yes he can play a holding role for Liverpool but I think even that will be beyond him as this season progress. Smashing player in his day but his day is done

Paul Tergat

SlickRic wrote: »

if this tournament had been overseen by Eriksson, Capello, or even Mourinho if he was in the job, the manager would have been absolutely castigated. as it is, Roy is pretty much getting a free pass. his position should really be untenable at this stage.

Whats the common denominator here? Huge calls to go for an English manager after Capello and he will probably be given another campaign

Rayne Wooney

I like how we're using one game to judge the best player in the world, who's gonna be the best player in the world today? My money's on Benzy

To be fair to Suarez he's probably, at a push, the second best striker at the tournament.

smileyj1987

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I like how we're using one game to judge the best player in the world, who's gonna be the best player in the world today? My money's on Benzy

To be fair to Suarez he's probably, at a push, the second best striker at the tournament.

Who would you have ahead of Suarez at this moment in time ?

Soups123

smileyj1987 wrote: »

Who would you have ahead of Suarez at this moment in time ?

Messi is top, followed by Ronaldo with Augero and Suarez next.

Dick phelan

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Considering Hodgson picked all of these players then of course you can blame him.

So who would have been better though, put in inexperenced Shaw, Milner, Carrick, Cleverly, Walker, Stone, Lampard, Wilshire, fact is England just aren't very good their players are just overhyped by their media to give the impression that they have a bunch of world class players they really don't.

IgnatiousReily

Soups123 wrote: »

Messi is top, followed by Ronaldo with Augero and Suarez next.

Suarez is ahead of Aguero by a stretch.

Rayne Wooney

smileyj1987 wrote: »

Who would you have ahead of Suarez at this moment in time ?

ankaragucu

Gerrard has been overrated all his career.At his peak he NEVER controlled a match like Keane or Scholes could do.Yes he could do certain things better than either of those two, he could beat two players and lash one in the top corner from 30 yards.Those days are passed.But he never CONTROLLED games in the way real midfield generals do.
Bottom line with England is they havent won ought since 66 for the simple reason that they havent been good enough.

Soups123

IgnatiousReily wrote: »

Suarez is ahead of Aguero by a stretch.

I disagree when he is injury free he is exceptional and has been as good as Suarez over a few seasons. But tbh its a preference thing I would love either equally in my team.

TimeToShine

Suarez is the third best player in the world.

I don't know how anyone can dispute that. Ronaldo/Messi are on a different plane altogether, and unless Suarez drags Uruguay to the final here or puts in another 2 seasons like the last one with Liverpool he won't be up there with them.

The likes of Neymar, Aguero, Falcao, etc. are below those 3.

Rayne Wooney

Aguero has an almost identical goal ratio record to Suarez and scores more against the big teams also

smileyj1987

Soups123 wrote: »

Messi is top, followed by Ronaldo with Augero and Suarez next.

Yeah I would say that's accurate . I think what would edge it for Suarez is that absolute unpredictability he brings to the game . You just don't know what he will do next with the ball at his feet .

Turtyturd

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

If you're gonna go on the wind up at least stick in a picture of someone like Giroud.

TimeToShine

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Aguero has an almost identical goal ratio record to Suarez and scores more against the big teams also

City won the league without Aguero. Liverpool would be mid-table without Suarez.

The man was absolutely phenomenal last season and it looks like he's gonna keep it up.

Will I Amnt

SlickRic wrote: »

if you're going to play Gerrard in CM, you kind of have to in order to accommodate him.

he doesn't have the legs or the nous to play in a system like last night.

CBs need to split, full backs push on, Gerrard sits, and two midfielders with energy play in front of him to protect him. it's the only way you can get the best out of Gerrard as a deep lying midfield player. Rodgers isn't dumb. he knows what Gerrard can and can't do. it took him a few months, but he gets it.

Hodgson doesn't. he buys into this myth that all the media, and even those in football, have bought into - that Gerrard is a fantastic all-round CM. he's not. he can do certain things that others can't, but he doesn't do a lot of the basics well enough - he needs others to do that.

in Roy's system, Gerrard can only be effective on the right wing, or behind the front man taking pot shots and making the odd driving run. Henderson can't control a midfield on his own.

why do we think Rooney was dropping so deep so often? Sturridge too? because there was no control in the middle, because Stevie can't do it in that system. Rooney had to rise above the mess of the setup and try to do something. many said England controlled the game against Italy. they didn't. Italy had no problem with England having the ball 40 yards out. none whatsoever. it was an illusion.

i don't blame Stevie. i don't blame Rooney. i don't blame the CBs. i don't blame the wingbacks.

it's the manager. he's out of his depth, and he always has been. England were never going to win the World Cup, but that is not the best they have to offer. he thought that bringing all these talented young players would make the public happy. the problem is, he knows very little about how to get the best out of them. for instance, against Italy, he threw on a load of no.10s and hoped for the best.

if this tournament had been overseen by Eriksson, Capello, or even Mourinho if he was in the job, the manager would have been absolutely castigated. as it is, Roy is pretty much getting a free pass. his position should really be untenable at this stage.

England are not Liverpool, there seems to me to be a vocal few getting up in arms for not playing exactly like Liverpool, not just here mind. Even Scholes was of the same opinion.

Rayne Wooney

TimeToShine wrote: »

City won the league without Aguero. Liverpool would be mid-table without Suarez.

The man was absolutely phenomenal last season and it looks like he's gonna keep it up.

Aguero would do the same for Liverpool

Interesting stat almost 40% of Suarez's goals for Liverpool have come against just 4 teams: Wigan, Norwich, Cardiff and Sunderland

Anyway best forward in the tourney right now is the Flying Dutchman

Knex*

Will I Amnt wrote: »

England are not Liverpool, there seems to me to be a vocal few getting up in arms for not playing exactly like Liverpool, not just here mind. Even Scholes was of the same opinion.

If you're gonna play Gerrard in midfield, and want to get both Rooney and Sturridge on the same pitch, you kinda have to play like Liverpool.

If you don't want to play like Liverpool, bring Gareth Barry, tell the media to piss off, and put Sturridge or Rooney out wide.

Hitchens

Was the Suarez goal as good as the one Tim Kayhill scored? Suarez wasn't being marked when he scored?

Knex*

Hitchens wrote: »

Was the Suarez goal as good as The one Tim Kayhill scored?

Don't think so. Cahill's is goal of the tournament for me.

smileyj1987

Will I Amnt wrote: »

England are not Liverpool, there seems to me to be a vocal few getting up in arms for not playing exactly like Liverpool, not just here mind. Even Scholes was of the same opinion.

But then maybe scholes watched them in depth and said this is a good way to play . They score a lot of goals and can be quite a handful to play against .
If you see a good formula in front of your eyes try to adapt it to work for you . This is why Roy isn't a good manager . It seems to be a thing of play one formation and if it doesn't go right then no plan b what so ever . Plus he also needs to get England playing in a way that get Sturrigde and Rooney playing as strikers .

rob316

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Aguero has an almost identical goal ratio record to Suarez and scores more against the big teams also

Suarez is so much more than a great goal scorer, he is the talisman of the Liverpool and Uruguayan teams.
His commitment on the pitch is unrivalled, a scorer of great goals, a playmaker, a leader.

RVP is a fantastic finisher one of the best I have seen but as an overall player Suarez is on another level and up there with Messi and Ronaldo, I don't even know how you can debate this.

jasoncoylerd

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Aguero would do the same for Liverpool

Interesting stat almost 40% of Suarez's goals for Liverpool have come against just 4 teams: Wigan, Norwich, Cardiff and Sunderland

Anyway best forward in the tourney right now is the Flying Dutchman

i had the same arguement with a friend who claimed liverpool would be midtable without suarez, he also said van persie carried arsenal the season before he left to join for man utd, the following season arsenal scored more goals and got more points than they did the previous season!

everyone said the same when ronaldo was leaving utd, thats them theyre finished one man team, same when torres left liverpool..........its not true.

Soups123

rob316 wrote: »

Suarez is so much more than a great goal scorer, he is the talisman of the Liverpool and Uruguayan teams.
His commitment on the pitch is unrivalled, a scorer of great goals, a playmaker, a leader.

RVP is a fantastic finisher one of the best I have seen but as an overall player Suarez is on another level and up there with Messi and Ronaldo, I don't even know how you can debate this.

A bit dramatic, his commitment is excellent but unrivaled? Come on there are plently of players who put it all in like he does, the difference is he can do other things that they cant with the ball

Adamocovic

Kind of ironic how England are finally playing the way the press and fans wanted, a possession driven attacking play with young players, and now they might have their worst world cup in their history. I think they are playing good football but wasting chances and sloppy defending at times cost them. Realistically they should have at least got a point from the two games but if you have a lot of chances and don't take them you are going to be punished. I would like to see Italy win the next game and lead up to a very entertaining game with Costa Rica and Italy vs Uruguay.

Ranchu

Gareth Barry should have been brought. Would have improved that midfield tenfold.

jasoncoylerd

Adamocovic wrote: »

Kind of ironic how England are finally playing the way the press and fans wanted, a possession driven attacking play with young players, and now they might have their worst world cup in their history. I think they are playing good football but wasting chances and sloppy defending at times cost them. Realistically they should have at least got a point from the two games but if you have a lot of chances and don't take them you are going to be punished. I would like to see Italy win the next game and lead up to a very entertaining game with Costa Rica and Italy vs Uruguay.

i thought watching their friendly with honduras a couple weeks back that they were trying to play exactly like liverpool like so many of the media had called but they were and they werent, gerrard was deep but hes deep in a midfield 3 for liverpool not a midfiled 2 like england were doing and he just doesnt have the legs anymore to play that way england wanted. that said their defence was is a mess , jagielka and johnson cant defend and baines isnt just top notch, stick john terry and ashley cole into that defence for jagielka and baines and they would have been far better defending, welbeck shouldnt be anywhere near that team either, they have so many better players but with good old roy big buddies with fergie and the fact welbeck is still a utd player thats the only reason he was getting selected, van gal will have welbeck out the door next year wait to you see and hell be off to a mid table team at best and that will be the end of him in an england jersey. sure when the likes of fraizer campbell made a few appearances for utd he was the next best england striker ever, he was soon found out

bucketybuck

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

scores more against the big teams also

Wouldn't be hard.

Will I Amnt

smileyj1987 wrote: »

But then maybe scholes watched them in depth and said this is a good way to play . They score a lot of goals and can be quite a handful to play against .
If you see a good formula in front of your eyes try to adapt it to work for you . This is why Roy isn't a good manager . It seems to be a thing of play one formation and if it doesn't go right then no plan b what so ever . Plus he also needs to get England playing in a way that get Sturrigde and Rooney playing as strikers .

No it isn't. Do you think Guardiola would abandon his tika-taka to play like Liverpool? Or Mourinho would throw caution to the wind with that fragile defence?

Christy42

Will I Amnt wrote: »

England are not Liverpool, there seems to me to be a vocal few getting up in arms for not playing exactly like Liverpool, not just here mind. Even Scholes was of the same opinion.

The team list is pretty similar. Rodgers obviously has the advantage of Suarez but they won a few games without him and Rooney is not a terrible replacement. You get a better keeper in Joe Hart, both sides can't defend for their lives (though I reckon Skrtel would kill his granny).

I don't think any manager would get England the world cup at this stage, they aren't good enough but they have played two games against two sides not expected to win the world cup and lost both. They don't have the best players in the world but they could be doing a lot better with what they have.

I don't think Gareth Barry is the answer to anyone's problems though. Never rated him.

Ranchu

I don't think the defence was the biggest problem. Cahill, Jagielka, Baines and Hart were in the top three premier league defences last season. They were overrun from midfield where Hodgson decided to not field any proper defensive midfielders.

SlickRic

i don't think England should play like Liverpool. they don't have the players, and who says Liverpool's is the best way?

but the thing is, at this stage of Gerrard's career, his role is very specific in the Liverpool set-up. he isn't just thrown into a midfield 2 and told to be all things to all men.

but that team is littered with pace and technique in the forward positions. the problem is, the England team did not use this properly, as their buildup was utterly lethargic.

there was a load of wánking off in the English media about England's ability to keep possession. it made me chuckle quite a bit. sterile possession is utterly pointless, and only serves to allow the opposition to get in their shape again. what ended up happening was Rooney, Sturridge, Sterling were endlessly trying that one little moment of individual inspiration.

that didn't happen, needless to say.

jasoncoylerd

SlickRic wrote: »

i don't think England should play like Liverpool. they don't have the players, and who says Liverpool's is the best way?

but the thing is, at this stage of Gerrard's career, his role is very specific in the Liverpool set-up. he isn't just thrown into a midfield 2 and told to be all things to all men.

but that team is littered with pace and technique in the forward positions. the problem is, the England team did not use this properly, as their buildup was utterly lethargic.

there was a load of wánking off in the English media about England's ability to keep possession. it made me chuckle quite a bit. sterile possession is utterly pointless, and only serves to allow the opposition to get in their shape again. what ended up happening was Rooney, Sturridge, Sterling were endlessly trying that one little moment of individual inspiration.

that didn't happen, needless to say.

typical english media lol

Adamocovic

I think the attacking play they have adopted has left them open during counter attacks, Gerrard doesn't have the fitness and agility to cover on his own for a full 90 minutes and would be helped with the likes of a Gareth Barry etc beside him to cover the back four. I have never thought of Henderson as a defensive midfielder more of a wide man. Think the way it is set up with Sterling, Rooney, Sturridge and Welbeck leaves them very open. Pretty much four strikers there who are good players but can't help out defensively enough. Playing good football but just getting caught in counters, switch Uruguay or Italy with a lower quality team and this England side would be going through and praised, tough group hasn't helped their change in style.

Rayne Wooney

rob316 wrote: »

Suarez is so much more than a great goal scorer, he is the talisman of the Liverpool and Uruguayan teams.
His commitment on the pitch is unrivalled, a scorer of great goals, a playmaker, a leader.

RVP is a fantastic finisher one of the best I have seen but as an overall player Suarez is on another level and up there with Messi and Ronaldo, I don't even know how you can debate this.

First paragraph almost poetic and reminds me of our resident blaugranian but it could be said about any player really

Suarez arguably isn't even as good as Ronaldo in 09 let alone now, him and Messi are miles and miles apart from the next player down, how Suarez has had one good season and one great season and is being talked about in the same breath as those two is laughable really.

Benimar

Knex. wrote: »

If you're gonna play Gerrard in midfield, and want to get both Rooney and Sturridge on the same pitch, you kinda have to play like Liverpool.

If you don't want to play like Liverpool, bring Gareth Barry, tell the media to piss off, and put Sturridge or Rooney out wide.

This sums it up in a nutshell.

If England are going to start with 5 Liverpool players, then why not play the same way? Its a system that would suit the likes of Baines, Rooney and Barkley too. It would have every one of the 'front 6' in positions they are best in.

If they don't want to play like Liverpool, it might have been an idea to put a defensive midfield player in the squad, as asking Gerrard to play in a 2 man midfield is nuts.

Nuri Sahin

Benimar wrote: »

This sums it up in a nutshell.

If England are going to start with 5 Liverpool players, then why not play the same way? Its a system that would suit the likes of Baines, Rooney and Barkley too. It would have every one of the 'front 6' in positions they are best in.

If they don't want to play like Liverpool, it might have been an idea to put a defensive midfield player in the squad, as asking Gerrard to play in a 2 man midfield is nuts.

You and Knex should take your common sense and geeeeeet ouut. #BlameLiverpool

Nozebleed

First off im sad to see england bow out.. I watched both england games on bbc...you had lineker,shearer,rio all criticising hodgson for playing rooney playing on the left against italy,even though he crossed the ball for the goal..proving it was a decent idea. The panel were adamant he should be playin in his best position up front or in the hole as it were..ok grand point taken says i. But at halftime in the uruguay game..one of the lads made the point the rooney playing in the hole..was no playing too central!! Ha ha. Then at the.end of the game,shearer and lineker made sure to highlight defensive mistake that caused them to lose game. In my opinion,you hve to score goals to win football matches thats the be all end all in football. And the lads on the beeb are now talking about englands failure at the cup. Lineker,shearer,rio and all seem to forget they failed to produce the goods in an england shirt.

Paul Tergat

Nuri Sahin wrote: »

You and Knex should take your common sense and geeeeeet ouut. #BlameLiverpool

Given the amount of bs said about Rooney after the first game and even today this is pretty daft.

Knex*

Paul Tergat wrote: »

Given the amount of bs said about Rooney after the first game and even today this is pretty daft.

Well, he is from Liverpool.

Paul Tergat

Nozebleed wrote: »

First off im sad to see england bow out.. I watched both england games on bbc...you had lineker,shearer,rio all criticising hodgson for playing rooney playing on the left against italy,even though he crossed the ball for the goal..proving it was a decent idea. The panel were adamant he should be playin in his best position up front or in the hole as it were..ok grand point taken says i. But at halftime in the uruguay game..one of the lads made the point the rooney playing in the hole..was no playing too central!! Ha ha. Then at the.end of the game,shearer and lineker made sure to highlight defensive mistake that caused them to lose game. In my opinion,you hve to score goals to win football matches thats the be all end all in football. And the lads on the beeb are now talking about englands failure at the cup. Lineker,shearer,rio and all seem to forget they failed to produce the goods in an england shirt.

Riiiight

Knex*

Nuri Sahin wrote: »

You and Knex should take your common sense and geeeeeet ouut. #BlameLiverpool

To be fair, I far prefer to revel in the whimsical, nonsensical stuff than I do to actually talking sense, most of the time