Uruguay Vs England 8pm (RTE/BBC/ITV) Group D

Paul Tergat

Knex. wrote: »

Well, he is from Liverpool.

touché sir

smileyj1987

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

First paragraph almost poetic and reminds me of our resident blaugranian but it could be said about any player really

Suarez arguably isn't even as good as Ronaldo in 09 let alone now, him and Messi are miles and miles apart from the next player down, how Suarez has had one good season and one great season and is being talked about in the same breath as those two is laughable really.

Kinda like your belief that RVP is better then Suarez that's totally laughable too .

SantryRed

What really ****ing pisses me off about the English media, is how they believe Capello was a disaster for them.

I was watching Russia-South Korea game during the week, and they talked so poorly so him. His qualifying record for them was exceptional, 9 wins and a loss for WC 2010 and 5 wins and 3 draws for Euro 2012.

He got them out of the group in WC 2010, albeit with disappointing results, but he still got them out. The 4-1 loss against the Germans was tough, but lets not forget Lampard's goal that wasn't given at 2-1.

Hodgson won't make the tough decisions. Gerrard should not be playing in that holding role, but he has not got the bottle to drop him. They need a stronger man in charge.

Will I Amnt

Paul Tergat wrote: »

Given the amount of bs said about Rooney after the first game and even today this is pretty daft.

Indeed. I don't see anybody blaming Liverpool anyway, just Hodgson for not being like Liverpool.

Giggsy11

SantryRed wrote: »

What really ****ing pisses me off about the English media, is how they believe Capello was a disaster for them.

I was watching Russia-South Korea game during the week, and they talked so poorly so him. His qualifying record for them was exceptional, 9 wins and a loss for WC 2010 and 5 wins and 3 draws for Euro 2012.

He got them out of the group in WC 2010, albeit with disappointing results, but he still got them out. The 4-1 loss against the Germans was tough, but lets not forget Lampard's goal that wasn't given at 2-1.

Hodgson won't make the tough decisions. Gerrard should not be playing in that holding role, but he has not got the bottle to drop him. They need a stronger man in charge.

That was piss poor group though.

Muahahaha

Lads while we're all here talking about England's destruction I think it is important not to forget that in both matches Rooney had gilt-edged chances that he fluffed straight at the keeper when there was acres of empty net to aim at. If those two chances went in England would be doing okay on two points with Costa Rica in their sights. The Rooney of old would have been more clinical under pressure in front of goal but he fluffed both chances and that's why they're on 0 points instead of two.

mike65

SantryRed wrote: »

What really ****ing pisses me off about the English media, is how they believe Capello was a disaster for them.

I was watching Russia-South Korea game during the week, and they talked so poorly so him. His qualifying record for them was exceptional, 9 wins and a loss for WC 2010 and 5 wins and 3 draws for Euro 2012.

He got them out of the group in WC 2010, albeit with disappointing results, but he still got them out. The 4-1 loss against the Germans was tough, but lets not forget Lampard's goal that wasn't given at 2-1.

Hodgson won't make the tough decisions. Gerrard should not be playing in that holding role, but he has not got the bottle to drop him. They need a stronger man in charge.

I'm expecting Gerrard to announce his retirement after the next game should it be the last. I reckon Rodgers will have a word in his ear about maximising himself for Liverpool or be ready to lose his place.

rob316

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

First paragraph almost poetic and reminds me of our resident blaugranian but it could be said about any player really

Suarez arguably isn't even as good as Ronaldo in 09 let alone now, him and Messi are miles and miles apart from the next player down, how Suarez has had one good season and one great season and is being talked about in the same breath as those two is laughable really.

So after Ronaldo and Messi who is your 3rd best player in the world currently and where would you rate Suarez?

Utopia Parkway

rob316 wrote: »

So after Ronaldo and Messi who is your 3rd best player in the world currently

Welbeck.

SantryRed

Giggsy11 wrote: »

That was piss poor group though.

Still got them out of it. And if not for a Rob Green howler, they could have topped it. Capello would have gotten this team out of the group they're in too.

He did not deserve the abuse he got.

jasoncoylerd

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

First paragraph almost poetic and reminds me of our resident blaugranian but it could be said about any player really

Suarez arguably isn't even as good as Ronaldo in 09 let alone now, him and Messi are miles and miles apart from the next player down, how Suarez has had one good season and one great season and is being talked about in the same breath as those two is laughable really.

anyone would swear you were a man united fan

Ravenid

Nozebleed wrote: »

First off im sad to see england bow out.. I watched both england games on bbc...you had lineker,shearer,rio all criticising hodgson for playing rooney playing on the left against italy,even though he crossed the ball for the goal..proving it was a decent idea. The panel were adamant he should be playin in his best position up front or in the hole as it were..ok grand point taken says i. But at halftime in the uruguay game..one of the lads made the point the rooney playing in the hole..was no playing too central!! Ha ha. Then at the.end of the game,shearer and lineker made sure to highlight defensive mistake that caused them to lose game. In my opinion,you hve to score goals to win football matches thats the be all end all in football. And the lads on the beeb are now talking about englands failure at the cup. Lineker,shearer,rio and all seem to forget they failed to produce the goods in an england shirt.

Really? Because I remember that they all managed to get past the Group stages without any real issues.

Meltdowns further on I admit but never anything like this.

Giggsy11

SantryRed wrote: »

Still got them out of it. And if not for a Rob Green howler, they could have topped it. Capello would have gotten this team out of the group they're in too.

He did not deserve the abuse he got.

That was the worst England performance in the group stages by far. England have lost 2 games but the performance was much much better than in 2010.

I don't know whether Capello would have got this team out of group but the performance was by far the worst I have seen from England.

Paul Tergat

I dont get where this playing good football is coming from? Its the same slow, turgid crap that England have played for the last few years now.

Utopia Parkway

ankaragucu wrote: »

Gerrard has been overrated all his career.At his peak he NEVER controlled a match like Keane or Scholes could do.Yes he could do certain things better than either of those two, he could beat two players and lash one in the top corner from 30 yards.Those days are passed.But he never CONTROLLED games in the way real midfield generals do.

He was never that type of player to begin with. Even at his peak. It baffles me why people still expect him to be.

Neither was someone like Lampard but they were great players in different ways than someone like Xavi was.

Knex*

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

First paragraph almost poetic and reminds me of our resident blaugranian but it could be said about any player really

Suarez arguably isn't even as good as Ronaldo in 09 let alone now, him and Messi are miles and miles apart from the next player down, how Suarez has had one good season and one great season and is being talked about in the same breath as those two is laughable really.

If all three were to retire tomorrow and we had to evaluate them on their body of work so far, I'd agree with you. Those two are far, far apart from anyone playing right now in what they have achieved. Two of the greatest ever.

However, on current form, over the last 12-24 months, Suarez has been as good as them. That is some feat.

I feel you're arguing from the view point of my first paragraph, where as most of the Suarez supporters here are arguing from the second. Its not going to lead to a very constructive debate, all things considered.

Professional Griefer

God damn Gerrard..

Giggsy11

Paul Tergat wrote: »

I dont get where this playing good football is coming from? Its the same slow, turgid crap that England have played for the last few years now.

This England performance >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> England in 2012 and 2010.

Shame about their results though.

Utopia Parkway

Gringo180 wrote: »

Surely Lampard sitting deep could of done a better job than Gerrard. Looking at the England captain last night he just looks awkward and lethargic in possession. Besides Lampard is a much much better player.

Lampard has never been that type of player. Even less so than Gerrard is.

Paul Tergat

Giggsy11 wrote: »

This England performance >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> England in 2012 and 2010.

Shame about their results though.

The only minor difference I see is the rare burst from a player like Sterling. We still cant keep the ball and still rely on a rushed style of play. Defensively we are a good bit worse too. I don't think we have been any better to watch and have lost a lot of our competitive edge with Hodgson in place of Capello.

Id much prefer to be, for example, sat on a couple of draws / 1 win and a loss than the position we are in now. I think our performances have been naive and a little clueless.

Utopia Parkway

Same with England every tournament. They get knocked out and then the complaints start that they can't control a game like Xavi or Pilro can. Well guess what? England don't have any players like that so they have to come up with a different way to play and win games. Even the next great hope, Ross Barkley, is far far closer to Gerrard than he ever will be to Xavi or Pirlo. In 4 years time it will be Barkley getting pelters for not "controlling" the game.

Paul Tergat

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

Same with England every tournament. They get knocked out and then the complaints start that they can't control a game like Xavi or Pilro can. Well guess what? England don't have any players like that so they have to come up with a different way to play and win games. Even the next great hope, Ross Barkley, is far far closer to Gerrard than he ever will be to Xavi or Pirlo. In 4 years time it will be Barkley getting pelters for not "controlling" the game.

Whats your solution?

NIMAN

Well then why doesn't the English FA address how they play the game?

Have a 10yr or 15yr plan, to teach youngsters to play a different type of football.
Don't pick the biggest, strongest players.
Don't throw talented youngsters on the scrapheap because they are still 5ft 2in at age 15. Look at the likes of Maradona, Messi, Xavi, Modric, Sneijder, Silva. All shorties.
Don't base your game on pace and power. Its about more than that. Skill will always win.

rob316

Paul Tergat wrote: »

Whats your solution?

Hire a tactically astute manager, one who at the highest level can work with what he's got. Its not about having the best players its about finding a system that works and using the best players for that system.

Any other country can bench whoever they want no matter how much of a star they are, but the England team for so long has been picked by the media. You need a manager with a pair of balls who thinks for himself. One who isn't afraid to make unpopular decisions.

Hodgson is a weak manager, he was a disgrace how he carried himself at Liverpool. He pandered to how great Rooney and Gerrard are in the media and went around challenging undoubted class like Suarez. A manager utterly out of his depth.

Paul Tergat

rob316 wrote: »

Hire a tactically astute manager, one who at the highest level can work with what he's got. Its not about having the best players its about finding a system that works and using the best players for that system.

Any other country can bench whoever they want no matter how much of a star they are, but the England team for so long has been picked by the media. You need a manager with a pair of balls who thinks for himself. One who isn't afraid to make unpopular decisions.

Is Capello not tactically astute?

I see with your edit above there's a lingering hatred for Hodgson based on his time at Liverpool.

NIMAN

You only have to look at the Golden Generation.
Often they weren't able to accommodate them all in midfield, but they all got played, to the detriment of the team.

Gerrard was dire in the Italy game. He should never have stayed on. He should never have started the Uruguay game, but did cos he's Stevie G. Do you really think Roy had the bottle to drop him? Not a chance.

Yet he got the runner-up in the EPL player of the year award afaik. 2nd best player in the EPL? He wasn't even the 2nd or 3rd best player at Liverpool this season, let alone the entire country. But thats the media hype machine for you.

Knex*

The England job is too big to be giving to a Roy Hodgson. Just like the Liverpool job was, and just like the United job was too big for Moyes.

You need a character. You need someone with the self confidence to match the tactical astuteness. You need someone who walk in and demand respect, not be afraid of big decisions, and not pander to the moans of the press or the players.

LVG is doing that for Holland right now, and he will do it at United next year. The man will literally put his balls on the table and announce he is here, while simultaneously telling the World to fcuk off.

Now, while you don't perhaps need someone as brash at that, you do certainly need someone with authority and confidence. Neither of those are high up on the list of attributes for a Moyes or a Hodgson. There's a reason they made their managerial names with smaller teams who overachieve, rather than big teams who achieve.

They don't have the personality.

Even this England side who went in with perhaps the lowest hype I have ever witnessed, who were literally dragged down in expectation because of the man himself in charge, and Hodgson was still found it.

While language was an issue with Capello, the media got on his case far too quick. But if someone like Mourinho, Fergie, or even Rodgers, had been in charge of this English squad coming into this tournament, I don't think they'd be sitting with zero points with the same complaints being leveled at them.

Their probably never going to get a manager like that, however. I can't see too many top quality foreign managers wanting the gig for a long while yet, not after seeing Capello's tenure, so who's next? Might as well get Harry Redknapp on board, as at least he'll entertain. Players seem to respond to him as well.

Its very hard to know what's next for this England side, but luckily, they do have a few bright players coming through that can help the transition go more smoothly and keep them in major tournaments. Unlikely they'll ever have the same caliber of players that they had circa 04, again though.

Ulysses Gaze

rob316 wrote: »

Hire a tactically astute manager, one who at the highest level can work with what he's got. Its not about having the best players its about finding a system that works and using the best players for that system.

Any other country can bench whoever they want no matter how much of a star they are, but the England team for so long has been picked by the media. You need a manager with a pair of balls who thinks for himself. One who isn't afraid to make unpopular decisions.

Hodgson is a weak manager, he was a disgrace how he carried himself at Liverpool. He pandered to how great Rooney and Gerrard are in the media and went around challenging undoubted class like Suarez. A manager utterly out of his depth.

Well that would have been Capello. But he was too strict for the spoiled Millionaires that were the English Football team.

Maybe hire a manager with experience of International Football management rather than Shoe-Horn a club manager with no experience into the role?

Either that or go with Flash 'arry.

Turtyturd

NIMAN wrote: »

Well then why doesn't the English FA address how they play the game?

Have a 10yr or 15yr plan, to teach youngsters to play a different type of football.
Don't pick the biggest, strongest players.
Don't throw talented youngsters on the scrapheap because they are still 5ft 2in at age 15. Look at the likes of Maradona, Messi, Xavi, Modric, Sneijder, Silva. All shorties.
Don't base your game on pace and power. Its about more than that. Skill will always win.

Didn't they begin this after South Africa?

niallo27

I think Italy will win today. England would need to win by two would they against Costa Rica. The problem is will Italy and Uruguay settle for a draw. Still plenty to play for.

Richard Hillman

NIMAN wrote: »

You only have to look at the Golden Generation.
Often they weren't able to accommodate them all in midfield, but they all got played, to the detriment of the team.

Gerrard was dire in the Italy game. He should never have stayed on. He should never have started the Uruguay game, but did cos he's Stevie G. Do you really think Roy had the bottle to drop him? Not a chance.

Yet he got the runner-up in the EPL player of the year award afaik. 2nd best player in the EPL? He wasn't even the 2nd or 3rd best player at Liverpool this season, let alone the entire country. But thats the media hype machine for you.

What on earth is a "Hype Machine"?

NIMAN

Other countries address issues when they fail.
When Germany had that heavy 5-1 defeat to England in 2001, didn't their FA make immediate plans to make sure it never happened again? They dramatically increased the no of qualified coaches, got better training for them etc etc, and now the results are coming through.

Nuri Sahin

Paul Tergat wrote: »

Given the amount of bs said about Rooney after the first game and even today this is pretty daft.

Well, tbf anyone here would have to be very naive to think there aren't agendas in play from people on either side of the Manchester United vs Liverpool divide and expanding out of that with a few notable names who support other clubs and have demonstrated not one drop of being to able to constructively comment on Liverpool whatsoever, there's probably who the same against your club too.

I've said my team elsewhere, but Barry, Cole (now because of Baines evident drop in form, hindsight heh) and Terry would be in the starting XI. Gerrard (and Lampard for that matter) as I said before should have retired should have retired after Euro 2012. Experience aside, did Lampard deserve a call up? Gerrard for the second half of the season did for sure.

Johnson should be nowhere near the international set up. Here's a curve ball given everyone is seemingly slating him, I actually think as a duo, Sturridge and Welbeck would work well together if going the two striker route. Sterling can play the number ten role. Ox should be the impact sub for now, or if going the 3 forward route, I'd start him with Sterling and Sturridge up front. When Walcott returns from injury, he'll get the nod ahead of Ox you'd imagine . Clyne should get more game time post-World Cup, ditto Shaw. Bit unsure on the CB pairing considering Terry retired (?), Cahill is a cert though. I honestly thought two years ago that Smalling would have established himself as pretty much a starting CB for club and country. I'm on record as to saying he and De Gea is what United's defence should be the foundation of the defence in fact, but Smalling's form is questionable it seems to put it kindly. Hart is useless, but who to replace him him with? I'm not sure on that one, tbh.

I also thought England played reasonably well against Italy, I said so in one of the first few posts in the thread. I'm not fussed that he scored a tap in, Hodgson caving in to pressure to play Rooney centrally after Sturridge had a very tidy game against Italy is bizarre, likewise Sterling who was moved from his CAM spot.

Seems Roy will be forever defended by some people here all because those pesky Liverpool fans don't rate him. Again, as I said before, he's good at a certain level. Liverpool or England was a gigantic step too far.

martingriff

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Well that would have been Capello. But he was too strict for the spoiled Millionaires that were the English Football team.

Maybe hire a manager with experience of International Football management rather than Shoe-Horn a club manager with no experience into the role?

Either that or go with Flash 'arry.

Is that not why they went with Capello but I do agree about strictness. England allways want a way to accomodate there superstars when it is not the best option. Just look at the stike force wanting to play Sterling, Rooney and Sturridge together when all 3 want to plat down the centre mostly. Sturridge and Sterling will do in Liverpool but they are great at interchanging and covering while in England player seem not want to do that. They need to have a formation to get the best fluid option if that means superstars start on the bench and come on then so be it

Umadbrah?

NIMAN wrote: »

Well then why doesn't the English FA address how they play the game?

Have a 10yr or 15yr plan, to teach youngsters to play a different type of football.
Don't pick the biggest, strongest players.
Don't throw talented youngsters on the scrapheap because they are still 5ft 2in at age 15. Look at the likes of Maradona, Messi, Xavi, Modric, Sneijder, Silva. All shorties.
Don't base your game on pace and power. Its about more than that. Skill will always win.

Yeah I agree with this. It's the same here :rolleyes:

mewso

Knex. wrote: »

Its very hard to know what's next for this England side,

Hope Germany don't win and snap up Joachim Löw?

People are very harsh on Hodgson for me. He has an approach to the game that I dislike intensely but has been effective in getting weak teams to over achieve. He shouldn't have gotten the Liverpool job or the England job but in the great tradition of football fans the best response is to hate the manager not the people who hire him. I really thought it was a crazy appointment by the FA. Sure enough though they played turgid but relatively effective football and qualified.

Suddenly over the course of the last season some good young talent has cropped up and landed in the wrong man's hands. I honestly assumed they wouldn't get a look in under Hodgson but he actually folded under the pressure and played some of them. If he had stuck to his awful conservative approach they may well have gotten out of the group.

So what you ended up with was a slightly more attack minded side than normal under Hodgson. That is about it and is probably why this little extra spark of attack prompted the "they have played much better" remarks. It wasn't terrible but it wasn't that great either. As ever the English media have obsessed on one player and position with barely a mention of other players and their performances.

I'm sorry to see them go out to be honest. Always much more fun to watch them progress to the 2nd round/Quarter Final and go out in high drama

Rayne Wooney

Knex. wrote: »

If all three were to retire tomorrow and we had to evaluate them on their body of work so far, I'd agree with you. Those two are far, far apart from anyone playing right now in what they have achieved. Two of the greatest ever.

However, on current form, over the last 12-24 months, Suarez has been as good as them. That is some feat.

I feel you're arguing from the view point of my first paragraph, where as most of the Suarez supporters here are arguing from the second. Its not going to lead to a very constructive debate, all things considered.

Suarez has scored 63 goals in 83 appearances in that time, a bit better than RVP and Aguero.

Ronaldo scored 111 goals in 105 games, Messi scored 101 in 86 games

The fact you set the criteria in Suarez's best seasons and they still completely blow him out of the water, and that's not even their best seasons and they've been doing it consistently and been better than everyone else for maybe 7 seasons now, shows the absolutely colossal gap between them.

There is no debate, Suarez has not been as good as them at all.

Nuri Sahin

NIMAN wrote: »

Other countries address issues when they fail.
When Germany had that heavy 5-1 defeat to England in 2001, didn't their FA make immediate plans to make sure it never happened again? They dramatically increased the no of qualified coaches, got better training for them etc etc, and now the results are coming through.

Yes they did, and a lot of changed happened at grass roots football firstly with coaching being more technique and game reading based, and more geared towards attacking football.

Knex*

Knew I should have said 12 months :pac:

briany

Tangental : 5 stars to whoever's in charge of the little post-coverage music packages they do at RTE. Thought the Eng-Uru one was perfect.

NIMAN

Umadbrah? wrote: »

Yeah I agree with this. It's the same here :rolleyes:

Its one of the sad things that we take most of our football style from England and not Spain

mickmackey1

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Suarez has scored 63 goals in 83 appearances in that time, a bit better than RVP and Aguero.

Ronaldo scored 111 goals in 105 games, Messi scored 101 in 86 games

That's rubbish, my granny would score 20 in la Liga whereas nobody rolls over and dies in the Prem. Agreed though, Ronnie and Messi on a higher level than The Count.

Idbatterim

Hope Germany don't win and snap up Joachim Löw?

why would loew go to england unless the German FA arent happy with his performance at this W.C or he feels he has served enough time with Germany. The Germans players are in a different league to the English one...

Billy86

mickmackey1 wrote: »

That's rubbish, my granny would score 20 in la Liga whereas nobody rolls over and dies in the Prem. Agreed though, Ronnie and Messi on a higher level than The Count.

Agreed that Spain is an incredibly lop sided league (thanks jays us for Atletico this season!) buy also Ronaldo has 39 goals in his last 32 CL games/3 seasons.

Will I Amnt

briany wrote: »

Tangental : 5 stars to whoever's in charge of the little post-coverage music packages they do at RTE. Thought the Eng-Uru one was perfect.

I've seen a few people mention this, I missed the end of the programme, what song did they play out with?

SantryRed

Billy86 wrote: »

Agreed that Spain is an incredibly lop sided league (thanks jays us for Atletico this season!) buy also Ronaldo has 39 goals in his last 32 CL games/3 seasons.

When does it get lopsided? Spanish teams fared a hell of a lot better than the English teams in the Europa League this season too.

SlickRic

lol.

"We are supportive of Roy Hodgson and we have asked him to stay England manager." - Greg Dyke

http://www.itv.com/worldcup/dyke-asks-hodgson-to-stay-on-as-england-manager

Billy86

SantryRed wrote: »

When does it get lopsided? Spanish teams fared a hell of a lot better than the English teams in the Europa League this season too.

When teams are getting 9 points (which would have been a record in England) and finishing second, it is a lopsided league. No doubt some other Spanish sides are very well run and have success despite (though they also take competitions like the Europa much more serious, also because...) the wealth distribution from TV deals, etc is a farce in that country and was/is arguably the biggest disparity in tat regard in the history of the game. 2012/13 was the first time in four years tat either of them failed to et at least 90 points, while in that same timeframe not a single Premiership team managed to break the 90 point mark.

With a little luck, the EPO crackdown miht help keep thins a bit more level in the long term, but that is a whole other matter.

Pro. F

I agree with the idea that if you play Gerrard in the middle that you have to protect him with two hard working CMs as a screen. But I don't think that that system with Gerrard, as used by Liverpool, would have worked. Liverpool we're not able to control possession with it. Every game it was mad pressing and mad attacking until they ran out of energy. That just would not have worked in the heat.

Gerrard is, at best, okay defensively and unreliable in possession when pressed. He should never have been the starting DCM, even if Hodgson had set up with the two complimentary CMs.

Leon Briton and Jack Cork are England's two best DCMs by a long way. They are both very good defensively and, unlike Barry, they are also very good at controlling possession even when pressed. It's ridiculous how they have been completely ignored.

Paul Tergat wrote: »

Our problem is that we dont have good enough players to compete with the best. We can generally get through qualifying ok but when it comes to the step up this current crop is nowehere near good enough.

Competing with the best is one thing. Being unable to handle Uruguay is something else and should not be acceptable if it continues to happen.

rob316

Paul Tergat wrote: »

Is Capello not tactically astute?

I see with your edit above there's a lingering hatred for Hodgson based on his time at Liverpool.

Nope no hate, wrong man at the wrong time at Liverpool. He is a very good midtable manager and should stick with it.

Capello is a top manager but he was never liked or respected by the players and media. He wasn't English, he wasn't one of there own that was the problem.

The media and public clamoured for an English manager after Capello and they went for the bottom of the barrel, Redknapp was the popular choice but the FA wouldn't pay the compensation. I don't rate Redknapp either but he is a damn sight better than Hodgson. Redknapp has some bit of philosophy, Hodgson doesn't.

Brendan Rodgers is the best British manager out there with a clear idea of how he wants to play. They need someone of that ilk but knowing the English FA they will sack Hodgson and appoint Big Sam!

Don't kid yourself this English team are not mediocre, some real good individual talents who excel for there clubs. Teams like Costa Rica, Australia
would love to have some of these players, lesser perceived teams who have given a far better showing in this World Cup.