Do you think masculine qualities are frowned upon in Western societies?

Young Blood

Do you think masculine qualities are frowned upon in Western societies?

Things I would consider the opposite of 'masculine' would be feminism, homosexual rights and some others I can't think of as of now.

I think anything considered excessively masculine in Western society is ridiculed or is labelled as a veil for Homosexuality.

What do you guys think?

CrookedJack

You haven't said what you consider to be masculine qualities, how can we say if they are frowned upon?

In reality, "masculine qualities" are what a society collectively agrees are the ideal behaviours of men. These do change over time, so if you have an out-dated view of masculinity then yes, what you see as positive masculine qualities are probably being frowned upon.

For instance, I'm sure that in bygone era's the ability to "control your woman" was seen as a particularly manly quality. Now, the ability to engage with women as actual human beings without feeling threatened is seen as being a positive characteristic for a man

I suspect from the tone of your post you probably disagree with the modern, more nuanced expectations for masculinity

Young Blood

I''l give you an example. There's currently an ad on Q fm. It's for a dog grooming service, King of Paws.

The ad goes like this. A woman phones up ad tries to make an appointment for her husband. The guy at the other end says oh sorry, we don't accept 'husbands'.

The fact that an ad like that is seen as a bit of banter is offensive.

If the shoe was on the other foot and it was women who were been joked about, there would be uproar.

I think it reflects the culture in Western societies. Dehumanize men, ridicule them and make them look stupid.

CrookedJack

Well thats quite different from frowning upon masculine qualities, qualities you still haven't listed yet by the way.

I certainly so think that men can be portrayed badly in the media and in advertising especially. But you have to remember what advertising is, it is a message targeted at a specific market in order to get them to purchase a product/service. I imagine that most of the adverts that "dehumanise men" are aimed at women, and so may be perceived completely differently by their intended audience. Also i'd be surprised if most of the key decision makers in most of the companies involved weren't men. So that opens another question about why are men ridiculing themselves to sell things to a female market?

dharma200

You mention homosexuality twice in your op.
It is possible to be homosexual and masculine.
You also mention feminism. There are many masculine men who over the years have understood and worked towards equal rights.
I think maybe you are trying to say something but are not being clear about it.

Young Blood

If the same ad was broadcast in some middle-eastern countries, the station would be shut and the people behind it would be jailed.

I think you can draw inferences from this as to what male characteristics are. If the ad is anything to go by, male qualities must be consistent with those of animals.

Aggressive, territorial, pride etc.

Some of these characteristics above were once considered qualities or virtues by gone cultures such as those of the Samurai or the Apachi.

The only male 'qualities' I see highlighted in western society are a subservient male, who wheels his buggy around for the wife.

I've had quite a few friends from Muslim countries who opened up to me and laughed and ridiculed how Western men are and I tend to agree with them.

CrookedJack

Young Blood wrote: »

If the same ad was broadcast in some middle-eastern countries, the station would be shut and the people behind it would be jailed.

I think you can draw inferences from this as to what male characteristics are. If the ad is anything to go by, male qualities must be consistent with those of animals.

Aggressive, territorial, pride etc.

Some of these characteristics above were once considered qualities or virtues by gone cultures such as those of the Samurai or the Apachi.

The only male 'qualities' I see highlighted in western society are a subservient male, who wheels his buggy around for the wife.

I've had quite a few friends from Muslim countries who opened up to me and laughed and ridiculed how Western men are and I tend to agree with them.

Ok, so now we get to what you're really saying then.

You feel that aggression, territoriality and pride are masculine qualities, and that they are frowned upon. well you're not exactly wrong, They were all viewed as positive characteristics by medieval or stone-age societies like the Samurai or Apache. And now a days they are less favoured. Similarly ritual suicide, as practised by the Samurai, is not encouraged these days and in modern times we have indoor plumbing and metal tools unlike the Apache. I think you have a very silly, rose-tinted view of those societies really.

As for your other points, well i really don't want Irish society to look to Muslim countries for guidance on gender roles, and i don't really think you do either. I mean, imagine if someone was to treat your mother the way women are treated in Afghanistan? or to throw acid in your daughters face just for going to school?

Also, I'd like to point out that gay men can be just as aggressive, territorial and proud as straight men. In fact they even have a parade about it.

In reality you don't really want to live in a Muslim state, or feudal times, what you're really saying is that you're not equipped to live in modern society. You lack the ability to be a loving and caring father without feeling emasculated, you lack the ability to accept peoples sexuality because you feel you might be judged for it, you lack the ability to treat women as equal humans because you feel they might reject you if they realised you can compete in modern life.

This is OK, you're not alone in this, but be aware you're an anachronism and society will only move further in directions you do not like. You probably should start thinking of a coping strategy.

Young Blood

CrookedJack wrote: »

This is OK, you're not alone in this, but be aware you're an anachronism and society will only move further in directions you do not like. You probably should start thinking of a coping strategy.

I think society works in cycles and we will return to those ways in some aspect but not in entirety. When society starts to treat men like second class citizens it's only a matter of time before men abandon the values of that society and seek to adopt new ones where men's virtues are respected. And the past will be where they turn to when they seek those virtues.

CrookedJack

Young Blood wrote: »

I think society works in cycles and we will return to those ways in some aspect but not in entirety. When society starts to treat men like second class citizens it's only a matter of time before men abandon the values of that society and seek to adopt new ones where men's virtues are respected. And the past will be where they turn to when they seek those virtues.

Well not really. Who do you think young boys are going to use as their example for masculinity? It will be their father, yes the one you see pushing the buggy, caring for his children and spending more time and being more involved in their lives than ever before. That will set the pattern for how a man should behave in the child's mind, and that is the man he will strive to be when he grows up.

Not the aggressive, territorial, increasingly isolated he-man you seem to admire. Why would any child want to be like those men who will be increasingly unable to function at more than a basic level in society?

So in that case, barring some Mad Max style global catastrophe, how would we ever revert back to primitive, medieval values? Just saying you believe it is cyclical means nothing, there's no evidence at that it is.

Young Blood

CrookedJack wrote: »

Well not really. Who do you think young boys are going to use as their example for masculinity? It will be their father, yes the one you see pushing the buggy, caring for his children and spending more time and being more involved in their lives than ever before. That will set the pattern for how a man should behave in the child's mind, and that is the man he will strive to be when he grows up.

Not the aggressive, territorial, increasingly isolated he-man you seem to admire. Why would any child want to be like those men who will be increasingly unable to function at more than a basic level in society?

So in that case, barring some Mad Max style global catastrophe, how would we ever revert back to primitive, medieval values? Just saying you believe it is cyclical means nothing, there's no evidence at that it is.

By your analysis, if we continue to evolve, we will eventually live in a near perfect society. Tell me this, if the past has acted as a modle for the future, then how come single parents are now more common than ever when such things were frowned upon by the last generation?

The future generations will judge our values with whether or not those values were practiced during a time of prosperity or great depression. An example would be democracy during the Weimer Republic in Germany and how it was associated with the Great Depression which lead to the rise of Nazism.

CrookedJack

Young Blood wrote: »

By your analysis, if we continue to evolve, we will eventually live in a near perfect society. Tell me this, if the past has acted as a modle for the future, then how come single parents are now more common than ever when such things were frowned upon by the last generation?

The future generations will judge our values with whether or not those values were practiced during a time of prosperity or great depression. An example would be democracy during the Weimer Republic in Germany and how it was associated with the Great Depression which lead to the rise of Nazism.

A perfect society. That's a strange way to put it. Because it wouldn't be a perfect society for you, you would like one where men dominate women and are judged by how aggressive and proud they are, rather than by how much they enrich the lives of those around them.

It's as if you realise that the modern way is better, but you are just unable to embrace it, is that true?

As for "the past being the modle for the future" well that's pretty obvious - if you are unaware how with technological advances in the industrial revolution lead to less subsistence farming and food surpluses, lead to increased access to education for common folk.

Then a series of pretty big wars in the early part of the century causing increased women working in previously male only jobs, leading to the feminist revolution in the sixties and seventies, leading to unmarried mothers, cohabiting and civil unions in our time. If you can't see a very clear link from generation to generation with each successive taking on the more of the previous and expanding them, well then i think you are just willfully ignoring the obvious

Young Blood

CrookedJack wrote: »

A perfect society. That's a strange way to put it. Because it wouldn't be a perfect society for you, you would like one where men dominate women and are judged by how aggressive and proud they are, rather than by how much they enrich the lives of those around them.

It's as if you realise that the modern way is better, but you are just unable to embrace it, is that true?

As for "the past being the modle for the future" well that's pretty obvious - if you are unaware how with technological advances in the industrial revolution lead to less subsistence farming and food surpluses, lead to increased access to education for common folk.

Then a series of pretty big wars in the early part of the century causing increased women working in previously male only jobs, leading to the feminist revolution in the sixties and seventies, leading to unmarried mothers, cohabiting and civil unions in our time. If you can't see a very clear link from generation to generation with each successive taking on the more of the previous and expanding them, well then i think you are just willfully ignoring the obvious

Emerging nations in the East adopt Western customs and eat in restaurants such as McDonald’s and Starbucks even though the dog on the street knows eating in McDonald’s is bad for you. But as long as it looks cool and modern people will be happy to be seen there in countries such as China, South Korea and Philippines. That doesn’t seem like progress to me.

You can draw comparisons between this and other ‘perfect practices’ the West indulges in. But if I disagree we these practices and shun what’s considered modern, I will be ridiculed and expected to conform.

Why should I confirm to what society deems appropriate or modern since from the example above, society itself engages in hypocrisy? Society has no business telling a man how he should behave and it especially has no business ridiculing him if he decides to embark on his own journey through life, albeit a journey that conflicts with what ‘society’ deems appropriate.

I don’t expect society to behave in anyway, I expect society to respect my decision to live a certain life even if it may appear chauvinistic at times. That is my right and I won’t let allow it to be ridiculed by the corporate controlled West.

CrookedJack

Young Blood wrote: »

You can draw comparisons between this and other ‘perfect practices’ the West indulges in. But if I disagree we these practices and shun what’s considered modern, I will be ridiculed and expected to conform.

Why should I confirm to what society deems appropriate or modern since from the example above, society itself engages in hypocrisy? Society has no business telling a man how he should behave and it especially has no business ridiculing him if he decides to embark on his own journey through life, albeit a journey that conflicts with what ‘society’ deems appropriate.

I don’t expect society to behave in anyway, I expect society to respect my decision to live a certain life even if it may appear chauvinistic at times. That is my right and I won’t let allow it to be ridiculed by the corporate controlled West.

You're using the word "society" as if it is some dictator, or elite group handing down the rules from on high.That isn't the case, society is all of us, collectively. it's you friends, family, everyone you know, all the people around you.

You don't need to conform to what society deems appropriate, you can behave inappropriately if you like but be aware that social groups take many actions to deter aberrant behaviour ranging from derision and ridicule to punishment and incarceration.

Just as, in your medieval utopia a homosexual, loving father who was not afraid of women would be ridiculed, isolated and possibly punished.

As i said before you are an anachronism and need to develop some way to reconcile with the modern world.

Young Blood

I would like to reconcile with the modern world but sometimes, scars run too deep, and great change would have to first bring about great destruction.

CrookedJack

Young Blood wrote: »

I would like to reconcile with the modern world but sometimes, scars run too deep, and great change would have to first bring about great destruction.

I can't make any sense of this.

Young Blood

CrookedJack wrote: »

Similarly ritual suicide, as practised by the Samurai, is not encouraged these days and in modern times we have indoor plumbing and metal tools unlike the Apache. I think you have a very silly, rose-tinted view of those societies really.

You say ritual suicide is not encouraged today but it's modern alternative is hardly the perfect solution. What is the point of pro longing life into old age?

CrookedJack wrote: »

I mean, imagine if someone was to treat your mother the way women are treated in Afghanistan? or to throw acid in your daughters face just for going to school?

The actions of the Taliban are not the actions of Muslims at large.

CrookedJack wrote: »

In reality you don't really want to live in a Muslim state, or feudal times, what you're really saying is that you're not equipped to live in modern society. You lack the ability to be a loving and caring father without feeling emasculated, you lack the ability to accept peoples sexuality because you feel you might be judged for it, you lack the ability to treat women as equal humans because you feel they might reject you if they realised you can compete in modern life.

This is OK, you're not alone in this, but be aware you're an anachronism and society will only move further in directions you do not like. You probably should start thinking of a coping strategy.

Are you saying people like me don't serve a purpose? Are you saying man's ultimate purpose is become a father and that a bachelor serves no purpose?

CrookedJack

Young Blood wrote: »

You say ritual suicide is not encouraged today but it's modern alternative is hardly the perfect solution. What is the point of pro longing life into old age?

Well considering the modern alternative to ritual suicide is simply not committing ritual suicide, then yes it is the perfect solution to that specific issue. And the point of prolonging life is simply that, to prolong life which in almost every situation is preferable to not prolonging life, but of course you know this and are just being facetious and try to distract from the real debate.

Young Blood wrote: »

The actions of the Taliban are not the actions of Muslims at large.

Agreed. They are just indicative of the more extreme, medieval, archaic, male-dominated elements of Muslim society.

Young Blood wrote: »

Are you saying people like me don't serve a purpose? Are you saying man's ultimate purpose is become a father and that a bachelor serves no purpose?

I am saying that people like you will find less and less of a place in our society, aggression and territoriality, your professed masculine quality are frowned upon, and will only be more so. This will be true whether you are a father or not.

Torakx

That's understandable.
I am guessing YoungBlood you are an intuitive and possibly introvert to boot. Which makes for a lot of confusing thoughts when they are expressed to others.
I know this because I live it myself every day
Most things I say do not come out as a good explanation for what I think or fully represent the extent of my thoughts.
But here goes anyway

I think i have a fair idea of what Young blood is on about. Or i have my own version that this thread topic struck a cord with.
The context helps me more than the wording always.

I think you are correct that masculine traits may be frowned upon more and more in western society.
And I have a theory on why.

First of all the reason trends occur in society or changes, is because we mimic each other and our role models.
This is how we build our references of our reality and how we learn to interact with others.

So.. who are our role models?
Well turn on the TV and take a look.
That box in your living room is the source of the majority of social conditioning I think. But it goes much further.
Think about clothes shopping even. If all the shops are selling combats, you can bet your ass lots more people will be wearing combats. That one effects me a lot, because it is bloody impossible now to find any shop in Dublin that sells fashionable combats! I like the pockets Very handy!
So I am now redundant fashion wise and either have to wear jeans or make do with camping shops( bleh) or wear my old ones.

So fashion on the main street in a strong way also dictates human behaviour.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057231023
Heres a thread in the CT forum regarding femenism and sociopolitical war.
I don't subscribe to this theory(yet I keep an open mind), but it's worth noting that the femenist movement may have been started due to a certain famous psychiatrists/psychologists son showing american corporations how to sell more tobacco. Like twice as much!

The bonus(if one thinks it so) is that the family unit that the churches used to control populations, was broken this way too.
Or at least the wedge was introduced, between the husband and the wife.
With traditions in mind.

What i noticed from living all over the south of Ireland compared to the north of Ireland, was that the men dressed much more feminine compared to the south.
Lots of pink shirts and really tight trousers and shirts or t-shirts.
This is known to be what is called fashionable. With the times.
However I see this as a knock on effect from the UK fashion trends. And i see the UK fashion trends as a knock on effect of the American tends in some ways, due to hollywood having a monopoly in the west with social conditioning.

So with the establishment of gay rights and womens rights in the west, I see these changes taking place on many levels.
How I feel about it? Well I want my combats back lol

The main point I wanted to pose and is the first thing I considered was the emasculation of men.
While I am perfectly happy with the whole gay liberation and womens liberation, I also suspect their are alterior motives behind some groups activities to liberate.
Much like the tobacco situation, be that real or not.

One such intention maybe to pacify males in order to ensure there is no means of physical resistance to government control.
There is never going to be revolutions like their used to be, because men and women are now equal according to society. Men need to adopt new traits to adapt. According to society.
Aggression and strength is only acceptable for a cause that is seen as just by those who care. Or even better, find a person who is paid to deal with our problems. Like a court where we may even find some justice.

When it comes to being useful to our parents(the state), tradition male traits are of no use to government. And when they are, it is for killing other people in other countries. Not our own. So the males at home need to act more like women. Excuse my stereotyping! I am using this as an extreme to explain.
they need to be pacified and domesticated in order to keep control.
The last few straglers will be seen as radical and agressive and animalistic. needing to be locked away.
Consider vigilantes preventing drug dealers from dealing to children for example. They use agression and violence. The drug dealers get sorted out extremely fast by the community, usually males(sorry ladies).
This is the dirty work the paid police can't and won't do.
This is what must be stopped and why males need to be pacified. Or so it seems.
The result of western societies micro management and pacification of the public in general, is that there are less uprisings by far over the decades this takes place.Which traditionally were lead by men and now by both men and women and nealry always now a peacefull protest.
I pray for a destructive riot against parliament
It's easier if everyone has the same rights. You can control the whole lot with blanket rules and if you can squeeze the two genders together! well, that is the perfect example of a model citizen.
Both male and female qualities in the one package. All laws applied equally, argueably less male agression and more efeminite qualities, due to the current male situation.
Which links into a bit of a crazy sounding theory I have with the medical industry and antibiotics. But that is like a book worth of writing..

The problem i see still, is that these wars being fought for example. it is still mostly males doing all the killing of innocents. When will women start helping out with the killing? and I mean 50/50 with recruit counts.
Do we males still have to do that too?
If it's by choice, then consider my speel on social conditioning.
As they joke about of George R R Martins quotes...

"All men must die".

So the short version ahaha
Yes i think "male" qualities are frowned upon by western society.
By frowned upon, I mean that they are slowly being diluted, so the two genders can be less apart.
The same is being applied to women in the opposite way.
Androgeny appears to be the goal overall.
And if you want to learn about that agenda, you might find more helpful theories and research through the CT forum and community.

Maybe a bit of a controversial post fromme. I can sometimes find it hard to tell...
Hope it hasn't offended anyone, I know how people can take offence at any label misrepresented or used even. And I just intend to say what i think. What i think is going on, in no way reflects my feelings towards any of the groups of people i mentioned, like homosexuals and women.
I personally believe there is no right or wrong. There is only IS.

Black Swan

Young Blood wrote: »

Do you think masculine qualities are frowned upon in Western societies?

Western culture is complex and diverse. To assume "masculine qualities are frowned upon" is too broad sweeping, ignoring differing trends, which may also be in contradiction with each other.

Granted that film is only one medium of popular culture, and certainly not an all-encompassing statement; but can be useful for discussion purposes. For example, Belfast born Liam Neeson has been a very popular action-drama hero in several films, especially "Taken" and its recent sequel. He is typecast in very masculine roles and highly popular as such. He is the classic strong silent type of male, not particularly handsome, but very attractive to many women I know. Although anecdotal, we could cite several other popular masculine action hero types, many from comic book origins now in film.

Although I am not a big fan of the romance novel genre, you will find many male lead characters similar to Liam Neeson once again in this written fictional medium. And they are very popular among their female readers, or they would fail to sell.

Certainly there are roles for males in the popular media that vary from the typical masculine image, but to suggest that "masculine qualities are frowned upon in Western societies" generally would be misleading, and in some cases spurious.

Personally I agree with "Vive la différence" between males and females, and masculine males have their place in my perception of western culture.