Central Heating controls

frankmul

2011 wrote: »

My understanding was that Part L was for "Conservation of Fuel and Energy - Buildings other than Dwellings" and as such would not apply.

Link

Perhaps I am missing something ?

I was thinking of this http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,19069,en.pdf
There might be other that are more revelant?

If a 3 channel programmer is fitted and the zone valves are wired to allow them to communicate with the boiler then that would be meet part L for this level of installation and I would be happy to leave that job

I would think about fitting a Zonevalve and cylinder stat instead of the mechanical hot water control.

Part L is pointless and is only there to let people think their doing a good job.

I often see homes with all the gear and no idea as the controls are often wired wrong or rarely explained to home owners, room stats in positions that hinder efficiency and controllability.

Now if Part L was policed to maximise efficiency and correct use of heating controls then we'd be sucking diesel.

I went to a boiler that was very advanced, it had a inbuilt programmer that would allow monitoring of daily usage, allow the home owner to set by the hour the home temp, it would precisely monitor the gas usage against the monitored usage to find the most efficient settings, I really high end boiler.

The internal programmer was switched off and there was just a switch on the wall that had: heating on off written on it in felt tip .

frankmul

gary71 wrote: »

If a 3 channel programmer is fitted and the zone valves are wired to allow them to communicate with the boiler then that would be meet part L for this level of installation and I would be happy to leave that job

I would think about fitting a Zonevalve and cylinder stat instead of the mechanical hot water control.

Part L is pointless and is only there to let people think their doing a good job.

I often see homes with all the gear and no idea as the controls are often wired wrong or rarely explained to home owners, room stats in positions that hinder efficiency and controllability.

Now if Part P was policed to maximise efficiency and correct use of heating controls then we'd be sucking diesel.

I went to a boiler that was very advanced, it had a inbuilt programmer that would allow monitoring of daily usage, allow the home owner to set by the hour the home temp, it would precisely monitor the gas usage against the monitored usage to find the most efficient settings, I really high end boiler.

The internal programmer was switched off and there was just a switch on the wall that had: heating on off written on it in felt tip .

Would you have a link for part p, I agree that putting in things just to comply with regulations and not connecting them properly is a waste of time and money.
I was just wondering if this job should have been completed originally to comply with part L?

Sir Arthur Daley

frankmul wrote: »

I was just wondering if this job should have been completed originally to comply with part L?

All depends on the year it was completed.

frankmul

frankmul wrote: »

Would you have a link for part p, I agree that putting in things just to comply with regulations and not connecting them properly is a waste of time and money.
I was just wondering if this job should have been completed originally to comply with part L?

Forgive me I meant Part L, Part P is for the UK and allows plumbers to transfer their skills to work as electricians as it's easy to train up plumbers to be sparks.


The OPs job would have complied pretty much with PartL if it had been wired correctly, it's the bad wiring and lack of a 3 channel programmer that let it down.

The system bypass is good working practise and doesn't come under PartL

frankmul

gary71 wrote: »

Forgive me I meant Part L, Part P is for the UK and allows plumbers to transfer their skills to work as electricians as it's easy to train up plumbers to be sparks.

Ouch!

frankmul

frankmul wrote: »

Ouch!

K.Flyer

Popcorn and Diet Coke at the ready

shane 007

K.Flyer wrote: »

Popcorn and Diet Coke at the ready

Me too for a change
I've gone for full sugar though, this could be a late one....

Dtp1979

An eerie silence..... The nation holds it's breath ........

Sir Arthur Daley

I thought Mrs. Browns Boys D Movie is not out till Friday.

n0brain3r

Not wanting to add fuel to the fire( couldn't help it ) but the boiler was installed in 2007 but commissioned in 2008 if it makes any odds? I'm going to try run the additional wires to the junction box in the hot press and I'll remove the head of the TRV for now than should be as good as a bypass till I can afford to have it checked out. A quick question it's been serviced at least 4 times by Bord Gas and then Airtricity but none of this was ever pointed out to me should it of been?

frankmul

n0brain3r wrote: »

A quick question it's been serviced at least 4 times by Bord Gas and then Airtricity but none of this was ever pointed out to me should it of been?

Would bord gais or airtricity have any need to check out the hot press. I assume that they were there to service the boiler, the rest of the pipe work is your concern.

n0brain3r

I'm not trying to point fingers just wondering. Should it of been commissioned as it was?

n0brain3r

n0brain3r wrote: »

Not wanting to add fuel to the fire( couldn't help it ) but the boiler was installed in 2007 but commissioned in 2008 if it makes any odds? I'm going to try run the additional wires to the junction box in the hot press and I'll remove the head of the TRV for now than should be as good as a bypass till I can afford to have it checked out. A quick question it's been serviced at least 4 times by Bord Gas and then Airtricity but none of this was ever pointed out to me should it of been?

Truth be told nobody cares.

It should of been explained to you, but from my own experiences homeowners don't want to know and as there is little trust in tradesmen as homeowners assume that any advice is a ploy to extract cash.

These faults are usually delt with when they become a issue

I would leave the head of the tap stat on as Temperture control is important and rewire it ASAP then when you use your heating the boiler interlock is in play and your hot water is timed.

n0brain3r

n0brain3r wrote: »

I'm not trying to point fingers just wondering. Should it of been commissioned as it was?

Who do you blame? The lack of system bypass is a small faux par compared to the incorrect wiring, how would a RGI spot the wiring as it's mainly sparks who do heating wiring.

I like that SEI put effort in to checking new installs and I have seen a better quality of work because of it, I only wish there was more policing of the heating industry because the lack of it costs homeowners a fortune.

frankmul

frankmul wrote: »

Would bord gais or airtricity have any need to check out the hot press. I assume that they were there to service the boiler, the rest of the pipe work is your concern.

Somehow it has become the norm for someone to work on a boiler but have absolutely no idea what the other bits do.

You can't service a central heating system properly without checking all the important components.

frankmul

That is what I was wondering, I can't answer that. There might be someone else able to help

n0brain3r

Thanks guys not looking to blame anyone just genuinely curious that's all. I suppose the RGI might of noticed the HW wasn't interlocked and either where the stats if tested but I guess this isn't part of commissioning as its sparks work?

n0brain3r

Last question I promise What wire do I ask for in the wholesalers would single core 1.5mm cut it?

Sir Arthur Daley

n0brain3r wrote: »

Last question I promise What wire do I ask for in the wholesalers would single core 1.5mm cut it?

What you want to wire?

n0brain3r

The additional wires from the clock to the hot press to wire the system to s plan.

Sir Arthur Daley

You are short four wires to do what you want to do.

• 1 to power 2nd ch stat .
• 1 to power hw tank stat thus controlling hw valve when fitted.
• 2 to return the boiler signal from auxiliary contacts on mv.

Just read the pdf of the boiler and it says it has external controls and am i right in saying 1 and 3 should be the auxillarys of the mvs? It says to put the room thermostats in there but if you had a mv faulty you are back to the problem of non circulation. Is your gas boiler wired wrong, are you switching its permanent supply which is wrong?

Thinking back over how it was wired that electrician made huge flaws. Say the 2 ch zones and hw zones got satisfied for heat which is highly possible, you are depending on the boilers internal bypass which can block up as Gary said. He should have had least used the auxiliarys of the mv cause at least if one or two valves get satisfied or go faulty they wont be sending signal to switch on the boiler.

What would happen then would it start pitching if it had a separate fill and expansion, could the extreme happen and a tank melt if this happens for a long period? interesting to hear other view on that, and if it hadn't the pump would only get excessively hot as it couldn't circulate and this would stay the same until the timer times out or a stat calls again.

n0brain3r

I'll see can I get at the electrics and confirm but a Kitchen unit was built flush around the boiler against MI from what I can see in the manual and I've no access to the sides of the boiler.

Is there a specific gauge or type of wire I should ask for?

Sir Arthur Daley

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

You are short four wires to do what you want to do.

• 1 to power 2nd ch stat .
• 1 to power hw tank stat thus controlling hw valve when fitted.
• 2 to return the boiler signal from auxiliary contacts on mv.

Just read the pdf of the boiler and it says it has external controls and am i right in saying 1 and 3 should be the auxillarys of the mvs? It says to put the room thermostats in there but if you had a mv faulty you are back to the problem of non circulation. Is your gas boiler wired wrong, are you switching its permanent supply which is wrong?

Thinking back over how it was wired that electrician made huge flaws. Say the 2 ch zones and hw zones got satisfied for heat which is highly possible, you are depending on the boilers internal bypass which can block up as Gary said. He should have had least used the auxiliarys of the mv cause at least if one or two valves get satisfied or go faulty they wont be sending signal to switch on the boiler.

What would happen then would it start pitching if it had a separate fill and expansion, could the extreme happen and a tank melt if this happens for a long period? interesting to hear other view on that, and if it hadn't the pump would only get excessively hot as it couldn't circulate and this would stay the same until the timer times out or a stat calls again.

When wiring gas central heating the starting point is always the boiler manufactures instructions, heating wiring is regimented but manufactures can adapt the S plan, Y plan and w plan wiring to suit their boilers particular needs.

A common mistake made by some sparks is to wire a boiler there own way ignoring the boilers requirements, for instance low voltage/no voltage switching has been around for over 20 years but I get a lot of abuse(and I'm a lovely fella) when I explain this concept to modern day sparks who just want to put 240 on the auxiliary.

The MI determines the requirement of a permanent live, this particular boiler shows the switching through the external controls before the boiler, older boilers didn't always have pump, fan overruns and inbuilt frost stats that would of required a permanent live.

Not wiring the boiler interlock is the biggest problem as it allows the boilers pump to burn out, can generate noise issues, wastes fuel and is just complete nonsense. Safety wise the boiler would shut down before anything really naughty happened.

n0brain3r

So I needn't worry about how the boiler is wired internally and my plan is to wire to S plan and allow the MV to control the boiler via their AUX contacts when the CH program runs.

The HW function will power the boiler directly and I'll put an auto bypass and 2 port MV with cylinder stat on my wish list!

I've attached a pic of the internal wiring and it looks to be stock as in the install instructions.

Dtp1979

OP, are you RGI? Why are you going inside your boiler?

n0brain3r

There's a loaded question. I didn't go inside the boiler the electrics slide out from the front of it.

Dtp1979

n0brain3r wrote: »

There's a loaded question. I didn't go inside the boiler the electrics slide out from the front of it.

Doesn't matter OP.

If your not a RGI or a Sparks then take the information you've been given and have the right tradesmen put this right for you so you can go back to having a quite life.

People don't know what they don't know and can turn something simple in to a problem just like the original wiring of this boiler.