Central Heating controls

n0brain3r

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Doesn't matter OP.

gary71 wrote: »

If your not a RGI or a Sparks then take the information you've been given and have the right tradesmen put this right for you so you can go back to having a quite life.

People don't know what they don't and can turn something simple in to a problem just like the original wiring of this boiler.

Will do. Just for my understanding does the sparks have to be RGI too?

n0brain3r

n0brain3r wrote: »

Will do. Just for my understanding does the sparks have to be RGI too?

Now That's a loaded question.

Technically yes as gasworks is defined by any work that requires a tool.

But as most RGIs don't take responsibility for wiring it's a bit of a nonsense.

The real answer is to get someone who is competent to do the work.

n0brain3r

I've a sparks lined up to do the terminating but I'll run the wires thanks again to everyone who helped

Sir Arthur Daley

n0brain3r wrote: »

I've attached a pic of the internal wiring and it looks to be stock as in the install instructions.

In the picture you attached is the connector where that link will be removed and replaced with the auxiliary mv contacts. This should have been the way from first day.
Op you said your neighbours house is done the same are you living in a housing estate with possibly a large number of houses done the same?

n0brain3r

Yeah largish estate about 200 houses all have the same boiler going by the flue.

Sir Arthur Daley

n0brain3r wrote: »

Yeah largish estate about 200 houses all have the same boiler going by the flue.

Lets hope they are not all the same or else you are living in a minefield :eek:

frankmul

gary71 wrote: »

Who do you blame?

It may be the rgi that did the work, it probably was a sparks but someone signed off to say the work was done to regulation. That's who should be blamed. Op, good luck trying to find them!

n0brain3r

I've no interest in pursuing the guy but I have the original signed Declaration of Conformance and current contact details. I thought it was a grey area though falling between the sparks and RGI so no one individual was a fault.

Would the install be considered non-compliant? My understanding is that it's safe from a gas perspective but not conducive to a long lasting boiler!

Sir Arthur Daley

frankmul wrote: »

it probably was a sparks but someone signed off to say the work was done to regulation. That's who should be blamed.

Signed off what do you mean?

frankmul

frankmul wrote: »

It may be the rgi that did the work, it probably was a sparks but someone signed off to say the work was done to regulation. That's who should be blamed. Op, good luck trying to find them!

The RGI signed the cert so the buck stops with him but other than trust how does a RGI who may not understand wiring know if the Sparks has done his job?

It maybe after a death or explosion that the liability question between the two trades is really answered.

There's a lot of good teams of RGIs and Electricians who communicate well together but their is also electricians who take no ownership of the performance or controllability of a heating install because they aren't the ones signing off on the job.


Again where I'm from only one trade is responsible for heating installs, by splitting the job as ye do here it can make things difficult.

n0brain3r

n0brain3r wrote: »

I've no interest in pursuing the guy but I have the original signed Declaration of Conformance and current contact details. I thought it was a grey area though falling between the sparks and RGI so no one individual was a fault.

Would the install be considered non-compliant? My understanding is that it's safe from a gas perspective but not conducive to a long lasting boiler!

It's not fitted asper manufactures instruction so it's not to currant standards, the issues are ones of controllability, efficiency and longevity of the boiler.

Sir Arthur Daley

gary71 wrote: »

The RGI signed the cert so the buck stops with him but other than trust how does a RGI who may not understand wiring know if the Sparks has done his job?

Is an RGI possibly incompetent to wire a full installation? just going by your post here?

Sir Arthur Daley

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Is an RGI possibly incompetent to wire a full installation? just going by your post here?

There are RGIs who don't wish to have anything to do with wiring but It's dependant on the RGI, a lot of RGIs can easily wire a heating system as it's not rocket science but it generates a lot of grief on sites or jobs as some electricians don't like it, so I find most RGIs will let the sparks do it for a quite life.

I like the jobs where both trades learn from each other.

Sir Arthur Daley

gary71 wrote: »

I like the jobs where both trades learn from each other.

Definitely I am of the same thinking, bottom line is a non RGI cannot wire a gas boiler so how far does one go in wiring an installation to hand over to a RGI?
Would say an external joint box be a solution where the 2 trades marry their wiring? But saying that are we back to trusting the electricians wiring which may not be correct as we see in this case and as the RGI is the one signing off its his neck on the line.

Sir Arthur Daley

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Definitely I am of the same thinking, bottom line is a non RGI cannot wire a gas boiler so how far does one go in wiring an installation to hand over to a RGI?
Would say an external joint box be a solution where the 2 trades marry their wiring? But saying that are we back to trusting the electricians wiring which may not be correct as we see in this case and as the RGI is the one signing off its his neck on the line.

I get to see a lot of installs and the successful ones are those where trades listen to each other irrespective of the job their doing.

I see no problem with sparks wiring boilers after a quick chit chat with the installer or if the RGI wants to wire it himself the sparks should be happy to leave the fusible switched spur under the boiler.

There is a lot of misuse with heating controls the worst being the position of the room stats, i'v seen them over rads, in bookcases, 7foot up the wall, by cookers, by the front door and my favourite over a toaster so no heating during breakfast, then you have the neutral of the room stat not being wired so you lose the anticipator which drives homeowners cracked .

There has to be a element of common sense in the approach to installs and that's where the importance of communication kicks in.

Sir Arthur Daley

gary71 wrote: »

.

There has to be a element of common sense in the approach to installs and that's where the importance of communication kicks in.

Definitely and one solution would be working drawings but alot of electricians are head strong and don't want to be told how an installation should be wired.
In my opinion since an non RGI cannot wire a gas boiler a RGI should be the sole person to wire an installation. Let the electrician wire the switch fuse outlet and leave the RGI off from there, that seems more pratical.

Sir Arthur Daley

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Definitely and one solution would be working drawings but alot of electricians are head strong and don't want to be told how an installation should be wired.
In my opinion since an non RGI cannot wire a gas boiler a RGI should be the sole person to wire an installation. Let the electrician wire the switch fuse outlet and leave the RGI off from there, that seems more pratical.

As a heating engineer I think only RGIs should be wiring heating systems:eek: not because i'v a inbuilt hatred for sparks but if one person does the job then over time you learn how the controls interact with each other and become better at designing a heating system that will get the best out of the plumbing and wiring.

As for working drawing, as you don't have W or Y plans here (I can't think of ever seeing a 3 port valve)and your only wiring S-plans, any sparks who doesn't know how to wire a S-plan shouldn't be going near heating wiring and the same goes for RGI's.

S-plans are simplistic, they are the backbone of heating systems here and the basic design has remained unchanged for over 40/50 years, as gas boilers have developed the flavour of install has changed but the base ingredients are the same, the MI will tell you what to do.

MI give full wiring instructions and there's always someone like me from the manufactures to happily explain how a particular boiler should be wired.

Bruthal

Let them at it, far to complex for electrical personnel.

frankmul

gary71 wrote: »

But as most RGIs don't take responsibility for wiring it's a bit of a nonsense.

What equipment does a Declaration of Conformance Certificate that a RGI fill out cover?

Bruthal

Bruthal wrote: »

Let them at it, far to complex for electrical personnel.

Not really especially if the manual is looked at.

It would be silly to say sparks can't wire a heating system.

At the moment my boiler comes with the ability to run at two different temperatures, to do this you only have to wire the demand from the cylinder MV to a second link on the boiler and fit a outdoor sensor, the only trade wiring this is RGIs I don't know why plumber and spark teams choose not to do this and it could be well due to the plumber not wanting it, the customer would be better served if the advanced controllability was utilised.


This is yer working environment not mine, i come from a different environment so the differences stick out, that's not to say that there isn't a shed load of bad heating installions where I'm from.

frankmul

frankmul wrote: »

What equipment does a Declaration of Conformance Certificate that a RGI fill out cover?

RGI certs comply with ET101.

2011

gary71 wrote: »

As a heating engineer I think only RGIs should be wiring heating systems

I don't agree for the following reasons:

1) To qualify as an RGI according to this link "An RGI is an installer who has at least a GID (Gas Installer Domestic) qualification". According to this link a qualified plumber can obtain a GID qualification in just 10 days. This simply does not provide enough time to train a plumber a level that would be the equivalent to that of an electrician. I could see insurance companies having a field day with this if something went wrong:eek:

2) An RGI as a "competent person" would be permitted to carry out "minor electrical works" as defined by the Commission of Energy Regulation here. But wiring mains voltage heating controls such as throughout an installation including items such as stats, zone valves, a pump, boiler etc. cannot be defined as "minor works". Therefore by law this work must be carried out by a Registered Electrical Contractor.

3) Then there is the issue of testing. Take an example of controls wired in a house as per the diagram shown below. Again this is not "minor electrical work" so it should be tested and certified. This means using suitable calibrated test instruments, being familiar with ET101, knowing how to use the test instruments and being qualified to certify the installation. This can and should only be carried out by a qualified electrician.

4) Without a doubt there are badly wired heating controls throughout the country. There are a few bad apples including electricians, plumbers, registered gas installers etc. This does not mean that the best solution is to get plumbers that have passed a 10 day course to carry out electrical work that they can't certify. I mean that with no disrespect to plumbers or RGI's many of whom are very good at what they do.

What we need is:
● Better communication between trades.
● People reading manuals!
● If an RGI is taking responsibility for the electrical controls then he/she should ensure that the function correctly before signing off on them. If it does not function correctly do not sign off on it, simple as.
● In some cases some electricians need a short training course.

Sir Arthur Daley

2011 wrote: »

I don't agree for the following reasons:

1) To qualify as an RGI according to this link "An RGI is an installer who has at least a GID (Gas Installer Domestic) qualification".According to this link a qualified plumber can obtain a GID qualification in just 10 days. This simply does not provide enough time to train a plumber a level that would be the equivalent to that of an electrician. I could see insurance companies having a field day with this if something went wrong:eek:
.

It takes 4 years to qualify as a plumber, does a plumber not get any education in electrical heating controls in a 4 year apprentice at all?

shane 007

That drawing is incorrect as there are no neutrals to the room thermostats, thus no anticipators & therefore extremely inaccurate performance.

CER have also confirmed that heating control circuits fall under the category of Electrical Minor Works as long as there is no requirement to enter the fuse board/consumer unit, for example, there is sufficient or existing 10mm earth bonding and/or the circuit it is taken from is not at capacity for that circuit.
They are basing that as extending a circuit or utilising an existing circuit.

Regarding the 10 day course, GID is no longer available or on its last legs.
It is being replaced by an 18 day course. You must also consider that they are not 18 day courses but 9 week courses where they receive 2 days per week training but they "should" spend the rest of the week studying, revising & preparing with home study papers & questionnaires.
Competent means suitably trained, qualified & EXPERIENCED, therefore if the RGI is all of these, then he is competent. Coming out of a 10 day course, he will not be competent in wiring a heating system, but equally he is not be, in the eyes of the courts, competent to work on a gas installation unsupervised.

frankmul

gary71 wrote: »

RGI certs comply with ET101.

Any wiring whether completed by electrician, plumber , rgi or competent person should comply with ET101.
I'm wondering what equipment is covered by your cert, boiler, ........

2011

2011 wrote: »

I don't agree for the following reasons:

1) To qualify as an RGI according to this link "An RGI is an installer who has at least a GID (Gas Installer Domestic) qualification". According to this link a qualified plumber can obtain a GID qualification in just 10 days. This simply does not provide enough time to train a plumber a level that would be the equivalent to that of an electrician. I could see insurance companies having a field day with this if something went wrong:eek:

2) An RGI as a "competent person" would be permitted to carry out "minor electrical works" as defined by the Commission of Energy Regulation here. But wiring mains voltage heating controls such as throughout an installation including items such as stats, zone valves, a pump, boiler etc. cannot be defined as "minor works". Therefore by law this work must be carried out by a Registered Electrical Contractor.

3) Then there is the issue of testing. Take an example of controls wired in a house as per the diagram shown below. Again this is not "minor electrical work" so it should be tested and certified. This means using suitable calibrated test instruments, being familiar with ET101, knowing how to use the test instruments and being qualified to certify the installation. This can and should only be carried out by a qualified electrician.

4) Without a doubt there are badly wired heating controls throughout the country. There are a few bad apples including electricians, plumbers, registered gas installers etc. This does not mean that the best solution is to get plumbers that have passed a 10 day course to carry out electrical work that they can't certify. I mean that with no disrespect to plumbers or RGI's many of whom are very good at what they do.

What we need is:
● Better communication between trades.
● People reading manuals!
● If an RGI is taking responsibility for the electrical controls then he/she should ensure that the function correctly before signing off on them. If it does not function correctly do not sign off on it, simple as.
● In some cases some electricians need a short training course.

I have no argument with the above(apart from the bit you put in bold:))

Heating wiring is something I take great interest in as I inspect a awful lot of heating installs under the boilers warranty and have done for 10 years in Ireland.

Very few heating systems are fitted as I would want in my home, home owners spend a lot of money having heating installed and as professionals we should give them the best install for their money, when the job is done right then the system works well and there's no drama but when it's wrong I have to report it leaving the customer concerned about their expensive investment and me with a headache.

Heating installs in general are bad so looking to improve the overall accountability has to be talked about.

Below is the syllabus for the course plumbers sit to wire there own heating systems in the UK and having done my Part P I have a better insight in to what it is ye do, it's just a shame I'm to fat for the Snickers they do look cool:cool:

So with the correct training RGIs could become heating engineers:eek:


PartP syllabus: Domestic Electrical Installer (Part P) training covers the 17th Edition Wiring Regulations, plus the following modules:

Legislation & Standards
Definitions and Basic Principles
Design Specification & Cable Installation
Special locations
Mains Position
Earthing & Bonding
Safety Devices
Safe Isolation and Working Practice
Power & Lighting Circuits
Inspection, Testing and Certification (both Minor Works Certificates and Electrical Installation Certificates)

frankmul

frankmul wrote: »

Any wiring whether completed by electrician, plumber , rgi or competent person should comply with ET101.
I'm wondering what equipment is covered by your cert, boiler, ........

The IS813 is very weak as far as I can see on instructions on electrics it's says RGIs must comply with ET101 and there bullet points on cabling, fusing etc but I haven't seen any mention to tools used but that could be me not seeing the wood for the trees.

If this is going to be a discussion about Irish gas regs then I would have to say they are weak on electrics, if you have a look at the Part P syllabus you will see the level of training I would like to see.

Also let's not forget RECI are responsible for RGI so there is no excuse for the lack of clarity.

2011

shane 007 wrote: »

That drawing is incorrect as there are no neutrals to the room thermostats, thus no anticipators & therefore extremely inaccurate performance.

It depicts various devices throughout an installation to make a point.

I have a Sunvic digital thermostat (no neutral required) and it works just fine for me.

CER have also confirmed that heating control circuits fall under the category of Electrical Minor Works as long as there is no requirement to enter the fuse board/consumer unit, for example, there is sufficient or existing 10mm earth bonding and/or the circuit it is taken from is not at capacity for that circuit.
They are basing that as extending a circuit or utilising an existing circuit.

Can you provide a link to support this?

Here is the definition that CER provide. It states:

Examples of minor electrical works include:
● Replacement of an electrical accessory such as light switch;
● Replacement or relocation of light fitting where the existing circuit is retained; or
● Provision of an additional socket to an existing radial circuit.


The above conflicts with your position.

Regarding the 10 day course, GID is no longer available or on its last legs.

I can confirm that it is available and is being run in Finglas at present.
As it the 5 day GIS safety course. On the basis that I am a qualified electrician I am permitted to get my GID (Gas Installer Domestic) qualification by completing 15 days of training.

You must also consider that they are not 18 day courses but 9 week courses where they receive 2 days per week training but they "should" spend the rest of the week studying, revising & preparing with home study papers & questionnaires.

Sure, just like electrical apprentices should study during their 4 year apprenticeship.

Competent means suitably trained, qualified & EXPERIENCED, therefore if the RGI is all of these, then he is competent. Coming out of a 10 day course, he will not be competent in wiring a heating system, but equally he is not be, in the eyes of the courts, competent to work on a gas installation unsupervised.

I am not disputing any of this.

I must also point out that most experienced electricians will admit that most of what they learnt was in the first 5 years following completion of their apprenticeship.

Bruthal

shane 007 wrote: »

That drawing is incorrect as dthere are no neutrals to the room thermostats, thus no anticipators & therefore extremely inaccurate performance.

Them neutrals are only for function of stats. Technically not part of the actual control circuit, so in my opinion, to say the circuit is incorrect due to not showing the neutral to stats is slightly over the top.

But it does look like its a diagram for mechanical stats. It's probably more outdated for gas boilers with having the valve contacts supplied by the circuit L rather than having the valve contacts connected to the boiler control loop.

2011

gary71 wrote: »

I have no argument with the above(apart from the bit you put in bold:))

Perhaps you can provide a more convincing link then?

PartP syllabus: Domestic Electrical Installer (Part P) training covers the 17th Edition Wiring Regulations, plus the following modules:

Legislation & Standards
Definitions and Basic Principles
Design Specification & Cable Installation
Special locations
Mains Position
Earthing & Bonding
Safety Devices
Safe Isolation and Working Practice
Power & Lighting Circuits
Inspection, Testing and Certification (both Minor Works Certificates and Electrical Installation Certificates)

This looks great, but it is a far cry from the RGI courses mentioned in my pervious post.