Central Heating controls

shane 007

2011 wrote: »

It depicts various devices throughout an installation to make a point.

I have a Sunvic digital thermostat (no neutral required) and it works just fine for me.

True but your digital stat has a battery that powers a pcb which calculates the accuracy of the temperature.
Having a diagram like that will only confuse both RGI's & electricians if they do not understand the importance of the neutral within the stat. For example, the cylinder stat does not require a neutral as it does not require an anticipator as the temperature is not affected by external parameters.

2011 wrote: »

Can you provide a link to support this?

Here is the definition that CER provide. It states:

Examples of minor electrical works include:
● Replacement of an electrical accessory such as light switch;
● Replacement or relocation of light fitting where the existing circuit is retained; or
● Provision of an additional socket to an existing radial circuit.


The above conflicts with your position.

Sorry no, I cannot provide a link but you can confirm via a telephone call to the CER.

2011 wrote: »

I can confirm that it is available and is being run in Finglas at present.
As it the 5 day GIS safety course. On the basis that I am a qualified electrician I am permitted to get my GID (Gas Installer Domestic) qualification by completing 15 days of training.

I did state "or on it's last legs".
GID is being phased out this year & being replaced by an upgraded 18 day course/certification process. Qualifying criteria has also being changed since end of last year. So you will find establishments still offering the GID in its old format, but most centres offer this as a 12 day course, not a 10 day course.

Is 813 which RGIs work to once competence is proved covers the wiring requirements from the spur out.


Below is the link to the GID the paper RGI need to pass to prove competence, don't forget a RGI needs to learn to wire and safety check a S plan before a sparks inspects the wiring, rips out the wires:mad: then watches the RGI testing and rewiring the as S Plan to get it to work correctly before that RGI is deemed competent by the sparks.


http://www.rgii.ie/_fileupload/Consumer%20Documents/Info/Gas%20Training.pdf

shane 007

I would add that I would love to see a dedicated electrical minor works certification course/process adopted into the Irish industry for RGI's. Equally, I would also like to have heating controls more detailed to electricians, especially more advanced controls that will be flooding the market in the near future.

The next manufacturer led push for boiler efficiency will most definitely be controls led, especially for gas boilers. For oil, it will be more basic.

Like it or not, most RGI's hand over their electrical part of their installations to electricians, & this can lead to a lack of the heating system achievement requirements being met. If electricians have a better understanding of what the heating system is trying to achieve, rather than the wiring itself, this would be a start to a better working relationship.

For example boiler interlock was unheard of to both plumbers & electricians until SEAI auditing came about for grant works. Now, everybody knows about it.
Why & when a gas boilers enters it's modualtion state when it is affected by certain parameters such as outdoor temperatures, return temperatures, etc. is also a requirement of electrical wiring. The importance of the location of the auto bypass valve is also critical when there is no permanent live/PCB live out to the MV grey wire.

Develop a heating control advanced course open to both RGI's & electricians is the first step, followed by an unannounced auditing system, similar to the SEAI system will bring compliance.

2011

Leaving the discussion about neutrals at stats aside I see no attempt to answer point 4 from post #113:

3) Then there is the issue of testing. Take an example of controls wired in a house as per the diagram shown below. Again this is not "minor electrical work" so it should be tested and certified. This means using suitable calibrated test instruments, being familiar with ET101, knowing how to use the test instruments and being qualified to certify the installation. This can and should only be carried out by a qualified electrician.

Is the solution to leave this work us tested and uncertified?

Sir Arthur Daley

2011 wrote: »

Is the solution to leave this work us tested and uncertified?

Can a plumber not possess a calibrated set of test meters and be competent in using them and have knowledge of ET101?

This can and should only be carried out by a qualified electrician.

This is incorrect.

2011

2011 wrote: »

Leaving the discussion about neutrals at stats aside I see no attempt to answer point 4 from post #113:



Is the solution to leave this work us tested and uncertified?

Both the CER and RECI are satisfied that RGIs are competent to sign off on their own certs for heating wiring installations.

shane 007

2011 wrote: »

Leaving the discussion about neutrals at stats aside I see no attempt to answer point 4 from post #113:



Is the solution to leave this work us tested and uncertified?

Point 3 or point 4?

Point 3 is extremely difficult to answer.
It's a bit like an electrician wiring a gas boiler but does not carry out an gas safety tests on said boiler to ensure all the safety devices are working satisfactory & enact within the specified reaction times. After all once the electrical connection is made, the electrician is putting that boiler "into service" as he cannot isolate & cap a gas supply to remove an appliance from service.

So if the electrician wires & connects a boiler, how does he know he has not unknowingly affected a gas safety control or indeed put into service a defective gas safety control? Hence, it is illegal for anybody other than an RGI to work on any gas appliance. It is also the reason why electricians are one of the accepted trades into the gas industry.

I do get your point though, but without specific criteria set out, we are leading back to a defined electrical minor works certification course that would provide the required training & use of required testing procedures & equipment.

2011

gary71 wrote: »

Both the CER and RECI are satisfied that RGIs are competent to sign off on their own certs for heating wiring installations.

I want to believe you but I can not find a link from CER showing this and neither can you. A verbal over the phone is simply not good enough for something that can turn legal.It can be a lot of mains voltage wiring especially when there is a large underfloor heating system with perhaps 12 zones.

However I can find plenty from CER in writing that defines "minor electrical work". I'm sure you agree that the heating control wiring that you are describing does not align with the definition given.

RECI do not have the authority to give anyone permission to break the law.

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Can a plumber not possess a calibrated set of test meters

Anyone can, but typically plumbers don't.

Are you seriously suggesting that all RGI own calibrated test equipment, have completed the testing & verification course, and are permitted to issue ETCI completion certificates and do issue same?

Do any do this?

I don't know any plumbers that have completed the testing & verification course (I'm sure that there are some, but it definitely is not normal).

and be competent in using them and have knowledge of ET101?

Just from being a qualified plumber and completing the GID (Gas Installer Domestic) qualification? How much time do you honestly think this course spends on ET101?
In your post you are actually suggesting that plumbers should be permitted to certify electrical installations. Perhaps if you list out what this would actually entail you would see that this training for a person whose electrical training is limited to what was covered during a plumbing apprenticeship. Are you really suggesting that there would be enough time to bring this person up to the required level during the GID course (which can be for as little as 10 days) at present? Do you really think that this is a course aim, because it is not listed as one?

2011

shane 007 wrote: »

Point 3 or point 4?

Apologies point 3.

Point 3 is extremely difficult to answer.
It's a bit like an electrician wiring a gas boiler but does not carry out an gas safety tests on said boiler to ensure all the safety devices are working satisfactory & enact within the specified reaction times. After all once the electrical connection is made, the electrician is putting that boiler "into service" as he cannot isolate & cap a gas supply to remove an appliance from service.

So if the electrician wires & connects a boiler, how does he know he has not unknowingly affected a gas safety control or indeed put into service a defective gas safety control? Hence, it is illegal for anybody other than an RGI to work on any gas appliance. It is also the reason why electricians are one of the accepted trades into the gas industry.

What you have described above is part of a commissioning process.
Is there any good reason what this can not be carried out as a joint commissioning exercise?

I have been involved with this sort of exercise at work on a far larger scale with far more dangerous gases (look up SiH4), solvents and various chemicals. We have a commissioning team, not individual so that there are people with expertise in each of the required areas.

In a domestic gas installation with multiple 230VAC controls a "team" of two is plenty, the electrician and RGI.

I do get your point though, but without specific criteria set out, we are leading back to a defined electrical minor works certification course that would provide the required training & use of required testing procedures & equipment.

At present we do not have such a course.
The course that you did is far more extensive and is not the norm for RGI.

frankmul

2011 wrote: »

I want to believe you but I can not find a link from CER showing this and neither can you. A verbal over the phone is simply not good enough for something that can turn legal.

I have it in a email from CER.ie that it is acceptable for a heating engineer to wire from a fused spur for a heating circuit. A REC must install the fused spur.

2011

frankmul wrote: »

I have it in a email from CER.ie that it is acceptable for a heating engineer to wire from a fused spur for a heating circuit. A REC must install the fused spur.

Does the email state that it permits the wiring of multiple devices throughout the installation ?

Please post the email.

shane 007

2011 wrote: »

I want to believe you but I can not find a link from CER showing this and neither can you. A verbal over the phone is simply not good enough for something that can turn legal.It can be a lot of mains voltage wiring especially when there is a large underfloor heating system with perhaps 12 zones.

However I can find plenty from CER in writing that defines "minor electrical work". I'm sure you agree that the heating control wiring that you are describing does not align with the definition given.

RECI do not have the authority to give anyone permission to break the law.



Anyone can, but typically plumbers don't.

Are you seriously suggesting that all RGI own calibrated test equipment, have completed the testing & verification course, and are permitted to issue ETCI completion certificates and do issue same?

Do any do this?

I don't know any plumbers that have completed the testing & verification course (I'm sure that there are some, but it definitely is not normal).



Just from being a qualified plumber and completing the GID (Gas Installer Domestic) qualification? How much time do you honestly think this course spends on ET101?
In your post you are actually suggesting that plumbers should be permitted to certify electrical installations. Perhaps if you list out what this would actually entail you would see that this training for a person whose electrical training is limited to what was covered during a plumbing apprenticeship. Are you really suggesting that there would be enough time to bring this person up to the required level during the GID course (which can be for as little as 10 days) at present? Do you really think that this is a course aim, because it is not listed as one?

I am absolutely saying RGI's carry calibrated equipment.
Flue gas analysers must be calibrated annually & gas seekers must be calibrated every 6 months & possess a calibration certificate.

Most electricians do not possess this equipment unless they are a registered electrical contractor. It has only been law for less than 12 months & most qualified electricians are not even allowed to work on the consumer unit of their own homes.

Not having a link does not mean it's not correct. RECI advertise that for electrical works, the homeowner must use a registered electrical contractor for their works but this is not true. It is only the works on the consumer unit that is prohibited.

The 2 systems both gas & electrics are very similar, both under the remit of CER & since RGI certification process has been tried & tested since 2006, you will find the RECI introducing a very similar process, across the board. It is a nice money earner for them. Heating controls & similar works may well become a certified process that requires a certificate upon completion. I don't doubt that but you will find that RGI will be allowed to as electricians are allowed become RGI's. The 2 are too inter-twined at top level.

Bruthal

frankmul wrote: »

I have it in a email from CER.ie that it is acceptable for a heating engineer to wire from a fused spur for a heating circuit. A REC must install the fused spur.

So we have gone from the competent person able to replace or add in a socket or switch, to wiring entire heating system. They may as well wire the entire house.

I would have thought that there would be at least some rationale with work a competent person can carry out, such as not requiring testing, because it is simple basic tasks they can do.

Wiring a system by running wiring all around the house and making good quality connections, and earthing properly, and testing, may be another matter.

I'm talking in terms of what the cer say, rather than anyone's ability to perform the wiring.

frankmul

2011 wrote: »

Does the email state that it permits the wiring of multiple devices throughout the installation ?

Please post the email.

It states "to the various components of the heating system.".

Bruthal

shane 007 wrote: »

The 2 are too inter-twined at top level.

Cooperation, rather than them and us might help with that.

Bruthal

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

This is incorrect.

So installing wiring in a house from a spur to the boiler, to the time clock, from time clock to the motorised valves, and from boiler to valves, is minor work now?

Its further evidence of the reasoning of only rec,s being allowed connect into DBs as purely being revenue driven. Because clearly the above heating wiring is anything but minor. But the cer don't mind rgi people doing it, because they will satisfy the revenue aspect.

shane 007

Bruthal wrote: »

Cooperation, rather than them and us might help with that.

Absolutely. The 2 trades are very similar & inter-twined so cooperation is key & welcomed.

I see a lot of domestic gas installs and as it stands right now two trades involved in a heating system doesn't work as well as a single RGI.

Two trades fitting a heating system leads to basic installs ignoring the level of controllability modern heating systems require.

Before modern gas boilers had this level of control you could find similar controllability in programmers i.e.. set back programmers incorporating outdoor sensors so the heat source would fire earlier on a cold day to achieve a set temperture at a given time, I have yet to see a installation of that type here other than underfloor.

Let's look at my boiler which comes with volt free links for external controls, it is very common for the volts free to be missed leading to a lack of cable, it is common to put 240v on the auxiliary and blow the board, it is common for a boiler to lack a permanent live, it is common for the potential of induction to be missed.

Now let's look at controllability, with my boiler you can have the it running at lower temperatures incorporating a outdoor sensor for the heating taking advantage of the condensing technology which is very important, the boiler can then run at a higher temperture when there is a hot water demand giving quick reheat times for the hot water cylinder.

The only trade I have seen wiring for the above is stand alone RGIs so they are setting the benchmark for gas heating controls.


For me the question of who wires is secondary to the standard of wiring, I'd prefer to see a improvement in the level of good working practise within all aspects of the heating industry as at the moment it ain't great.

With wiring I'd like to get rid of light switches with a bit of felt tip instead of multichannel programmers.

Room stats that are rarely positioned correctly often turning off the zone while other parts of it are cold.

I'd like to see switchable fused spur being the starting point of a wiring installation and be located within arms reach of the boiler.

I'd prefer if PCB housings got a bit of TLC instead of leaving them loose to allow for badly routed cables which leads to a loss of waterproofing putting the PCB at risk.

I'm not ignoring the good work of the professional sparks as this is a team sport and it's nice to see a tidy job, I don't see them often as I only get involved in dramas, but as I'm the one who often has to explain things to the home owner I do have interest in working towards a quite life which requires both trades having a better working knowledge of each other's trade to give the customer what their paying for.

2011

shane 007 wrote: »

I am absolutely saying RGI's carry calibrated equipment.
Flue gas analysers must be calibrated annually & gas seekers must be calibrated every 6 months & possess a calibration certificate.

I am referring to suiatbel test equipement to carry out the electrical tests necessary for an ETCI completion certificate. Test meters must be able to test insulation resistance, earth fault loop impedance, contunity and RCDs.

Most electricians do not possess this equipment unless they are a registered electrical contractor.

Agreed. But the REC they work for must have this to certify.

It has only been law for less than 12 months & most qualified electricians are not even allowed to work on the consumer unit of their own homes.

Correct, but off topic and has nothing to do with RGIs certifying electrical work.

The 2 systems both gas & electrics are very similar, both under the remit of CER & since RGI certification process has been tried & tested since 2006

Practices since 2006 has nothing to do with what became law in 2013.

Heating controls & similar works may well become a certified process that requires a certificate upon completion.

Perhaps, but I am referring to the present situation, not possible future events.

I don't doubt that but you will find that RGI will be allowed to as electricians are allowed become RGI's. The 2 are too inter-twined at top level.

Apples and oranges.
For me to become RGI take 15 days course attendance.
For a plumber to become an electrician takes 4 years.

No disrepect to plumbers intended (it would also take me 4 years to become a plumber).

2011

Bruthal wrote: »

So installing wiring in a house from a spur to the boiler, to the time clock, from time clock to the motorised valves, and from boiler to valves, is minor work now?

Its further evidence of the reasoning of only rec,s being allowed connect into DBs as purely being revenue driven. Because clearly the above heating wiring is anything but minor. But the cer don't mind rgi people doing it, because they will satisfy the revenue aspect.

So far nothing has been produced in writing to verify this.
I will believe it when I see it.

2011

shane 007 wrote: »

Absolutely. The 2 trades are very similar & inter-twined so cooperation is key & welcomed.

Agreed, but the suggestion is that RGI are permitted to do all of the wiring for multiple devices at 230VAC downstream of the spur. For a house with underfloor heating this can be hundreds of meters of cable and over 20 devices. How can this be "minor electrical work"? It does not align with the written definition.

That is not cooperation.

shane 007

2011 wrote: »

I am referring to suiatbel test equipement to carry out the electrical tests necessary for an ETCI completion certificate. Test meters must be able to test insulation resistance, earth fault loop impedance, contunity and RCDs. .

RGI's are capable of carrying the required calibrated test equipment if need be. Obviously, they should also undergo the current testing & verification course also along with a far more in depth electrical training module.

2011 wrote: »

Apples and oranges.
For me to become RGI take 15 days course attendance.
For a plumber to become an electrician takes 4 years.

No disrepect to plumbers intended (it would also take me 4 years to become a plumber).

RGI is not a stand alone qualification in this country. It is an add-on. Therefore, the argument could be made that electricians should not be allowed to undergo the GID without first under-going a 4 year apprenticeship course. That's pretty much the same argument as yours in reverse.

I have no issue with RGI's only being allowed to wire from the spur. Even the bonding should be done by an electrician & tested & verified by the electrician.
My issue is as Gary's, where heating system electrical components are installed with no regard for what they do. That needs improvement.
I also think better training should be mandatory for both sides so that if nothing else, both parties have a better understanding of each other's trade & the effect of such.

Sir Arthur Daley

2011 wrote: »

Anyone can, but typically plumbers don't.

That is your opinion, of all the plumbers i know i would disagree with that.

Are you seriously suggesting that all RGI own calibrated test equipment, have completed the testing & verification course, and are permitted to issue ETCI completion certificates and do issue same?

I am seriously suggesting that RGI own calibrated test equipment. Keep relevant here and dont be going off topic, an RGI final cert signs off on all aspects of the installationso if you have an issue with that you need to take it up with the regulatory bodies, i didnt make up the legislation.

I don't know any plumbers that have completed the testing & verification course (I'm sure that there are some, but it definitely is not normal).

Do you think a testing and verification course should be part of an RGI training?

Just from being a qualified plumber and completing the GID (Gas Installer Domestic) qualification? How much time do you honestly think this course spends on ET101?

I know a lot of plumbers who are wiring houses every day of the week, its not uncommon for a plumber to both trades or vice versa.

In your post you are actually suggesting that plumbers should be permitted to certify electrical installations.

You are going off topic again, and i am not suggesting nothing.

Perhaps if you list out what this would actually entail you would see that this training for a person whose electrical training is limited to what was covered during a plumbing apprenticeship. Are you really suggesting that there would be enough time to bring this person up to the required level during the GID course (which can be for as little as 10 days) at present? Do you really think that this is a course aim, because it is not listed as one?

More irrelevant, why are you dragging other domestic work into this, we are discussing heating controls. Do you think in the 4 years of a plumbers apprenticeship that a trainee plumber does not get any training in electrical works of heating controls?

K.Flyer

2011 wrote: »

Agreed, but the suggestion is that RGI are permitted to do all of the wiring for multiple devices at 230VAC downstream of the spur. For a house with underfloor heating this can be hundreds of meters of cable and over 20 devices. How can this be "minor electrical work"? It does not align with the written definition.

That is not cooperation.

I presume you are referring to electrical underfloor heating (e.g. Devi) in this case I don't know anyone other than an electrician that would fit this.
A wet system would not have hundreds of metres of cable

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

So far nothing has been produced in writing to verify this.
I will believe it when I see it.

Sometimes more than eyes are needed to see.

mikeyjames9

K.Flyer wrote: »

A wet system would not have hundreds of metres of cable

it sure will..

this is obviously a mistake or a loophole if RGIs are working control circuits off fused spurs

that is not minor works imo

and I highly doubt any of them are competent to test their work

how many have calibrated meggers and test their work?

mikeyjames9

repeat post..

mikeyjames9

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

it sure will..

this is obviously a mistake or a loophole if RGIs are working control circuits off fused spurs

that is not minor works imo

and I highly doubt any of them are competent to test their work

how many have calibrated meggers and test their work?

The question is why does the regulation body not require RGIs to use a megger to certify their electrical work.

It is the same in the UK.

Gas is a regulated industry and RGIs work to the regulators requirements.

mikeyjames9

gary71 wrote: »

The question is why does the regulation body not require RGIs to use a megger to certify their electrical work.

It is the same in the UK.

Gas is a regulated industry and RGIs work to the regulators requirements.

there is no point using a megger unless they're qualified electricians

it takes years of training and experience to interpret everything fully when testing

mikeyjames9

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

there is no point using a megger unless they're qualified electricians

it takes years of training and experience to interpret everything fully when testing

Again meggers are not required by RGIs to certify heating installations.

By your argument newly qualified sparks shouldn't be allowed to certify their own work because they lack the experience to interpret their megger.

And I'm Part P certified so the mysteries of megger have been revealed to me:eek:

.