Central Heating controls

mikeyjames9

gary71 wrote: »

Again meggers are not required by RGIs to certify heating installations.


.

so who's going to IR test the 230v control circuitry?

if the RGI isn't doesn't do it?

Bruthal

gary71 wrote: »

By your argument newly qualified sparks shouldn't be allowed to certify their own work

Many here dont believe self certifying should happen.

mikeyjames9

so not only only is there major bloopers in the RGI manual re;main bonding of pipework

the testing procedure for gas boilers is hazardous and a joke

and now it appears that non-electricians are allowed to wire boiler control circuits and don't even need to IR test their wiring

the CER needs to get in here and shut this nonsense down fast!!

shane 007

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

so not only only is there major bloopers in the RGI manual re;main bonding of pipework

the testing procedure for gas boilers is hazardous and a joke

and now it appears that non-electricians are allowed to wire boiler control circuits and don't even need to IR test their wiring

the CER needs to get in here and shut this nonsense down fast!!

Ouch!

mikeyjames9

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

so not only only is there major bloopers in the RGI manual re;main bonding of pipework

the testing procedure for gas boilers is hazardous and a joke

and now it appears that non-electricians are allowed to wire boiler control circuits and don't even need to IR test their wiring

the CER needs to get in here and shut this nonsense down fast!!

You'll get no argument from me regarding improving safety or testing requirements in any aspect of gas fitting

But as it stands the CER is against your views.


Any plumber who qualified in Ireland and then goes to the UK to fit boilers will have to train to pass their part P which can then allow them to work as self certifying electricians in the UK.

Conversations like this will be interesting as they return with their own meggers sitting in the back of the van.

mikeyjames9

gary71 wrote: »

You'll get no argument from me regarding improving safety or testing requirements in any aspect of gas fitting

But as it stands the CER is against your views.


Any plumber who qualified in Ireland and then goes to the UK to fit boilers will have to train to pass their part P which can then allow them to work as self certifying electricians in the UK.

Conversations like this will be interesting as they return with their own meggers sitting in the back of the van.

do RGIs test their control wiring or not?

mikeyjames9

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

do RGIs test their control wiring or not?

Yes, as per RECI/RGII, CER and gas reg requirements.

Lots of chat about RGI's wiring but id prefer to hear ideas about improving domestic heating wiring like the OPs which is a much bigger problem for home owners.

mikeyjames9

gary71 wrote: »

Yes, as per RECI/RGII, CER and gas reg requirements.

well ok not trying to make a big issue of it

but you said RGIs are not required to megger control wiring for certification purposes?

I don't think that compatible with et101?

esox28

I can honestly say I've never seen any of the three sparks I employ from time to time for heating control upgrades gas and oil boilers, using a megger for testing new or old wiring. All reci and top of their game from their respective areas.

Should they be using a megger for testing insulation resistance?

mikeyjames9

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

well ok not trying to make a big issue of it

but you said RGIs are not required to megger control wiring for certification purposes?

I don't think that compatible with et101?

I'm a City and Guilds qualified gas engineer and have been around/wiring and self certifying :eek: domestic gas heating installations since 1986.

Like esox28 mentioned I'v never seen a megger being used to test domestic heating wiring or seen it being suggested till this thread, I'm not clever enough to tell you why it was deemed unnecessary and I won't argue against any level of safety checks.

Sir Arthur Daley

gary71 wrote: »

Lots of chat about RGI's wiring but id prefer to hear ideas about improving domestic heating wiring like the OPs which is a much bigger problem for home owners.

There are alot of ways to improve, if the electrician on the job wanted to do all the wiring that was permitted could a set of electrical drawings be drafted up?
I know in the real world one cannot expect someone to sit down for hours and produce printed off electrical plans off some computer program but one could manually draw one up with pen and paper, country style nice and simple.
If i were an RGI i would work away on drawings on a computer program in spare time and build up a skeloton drawing that could be easily modified to suit whatever job that needs wiring.

Sir Arthur Daley

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

There are alot of ways to improve, if the electrician on the job wanted to do all the wiring that was permitted could a set of electrical drawings be drafted up?
I know in the real world one cannot expect someone to sit down for hours and produce printed off electrical plans off some computer program but one could manually draw one up with pen and paper, country style nice and simple.
If i were an RGI i would work away on drawings on a computer program in spare time and build up a skeloton drawing that could be easily modified to suit whatever job that needs wiring.

I promise you drawings aren't needed but you will always find them in the boiler manufactures instruction which takes precedence due to gas regs

For a Sparks the first time he/she wires a heating system it is a steep learning curve, manufactures technicians are always happy to help;) but as heating systems are 99.9999% S plans they all will wire the same way.

Most modern gas boilers come with a link for external controls (always check the manual) so the link is removed and you wire to either side of the micro switch on the motorised valve(s), you are just bringing back to the boiler what originated from the boiler so the manual should be checked first to determine 230v or volt free and adapt the wiring accordingly.

You can now buy some very small relays which are handy as they fit within the PCB housing for when 230v is brought back to a boiler for the external controls when the boiler is looking for volt free switching on the external controls link.


Funkier boilers may be looking for the heating and hot water zone valves to be split but that only means you have two links in the boiler and the orange and grey for the hot water goes to one link and the orange and the grey for the heating valves goes to another link.


They keep heating wiring simple so gas fitters can do it:)

shane 007

A question: If you are wiring a heating control system from an existing spur, all bonding is 10mm to the consumer unit, do you, as electricians issue a certificate of conformance for said works?

Sir Arthur Daley

shane 007 wrote: »

A question: If you are wiring a heating control system from an existing spur, all bonding is 10mm to the consumer unit, do you, as electricians issue a certificate of conformance for said works?

If i wired a new spur for say an RGI to continue on from i would do a loop impedance test, and rcd test. They only take a few minutes. As for bonding my views on it is only to bond the gas mains, unless the pipe work is conductive.
I would not isssue any cert for this.

shane 007

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

If i wired a new spur for say an RGI to continue on from i would do a loop impedance test, and rcd test. They only take a few minutes. As for bonding my views on it is only to bond the gas mains, unless the pipe work is conductive.
I would not isssue any cert for this.

Sorry, I meant if you wired complete from an existing spur, as in there is a spur in existence, and you are wiring a typical 2 zone S plan.
There is existing earth bond 10mm from the gas pipe & also from the hot press pipework to the consumer unit.

Then would you issue a certificate of conformance?

Sir Arthur Daley

shane 007 wrote: »

Then would you issue a certificate of conformance?

Sorry took you up wrong, answer would be no.
Take a simple oil boiler installation, should i get out my meggar an do an insulation resistance test on a motorised valve, pump or burner that have came out of a factory? I would say no. I bought a new fridge last week i didnt do an insulation test on it before i plugged it in to verify its electrical conformance.
I could tell you i do issue a cert but i would be lying.

shane 007

So are you breaking the law by not issuing a cert?
The point I am trying to get to is it is being inferred that this work is not classed as "minor works" & therefore would require a cert.

I have yet to see any cert being issued for this type of works. The only Certs I see are on re-wires, new builds & earth bonding upgrades, to name a few but never for heating control upgrades.

SEAI do not have a requirement for a certificate to be supplied or available for inspection when heating control upgrades are carried out with government financial assistance.

Sir Arthur Daley

shane 007 wrote: »

So are you breaking the law by not issuing a cert?

I dont feel that i am anyway.

The point I am trying to get to is it is being inferred that this work is not classed as "minor works" & therefore would require a cert.

Their is alot of grey areas in the new restricted electrical works, this may be another example.
Just say it is, if a person plugs a heating system into a socket with a standard plug top to get power is this heating system now called an appliance?

mikeyjames9

I would like maybe 2011 to comment on this

but it seems bizarre to me that it would be acceptable to wire 230v control cables in a domestic scenario

t+e, flexes,swa etc and not have to IR test any of it

normally I would have bunched the conductors at the 'home run' locations and do some basic IR testing there on the heating control cables
separate to the main testing for the record sheet

I highly doubt if you ring etci they will inform you there is no need to IR test them

shane 007

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

I would like maybe 2011 to comment on this

but it seems bizarre to me that it would be acceptable to wire 230v control cables in a domestic scenario

t+e, flexes,swa etc and not have to IR test any of it

normally I would have bunched the conductors at the 'home run' locations and do some basic IR testing there on the heating control cables
separate to the main testing for the record sheet

I highly doubt if you ring etci they will inform you there is no need to IR test them

So do you issue a cert for your heating control works?

mikeyjames9

shane 007 wrote: »

So do you issue a cert for your heating control works?

I'm no longer registered but was reci for 15 years

No,I didn't issue any additional certs for heating controls on my own work

I am merely flagging up this issue of concern in relation to testing

it seems pretty obvious to me anyhow as an experienced electrician

shane 007

So can I summise that generally heating control works is uncertified works that is really down to how thorough & how competent the electrician is?

If it should be certified as previously claimed, then why is it not a given & why is it depicted as a grey area? IMO, here lies the problem with the ECTI. They have decided that if work has to be carried out within the consumer unit, then it's certified otherwise it is not, whereas in gas ALL works must be certified & the RGI must take ownership of his/her works.

Every gas cert reads "I hereby declare, under my sole responsibility & being competent to do so, that all manufacturer's requirements & all requirements of IS813 have been met for the construction, commissioning, testing & putting into service of the above appliances have been met, etc., etc."

This puts ownership on the works & ensures the commissioner is accountable by their declaration.
Now, if I am correct where heating control works beyond the spur is indeed minor works, and there is no requirement for a declaration of conformance, then it is the HSA that will be the governing law that comes down on me if I am negligent to the home occupiers & not the CER/ECTI. In this case, the CER/ECTI would only be there as an advisory role.

Sir Arthur Daley

shane 007 wrote: »

So can I summise that generally heating control works is uncertified works that is really down to how thorough & how competent the electrician is?

Your RGI installation is a certified works. If i have to wire up an oil boiler with 2 pumps in the morning yes it will remain uncertified, or have i took you up wrong again?

shane 007

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Your RGI installation is a certified works. If i have to wire up an oil boiler with 2 pumps in the morning yes it will remain uncertified, or have i took you up wrong again?

Slightly.
If I even do a minor repair to a gas appliance or any part of the installation it is certified works.
I am referring to a full heating control re-wire from an existing spur with no requirement to work within the consumer unit, so if that is uncertified then really any "competent" person can do it within the eyes of the law.
If I burn a house down or cause injury, then it will be the HSA to bites my ass, not the CER/ECTI.

Sir Arthur Daley

shane 007 wrote: »

Slightly.
I am referring to a full heating control re-wire from an existing spur with no requirement to work within the consumer unit, so if that is uncertified then really any "competent" person can do it within the eyes of the law.
If I burn a house down or cause injury, then it will be the HSA to bites my ass, not the CER/ECTI.

Yes you are correct, one can say the same for someone replacing a faulty shower pull cord switch, can make a hazardous situation if incorrectly done as is the case alot of time.
I know people bang on about how insurance is the key but for a person who may be out of their depth but continue what they are doing just because they have insurance is not right.

2011

K.Flyer wrote: »

I presume you are referring to electrical underfloor heating (e.g. Devi) in this case I don't know anyone other than an electrician that would fit this.
A wet system would not have hundreds of metres of cable

No I am referring to a "wet" underfloor heating system in a large house.
For example I wired a house with 12 room stats, a tank stat, 13 motorised valves, a 4 channel time clock, circulation pump, etc.
Due to the number of components and the cable routes I was forced to take it was hundreds of meters of mains voltage cabling just for heating controls.

I also wired a country mansion. No underfloor heating, the boiler was in a shed about 20m from the main house. Again it was hundreds of meters of mains voltage cabling just for heating controls.

gary71 wrote: »

Again meggers are not required by RGIs to certify heating installations.

Forget about who is installing when you answer this but:

Does this make sense to you that some mains voltage cabling should be exempt from insulation resistance tests?

Would this not concern you at all?

By your argument newly qualified sparks shouldn't be allowed to certify their own work because they lack the experience to interpret their megger.

A newly qualified electrician is not permitted to certify unless they have completed the City & Guilds 2407 Electrical Testing and Verification course.

Despite the fact that I am a very experienced qualified electrician I am not permitted to certify and test an electrical installation because I have not completed the Electrical Testing and Verification course either.

And I'm Part P certified so the mysteries of megger have been revealed to me:eek:

As you know (but others reading might not) an Insulation Resistance test instrument (frequently called a "Meggar") is used for testing the integrity of insulation of electrical components (frequently cables).

I would use it to test mains voltage cabling that is installed to stats, valves etc.
Why?
Because I would consider the voltage (230VAC) downstream of a spur outlet to be potentially lethal.
If a person was electrocuted do not expect the fuse in the spur outlet to save them!
So if the insulation of cables to stats, valves etc. was damaged during installation (or by someone slabbing & putting a nail through it) I would like to know.
Rather than argue about the requirement to do this can we agree that it would be prudent to carry out an IR test on it?

Any plumber who qualified in Ireland and then goes to the UK to fit boilers will have to train to pass their part P which can then allow them to work as self certifying electricians in the UK.

But as you know we have different regulations here.

I'm a City and Guilds qualified gas engineer and have been around/wiring and self certifying :eek: domestic gas heating installations since 1986.

Back in the good old days I legally wired houses, collected a free ETCI completion certificate from the ESB office in Leopardstown. I then tested the installation, certified it and an ESB inspector would check the installation for free.
Those days are gone now.

esox28 wrote: »

I can honestly say I've never seen any of the three sparks I employ from time to time for heating control upgrades gas and oil boilers, using a megger for testing new or old wiring. All reci and top of their game from their respective areas.

Should they be using a megger for testing insulation resistance?

Let me put it his way, if you can you put forward an argument for not carrying out an insulation resistance test on cabling then perhaps it is not required.
An example would be the flex to a motorised valve, why? Because it is 6" long, you can clearly see that there is no damage on the cable, it is brand new, double insulated and CE marked.

If however you have wired to several stats, valves etc. around a house and there is other construction work going on there is a risk that cable insulation could have been damaged even if the work that you have carried out was perfect. So theoretically something conductive may become live, someone touches it .......

Anyway I have been in touch with CER and will report back shortly.

Sir Arthur Daley

2011 wrote: »

For example I wired a house with 12 room stats, a tank stat, 13 motorised valves, a 4 channel time clock, circulation pump, etc.
Due to the number of components and the cable routes I was forced to take it was hundreds of meters of mains voltage cabling just for heating controls.

What kind of a ludicrous setup was that? I presume there was 3 CH zones, excessive having each zone having further zoning so to speak.

2011

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

What kind of a ludicrous setup was that? I presume there was 3 CH zones, excessive having each zone having further zoning so to speak.

A very large house with 12 rooms, each with an independent heating circuit.
Have you ever worked in a house with underfloor heating where each room has its own stat and corresponding valve?

Sir Arthur Daley

2011 wrote: »

A very large house with 12 rooms, each with an independent heating circuit.
Have you ever worked in a house with underfloor heating where each room has its own stat and corresponding valve?

I have, I call them actuators not motorised valves, hence the mix up.