Central Heating controls

2011

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

I have, I call them actuators not motorised valves, hence the mix up.

I'm sure you worked out that my point is that the cabling can be hundreds of meters in some cases regardless of how you name the components
So faced with a situation such as I have described would you carry out an IR test on not?

Sir Arthur Daley

2011 wrote: »

So faced with a situation such as I have described would you carry out an IR test on not?

At that scale you would have if its mains voltage.

2011

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

At that scale you would have if its mains voltage.

My thoughts exactly.

But where do you draw the line?
For me it is when it is not possible to visually inspect all of the cable.
Would you not agree?
After all IR test is very quick to carry out and document.

shane 007

Your normal 2 or 3 zone heating system would not have anywhere near this amount of cabling. The example given was very extreme.

Plus UFH would generally have 12v or 24v cabling to stats & actuators so anything under 50vac would have little or no harm to people.

Sir Arthur Daley

2011 wrote: »

My thoughts exactly.

But where do you draw the line?
For me it is when it is not possible to visually inspect all of the cable.
Would you not agree?

I agree with you there. In the real world say of a small installation like ops case with 2 room stats how many out of 10 contractors would do an ir test?

I fully understand the regulations here and am happy RGIs can wire heating systems:D(although very few do)

I will not argue against improving safety.

I would have no issue with IR testing being part of domestic heating wiring installation, but it's not me you have to convince.

There are C&G qulifications that leave it possible to be trained to a high standard on both aspects of the trades relevant to domestic heating installations.

At the moment the standard isn't very good as there's no accepted industry standard, so the positioning and wiring of controls aren't uniform.

It's the home owners who foot the bill.

Electricians are great at being electricians but their not heating engineers and this can cause it's own safety issues and design faults.

2011

gary71 wrote: »

I would have no issue with IR testing being part of domestic heating wiring installation, but it's not me you have to convince.

But that is not the question I am asking.
My question is are you satisfied as a professional when IR tests are not carried out especially in cases where there are long cable runs for heating controls ?
Yes or no.

2011

2011 wrote: »

But that is not the question I am asking.
My question is are you satisfied as a professional when IR tests are not carried out especially in cases where there are long cable runs for heating controls ?
Yes or no.

Yes as it's my industry standard not to require a IR test.

mikeyjames9

gary71 wrote: »

Yes as it's my industry standard not to require a IR test.

highly unlikely CER will agree with you

there's no reason why a section of the installation should be exempt from testing

a few bits of portable equipment connected to a spur is one thing

mains control wiring extending all over the house is a different matter

Sir Arthur Daley

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

highly unlikely CER will agree with you

If there is no section on an RGI cert for results for IR testing one can conclude the arguement here.

mikeyjames9

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

highly unlikely CER will agree with you

there's no reason why a section of the installation should be exempt from testing

a few bits of portable equipment connected to a spur is one thing

control wiring extending all over the house is a different matter

It's not about agreeing me, I don't do what I want, I work in a regulated environment and my work is certified to link my actions to gas regulations.

Sir Arthur Daley

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

If there is no section on an RGI cert for results for IR testing one can conclude the arguement here.

Or you could just ask a RGI;) as I would ask a electrician if I wanted to know about their working practises/regs which I know nothing about.

Bruthal

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

If there is no section on an RGI cert for results for IR testing one can conclude the arguement here.

So because the cert has no inclusion for tests of electrical wiring, its beyond refute that such tests are needed?

mikeyjames9

I googled one of the UK sites and they were saying it must be tested as part of the installation wiring

if you spur off for garden lites or a shed you would still have to test it

mains t+e's and cables ran throughout the house cannot be exempt anyhow

there's prob a catch-all rule in et:101 covering it

Sir Arthur Daley

Bruthal wrote: »

So because the cert has no inclusion for tests of electrical wiring, its beyond refute that such tests are needed?

The Energy act 2006 authorised the Commission for Energy Regulation ( CER ) to appoint a Body to carry out the function of regulating gas installers with respect to safety on it’s behalf.
Who are we to argue with that?

Sir Arthur Daley

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

I googled one of the UK sites and they were saying it must be tested as part of the installation wiring

We are talking about Ireland here, alot of things are different in the uk.

Sir Arthur Daley

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

The Energy act 2006 authorised the Commission for Energy Regulation ( CER ) to appoint a Body to carry out the function of regulating gas installers with respect to safety on it’s behalf.
Who are we to argue with that?

Back of the net:D

RGI's work is certified and regulated so if you have issues you need to take it up with the CER, blame the rules not the player.

Sir Arthur Daley

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

We are talking about Ireland here, alot of things are different in the uk.

Like electricians not wiring domestic heating systems:D

shane 007

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

if you spur off for garden lites or a shed you would still have to test it

Is that an industry best practise/guideline or an actual law?
It falls under uncertified works so I can't see as being a legal requirement, otherwise every electrician would be required by law to do so, which is rare.

Bruthal

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

The Energy act 2006 authorised the Commission for Energy Regulation ( CER ) to appoint a Body to carry out the function of regulating gas installers with respect to safety on it’s behalf.
Who are we to argue with that?

Well I always carried out testing based on ensuring wires were not damaged during installation, rathet than purely based on what rules say.

No official body, no matter how highly you yourself may regard their teachings, can tell if a cable I pulled in is damaged or not.

Your post above shows you believe if a certain body says electrical tests are not needed on electrical wiring, you don't think too hard beyond what someone in an office says is OK.

Sir Arthur Daley

gary71 wrote: »

Like electricians not wiring domestic heating systems:D

Well one trade is the way to go unless one can trust 100% in the the two contractors marrying together.

Sir Arthur Daley

Bruthal wrote: »

Your post above shows you believe if a certain body says electrical tests are not needed on electrical wiring, you don't think too hard beyond what someone in an office says is OK.

I never said it was right or wrong, i only gave you a fact. In previous posts you have let it known you have issues with restricted electrical works, why dont you consult the cer on this?

No official body, no matter how highly you yourself may regard their teachings, can tell if a cable I pulled in is damaged or not.

If you need to do an ir test on a cable to prove to yourself that the cable that you installed is 100% maybe you should improve your installation techniques, i.e drill bigger holes, use an angle drill, measure holes so they are in line.

Bruthal

Bruthal wrote: »

Well I always carried out testing based on ensuring wires were not damaged during installation. No official body, no matter how highly you yourself mast regard their teachings, can tell if a cable I pulled in is damaged or not.

Your post above shows you believe if a certain body says electrical tests are not needed on electrical wiring, you don't think too hard beyond what someone in an office says is OK.

How many issues have you heard of resulting from not doing a IR test on gas heating wiring.

Until this thread I never linked IR testing with domestic heating wiring and i'v been certifying and regulated gas installation for a while, I also work in a environment where if I get it wrong I'll take a building down or poison a household and heaving seen the investigation process after a death or incident resulting from installation faux pars I am happy my working practises are proven and safe, but I won't argue against extra safety as that would be silly.

Bruthal

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

I never said it was right or wrong, i only gave you a fact.

You asked who are we to argue when certain organisations say no tests needed. I'd say anyone with common sense can see why tests should be done on wiring installed throughout a house.

In previous posts you have let it known you have issues with restricted electrical works, why dont you consult the cer on this?

In reality I don't care either way about restricted works. I simply say its revenue based. I connected my shed to dB a few months ago, and lost no sleep about it.


But to say pulling a house apart to wire a heating system is minor works needing no testing, while connecting a socket to a dB is major works, is amusing.

Bruthal

gary71 wrote: »

How many issues have you heard of resulting from not doing a IR test on gas heating wiring.

How many have you heard of in a full house wiring job?
Are you suggesting then that no ir tests are needed in a full wiring job?

Until this thread I never linked IR testing with domestic heating wiring and i'v been certifying and regulated gas installation for a while, I also work in a environment where if I get it wrong I'll take a building down or poison a household and heaving seen the investigation process after a death or incident resulting from installation faux pars I am happy my working practises are proven and safe, but I won't argue against extra safety as that would be silly.

I don't think I ever seen a problem show in meggaring of domestic circuits. I have in industrial though.

So that means domestic ir tests are not needed so.

Sir Arthur Daley

Bruthal wrote: »

You asked who are we to argue when certain organisations say no tests needed. I'd say anyone with common sense can see why tests should be done on wiring installed throughout a house.

In the last certification and verfication course i did of the 15 contractors 5 of them had dead batteries in their meters, others had not all the leads. I can safetly say if half REC do testing it is a believable figure.
And as for them being qualified well of the 15 that day 2 of them have no electrical qualifications what so ever.

Bruthal

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

In the last certification and verfication course i did of the 15 contractors 5 of them had dead batteries in their meters, others had not all the leads. I can safetly say if half REC do testing it is a believable figure.
And as for them being qualified well of the 15 that day 2 of them have no electrical qualifications what so ever.

If 1000 electricians wire a house each, and only 10 test theirs, are the other 990 correct now?

Sir Arthur Daley

Bruthal wrote: »

If 1000 electricians wire a house each, and only 10 test theirs, are the other 990 correct now?

The ones that wired the 990 will think they are if the bulb lights and if the drill works when they plug it into the socket.

2011

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

In the last certification and verfication course i did of the 15 contractors 5 of them had dead batteries in their meters, others had not all the leads. I can safetly say if half REC do testing it is a believable figure.
And as for them being qualified well of the 15 that day 2 of them have no electrical qualifications what so ever.

This is not a sound argument for not carrying out tests.
If something were to go horribly wrong do you think a judge would accept that as an answer?

Bruthal

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

The ones that wired the 990 will think they are if the bulb lights and if the drill works when they plug it into the socket.

So you believe if a drill works in a socket, that that socket is properly installed?

No surprise then that you wouldn't think tests needed on a heating circuit, once it works...