Clerical Positions in the Civil and Public Service

InReality

Divisadero wrote: »

There is some hope that the aptitude tests might run smoothly as they have outsourced the tests to a private company Saville. See the sample tests by following the link in the handbook (not the ones on the PAS site) these are the Saville tests. They are loaded onto your computer first so connection is not an issue. Of course it could still be a right mess but at least the PAS are not running it. There was trouble with the online questionnaire in 2013 too so they can't really be as surprised as they claim. I'd hate to be a front line member of staff in the clerical recruitment section of the PAS though! I bet they are left dealing with all the fallout and answering all the queries etc.

I think the online tests have been a good example of how outsourcing can go wrong ! PAS have been very professional in the written exams , so think staying in house was worth a go.

InReality

karaokeman wrote: »

Anyone else think the salary scales are a little unfair? I was reading an article in the Independent this morning about the starting salary being €11. I know that mightn't be bad for entry level, but the article states it takes 18 years to reach the top wage. Is this not a very slow progression to go from €22,880 to €36,000 (assuming this is a 40-hour a week job)?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/28500-scramble-for-civil-service-jobs-at-11-an-hour-30444949.html

Yes its on the low end. Esp as headline salaries in the public service doesn't take the pension levy into account. It makes it harder to compare them to private sector .
I thought the scale was over 10-12 years though ..

Tarzana

karaokeman wrote: »

Anyone else think the salary scales are a little unfair? I was reading an article in the Independent this morning about the starting salary being €11. I know that mightn't be bad for entry level, but the article states it takes 18 years to reach the top wage. Is this not a very slow progression to go from €22,880 to €36,000 (assuming this is a 40-hour a week job)?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/28500-scramble-for-civil-service-jobs-at-11-an-hour-30444949.html

If you plan to stay, I guess. I reckon many view this as a stopgap.

Tarzana

400-600 jobs to be filled over the length of the panel.

57/1 chance of getting a job at this stage!

FloatingVoter

Tarzana wrote: »

57/1 chance of getting a job at this stage!

Well...its better odds than the lotto - but I wouldn't back a horse at that price.
That said, I'm not a horse.

Divisadero

InReality wrote: »

I think the online tests have been a good example of how outsourcing can go wrong ! PAS have been very professional in the written exams , so think staying in house was worth a go.

The Questionnaire was run in house by the PAS. That is my point. The forthcoming test will be outsourced and the samples seem to work fine. I agree though that the traditional supervised exams are a far better way of doing things. They may cost more (and even that depends on how much Saville are charging!) but are fair and transparent.

The_Conductor

Divisadero wrote: »

The Questionnaire was run in house by the PAS. That is my point. The forthcoming test will be outsourced and the samples seem to work fine. I agree though that the traditional supervised exams are a far better way of doing things. They may cost more (and even that depends on how much Saville are charging!) but are fair and transparent.

They took a lot of time to mark- and frankly- PAS are as under-staffed as any other part of the civil service- so outsourcing it- even if it were more expensive, might make sense, if they wanted scores this side of October/November.........

PAS got nobbled as part of the decentralisation shenanigans- think a lot of their staff ended up somewhere in West Cork (correct me if I'm wrong). Their core left running these tests- is a skeleton crew........ The interviews are conducted by retired officers who are paid a per-diem to come in and interview for x number of days.

fangler

The salary isn't all that low for the work involved. Its about 3euro more an hour than minimum wage. It's not hard or challenging work. The only problem is for those who aspire to positions of responsibilty might get bored pretty quickly.

karaokeman

fangler wrote: »

The salary isn't all that low for the work involved. Its about 3euro more an hour than minimum wage. It's not hard or challenging work. The only problem is for those who aspire to positions of responsibilty might get bored pretty quickly.

I'll concede its not bad for minimum wage. I was only surprised by the length of time required to reach the full wage (18 years).

fangler

18 years as a clerical officer. There's a depressing thought

Tarzana

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Well...its better odds than the lotto - but I wouldn't back a horse at that price.
That said, I'm not a horse.

My first grad job, 90 people applied for two positions. Tis possible!

Tarzana

fangler wrote: »

The salary isn't all that low for the work involved. Its about 3euro more an hour than minimum wage. It's not hard or challenging work.

For the most part, but according to a poster on this thread, some of the positions are more specialised and require higher skills.

karaokeman wrote: »

I'll concede its not bad for minimum wage.

It's not minimum wage.

karaokeman

Tarzana wrote: »

It's not minimum wage.

It is. The €22,000 rate is for entry level positions whereas €36,000 is the top salary for the experienced workers.

cullow123

In today's Sunday independent it said that applications were back open. If you are like me and have never applied before how do you apply , I have being looking on the public jobs website but cannot find any for clerical officer.

Divisadero

cullow123 wrote: »

In today's Sunday independent it said that applications were back open. If you are like me and have never applied before how do you apply , I have being looking on the public jobs website but cannot find any for clerical officer.

Sorry but it is closed. The deadline for the first stage of the selection process was extended for some due to problems but they are not taking any new applications. They might be hiring EO's later on this year though.

Tarzana

karaokeman wrote: »

It is. The €22,000 rate is for entry level positions

Minimum wage at full time is ~€18,000 per annum.

betonit

fangler wrote: »

18 years as a clerical officer. There's a depressing thought

i suppose you could apply for promotion, re-train, apply externally for better jobs.... if a person is still a CO after 18 years well thats up to the person really

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

betonit wrote: »

i suppose you could apply for promotion, re-train, apply externally for better jobs.... if a person is still a CO after 18 years well thats up to the person really

Anyone who wants to progress has plenty of opportunity to do so, even in the last few years of austerity there have still been competitions for promotion to fill gaps left by retirements. Obviously competition is stiff but if you're willing to be flexible then you'll get places. I've been promoted twice in the past 4 years partly due to the fact that I've decided to chase the promotions and move around. If you tie yourself to one town and rule out moving altogether then it becomes a little more difficult. Anyone who has been a CO for 18 years either can't move due to personal circumstances or can't be arsed. It used to be a thing where people got promoted on seniority but those days are long gone thankfully.

InReality

Fair play doc. 2 promotions in 4 years is flying along ! Have you moved depts to do that or only locations ?

The_Conductor

InReality wrote: »

Fair play doc. 2 promotions in 4 years is flying along ! Have you moved depts to do that or only locations ?

I think that you really need to qualify this- most government Departments have not had internal promotion opportunities of any nature in the last 5 years. A few Departments (4) held promotion panels late last year and early this year- for the first time in 5 years- working their way from the top down to EO level- the experience of which was approx. 80 candidates per post at EO levels (tapering to approx 15 candidates per post at PO level).

There have not been promotional opportunities of any nature- in any location- for the vast majority of government Departments. There have been the opportunities to redeploy at your current grade elsewhere- but not as a promotion.

Cases for promotion would have had to have been sanctioned on an individual basis- one-by-one by PED. They have happened- and they have been sanctioned- but as exceptions, not the rule........

karaokeman

Tarzana wrote: »

Minimum wage at full time is ~€18,000 per annum.

My bad, just checked up facts and I stand corrected. Cheers mate.

The_Conductor

karaokeman wrote: »

My bad, just checked up facts and I stand corrected. Cheers mate.

After the obligatory public sector deductions- its about the same?

another question

karaokeman wrote: »

It is. The €22,000 rate is for entry level positions whereas €36,000 is the top salary for the experienced workers.

I thought it said €21,000 in the handbook provided for entry level? That's roughly €1539 per month or €355 per week for a single person and roughly €1713 per month or €395 per week if you're married and both persons are working.

gazzer

fangler wrote: »

18 years as a clerical officer. There's a depressing thought

Unfortunately it is a reality for a lot of CO's at the moment. With the recruitment embargo and then decentralisation you have a LOT of CO's who have not a hope of getting promotion.

gazzer

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

Anyone who wants to progress has plenty of opportunity to do so, even in the last few years of austerity there have still been competitions for promotion to fill gaps left by retirements. Obviously competition is stiff but if you're willing to be flexible then you'll get places. I've been promoted twice in the past 4 years partly due to the fact that I've decided to chase the promotions and move around. If you tie yourself to one town and rule out moving altogether then it becomes a little more difficult. Anyone who has been a CO for 18 years either can't move due to personal circumstances or can't be arsed. It used to be a thing where people got promoted on seniority but those days are long gone thankfully.

Sorry. That may be the case where you are but I can tell you that it is not the reality for a lot of Departments. Take my department for example. Only one EO and one HEO competition in the last 7 years. The EO competition has 40 candidates for 4 positions. The HEO had 30 candidates for 4 positions. We had 25 people retire over the last 7 years and it has taken that long to do a competition.

There was some competitions in other departments but they are only for staff in those departments and no staff in my department were being let move due to the fact that we are below the staff number level set by PAS

Technocentral

fangler wrote: »

18 years as a clerical officer. There's a depressing thought

18 yrs on the dole is a damn sight more depressing.

gerbilgranny

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

Anyone who wants to progress has plenty of opportunity to do so, even in the last few years of austerity there have still been competitions for promotion to fill gaps left by retirements. Obviously competition is stiff but if you're willing to be flexible then you'll get places. I've been promoted twice in the past 4 years partly due to the fact that I've decided to chase the promotions and move around. If you tie yourself to one town and rule out moving altogether then it becomes a little more difficult. Anyone who has been a CO for 18 years either can't move due to personal circumstances or can't be arsed. It used to be a thing where people got promoted on seniority but those days are long gone thankfully.

It would seem that the branch of the civil/public service you've been in is based in Disneyland - compared to where I am located.

I work with intelligent, hard-working, decent people who have an excellent record over the past say 8 years in the service. But the opportunities for them to progress from CO are very rare indeed. I've seen colleagues who deserve promotion being disappointed again in a recent competition. And trust me - I'm fussy about how people do their job - but these people really do merit better pay and prospects.

mydiscworld

To clarify, the current pay scale for Clerical Officers (New Entrants post 1 Jan 2011) are on pg 4 here

http://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/per/2014/02.pdf

€21,345 €22,805 €23,177 €24,255 €25,339 €26,420 €27,502 €28,583 €29,635 €30,688 €31,743 €32,795 €33,840 €35,471 €36,753¹ €37,341²

The_Conductor

mydiscworld wrote: »

€21,345 €22,805 €23,177 €24,255 €25,339 €26,420 €27,502 €28,583 €29,635 €30,688 €31,743 €32,795 €33,840 €35,471 €36,753¹ €37,341²

Just to further clarify.......

€35,471 is the scale high point.
€36,753¹ is known as 'Long Service Increment 1'- and is awarded after 3 years on €35,471
€37,341² is known as 'Long Service Increment 2'- and is awarded after a further 3 years on €36,753¹ (normally said to be after 6 years on the max of the scale).

Aka- it would take you 20 years to reach €37,341.........

Strongbow10

i've been watching this thread, good luck to everyone who applied.

How does the public sector pension work? what kind of pension would CO's be looking at after say 25-30 years of service?